View Full Version : have you got a PH2 172?
Andrew Cooke
10-08-2009, 00:55
I'm running out of ideas as to why my car won't start, the engine is a PH2 172, and the ECU is apparently unlocked. Are you reasonably local (to me), and prepared to try my ECU on your car? Still hoping that it'll be ready for National day...
OK...before we go and try it on another car and possibly lock itself out....
do you have all the earths and feeds to the ECU..???
do you have 12V + at cranking to the ECU..???
do you have any way of reading any data ,,,,,diag equipment...???
Have you checked ALL fuses, even if you thought they were un-related
I'm running out of ideas as to why my car won't start, the engine is a PH2 172, and the ECU is apparently unlocked. Are you reasonably local (to me), and prepared to try my ECU on your car? Still hoping that it'll be ready for National day...
Andrew this sounds so familiar :laugh: and I kept thinking ECU but it wasn't and I am sure your ECU is fine, mine turned out to be a bad earth connection on the 172 engine loom,
Is it cranking over??
Have you got a spark??
If you have these but no fuel pump activation you are in the same place as mine was before, I then ended up running the Fuel pump on an ignition live switch even though everything seemed to be wired up fine the fuel pump just wouldn't prime or run.
I'm running out of ideas as to why my car won't start, the engine is a PH2 172, and the ECU is apparently unlocked. Are you reasonably local (to me), and prepared to try my ECU on your car? Still hoping that it'll be ready for National day...
For various reasons, I'd have thought trying a known good ECU on your car first Andy would be the better way round.
Trev, the car was alive when Andy brought it minus a few panels :D
Is there any significant difference between the ph1 and ph2 ecu ?
I know the ph2 has a fbw throttle system...
Andrew Cooke
10-08-2009, 10:51
from my build thread:
ECU has been converted to 'free running' by ECU Clinic. I'm using the 172 engine loom, and ECU, I've connected the throttle pedal, in the R67 connector I've connected:
white 1 - starter +
white 2 - ign switch position 2 (12V)
white 3 - fuel pump
white 6 - ign switch position 1 (12V)
white 7 - gnd for starter relay
blue 1-6 - throttle pedal
black 2 - alt light
black 5 - oil pressure light
black 8 - CAN-
black 9 - CAN+
When I switch the ignition on I can hear/feel the fbw throttle singing.
The fuel pump/ignition relay doesn't energise - if I pull the ecu line down the pump runs.
I've checked for gnd on ecu pins 3,28,33,67
I've checked for 12V on ecu pin30
I've checked for switched 12v on ecu pins 29 and 66
I have an Ebay elm327 obd reader, and using EasyOBDii software, it connects, and says the "vehicle data bus OK", but says "no vehicle response / connection or power" however I can hear a relay clicking away as it tries to connect.
any idea what's missing? or what else I should check?
Andrew Cooke
10-08-2009, 10:54
the engine cranks fine, but the pump doesn't prime when you switch on.
Normally you can't swap ECUs around as they're locked to the car, this one is apparently unlocked, so should work on any PH2. PH1 and PH2 ecus are quite different, you need the right one for the right car.
Better not get mine out then :laugh:
Andrew Cooke
10-08-2009, 11:00
James, the coils and the fuel pump are switched by the same relay, so no, there is no spark. I have strapped that relay to make it work, the pump runs, but it still doesn't start. I don't know if there are sparks, I can't turn the key and watch for sparks at the same time :(
Think is, my ECU should run any PH 2, the quickest way to eliminate it is to try it on a known good car. I don't know of anyone with an unlocked PH2 ECU, so I can't try it that way around.
Pete@Backyard Racing
10-08-2009, 11:04
have u tried removing a spark plug reconnecting it to its ht lead earthing it on the block or similar and reaching over to turn the key?
Andrew Cooke
10-08-2009, 11:07
have u tried removing a spark plug reconnecting it to its ht lead earthing it on the block or similar and reaching over to turn the key?
I can try, I think it may be engine out to get a plug lead off. I'd have to remove the bonnet too, as I can't see the engine when turning the key.
Defo try the spark test matey as mentioned above, going to be a pain in the arse if the engine has to come out just to test for fecking spark.
Andrew Just another thought, not sure if this is any good but have you linked out the wiring that normally goes to the inertia / impact switch? The phase 1 has it as part of the engine loom, not sure if phase 2 has it or not? the car will not run if it is open circuit.
Andrew Cooke
10-08-2009, 12:08
Defo try the spark test matey as mentioned above, going to be a pain in the arse if the engine has to come out just to test for fecking spark.
Andrew Just another thought, not sure if this is any good but have you linked out the wiring that normally goes to the inertia / impact switch? The phase 1 has it as part of the engine loom, not sure if phase 2 has it or not? the car will not run if it is open circuit.
no inertia switch on the PH2.
Thing is, if the pump doesn't run there won't be sparks, they're powered by the same relay. This is different to the PH1.
andrew may be no good to ya but i have a ph 2 clio sport engine with loom ecu an fuse box.
year; 2003
milage 31000
its had new head gasket a bolts
it has the key
ecu hasnt been unlocked
fly wheel an cluthch also
asking £300 for it
no inertia switch on the PH2.
Thing is, if the pump doesn't run there won't be sparks, they're powered by the same relay. This is different to the PH1.
Just seen the Cliosport site feedback matey and it doesn't look good with the guys whom done your ECU (ECUclinic) looks like every 172 ECU they have touched be it phase 1 or 2 they all seem to have had problems once rtnd (wrong software). Maybe give Paul @ RSTUNING a call he done mine and seek his advice 07966167728 you may be able to send the ecu to him and get it checked / re-programmed correctly and back in time before Nat Day as I got mine back with in a matter of days and mine had an emulator fitted where I think the phase 2 is just software.
Andrew Cooke
10-08-2009, 12:59
Just seen the Cliosport site feedback matey and it doesn't look good with the guys whom done your ECU (ECUclinic) looks like every 172 ECU they have touched be it phase 1 or 2 they all seem to have had problems once rtnd (wrong software). Maybe give Paul @ RSTUNING a call he done mine and seek his advice 07966167728 you may be able to send the ecu to him and get it checked / re-programmed correctly and back in time before Nat Day as I got mine back with in a matter of days and mine had an emulator fitted where I think the phase 2 is just software.
Just spoken to Paul, he's never done a PH2 'immo off', he was talking about fitting an emulator until I said that 'pin 58' on my ecu went to the cruise control switch....
I'm getting that 'I need to convert to PH1' vibe...
Anyone got a PH1 ECU, engine loom, plenum and throttle body? Would I need anything else?
TNT Tricky Nicky
10-08-2009, 20:03
might be worth speaking to f0xy as he, as you kno has done the conversion into a mk1 clio, he has also had starting issues. iirc it was to do with a bad connection when extending the loom
TrickyDicky
10-08-2009, 20:15
I have an Ebay elm327 obd reader, and using EasyOBDii software, it connects, and says the "vehicle data bus OK", but says "no vehicle response / connection or power" however I can hear a relay clicking away as it tries to connect.
any idea what's missing? or what else I should check?
Your OBD11 Reader requires the Engine running to initially comunicate with the ECU or for it to have run shortly before.
hth
Tricky
TrickyDicky
10-08-2009, 20:17
As per others have said, its definetely worth checking earths and connections before delving possibly unnecessary deeper.
you could then try getting data then probing ECU pins on back of plug with multimeter.
:)
If you want to try another OBDII reader out I purchased the one K-Tec sell which you are welcome to try out but again the car needs to be running for it to run accuratly as it needs the ECU to be alive. I think Mr Ashy still has it:laugh:
Pete@Backyard Racing
11-08-2009, 00:45
im no expert but id check for spark as previously mentioned (with the help from a neighbour to turn the key) and fuel from the fuel lines or injectors. maybe put a 12v and earth to the injector loom.
has the car deffo got fuel in the tank?
my moneys on the std immobilizer prob just needs switching off with the key or summat.
Pete@Backyard Racing
11-08-2009, 00:48
did both the twingo & 172 have running engines when u bought them?
Andrew Cooke
11-08-2009, 08:16
did both the twingo & 172 have running engines when u bought them?
yep, both running cars.
Andrew Cooke
11-08-2009, 08:52
any joy young man?
nope, got an auto electrician coming around on Thusday, I took the day off as I've been spending too long working on the car, and my aching bones were complaining. I'm going to keep doing the other stuff that needs doing, but as it stands the twingo won't be at Nat Day.
Pete@Backyard Racing
12-08-2009, 00:18
have u gone through the fault finding section ov a clio haynes manual?
Andrew Cooke
18-08-2009, 13:09
having gone through everything I can think of I'm pretty close to giving up on the PH2.
So, do you have, or know anyone with everything I need to convert to PH1, which is as far as I know:
ECU
Engine Loom
Plenum
Throttle body
Idle speed valve
errm, and probably loads of other stuff :D
Mate heres a link to an F4R manual
http://www.fastchip.nl/media/doc/clio2/F4R_730.pdf
Admittedly it does say that its for the F4R 730 engine but when you look at the ecu page it shows throttle potentiometer which could points to FBW.
You never know theres some fault finding procedures in there as well which might help.
I also think it sounds immobiliser related
Andrew Cooke
18-08-2009, 17:28
Mate heres a link to an F4R manual
http://www.fastchip.nl/media/doc/clio2/F4R_730.pdf
Admittedly it does say that its for the F4R 730 engine but when you look at the ecu page it shows throttle potentiometer which could points to FBW.
You never know theres some fault finding procedures in there as well which might help.
I also think it sounds immobiliser related
I'll have a look, but that's a PH1.
Throttle potentiometer will be the pot on the cable fed throttle body.
mike r5 gtt
18-08-2009, 20:31
if the fuel pump runs but u have no spark then it could mean ur injection comp or ecu are locked.because both use the same relay/wiring.one or both of the computers is not getting a coded signal back due to the codes being diffrent!are u using the clio key/decoder ring?do u have the imob light on the dash wired up-if yes whats it doing?
ive got a ph1 ecu u can have.
Andrew Cooke
18-08-2009, 22:10
ive got a ph1 ecu u can have.
that's a good start, I see that there's a plenum/throttle body on ebay, looks like I need to find a loom....
Andrew Cooke
18-08-2009, 22:30
if the fuel pump runs but u have no spark then it could mean ur injection comp or ecu are locked.because both use the same relay/wiring.one or both of the computers is not getting a coded signal back due to the codes being diffrent!are u using the clio key/decoder ring?do u have the imob light on the dash wired up-if yes whats it doing?
the fuel pump doesn't run, nor are there sparks, as you say, they're on the same relay, and this isn't being activated by the ECU - as stated above. There is only one computer because it's been converted to free running by ECU clinic - as stated above. I don't have a dash, and the lights etc are sent via CAN to the dash that I don't have.
So far:
The FBW throttle is working, move the pedal and the throttle moves.
I've got my OBD communicating, what information there is looks OK, there are no faults flagged.
I've measured the voltage on every pin of the ECU, on the face of it they all look OK, however there are a few anomalies, there are 3 wires going to the ECU that don't show up on the diagram, pins 51,63,64 no idea what they do.
Do you need to press the brake or clutch pedal to start a PH2 172, or 182? I don't have those wires connected.
I don't have any of the PAS, Aircon, or cruise control wires connected, ie 20,23,39,47,48,49,52,53,58,63,64,77,79,83,85.
mike r5 gtt
18-08-2009, 23:23
u dont have to press any pedals to start on clios only meganes!the a/c ,pas,cruise etc shouldnt matter.so the only comp u have is the one with a long black connector that would normally sit between the battery and the pas bottle(on a clio)??
Andrew Cooke
18-08-2009, 23:30
u dont have to press any pedals to start on clios only meganes!the a/c ,pas,cruise etc shouldnt matter.so the only comp u have is the one with a long black connector that would normally sit between the battery and the pas bottle(on a clio)??
That's the one
mike r5 gtt
18-08-2009, 23:49
ok il dig out the wiring diag 2moz and find the coded wires.are u using the key/barrel from the twingo??are u stil using the ecu inside the twingo?the one with all the fuses in that controls the lights,wipers etc?
Andrew Cooke
18-08-2009, 23:57
ok il dig out the wiring diag 2moz and find the coded wires.are u using the key/barrel from the twingo??are u stil using the ecu inside the twingo?the one with all the fuses in that controls the lights,wipers etc?
I think I have all the diagrams, what coded wires would they be?
There is no ECU inside the Twingo, and the key is just that a key, it's a '94 car.
The wires that I was confused about are:
51 engine speed signal (for rev counter?)
63 dual mode solenoid control valve (whatever that is)
64 engine overspeed lamp.
actually, I think the 'dual mode solenoid control valve' is the airbox butterfly thing.
im suprised your throttle body moves when you press the pedal, I remember testing the one on the 182 and it didnt move unless the engine was running?
Andrew Cooke
19-08-2009, 12:54
im suprised your throttle body moves when you press the pedal, I remember testing the one on the 182 and it didnt move unless the engine was running?
my 'man in France' assured me it should do, and it did :)
engine speed signal, is this the only speed signal? I know some of the clios look at road speed via the gearbox and use this for cooling fan control.
Bit hazy about it to be honest, i plan to ignore it and jsut use a rad with a fan switch.
Andrew Cooke
19-08-2009, 17:34
engine speed signal, is this the only speed signal? I know some of the clios look at road speed via the gearbox and use this for cooling fan control.
Bit hazy about it to be honest, i plan to ignore it and jsut use a rad with a fan switch.
It's the only one I have, it would have got vehicle speed over CAN from the ABS computer, but I don't use any of that. I guess that means the fuel consuption computer, cruise control etc won't work :cry:
I did read somewhere about vehicle speed being part of the fan control strategy, but I can't see the lack of that signal stopping the fan working when the engine gets hot. More likely it turns the fan off at speed as it probably reduces cooling.
from what i heard it wont stop the fan from working at all. The complete opposite really, the fan runs 24/7 without it. Not checked myself to be certain about that.
mike r5 gtt
19-08-2009, 21:17
the butterfly should move when pedal pressed.and cooling should still work ok it will just take refrence from what u have got!:wasntme:!does the loom u have have a fuel cut off switch in it??small black connector with a red button that would have been by the pas bottle on the clio???
Andrew Cooke
19-08-2009, 21:23
the butterfly should move when pedal pressed.and cooling should still work ok it will just take refrence from what u have got!:wasntme:!does the loom u have have a fuel cut off switch in it??small black connector with a red button that would have been by the pas bottle on the clio???
no, I think that's just the PH1
mike r5 gtt
19-08-2009, 21:44
yea the phase 2s take the impact info from the airbag comp so if u havnt got that then u may need to bridge the wiring to allow the fuel pump and spark to b activated.
also just a thought but i had one a while ago with the same prob and found that the pins in the connector on the injection comp had been damaged from someone probing them!they were fine to look at and continuity was good but when plugged in to the comp the connection was poor and there was a volt drop!have u tested the wiring with it all connected??
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