what effect act?

[TNT!hammond]

Ok, i understand efficiancy and size of an inter/charge cooler effects ACT. I also understand that boost run and timing also can play a part in it.

I was having issues with my acts all day at mallory and i alos had trouble with them tonight. I run a rather large cooler but it seems that on the new rear housing my acts are worse ( possibly just coincidence) I have seen 64 deg tonight on a 4th gear full pull , i was running 20 psi , afr @11.9 , std ignition . I run a boris down pipe ( dunno if this affects sweet f/a) and my filter is in direct cold air and also fed by a 3 inch duct for a fog light .

What can i do to lower my acts, is there a reason mine have changed since going from a .49 rear housing to a .64 housing?Have i exceeded the map of the 60 trim wheel? Or the .42 housing?

Turbo is a .42 comp side housing with a 60 trim wheel, T25 core and rear wheel ( belive its a tomcat core and wheel) .64 rear housing at present and .49 in the garage.

Any help apreciated as normal.

[Mart]

You've missed out the important detail - What intercooler spec/make is in situ?

[TNT!hammond]

cooler is of bar and plate design, its from rally design . Core size is 290x550x70.

Asked on here about what complanies to go for most said stay away from pace , proalloy and all other tuner gubbins and go for a large ebay style one.

Im sorry i cant tell you flow rate or pressure drop across it as i havent tested it.

Any ideas on what companies can ACTUALLY make a decent cooler as the last one i had made cost me 400 quid and didnt like this t28 either

[Andrew Cooke]

are you sure that your intercooler isn't too big?

[Miller]

cooler is of bar and plate design, its from rally design . Core size is 290x550x70.

Asked on here about what complanies to go for most said stay away from pace , proalloy and all other tuner gubbins and go for a large ebay style one.

Im sorry i cant tell you flow rate or pressure drop across it as i havent tested it.

Any ideas on what companies can ACTUALLY make a decent cooler as the last one i had made cost me 400 quid and didnt like this t28 either


Re read the book you got and you will see why you have high charge temps......airflow through the cooler not over it:)

[TNT!hammond]

ahh , no im not Andrew. This is what im getting at.

I dont really know how beeing too big would cause me problems. Im sure both you and Mart must have seen my mad max esk cooler at nd. When buying it i was pretty much told get the biggest you can make fit. I notice your cooler ( andrew) seems not as tall as mine however it is longer , i cant make out thickness. What acts do you get?

[Andrew Cooke]

ahh , no im not Andrew. This is what im getting at.

I dont really know how beeing too big would cause me problems. Im sure both you and Mart must have seen my mad max esk cooler at nd. When buying it i was pretty much told get the biggest you can make fit. I notice your cooler ( andrew) seems not as tall as mine however it is longer , i cant make out thickness. What acts do you get?

I've never seen more than 10C above ambient, in fact the longer I'm on throttle the cooler it gets.

[TNT!hammond]

Chris , i have just re read that section, i can understand that channeling the air would indeed force the air though the cooler rather than round it , i also like the idea of having the area infront of the cooler smaller than the cooler and thus creating a no escape route for the air. I cant see how this is possible on our cars and i havent seen any other 5s running ashroud around the cooler . Are these guys having bad acts too and just dont know it as no one really reads them?

[TNT!hammond]

Andrew . what cooler is yours?

I was getting similair results as that when i ran the .49 rear housing . it just seems asif the .64 has mega heated the act temps. Is this possible?

[Andrew Cooke]

Andrew . what cooler is yours?

I was getting similair results as that when i ran the .49 rear housing . it just seems asif the .64 has mega heated the act temps. Is this possible?

I forget the make, it's on the plate. It's a Focus WRC core, so very efficient/expensive. I don't think the exhaust housing will be making any difference, it's something else that's changed.

[TNT!hammond]

Only thing that has changed aswell is the head was skimmed by 2 thou. Cant see that being any different though. If the AEI capsule wasnt working correct would the extra advance be enough to cause act differences? I know this would show on egt but not sure if that would in someway do it ? dunno really clutching at straws you could say.

Andrew if at all possible when you get 2 min would you possibly be able to look what the plate on the cooler says, If i have to buy yet another cooler id rather spend money on something that actually worked rather than scrap

[Andrew Cooke]

it wasn't Marston

http://www.hsmarston.co.uk/market_motorsport.htm

although a similar company in France:scratch:

[TNT!hammond]

ah not what i just found then, i did a wrc focus search and came back with pro alloy :confused: oh bugger looks like ill be looking for another cooler then :( i wish all parts had ratings , instead of tuner bs, would make building a car alot quicker and cheaper

[TNT!hammond]

Tried another cooler today , was one i had laying around . The results where even worse than the one i had worries with. Only thing that did improve was running temps as its not in the way of the radiator.


Im considering trying a 2wd cossie cooler next as there is one in Andys garage just to see what the charge temps are. Any idea on how effective these are as a cooler?

Also it would be much apreciated if some one could tell me if i was within the limits of the map on my t25 core, .42 comp housing and 60 trim wheel? im not running massive boost but seem to remember scoff saying something about 180 hp on that wheel and at my last dyno we where over that on the .49 housing and now ive gone to a .64 housing could this be super heating the charge?

yes im clutching at straws hahah

[Mart]

As has already been said, swapping the exhaust housing will have no/little effect on the charge temp's.

Cosworth (Behr) cores are v good.

[TNT!hammond]

cheers for the reply mart , im just having a real nightmare getting these temps down. I have absolutly NO problem paying alot of money for a cooler but after paying alot of money for a cooler before that returned **** temps i am trying not to part with any money until i find something that will actually do the job it is supposed to , why cant things be more like ronseal, that does exactly what it says on the tin . where to go next, i had a pro alloy cooler that was cack, i had this large one which is as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike , and another i had made which doesnt like my t28 at all

[Matt Cole]

Tried another cooler today , was one i had laying around . The results where even worse than the one i had worries with. Only thing that did improve was running temps as its not in the way of the radiator.


Im considering trying a 2wd cossie cooler next as there is one in Andys garage just to see what the charge temps are. Any idea on how effective these are as a cooler?

Also it would be much apreciated if some one could tell me if i was within the limits of the map on my t25 core, .42 comp housing and 60 trim wheel? im not running massive boost but seem to remember scoff saying something about 180 hp on that wheel and at my last dyno we where over that on the .49 housing and now ive gone to a .64 housing could this be super heating the charge?

yes im clutching at straws hahah

I ran a cossie 2wd at 18 psi and its total gash at that boost. 70deg charge temps etc. If i were you, drop the boost and see how much of a difference that makes. If at say 1 bar the temps are below 40 deg, then i would guess the turbo is over worked or the cooler is just not up to the job.

[Mart]

Alternative solution: PWR charge-cooler + good sized (volume) pre-rad.

J.D

I think Danny (DK Developments) was selling his PWR c.c not so long ago...

[TNT!hammond]

hi matt, we had a chat at nd . I tried it tonight at 12.5 psi i hit 78 deg lmao cooler is gash i feel. what are you running cooler wise on your 225?

[Mart]

I ran a cossie 2wd at 18 psi and its total gash at that boost. 70deg charge temps etc

On which turbo?

The Cossie guys don't seem to have a problem with stock cores when running 25psi+ through them...

[TNT!hammond]

i have read alot of mixed reviews on the pwr cooler mart. Alot of mension of heating the coolant up on track causing high acts, did you take yours on track when you had it? if so how did you get on?

[Mart]

That setup ran perfectly fine on my old raider when it was on track. I have no ref' act numbers to hand I'm afraid, as it was a while back now, but certainly nothing that caused any concern.

As long as the pre-rad' is efficient & a decent size (or use 2 plumbed in series), then you'll be fine. Big boy motorbike rad's is a good starting point.

[TNT!hammond]

was trying to stay away from charge cooler tbh , another worry on the coolant side but if i have to i will. I know you dont recomend pace but any others you do? Andy if you are reading this did you have any luck on finding out what your core is?

[Mart]

I've never tried any others, but I'd imagine the c.c setup from the old Lotus Esprit would do a pretty efficient job.

Isn't there a Subaru that uses a c.c setup as opposed to a top-mount intercooler (a la Impreza's).

[TNT!hammond]

ebay hunt it is then ha hahah

[Os8472]

I've never tried any others, but I'd imagine the c.c setup from the old Lotus Esprit would do a pretty efficient job.

Isn't there a Subaru that uses a c.c setup as opposed to a top-mount intercooler (a la Impreza's).

that'll be off a legacy then, or the CC off a celica GT4, sposed to be good upto 400bhp

[Matt Cole]

On which turbo?

The Cossie guys don't seem to have a problem with stock cores when running 25psi+ through them...

It was a Saab 9000 HPT T25 unit with a .49 rear. I had the bread bin gt tuning thing to start with that was better at the same boost than the cossie cooler. As i mentioned it could very well be the turbo at issue. I presume cosworths run larger and more efficient turbos than a flogged T25?

[Matt Cole]

hi matt, we had a chat at nd . I tried it tonight at 12.5 psi i hit 78 deg lmao cooler is gash i feel. what are you running cooler wise on your 225?

I think this is the one i bought:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Performance-Slender-Intercooler-540-Series-140mm-High_W0QQitemZ220456489506QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Ca rsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item33543b1222&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


I havent hit 35 deg yet on the 225 setup. Its also down to the turbo i suppose and how efficient it is a a certain boost level.

[car.crash]

where have you guys got your gauges from for reading act temps?

[Matt Cole]

for me just after the throttle body. On the gt it was carb top.

[car.crash]

Sorry I didn't phrase the question properly. I meant where did you buy them from as I am after one myself?

[Mart]

It was a Saab 9000 HPT T25 unit with a .49 rear. I had the bread bin gt tuning thing to start with that was better at the same boost than the cossie cooler. As i mentioned it could very well be the turbo at issue. I presume cosworths run larger and more efficient turbos than a flogged T25?

You geeza :D

Apart from the gash latter revision Escorts (which ran a charge-intercooler setup anyway), yeah, the Cosworth turbo's would be somewhat larger than that Saab unit, hence more efficient (read cooler charge air from the turbo) when running the higher boost levels.

[TNT!hammond]

right , just had another test evening ,

right i swapped the back as ive had enough of lag for a min or two .

tried an old cooler i had, my big one, a forge one from the chap over the road that he runs on his let astra but doesnt take charge readings on. The forge one is the same as mart had for sale here.

right here i go, temp when driving slow was at 22 deg 'c

wot in 4th

old cooler bounced to 114c ffs
forge hit 98'c
my big one hit 86 'c for a ver very split sec but mainly at 75'c still way too hot.

what the hell is going on grrrrrrrrrrrrr

please help , do i need a larger front housing on the blower to give me a cooler charge to start with ?

mucho apreciate

hammy

[Scoff]

it could just be compressor inefficiency

1/ exactly what compressor do you have on your turbo (type, trim and a/r)
2/ what boost pressure do you run
3/ how much power do you make ?

[Matt Cole]

I would try and rule out the act gauge too mate just case.

[TNT!hammond]

turbo is,

.49 rear housing with t25 wheel unknown size im afraid

.42 front housing with 60 wheel

1.3 bar at 12.1 afr 196.4 fhp

act gauge was tested twice , boiling water from kettle 96'c went there as soon as it hit the water and 37'c in my mouth lol.

[Scoff]

T3 or T25 compressor ?

[TNT!hammond]

belive its a t3 but adam may have to edit this.

im really trying to ssort this but its got me at the mo . temp rockets as the turbo really starts to get a move on

[TNT!hammond]

it has a bolt on style front hosing if you know what a i mean so you can rotate it . Dont know if that determins t3 or t25 all my other housings on my t25's are circlip type

[Scoff]

T3 then, so you have a T28. it's maybe not the most efficient compressor for what you are doing then but it doesn't look tragic. 50 or 55trim should be more efficient, but probably not going to make anything like the difference you need.

[TNT!hammond]

any ideas then? could my filter help cause a problem ? i was considering a quick no filter run with a pair of tights over the end on the pipe.

what else could be causing this, its driving me mad. really trying to stay away from charge coolers too, as i see much more powerfull cars running fmic/gmic with no issues

[Scoff]

air filter would have to be really bad before it increased the compressor's p/r enough to have a noticable effect. more likely just that the cores are not as efficient as you'd hope. 75°c isn't as uncommon as you might think though. at that sort of boost or more it takes some serious intercooling to get down to 30-odd °C.

[TNT!hammond]

can you recomend any companies to have one made to do an efficient job of this scoff? pro alloy seem to have the heads up with the ford guy but i have my reservations after there grille mounted cooler atempt :(

[Scoff]

I don't I'm afraid bud, I tend to just play things by ear on my own car, try what I have to hand and so on. can't say I've done much testing. as a general rule though I'd keep clear of the dubious tuning companies and stick to big name brands. did mart mention behr ?

[TNT!hammond]

ok ta scoff, you have any idea on what your acts are then? behr ill give them a search . got a cossie cooler here but not had a chance to test it .

[Spooky]

A charge cooler ? :D

Of the PWR variety...

[Spooky]

Or an intercooler spraying system, a bit like what you would find on a Subaru :)

[Spooky]

A charge cooler ? :D

Of the PWR variety...

:ashamed:

[Lewis]

Secan cores are supposed to be really good, I'm having trouble finding where you could get a core or cooler made up though.

I think Radtec may use the Secan cores on a few of coolers they make, however not cheap.

[Andrew Cooke]

Secan cores are supposed to be really good, I'm having trouble finding where you could get a core or cooler made up though.

I think Radtec may use the Secan cores on a few of coolers they make, however not cheap.

I've been trying to remember what make my core was, thanks:)

[Lewis]

Where did you get your cooler made? Or where did you source the core?

Everything to do with Secan on the web just leads back to £8000 Porsche race coolers...

[Andrew Cooke]

Where did you get your cooler made? Or where did you source the core?

Everything to do with Secan on the web just leads back to £8000 Porsche race coolers...

I came across a surplus Focus WRC core. I think all their stuff is designed for the application, I know they were very helpful in designing a cooler for a friends sports car, but as you say, that help came at a premium price.

[markey b]

prob a silly suggestion, but what about a Co2 spray onto the cooler? i know that it will run out etc, but may help keep the temp lower if used whenever temp gets high

[Adam L]

If your intercooler is good enough, you shouldn't need any ''add-on tuning''.

[markey b]

other option is loose the ACT gauge, out of sight, out of mind... :agree: :laugh:

[Ian S]

Supersonic was using the Forge universal fit which I think uses the Alutec cores glued in a ropey way to the fins, and whilst lapping a track, I forget which, he was seeing 125°C before the cooler and 40°C after it.

Of course he was doing high speed. So that must help.

And, IIRC, the cooler was mounted behind the grill.

Mike Spencer had the pace CC on his 12.2 second car set up. We were seeing 94°C after that cooler!

We couldn't really believe it and I and he checked the gauge many times. It was always correct.

With his big Radtech cooler, the temps at full tilt didn't go much above 40°C and often were below. At low speed running the cooler would be at maybe 20°C then when planting the loud pedal they would initially drop downwards to maybe 15°C for a while!

[markey b]

my ex's one would only see about 60deg with the c/c pump switched off on a PWR c/c and VNT, on a normal day (not hot or cold) charge temps at carb top would be 20deg.... and thats on an ian s gauge

[TNT!hammond]

right more testing results guys this time pre cooler


ambient temp 10'c
boost 20 psi

2.5k rpm 3rd 35'c normal driving off boost
7k rpm 3rd 272'c wot :eek:

2.5k rpm 4th 35'c normal driving off boost
7k rpm 4th 285'c wot :eek:

after cooler max i have seen so far is 92 'c but mainly 70's so im taking 200 or so deg out of the charge, ive been looking at other tests of pre intercooler temps and they are seeing 145 deg on a std stock setup.

should my temps from the turbo be this high? if not please advice

with thanks hammy

[TNT ANDY]

right more testing results guys this time pre cooler


ambient temp 10'c
boost 20 psi

2.5k rpm 3rd 35'c normal driving off boost
7k rpm 3rd 272'c wot :eek:

2.5k rpm 4th 35'c normal driving off boost
7k rpm 4th 285'c wot :eek:

after cooler max i have seen so far is 92 'c but mainly 70's so im taking 200 or so deg out of the charge, ive been looking at other tests of pre intercooler temps and they are seeing 145 deg on a std stock setup.

should my temps from the turbo be this high? if not please advice

with thanks hammy



This seems a little high to me.

Wonder what the pro's online here think:cooter:

[Ian S]

7k rpm 3rd 272'c wot :eek:

7k rpm 4th 285'c wot :eek:

Ooh err, that's pushing the limit for that probe type.

I'd recommend not doing that too many times.

IIRC, the thermocouple wires sheathing is rated to about 250°C. I think the PTFE jacket I used is rated to about 250°C also.

What will happen? Not sure. Perhaps the plastic may go a bit floppy and take a set at a new shape? Worse case would be that it will either melt and run off or evaporate off.

[TNT ANDY]

hammy here not andy, yeah ian i know just didnt expect as high as that , it has gone a little limp hahahah, no more pre cooler attemps today, i just cant believe the readings, also been trying in the air filter pipe, we hit 174 my filter has a direct cold feed all around it and is behind headlamp not in the air box at the mo though.

its sitting at 16 while cruising , all i can think is its sucking in half the engine bay too or heat is traveliing out of the front of the turbo and upto the probe some how , although im a good 5-6 inches infront of it ?

??????

[Ian S]

I'm trying to imagine any way that it could be a gauge error, but can't!

I assume that your earth wire is making a good earth? But even if it was a bit shady, I think the thermocouple voltage would be the same mV above that earth. The voltmeter would also be measuring the mV presented to it at the same earth reference that the thermocouple chip was at, so I'd guess, would still show the correct reading.

I have seen moisture on the voltmeter electronics causing a fluctuation in reading on some of the meters, but not all. I don't know why.

How hot is it behind your alu panel that the meter in mounted in? Have you blanked off the air intake from the engine bay now that you've cut away the scuttle panel? Is the black box, that contains the thermocouple chip, at ambient temp or is that in a very hot area? According to the data sheet, if that chip goes over 50°C then it will affect the reading.

Does you unit have the ambient temp switch to show the temp of the chip?

[TNT!hammond]

in answer Ian

yes fan area is blocked as i run a different heater

no its in a very cold area i would say ambient at max

yes it has ambient switch that reads around 12 deg high of true ambient.

reading are smooth not irratic so unfortunatly dont doubt the readings, they start getting hot when i hit full boost and hold for a while after 6k they are at their worst.

Im starting to become so concerned ive been offered to test a pwr charge cooler on sat for ****s and giggles , if it works i may have to throw in the towel and just buy one but i dont really want one.

I also still have doubts about the trim of the comp housing may return it to adam for a bigger one :)

[Ian S]

Perhaps the turbo is just spinning too fast to make that boost? And the compressor over heating the air?

So a larger compressor might make the same pressure for less spinning and less heat?

[TNT!hammond]

thats kinda what im thinking Ian, i may disconect my gizzmo boost controller and test too as the gain is set high on it and could maybe cause the unit to be overboosting?

[Mart]

should my temps from the turbo be this high? if not please advice

In a word, no :D

No wonder you're struggling with getting a lower intake act!

I'd say you're outside the turbo's happy zone at that level of boost. Just for a test, what's the pre-'cooler temperature when ya at, say, 1bar boost?

[Andrew Cooke]

right more testing results guys this time pre cooler


ambient temp 10'c
boost 20 psi

2.5k rpm 3rd 35'c normal driving off boost
7k rpm 3rd 272'c wot :eek:

2.5k rpm 4th 35'c normal driving off boost
7k rpm 4th 285'c wot :eek:

after cooler max i have seen so far is 92 'c but mainly 70's so im taking 200 or so deg out of the charge, ive been looking at other tests of pre intercooler temps and they are seeing 145 deg on a std stock setup.

should my temps from the turbo be this high? if not please advice

with thanks hammy

play with this:
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

you need to measure boost at the turbo, and then you can work out compressor efficiency. Either way, it's either a measurement error, or bloody dreadful.

[TNT!hammond]

going to try at a lower boost pressure tommorow .

Andy i dont understand how to use the calculator , sorry im not that clued up. From memory with 26psi @ turbo i was showing 20 @ carb base .

I tried these settings and came out with 120 % efficiant? does this mean im past the effective map on the turbo please help

[TNT!hammond]

ok , more figures for you to laugh at.

At the amazing power of 8 psi woooooooooot , electronic controller removed i am getting charge temps of around 50-60 deg 'c .

so , next thing is to try another turbo on her and see what the hell that does :(

also im going to try and get another gauge tommorow but im sure this one is correct, we had it outside the car at one point on the windscreen as we though a electrical fault was causing it when i get higher revs, but it sat at 8 deg lmao

i love this car hahahah

[Andrew Cooke]

in a 10C ambient, 8psi boost, and 60C charge temp gives a 78% compressor efficiency (excellent)

in a 10C ambient, 26psi boost, and 285C charge temp gives a 35% compressor efficiency (slit your throat and drop your still twitching corpse into a sewer)

Obviously, if you're sucking hot air into your turbo those numbers will be different.

[TNT!hammond]

thanks andrew , ill get my knife lmao,

in a nut shell then Mr cooke, are you thinking i need a new blower :)

[Andrew Cooke]

thanks andrew , ill get my knife lmao,

in a nut shell then Mr cooke, are you thinking i need a new blower :)

I'd check 2 things first; are you getting enough air into your cold air box? (1psi of suck makes the turbo think it's boosting ~3psi more - if I've just worked it out right)

Do you have any boost leaks? Test at 26psi.

what compressor are you running?

[TNT!hammond]

i tested my boost run to 3bar . no leaks , tred testing the vac pipes and found no leaks , only the manifold and carb are untested as i have no idea of how to do it,

last night i did run a silicone hose out of the grille like a snorcle , with no difference in results :(

[TNT!hammond]

oh comp housing is a .42 t3 housing with .60 trim

found an old tomcat turbo i have that has no shaft play also have a vnt here too that hasnt been adjusted since i last used it, think im going to give these a test over the weekend too . Thats after i do a leak test, but cant see me finding anything as boost hold fine and builds well even with no controller and just the actuator

[TNT!hammond]

update ,

fitted a t25 which is a tomcat core and front but with a .47 rear machined housing.

went to do a few runs but after only 2 it started raining, i can say the temps seem lower from the cooler on boost @ 18 psi than before but after around 5 k start climbing again at pace to around 70 'c , this is hot but better than 90 hahha.

going to do a few more test tommorow, unfortunatly i couldnt get another gauge and sensor to test the one i have so this may have to wait. I am also worried now that maybe i have high egt temps causing the turbo to heat up and transfering heat across.

Ill check my timing tommorow just to be sure im not running silly advance or something?

[Andrew Cooke]

I am also worried now that maybe i have high egt temps causing the turbo to heat up and transfering heat across.

that's not going to happen.

[TNT ANDY]

Thanks Andy , at least thats off my mind :)

going to try and test the t25 tonight , just havent had the time or weather for it till now,ill let you know whats happening :)

Hammy , not bald Andy :P

[Matt Cole]

update ,

fitted a t25 which is a tomcat core and front but with a .47 rear machined housing.

went to do a few runs but after only 2 it started raining, i can say the temps seem lower from the cooler on boost @ 18 psi than before but after around 5 k start climbing again at pace to around 70 'c , this is hot but better than 90 hahha.

going to do a few more test tommorow, unfortunatly i couldnt get another gauge and sensor to test the one i have so this may have to wait. I am also worried now that maybe i have high egt temps causing the turbo to heat up and transfering heat across.

Ill check my timing tommorow just to be sure im not running silly advance or something?

Remember though the external ambient temp has been a lot cooler over the last few days.

[TNT!hammond]

well been out , its fing freezing outside and my act gauge hit 85 deg on my t25 at peak 19.6 psi, doesnt really improve when boost is lowered , where does this leave me?

going to have to wait for a bit to try a pwr core now :( but cant see this curing it :scratch:

also deffo going to order another gauge as id like to make a adapter hose to measure before and after cooler temps & boost pre /after too , could a huge pressure drop cause trouble? im all out of ideas and enthusiasm thb hahaahah

[Mart]

19.6psi - Manifold or turbo?

[TNT!hammond]

sorry Mart , thats manifold , should state that really :(

im going to try and get some roller time as im struggling to see all that happening while trying to keep the car on a set course hahah, only problem is i will no doubt get different reading on the rollers.