nitrous

[bye_all_c_ya]

ive brought a nos kit which is the best to use it ? with a micro switch and if so where is best to mount it, also where is best to connect into the fuel line for the solenoid

[bye_all_c_ya]

also will the fuel pump give ok pressure for the nos wet kit

ps this is the kit i have http://www.holley.com/05130NOS.asp

[Andrew Cooke]

aren't they expecting 3 bar fuel pressure? if so you'll need another pump and pressure regulator.

[jaffa]

YOU HAVE BOUGHT AN EFI KIT M8??? are u on efi or carb?

[jaffa]

looking at your profile carb....so that kit no use m8...as far as i know...sorry.

[D4WNO]

Oops, to the classifieds it is

[Rob@Backyardracing]

Could you not just swap the solenoid? Also as the kits US you need to check your local nos filler has the imperial fitment, which i guess these days most should do by now...

[bye_all_c_ya]

its uk just that was the first link i found,

[R5GTTRaider]

its uk just that was the first link i found,
:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::laug h::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::wasntme::wasntme::w asntme::wasntme::wasntme::laugh::laugh::laugh::lau gh::rolleyes:

[bye_all_c_ya]

:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::laug h::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::wasntme::wasntme::w asntme::wasntme::wasntme::laugh::laugh::laugh::lau gh::rolleyes:
joker

[bye_all_c_ya]

whats differant? you have a bottle, 2 soleniods and a fogger on most basic kits
which is what i have as long as i keep at good fuel pressure i dont see any differance ??
im going to run its own fuel pump and regulator if needed, which i dont think i will need to ?
if soleniods are not the same can somebody show me a link to what im ment to have

ps every carb based nitrous kit i found used a base plate for the carb ?

[IANMM]

http://www.noswizard.com/product_list.php?id=2

these are the ones i run on a ZEX kit i had a carb plate made to fit in-place of the black plastic spacer under the carb, also i run a progressive controller so the pulseiods work so much better

there is a guy in wombourne who fills mine up as he has both uk and us adapters

if you need any help setting it up give me a shout

ian

[Dave Reed]

Don't see any reason as to why you can't use this kit??? Our cars run at high fuel pressure when on boost. U will need to no what your constant fuel pressure is when on full boost, once you no this then you can select the correct jetting from the table.

I've never done a single fogger kit, so don't no what line they pick up from the stock fuel line setup, but a few on hear have done it so can't be too hard to find the info out? When I done mine I fitted a seperate pump and regulator, but that was only because I went direct port.

Hope this helps fella.

[bye_all_c_ya]

http://www.noswizard.com/product_list.php?id=2

these are the ones i run on a ZEX kit i had a carb plate made to fit in-place of the black plastic spacer under the carb, also i run a progressive controller so the pulseiods work so much better

there is a guy in wombourne who fills mine up as he has both uk and us adapters

if you need any help setting it up give me a shout

ian
mate i may take you up on that offer :)

[Andrew Cooke]

[quote=Dave Reed;78736]Our cars run at high fuel pressure when on boost. U will need to no what your constant fuel pressure is when on full boost, once you no this then you can select the correct jetting from the table. quote]

it's 4psi irrespective of boost

[IANMM]

mate i may take you up on that offer :)


no probs mate just pop down the unit :)

[Dave Reed]

[quote=Dave Reed;78736]Our cars run at high fuel pressure when on boost. U will need to no what your constant fuel pressure is when on full boost, once you no this then you can select the correct jetting from the table. quote]

it's 4psi irrespective of boost

Don't think you'll find it is as it's a rate of rise regulator hence the small boost hose that goes to it....

[Andrew Cooke]

[quote=Andrew Cooke;78746]

Don't think you'll find it is as it's a rate of rise regulator hence the small boost hose that goes to it....

flow is governed by the pressure across an orifice, that 4psi across the orifice is irrespective of boost, no boost and 4psi fuel pressure, or 20psi boost and 24psi of fuel pressure still gives you an equivalent fuel flow of 4psi. You won't get more fuel flow on boost than off boost.

[Adey aka Ewok]

now hush your gums and dont argue

[bye_all_c_ya]

[quote=Dave Reed;78757]

flow is governed by the pressure across an orifice, that 4psi across the orifice is irrespective of boost, no boost and 4psi fuel pressure, or 20psi boost and 24psi of fuel pressure still gives you an equivalent fuel flow of 4psi. You won't get more fuel flow on boost than off boost.

so are we are saying if i t- piece into the fuel line for the fuel soleniod after the fuel after the regulator it should give me correct pressure????

anyone wanna say if i need to use a micro switch????

[IANMM]

Thats what i do with and uprated fuel pump of course and micro switch yes if you want it at full throttle or push button on the dash/steering wheel if you want to go all Fast And Furious Styley.......

im using a micro switch on the throttle pedal (or you could put it at the carb i guess) but mine is running through a progressive controller

ian

[Dave Reed]

[quote=Dave Reed;78757]

flow is governed by the pressure across an orifice, that 4psi across the orifice is irrespective of boost, no boost and 4psi fuel pressure, or 20psi boost and 24psi of fuel pressure still gives you an equivalent fuel flow of 4psi. You won't get more fuel flow on boost than off boost.

Now you've confused me :scratch: Are you talking about before the reg? or the supply to the carb? Cause I no my pressure to the carb is about 30psi when on boost and only 4 off......

[bye_all_c_ya]

what size pressure gauge do i need to check the pressure 15 psi or 100 psi ?:)

[Big Jim]

[quote=Andrew Cooke;78796]

Now you've confused me :scratch: Are you talking about before the reg? or the supply to the carb? Cause I no my pressure to the carb is about 30psi when on boost and only 4 off......

The carb needs the fuel pressure to be a small amount above boost at all times, to keep enough fuel flowing into the float bowl while still allowing the needle jet to function. that means no boost, fuel pressure (at the carb inlet) 4psi, 24 psi boost, fuel pressure is 28psi. Because the nitrous system fuel jet is feeding into the inlet manifold, the jet only "sees" a pressure of 4psi. If your system is meant for efi fuel pressure then it ain't gonna be rich enough.....

[Red October]

So who finally came up with the answer of the perfect carbed nitrous setup?

im also looking at getting an accelerator pedal setup for pod runs etc to keep the big blower spooling and on boost...... I expect the engine to make 230 ish anyway and would only be looking for 25-35hp shot just unsure of what setup to get.......:coffee:

[Red October]

[quote=Dave Reed;79122]

The carb needs the fuel pressure to be a small amount above boost at all times, to keep enough fuel flowing into the float bowl while still allowing the needle jet to function. that means no boost, fuel pressure (at the carb inlet) 4psi, 24 psi boost, fuel pressure is 28psi. Because the nitrous system fuel jet is feeding into the inlet manifold, the jet only "sees" a pressure of 4psi. If your system is meant for efi fuel pressure then it ain't gonna be rich enough.....

ive got an adjustable fpr capable of 7psi and a real time gauge, ive previously read that the EFi boys run separate fuel tanks and pums etc but for the carb with a decent jetting and 7psi of fuel I take it the ph1 pump will cut the mustard.
See top left in pic

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/IMG-20131014-WA0000.jpg (http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/RedOctober5/media/IMG-20131014-WA0000.jpg.html)

[ScottKinnear]

So who finally came up with the answer of the perfect carbed nitrous setup?

im also looking at getting an accelerator pedal setup for pod runs etc to keep the big blower spooling and on boost...... I expect the engine to make 230 ish anyway and would only be looking for 25-35hp shot just unsure of what setup to get.......:coffee:

From what I know. ( been told by the nitrous wizard) the difference between a carb and efi is the ratio of fuel to nitrous.

Carb being 50/50 or as close as. The fuel line is t pieced into the fuel line after the regulator so will have the same pressure as the original all the time. Depended on the jet size will depend on the actual fuel quantity it uses.

All kits are supplied with a 25hp jet then 50 etc

I'm using a controller to control my nitrous intake.
The wizard of nos kits all come with an accelerator switch to only allow the nitrous to come on when on full throttle.

I'd rather it come on then too but with a little more control due to the engine only being a 1.4

My aim is to get my big t25 lag eliminated and hopefully in the new year I'll be able to test it out .

[ScottKinnear]

So who finally came up with the answer of the perfect carbed nitrous setup?

im also looking at getting an accelerator pedal setup for pod runs etc to keep the big blower spooling and on boost...... I expect the engine to make 230 ish anyway and would only be looking for 25-35hp shot just unsure of what setup to get.......:coffee:

Also what's with the air cooler with the pwr cooler? I find mine works really well on its own. I have mine there too but lower to allow the water entry and exits to be on the top.

[Red October]

Also what's with the air cooler with the pwr cooler? I find mine works really well on its own. I have mine there too but lower to allow the water entry and exits to be on the top.

2x pumps and 2x radiators for the cc scott? Is that what you mean?

[Red October]

From what I know. ( been told by the nitrous wizard) the difference between a carb and efi is the ratio of fuel to nitrous.

Carb being 50/50 or as close as. The fuel line is t pieced into the fuel line after the regulator so will have the same pressure as the original all the time. Depended on the jet size will depend on the actual fuel quantity it uses.

All kits are supplied with a 25hp jet then 50 etc

I'm using a controller to control my nitrous intake.
The wizard of nos kits all come with an accelerator switch to only allow the nitrous to come on when on full throttle.

I'd rather it come on then too but with a little more control due to the engine only being a 1.4

My aim is to get my big t25 lag eliminated and hopefully in the new year I'll be able to test it out .

What kit exactly did you get because the "carburettor" ones im looking at are mostly for bikes...... OR is that the way to go maybe?

[Red October]

Just seen this and sent the guy a PM with a couple of questions....

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=291046332764&globalID=EB

This has everything I need I think. The controllers are 300 odd and the bottles are 300 odd too. Anf it looks like you can adjust the jetting to suit.

Please someone correct me if im wrong.:)

[Sparkie]

i messed with NOS a while ago, i had a wizards of nos kit. - only difference with the carb kit is the jet size as mentioned before. - plumb the Y piece into the carb top, mount the two solenoids on the bulkhead, T off the carb feed for the fuel.
only using NOS at WOT, so you need to know what boost you will be running + 4psi for the fuel pressure. adjust the jet sizes accordingly.
you will need a bottle heater to maintain the bottle pressure too.

also where are you gonna get the refills from.....?

[DaveL485]

EDIT- thread ressurection! Ignore me lol

[Red October]

i messed with NOS a while ago, i had a wizards of nos kit. - only difference with the carb kit is the jet size as mentioned before. - plumb the Y piece into the carb top, mount the two solenoids on the bulkhead, T off the carb feed for the fuel.
only using NOS at WOT, so you need to know what boost you will be running + 4psi for the fuel pressure. adjust the jet sizes accordingly.
you will need a bottle heater to maintain the bottle pressure too.

also where are you gonna get the refills from.....?

IANMM says the man in wombourne but that was 4 years ago. I wonder where scoff does his?

[Red October]

EDIT- thread ressurection! Ignore me lol

Sorry dave did you explore this topic recently on another thread?

[ScottKinnear]

Just seen this and sent the guy a PM with a couple of questions....

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=291046332764&globalID=EB

This has everything I need I think. The controllers are 300 odd and the bottles are 300 odd too. Anf it looks like you can adjust the jetting to suit.

Please someone correct me if im wrong.:)

Yes that looks like a good cheap set up for what you get. Also it looks like it comes with two crossover injectors. You'll only need 1 for bhp up to 100 IMO.
You might also need to buy a bottle bracket
More nitrous pipe
And as mentioned a bottle heater. It is worth the extra money IMO.

You would then need to speaks to won or a reseller to get them to help you with jet sizing for your needs. It's a little trial and error to get it spot on.

[ScottKinnear]

What kit exactly did you get because the "carburettor" ones im looking at are mostly for bikes...... OR is that the way to go maybe?

The difference in the carb and injection is this

150c
Or the
150i

Here us a link to the carb one. As you can see it's the same. They just adjust mix to suit.

http://www.noswizard.com/car-nitrous-kits/wet-car-nitrous-kits/carburettored-wet-systems/sb150c.html

[ScottKinnear]

2x pumps and 2x radiators for the cc scott? Is that what you mean?

Kind of plus you run the charge cooler into an intercooler. As I mentioned my barrel charge cooler works really well with out this.

[Red October]

Yes that looks like a good cheap set up for what you get. Also it looks like it comes with two crossover injectors. You'll only need 1 for bhp up to 100 IMO.
You might also need to buy a bottle bracket
More nitrous pipe
And as mentioned a bottle heater. It is worth the extra money IMO.

You would then need to speaks to won or a reseller to get them to help you with jet sizing for your needs. It's a little trial and error to get it spot on.

Made him an offer anyway, see what he says. The nos is for after the re-re-build is run in and the nodiz and custom T28 is fitted.

[Red October]

Kind of plus you run the charge cooler into an intercooler. As I mentioned my barrel charge cooler works really well with out this.

Erm.......

I had peeps I trust telling me to go big FMIC only or get a cossie one and play it by ear.....

I had peeps I don't know but value their knowledge saying the CC would cut the ice on its own.....

I had peeps telling me doing both would carb freeze!!!

So........ the CC goes on a switch so it could be left to heat up in case of freeze and I can always but cardboard or fashion a Perspex over guard for the FMIC if its too cold.

As sparkie has said if the big fan is on the coolant clio rad it makes everything uber cool on its own.

I suppose ive got 3 ways of cooling the engine and the boost temps which can only be a good thing as variety is the spice of life!

[andybond]

You are almost teeing yourself up for full EFI conversion Ash. They will love the ultra low temps and you wont get carb freeze !

[Red October]

You are almost teeing yourself up for full EFI conversion Ash. They will love the ultra low temps and you wont get carb freeze !

To be fair andy all I need is one of them efi manifolds the irish chap is making, I think there is one for sale still on classifieds? Need to see if the nodiz is as good as the other usual standalones, I have the trigger wheel welded on and one of scoffs sensor and brackets.

Being the staunch carb traditionalist I am (ignore the nodiz) I wanna see if I can have some kind of title for the fastest carb'ed car as I don't have the millions scoff and glen had to compete at the level they are at. Being a somewhat newcomer to the scene with different ideas may provide more positive results on the carb, other than that bin it and get some injectors!!!!

ONCE that's all sorted time to uprate the gearbox and driveshafts lmao money money money!

[DaveL485]

Sorry dave did you explore this topic recently on another thread?

No I responded to the OP, but it's 4 years old so deleted it.

I'm assembling a direct port kit to pop on to my forced induction throttle body conversion for the 21, looking at the carb kit i'd use a swirl pot with lift pump, feed the carb from the swirl with the OE pump looping back the return to the swirl pot, then use an EFI pump and reg set at 2.5 to 3 bar operating on the Nitrous arm switch, again looping back to the swirl pot. This keeps the fuel pressure nice and high for the nitrous fogger, independant system only operating when the NoS system is armed.

Overkill?

[Red October]

No I responded to the OP, but it's 4 years old so deleted it.

I'm assembling a direct port kit to pop on to my forced induction throttle body conversion for the 21, looking at the carb kit i'd use a swirl pot with lift pump, feed the carb from the swirl with the OE pump looping back the return to the swirl pot, then use an EFI pump and reg set at 2.5 to 3 bar operating on the Nitrous arm switch, again looping back to the swirl pot. This keeps the fuel pressure nice and high for the nitrous fogger, independant system only operating when the NoS system is armed.

Overkill?

Not really you'll be doing it right that way IMO as your ticking all the boxes of possible failures being eliminated with that setup, id need to see what the crack is with mine at full boost in respect to the pressure drop. If you ram 7psi through it and recirculate it maybe would work but like ive said id have to monitor the fpr guage and fine tune! With sparkie involved and his already extensive knowledge of nos im sure a kit can be fashioned for less than 500.

Again like sparkie has said to me before setting it up is easy but finding a nitrous refill company is the difficult part! :laugh::sad:

[Brigsy]

To be fair andy all I need is one of them efi manifolds the irish chap is making, I think there is one for sale still on classifieds? Need to see if the nodiz is as good as the other usual standalones, I have the trigger wheel welded on and one of scoffs sensor and brackets.

Being the staunch carb traditionalist I am (ignore the nodiz) I wanna see if I can have some kind of title for the fastest carb'ed car as I don't have the millions scoff and glen had to compete at the level they are at. Being a somewhat newcomer to the scene with different ideas may provide more positive results on the carb, other than that bin it and get some injectors!!!!

ONCE that's all sorted time to uprate the gearbox and driveshafts lmao money money money!

Need to beat this to be fastest carb c1j. On par with glens old terminal speeds. Feck knows how they managed to get so much power

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UOyomyEakMI

[DaveL485]

id need to see what the crack is with mine at full boost

Probably a liner :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[ScottKinnear]

No I responded to the OP, but it's 4 years old so deleted it.

I'm assembling a direct port kit to pop on to my forced induction throttle body conversion for the 21, looking at the carb kit i'd use a swirl pot with lift pump, feed the carb from the swirl with the OE pump looping back the return to the swirl pot, then use an EFI pump and reg set at 2.5 to 3 bar operating on the Nitrous arm switch, again looping back to the swirl pot. This keeps the fuel pressure nice and high for the nitrous fogger, independant system only operating when the NoS system is armed.

Overkill?

For 25 or 50hp it is :)

[Scoff]

To be fair andy all I need is one of them efi manifolds the irish chap is making, I think there is one for sale still on classifieds? Need to see if the nodiz is as good as the other usual standalones, I have the trigger wheel welded on and one of scoffs sensor and brackets.

Being the staunch carb traditionalist I am (ignore the nodiz) I wanna see if I can have some kind of title for the fastest carb'ed car as I don't have the millions scoff and glen had to compete at the level they are at. Being a somewhat newcomer to the scene with different ideas may provide more positive results on the carb, other than that bin it and get some injectors!!!!

ONCE that's all sorted time to uprate the gearbox and driveshafts lmao money money money!

We probably didn't spend as much as you think :ashamed: In Glenns case I guess the turbo and EFI were most expensive. Mine was pretty cheap too apart from the internals and turbo say. The rest is time and effort.

The difficulty with the carb is getting enough fuel in at high boost. It's a noticable restriction above 240hp or so too but it's been proven a couple of times that they will flow quite a bit more if you push. I think Gianni is mostly managing it with nitrous. A lot of it. To do the same you should install a seperate EFI fuel circuit with regulator. You'll need additional fuel injectors to run the carb much past 250hp. The same circuit can supply your nitrous system too. I think thats going to be the best way to go if you want to keep the carb.

Getting the engine to respond to a lot of boost and nitrous is the next challenge. You should look at putting in bigger exhaust valves and improving the exhaust ports. With nitrous you have a lot more exhaust gas to worry about. Leave the inlets alone. The choice of cam is important too. As off the shelf items go the BP270 is what you should be looking at, with a vernier. Some retard on the cam can make some shocking increases in HP at the expense of low RPM response.

Good luck :)

[Ian S]

Would that be due to the exhaust valve being open later to vent more combustion material?

Or the inlet open later to fill more nitrous?

Is is the mixture with nitrous oxide in it more dense than normal petrol and air mixture?

[DaveL485]

You should look at putting in bigger exhaust valves and improving the exhaust ports. With nitrous you have a lot more exhaust gas to worry about. Leave the inlets alone.

Hmmm. Interesting. I sit in the other camp with regards to valves....surely the inlet is the biggest benefit by far? Getting the exhaust gas out is nowhere near as hard as getting the inlet gas in, for starters exhaust ports flow in the opposite direction to inlets... a large part of what determines the flow efficiency of inlet ports themselves is how well the port guides the air to fully utilise the entire circumference of the valve seat. In nearly all cases this can't be achieved because air travelling at high speed can't get round the short side bend in the port and just skips across the back of the valve head and tries to exit through the long side of the valve seat.
The exhaust port doesn’t fall foul of this…. The air already uses the full circumference of the valve seat by virtue of the fact it's going into the seat from all round the combustion chamber anyway. Provided the port itself is big enough then almost any design of exhaust port will flow at a good efficiency because the valve (seat) is being used effectively. Even the shape of the short side bend is not that critical because it's not having to guide the gas IN to a seat - all it's doing is guiding the gas into the port.

TL : DR- Exhaust valves work better, naturally. Hence inlet improvements being something I would prefer to focus on.

I would be very much interested to hear any rebuttle on the above, seeing as, y'know, I chucked three and a half thousand quid at a cylinder head that you're going to tune for me based on my "inlets are best" theory :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[andybond]

Surely ( I know you are called Dave ) the turbos main job is to compress the gas going into the turbo by means of the amount of exhaust gasses coming out? To gain the force you need the gas to escape at maximum velocity and cleanly out of the exhaust side of the engine.

Faster / cleaner the gasses escape means a more efficient throughput of gas on the inlet side ?

If you smooth out the inlet side then you get "fuel puddle" , you want a bit of rough ( fnar fnar ) for fuel atomisation .. I am with Scoff on this one.

[Dave Reed]

Maybe in a n/a engine, but with nitrous you'll benefit much more opening up the exhaust side.

[kentraider]

Maybe in a n/a engine, but with nitrous you'll benefit much more opening up the exhaust side.

:agree::agree:
faster the gas leaves ...faster it can come in :smokin:

[DaveL485]

:agree::agree:
faster the gas leaves ...faster it can come in :smokin:

Not if the inlet system is restricting it.

[andybond]

Not if the inlet system is restricting it.

That must surely only be relevant in the top end ( in terms of power ) though ? The limit will be the velocity of the gasses leaving in turn speeding up the gasses being shoved back in ?

[andybond]

I love this place !!!


Just for the record Matt , whats your take on Nitrous ? All work on exhaust and none inlet ? Or bit of a tickle on both sides ?

[DaveL485]

There may be an advantage in a smaller inlet valve as the gas velocity across it will be higher and so convey more of the dense nitrous in less time.



Incorrect. Common assumption, but you're wrong.

The port gas speed doesn't alter (significantly) when an engine has forced induction. If the manifold pressure doubles then so does the gas density and therefore the mass flow and power. The speed stays the same.

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Me? Nitrous.....?
No No No!

[andybond]

Me? Nitrous.....?
No No No!

Maybe?

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Nah, sorry.
Never a big fan of the stuff.
LOL!

[andybond]

Nah, sorry.
Never a big fan of the stuff.
LOL!

Same ! :D

Cheating gas not nitrous

[DaveL485]

Same ! :D

Cheating gas not nitrous

If NoS is cheating, so are bigger injectors and a FMIC....at the end of the day they do the same thing....cool the charge and increase combustion materials :p

[Red October]

Ive got bigger valves in he head and a valvetrain to take the hammer.

[Dave Reed]

I wonder how many actually know where nitrous came from 😉

Without google lol

[The new Bill J]

I wonder how many actually know where nitrous came from 😉



The tank in the boot :cartman:

[DaveL485]

I wonder how many actually know where nitrous came from 😉

Without google lol

Drag racing? (technology wise, I assume thats what you mean)

EDIT: I googled...I knew about the use in *that* but I didn't realise it was the origin of it! :agree:

[TopCat]

Nope.. :D

I know it's laughing gas- used by dentists and GP's wasn't it?

[Dave Reed]

I know it's laughing gas- used by dentists and GP's wasn't it?

It is the same stuff yes (although much more pure, works even better too) but not where it came from in the use of a combustion engine.. (Which I should really of said in the first question).

[The new Bill J]

WW2 fighter planes used it.

[ScottKinnear]

I seen nitrous for the first time in quantum leap.

Wanted it ever since.

Also I read Dave's post and I didn't think it was obnoxious at all. Ian you went over board and should just apologies on this one. No way for an admin to act imo

[TNT ANDY]

Petrol is cheating - them darn horses don't stand a chance :laugh:

FFS - if someone want's to have a go - help em out people. If chasing numbers is your game - go for it. FFS some people try to spend all day trying to get tiny white balls in 18 holes.

And then there's golf!

[Slammed 66]

Boring bits removed

[ScottKinnear]

:agree:
If NoS is cheating, so are bigger injectors and a FMIC....at the end of the day they do the same thing....cool the charge and increase combustion materials :p

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

I've always thought of nitrous used in a road car a bit too 'fast and furious'.

If it's used in top end 1/4mile drag runs to help push it over the line a millisecond quicker than the next guy, then I can only think of big block yank machinery.....

If someone wants to fit it to a wheezy 1.4 pushrod engined tin can (without sounding too nasty to the R5gtt) then let them go ahead, it's not my engine rebuild I'll be paying for/moaning about.......that's just my thoughts.
It seems like a sledgehammer/nut thing to me.

[TopCat]

I've always thought of nitrous used in a road car a bit too 'fast and furious'.

If it's used in top end 1/4mile drag runs to help push it over the line a millisecond quicker than the next guy, then I can only think of big block yank machinery.....

If someone wants to fit it to a wheezy 1.4 pushrod engined tin can (without sounding too nasty to the R5gtt) then let them go ahead, it's not my engine rebuild I'll be paying for/moaning about.......that's just my thoughts.
It seems like a sledgehammer/nut thing to me.

I'm with u on this one. Same as Efi on a c1j.

[Dave Reed]

Lol Matt.. A common misunderstanding with nitrous, why would u need to rebuild the engine? If the tune is good then it's fine to use. I only ever had one mishap and that was pushing the standard liners too much/possible tune.. That was an extra 100hp mind :)

Why you ask to out in on a 1.4 to go fast is the answer.. Also it's not used at top end only :)

[Dave Reed]

I'm with u on this one. Same as Efi on a c1j.

Ok if you like going slow with an oe car, poor setup for making it go quick ;)

[TopCat]

Ok if you like going slow with an oe car, poor setup for making it go quick ;)

Lol, I'd sooner spend the money on fitting a turbo charged 172 lump rather than spruce up the c1j.

:burnrubber:

[Dave Reed]

Lol, I'd sooner spend the money on fitting a turbo charged 172 lump rather than spruce up the c1j.

:burnrubber:

Lol fair point, but then the heart of the car is gone.. And believe me there's no reaction like telling people you've only got a 1.4 ;)

[TopCat]

Lol fair point, but then the heart of the car is gone.. And believe me there's no reaction like telling people you've only got a 1.4 ;)

Do you run Efi mate? Be good to see a set up in the flesh!

[Dave Reed]

Do you run Efi mate? Be good to see a set up in the flesh!

Used to.. Sold up over a year ago now :)

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Lol Matt.. A common misunderstanding with nitrous, why would u need to rebuild the engine? If the tune is good then it's fine to use. I only ever had one mishap and that was pushing the standard liners too much/possible tune.. That was an extra 100hp mind :)

Why you ask to out in on a 1.4 to go fast is the answer.. Also it's not used at top end only :)

I guess I meant its for when it goes terribly terribly wrong....:laugh:

[DaveL485]

Lol, I'd sooner spend the money on fitting a turbo charged 172 lump rather than spruce up the c1j.

:burnrubber:

That's cheating (According to Andy Bond :laugh: )

To quote scoff (I hope you don't mind mate), "If you can get enough gas in and out of the head you'll make as much power as you want". I agree, for sure.
What we are doing is triggering a series of explosions, one at a time, in a confined space. The bigger each explosion is, the more power we get. Easy to increase power then- more "explosive" (air and fuel mixture), right? Right....erm....yeah.

So, we change different criteria that will affect the amount of combustible material that ends up in the chamber. Thats it, as complex as it sounds sometimes, thats all tuning is. Very simple. Trouble is, the baseline you start with, be it a C1J, J7R, RB26 or YB will always be your limiting factor. Size, shape, component limits...take away those and power is easy. EASY. Remember old skool Turbo F1 cars? Est 1500hp in Quali trim from a 1.5L Turbo lump. Fifteen hundred horsepower from a capacity 103cc more than a C1J, because it's optimised without compromise for gas-in, BIG BANG, gas-out.

My point, I guess, is that Nitrous Oxide helps us get so much more combustible material in to that cylinder that the limitation we hit is component failure*, and because of that it gets a bad rep. It gives such a dense charge AND extra Oxygen to which we throw extra fuel as well, suddenly we aren't so much stuck with "normal" issues of flow, capacity, and suchlike.
For those that discount it, why? It just does what all the other tuning components do (or contribute to), just far better as a single, standalone modification.


*Discounting the dumbo's that set it up badly and grenade the engine because its running way out of whack

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Just make sure if you do go down the nitrous route, pray your engine is in a good state, you sure don't want a 'nitrous backfire'.....:smokin:

[DaveL485]

Lol fair point, but then the heart of the car is gone.

This is my hangup too, otherwise i'd throw an Evo lump in the 21, buy off-the-shelf bits for an easy 600bhp and laugh all the way home.

BUT.

When you open the hood, people would say "aaaaaaahhh it's an Evo lump" like, I don't know, like it explains why the battered old R21 is actually fast. Tsk...as if the original engine could be quick....pah! Preposterous!

No....I want to open the bonnet and see eyes widen to the sight of the J-series engine. I want to see the disbelief, I want to see the expectation of the transplant drop off everyones faces. And I want to stay as true as I can to the car itself, and thus I have to stay within those limitations that come with it as mentioned above.

[DaveL485]

Just make sure if you do go down the nitrous route, pray your engine is in a good state, you sure don't want a 'nitrous backfire'.....:smokin:

I'll tell you the spec of mine, if you're interested (it's not a C1J though it's a 1995cc, SOHC J7R from the 21 Turbo)

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Is it the spec in your profile?

[Ricardo]

Used to.. Sold up over a year ago now :)

Absolute weapon of a 5 :agree: :)

[kentraider]

Absolute weapon of a 5 :agree: :)

too bloody rite...:agree::agree: ridiculous 60 foot times...thats the nos for ya lol :cooter::cooter::D

[DaveL485]

Is it the spec in your profile?

Nope, thats old and what was on the car when I registered. Since then it's had new fuelling and Adaptronic fitted, and then the spec i'm talking about above is a total new build altogether.

[Scoff]

Hmmm. Interesting. I sit in the other camp with regards to valves....surely the inlet is the biggest benefit by far? Getting the exhaust gas out is nowhere near as hard as getting the inlet gas in, for starters exhaust ports flow in the opposite direction to inlets... a large part of what determines the flow efficiency of inlet ports themselves is how well the port guides the air to fully utilise the entire circumference of the valve seat. In nearly all cases this can't be achieved because air travelling at high speed can't get round the short side bend in the port and just skips across the back of the valve head and tries to exit through the long side of the valve seat.
The exhaust port doesn’t fall foul of this…. The air already uses the full circumference of the valve seat by virtue of the fact it's going into the seat from all round the combustion chamber anyway. Provided the port itself is big enough then almost any design of exhaust port will flow at a good efficiency because the valve (seat) is being used effectively. Even the shape of the short side bend is not that critical because it's not having to guide the gas IN to a seat - all it's doing is guiding the gas into the port.

TL : DR- Exhaust valves work better, naturally. Hence inlet improvements being something I would prefer to focus on.

I would be very much interested to hear any rebuttle on the above, seeing as, y'know, I chucked three and a half thousand quid at a cylinder head that you're going to tune for me based on my "inlets are best" theory :laugh::laugh::laugh:

The rules change when you're putting in 100hp or more of nitrous Dave. The denser charge from cooling helps to relieve the need for a bigger inlet. And you're not trying to put more gas through them, so why bother. Infact you want to keep gas speed up, so there is no point in making them larger than necessary. More importantly you have a lot more exhaust gas than you did before you switched the nitrous on.

The C1J's exhaust ports are very poor so there is gain to be had there with nitrous. The same might not be true of other engines.

With nitrous you can use a bigger turbine, and you should. Anything that helps the path of exhaust gas in a nitrous engine is a bonus.

[Bigfoot]

Had a read of this website which I thought was quite interesting on what is needed to do to the head when running NOS

http://www.akamoto.co.uk/info/Nitrous-head-mods.htm

[Scoff]

Boring bits removed

Thankyou! It makes reading the forums so much nicer when there is no crap to wade through :)

(I should add: I don't know what was deleted, and by who they were posted, but I think it's nice to have tech topics without any BS.)

[andybond]

The C1J's exhaust ports are very poor so there is gain to be had there with nitrous.

How so ? restrictive size ?

[Scoff]

How so ? restrictive size ?

Size, design and irregular casting Andy.

[andybond]

Size, design and irregular casting Andy.

Understand the size thing ( ie too narrow ) , talk to me about design : I guess it is the tight curve on 1 and 4 and the staight exits interrupting on port 2 and 3 ?

Irregular casting ? The rough and smooth and irregular diameters ?

[Scoff]

By irregular casting Andy I ment the differences in port shape you picked up on already :)

[andybond]

By irregular casting Andy I ment the differences in port shape you picked up on already :)

:agree:

Cheers. Appreciate the insight.

[DaveL485]

The rules change when you're putting in 100hp or more of nitrous Dave.

Ah- understood now. NoS = Different rules :cool:

My exhaust valve is a beast, 40.1mm diameter with a port to match, and to be fair I don't think I could get any bigger if I wanted to anyway....the fecking bespoke exhaust valves were £84 plus VAT....EACH :cry: so stuff doing that again.

Inlet-
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/DaveL485/quaddie/th_0D622D0F-655C-45F9-8452-EDF6D51B64DB-386-0000003266422BF4.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/DaveL485/media/quaddie/0D622D0F-655C-45F9-8452-EDF6D51B64DB-386-0000003266422BF4.jpg.html)

Exhaust-
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/DaveL485/quaddie/th_72D50796-0B28-422D-834C-998F18C1AEB8-386-000000328363C699.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/DaveL485/media/quaddie/72D50796-0B28-422D-834C-998F18C1AEB8-386-000000328363C699.jpg.html)

Valves-
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/DaveL485/quaddie/th_F8DAC2CF-A00C-4C13-AB2B-E1BDCF1F4964-386-00000033001FA75A.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/DaveL485/media/quaddie/F8DAC2CF-A00C-4C13-AB2B-E1BDCF1F4964-386-00000033001FA75A.jpg.html)

'tis a work of art that head (probably only IMO though :laugh:)

Question: On this head the 'plug comes in from the exhaust side. On the 8v, the plug comes in from the inlet side. I don't know whether to use a hotter rated plug or not, after all, the electrode ends up inside the big fiery chamber whatever happens. Thoughts?

[andybond]

Ah- understood now. NoS = Different rules :cool:



you twerp. Look at the title of the thread.

:D

[Scoff]

Question: On this head the 'plug comes in from the exhaust side. On the 8v, the plug comes in from the inlet side. I don't know whether to use a hotter rated plug or not, after all, the electrode ends up inside the big fiery chamber whatever happens. Thoughts?

My honest advice Dave is to cross that bridge when you get there. Start with an NGK 8 and read them throughout mapping. You'll want to be doing that anyway to get a feel for balance assuming you don't have a thermocouple in each exhaust primary :)

[Red October]

I had the larger valves and the headwork put in by http://www.chaseengineservices.co.uk/ who do the heads for the duratec race series.

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/20130301_104450.jpg (http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/RedOctober5/media/20130301_104450.jpg.html)

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/20130301_104615.jpg (http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/RedOctober5/media/20130301_104615.jpg.html)

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/20130301_104531.jpg (http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/RedOctober5/media/20130301_104531.jpg.html)

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/20130301_104549.jpg (http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/RedOctober5/media/20130301_104549.jpg.html)

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/578462_10151460572954361_1806463309_n1-2.jpg (http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/RedOctober5/media/578462_10151460572954361_1806463309_n1-2.jpg.html)

[Red October]

That's the best comparison

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/20130312_152352-2.jpg (http://s1173.photobucket.com/user/RedOctober5/media/20130312_152352-2.jpg.html)

[Red October]

We probably didn't spend as much as you think :ashamed: In Glenns case I guess the turbo and EFI were most expensive. Mine was pretty cheap too apart from the internals and turbo say. The rest is time and effort.

The difficulty with the carb is getting enough fuel in at high boost. It's a noticable restriction above 240hp or so too but it's been proven a couple of times that they will flow quite a bit more if you push. I think Gianni is mostly managing it with nitrous. A lot of it. To do the same you should install a seperate EFI fuel circuit with regulator. You'll need additional fuel injectors to run the carb much past 250hp. The same circuit can supply your nitrous system too. I think thats going to be the best way to go if you want to keep the carb.

Getting the engine to respond to a lot of boost and nitrous is the next challenge. You should look at putting in bigger exhaust valves and improving the exhaust ports. With nitrous you have a lot more exhaust gas to worry about. Leave the inlets alone. The choice of cam is important too. As off the shelf items go the BP270 is what you should be looking at, with a vernier. Some retard on the cam can make some shocking increases in HP at the expense of low RPM response.

Good luck :)

Thanks for the help.

Well I was planning on getting the car booked in at EFI Feb/Mar if there was available space Chris to have the nodiz fitted (looms ready to plug and play just needs installing) and mapped on the T28. If I can get some kind of picture (itemised shopping list) on here for the nitrous setup, would that be something (nodiz&nitrous) you would be interested in helping me with and mapping/installing?

[Scoff]

Yes Red, but best to put anything work related in to an email if you can, it helps to keep me organised :)

[DaveL485]

assuming you don't have a thermocouple in each exhaust primary :)

Hmmm. I could do...exhaust manifold is being made next month...:agree::)