non start , pump relay ??

[Junglist]

Hi guys got a quick q for ya
my 5 turns over fine but wont start at all ,

i used to be able to hear the fuel pump if i turned the engine over and then turned the key back before it started up.
Now i dont hear it ,
i have given the relay a wiggle and pulled it in and out , still nout..

is there anyway i can check the relay to see if its working or not ? ,,
could it be anything else ?.
in my haste i have allready ordered a new relay but wont arrive for a week :crap:

Danke

[5alldaway]

sounds like it is the relay then, here was an article on the old website where you can bridge something on the relay, i dont think that article made it onto the new site tho

[Junglist]

sounds like it is the relay then, here was an article on the old website where you can bridge something on the relay, i dont think that article made it onto the new site tho

that article would have been good coz if i bridge the relay and it starts up then i will know the relay is fecked , ( ill have a search )
although the relay is only 3-4 years old now

[IANMM]

all the relays are the same on the car....pull one of the horn or something and try that

[Bigfoot]

If you take apart the relay there is a spring in there I believe, you just need to open it up by putting a match or something of that size in there. It will constantly run the pump though if it does work. so make sure if you do get it started remember to remove it when you turn the ignition off, or you get to the point when it starts flooding the carb of petrol like Penfold done at national day and petrol was leaking everywhere!

[Junglist]

all the relays are the same on the car....pull one of the horn or something and try that

relays not fuses ? does the horn have a relay ?
i dont think all the relays are the same though ,,,,,,,,,, i could be wrong though

[IANMM]

i was getting my head up my azz then i was thinking of the one by the AEI not the one by the glove box :sad2: but all the relays in the engine bay are the same as far as i know.......

[Junglist]

i was getting my head up my azz then i was thinking of the one by the AEI not the one by the glove box :sad2: but all the relays in the engine bay are the same as far as i know.......

lol ok mate , i take it the fuel pump relay is different to all the rest though yeah

[IANMM]

yeah i believe so....never need to change one yet didnt even know where it was...had to look it up lol

[phase i 16 v turbo]

Fuel pump relay has two rows of three connectors, completely different to the rest! As Bigfoot said pull the plate and spring apart and the pump should spin up. To get me home one night I used an odd bit of wire and took a feed from the rear lights to the positve side of the pump. So turning the lights on turned the pump on. Not ideal, but it worked.

[Junglist]

Fuel pump relay has two rows of three connectors, completely different to the rest! As Bigfoot said pull the plate and spring apart and the pump should spin up. To get me home one night I used an odd bit of wire and took a feed from the rear lights to the positve side of the pump. So turning the lights on turned the pump on. Not ideal, but it worked.

nice one,, improvise adapt overcome

[Chris Holt]

easy way to test the pump- there is a blue wire that runs down the side of the drivers door - put a current to it and you will hear the pump work if not then thats the problem.

[Junglist]

ive just hooked a spare battery direct to the pump and it works fine , when i connect it i can hear a clicking inside the car i take it thats the pump relay clicking ,

i tried starting it straight after and it fired up for like 1 second then cut out i could hear the pump spinning, tried it again and nothing again ,,
ill wait till my new relay gets here and try that, :crap::crap::crap:

[Kris M]

bridge the fat white and red wires on the block where the fuel pump relay attaches, the pump should then always run with the ignition on. Will tell you of its the relay at fault or not :)

[Junglist]

bridge the fat white and red wires on the block where the fuel pump relay attaches, the pump should then always run with the ignition on. Will tell you of its the relay at fault or not :)
Kris i will try this tonight

I have just received my new pump relay tried it and it still wont start :mad::mad::mad::scratch:

Symtoms;
engine turns over fine but just wont start , i used to be able to hear the pump whizzing after turning the key back from start to ignition on without the engine starting up.

Ive checked;
All fuses,
fitted new relay,
checked wires at ignition,
checked alarm / imob fuses and wire connections,
engine earth,
i have tested the fuel pump with a spare battery and it works fine ,when i do it i can hear the relay clicking.

what else should i look for , i will check connectios at the pump tonight

[Tillax]

Have you tried looking inside the carb to see if there's any fuel present? If not, pour some fuel (not much) into the top of the carb and see if it starts then?

If it starts and then cuts out you'll know that fuel is definately the problem, if not then it'll likely be electrical or worse.

if it is fuel then you've got the sender unit to check (possible blockage), fuel pump (its making a noise but is it pumping), fuel filter (blockage), fuel pressure regulator (Don't know anything about these but I belive there's a diaphram in it maybe that could fail, I don't know) and finally you could have a small hole in one of the fuel lines that squirts out fuel when under pressure. I'm clutching at straws now.

[Junglist]

Have you tried looking inside the carb to see if there's any fuel present? If not, pour some fuel (not much) into the top of the carb and see if it starts then?

If it starts and then cuts out you'll know that fuel is definately the problem, if not then it'll likely be electrical or worse.

if it is fuel then you've got the sender unit to check (possible blockage), fuel pump (its making a noise but is it pumping), fuel filter (blockage), fuel pressure regulator (Don't know anything about these but I belive there's a diaphram in it maybe that could fail, I don't know) and finally you could have a small hole in one of the fuel lines that squirts out fuel when under pressure. I'm clutching at straws now.

The pump does not making any noise .
i will hook a live up to it tonight try starting it while its on constantly

[IANMM]

have you checked to see if you have got voltage at the pump?

[Junglist]

have you checked to see if you have got voltage at the pump?
there is no power getting to the pump ,, :scratch: ,

[IANMM]

is there voltage at the relay?

[Junglist]

is there voltage at the relay?

i dont have a volt meter only the old screw dvr with a bulb in it and a wire with a clip on the other end.
if i turn the engine over and put my screw dvr tesing jobby on to a conection in the relay plug wich one is the live , or wich should i test for current

[IANMM]

mate.........a digi volt meter is only about £4 you really need to invest it one you will prob find the fault in 2 secs

[Junglist]

right just finished trying to start it the mrs is not happy coz ive been out in the garage all night and am coverd in petrol,!!!!:sad2:
anywho
As Kris sugested i bridged the fat white and red wires and it does make the pump work constantly even when ignition is off , though when i put the new relay in it doesnt work does this mean my new relay is kaput ?

but now even with the wires at relay bridged and pump going it still wont start.
i took the pipe off the fuel filter bridged the relay wires and fuel pumped out so it works, ive taken the carb top off and looked inside with the pump running and cant see any fuel , should it be pouring in ? small trickle what am i looking for.

please help all input greatfully received,, the 5 has only ever broken down on me twice in the 6 years ( clutch cable and funily the fuel pump).:crap::crap::crap::crap:

[IANMM]

Its the white and yellow wire you need to bridge as that ign live not perminate live and i would look at the basics check fuel is coming from the fuel tank first by the fuel pump then move on to the regulator.....(check the pressure hose for splits) then move on from there...............

[James5]

This may have already been checked but do you have a spark? I note the engine is fur ing in the started but the fuel pump is not sounding I would make sure you have spark as the tdc will provide a signal to the aei which will then activate the fuel pump relay.

[Junglist]

Its the white and yellow wire you need to bridge as that ign live not perminate live and i would look at the basics check fuel is coming from the fuel tank first by the fuel pump then move on to the regulator.....(check the pressure hose for splits) then move on from there...............
thanks mate
i took the hose off the fuel filter turned pump on and fuel does pump out is the regulator after the pump ?
the car was working fine 3 weeks ago only thing ive done since then is fit a fmic ,
i will try bridging the white and yellow wires tomorrow but if that works does it mean my relay is shaged

thanks for your help by the way :agree:

[Junglist]

This may have already been checked but do you have a spark? I note the engine is fur ing in the started but the fuel pump is not sounding I would make sure you have spark as the tdc will provide a signal to the aei which will then activate the fuel pump relay.

ok so if the tdc is not giving a signal to the aei the fuel relay wont work , that sounds like a cause to the prob also
how do i check for spark at the tdc please

[IANMM]

are you getting a spark on turn over? so fuel is being pumped but not reaching the carb....??

is the pressure hose from the carb on the regulator..? have you checked all hoses and fuel lines for splits/leaks?

[IANMM]

ok so if the tdc is not giving a signal to the aei the fuel relay wont work , that sounds like a cause to the prob also
how do i check for spark at the tdc please


take a spark plug out turn the engine over while grounding the plug to the block and look for a spark

[Junglist]

are you getting a spark on turn over? so fuel is being pumped but not reaching the carb....??

is the pressure hose from the carb on the regulator..? have you checked all hoses and fuel lines for splits/leaks?

no leaks .
sorry mate im a bit new to this type of problem and not just taking the car to a garage but cant do that hear as i dont speak German..

how do i check the spark ? where is the regulator and which is the pressure hose on the carb ?

Thanks

[Junglist]

take a spark plug out turn the engine over while grounding the plug to the block and look for a spark

Great thanks ian i will do that tomorrow

[IANMM]

follow the fuel line back and you will find the fuel pressure regulator its back left of the engine......

but as its just your FMIC you have changed im starting to think this is either coincidence or you have knocked something off

[Junglist]

follow the fuel line back and you will find the fuel pressure regulator its back left of the engine......

but as its just your FMIC you have changed im starting to think this is either coincidence or you have knocked something off

ok mate ill check tomorrow

thanks again

[IANMM]

no probs keep us updated :)

[Junglist]

i have just checked for spark by taking a spark plug out then plugging it back into the lead and holding the end on and close to the engine block while the Mrs tried to start it , and NO SPARK ,, what does this mean and what do i do to sort it :scratch:

[James5]

i have just checked for spark by taking a spark plug out then plugging it back into the lead and holding the end on and close to the engine block while the Mrs tried to start it , and NO SPARK ,, what does this mean and what do i do to sort it :scratch:


Have a read of this matey,

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=8129

[stuTHC]

It means either your HT circuit isn't working (coil), your king lead is faulty, your dizzy is faulty, one of the HT leads is faulty, the spark plug is faulty or your not holding it close enougth to a good conductive piece of earthed metal.
Have you got a spark at the king lead? Pull it off the dizzy and hold it against bare earthed metal, crank over and check for a spark. If you have one then the AEI/coil is working and the king lead is okay. Then it's either the dizzy, leads or plugs.

[Junglist]

Have a read of this matey,

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=8129

ok thanks that gives me a few more things to try.

my fuel pump is NOT priming though unlike yours was, is it likely to be tdc sesor ( where is it :ashamed:) will it be just a case of swpping it over for a new one.

also there is talk of a relay by the aie , i cant see it is there one on the phase 2

thanks

[Spooky]

the timing sensor is directly above the gearbox/flywheel teeth...

the relay for the aei is usually clipped to the body under the scuttle cover next to the bonnet release

:D

[Junglist]

It means either your HT circuit isn't working (coil), your king lead is faulty, your dizzy is faulty, one of the HT leads is faulty, the spark plug is faulty or your not holding it close enougth to a good conductive piece of earthed metal.
Have you got a spark at the king lead? Pull it off the dizzy and hold it against bare earthed metal, crank over and check for a spark. If you have one then the AEI/coil is working and the king lead is okay. Then it's either the dizzy, leads or plugs.

ok ill check this also this afternoon i didnt check it from the king lead , thanks

[James5]

Pic attached of location of TDC (I have done a nice big red arrow on it)

[Junglist]

lol thanks for the pic james :ashamed: and the arrow ,,,:dearme:

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):)
we have life
found tdc pushed the wires in a bit followed wire to aei gave them a push also along with all other connectors on the aie ( which i had allready done several times over the past 3 days) gave king lead a clean and all ht leads conections , plugs and started first time :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

and took it for a spin for the first time without dump valve on , with new fmic and my first ktec sidey ,, beast to think yesterday all thoughts of breaking ,scrapping cash for bangers were going through my mind i even thought "i should of got a punto gt:sad2::sad2::sad2:"

thanks for all your help guys

sorry for the over use of smileys , your only aloud 50:wasntme:

[James5]

Glad you have it sorted now matey

[stuTHC]

to think yesterday all thoughts of breaking ,scrapping cash for bangers were going through my mind i even thought "i should of got a punto gt:sad2::sad2::sad2:"



Nice one fella :agree: it feels good when you get to the bottom of a problem doesn't it, enjoy :)
Your head must really have been in a bad place yesterday if you were thinking about a punto gt! Not only are they less reliable and more diffucult to work on than a 5, the parts are harder to find and there is less advise and support out there for them. And they look like a punched scrotum :dearme:

[Junglist]

Nice one fella :agree: it feels good when you get to the bottom of a problem doesn't it, enjoy :)
Your head must really have been in a bad place yesterday if you were thinking about a punto gt! Not only are they less reliable and more diffucult to work on than a 5, the parts are harder to find and there is less advise and support out there for them. And they look like a punched scrotum :dearme:

lol yeah im laughin now

Still couldnt find a relay anywhere around the aei though ???:scratch:

[IANMM]

glad you sorted it all out mate

[Junglist]

glad you sorted it all out mate

i was well happy when it fired up ,, thanks for the advise mate