Theres an article on AFRs that i would like to read to get an idea of how and what to look for when using my newly purchased LM1, however the link is dead so though i would flag this up :).
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=4761
soz dude, that is the article. It is from the old rtoc site, and it was only a link to a thread on there that had some good info regarding afr's. The thread went bye bye when the site crashed :crap:
i l k e r
20-05-2009, 19:40
I may have some of those threads saved somewhere.
give me a couple of days and I'll try and dig them out.
I may have some of those threads saved somewhere.
give me a couple of days and I'll try and dig them out.
:cool::agree:
Boards > 5 GT Turbo > AIR FUEL METER Topic ID: 26140
Portuguese Turbo
Club Member
*I - International/Non-UK
Hi
I bought an air/fuel meter but now i don’t know were to put the lambda sensor. Should I fit it before the curve on the down pipe or after?
Does anyone have one?
Thanks.
01/04/2004 14:48 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289387
Swany
Club Member
PO - Portsmouth
Hey hey, i thought you said you didnt post any messages;-)
I thought people put theres in the tail pipe in the back boxes?
01/04/2004 15:37 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289418
Portuguese Turbo
Club Member
*I - International/Non-UK
I always saw them on other cars near the exhaut manifolds.
01/04/2004 16:00 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289438
ave
Club Member
*I - International/Non-UK
I have one, but didn't fitted it yet.
They say it's best to fit 1 meter after the turbo!!
eek
For a wideband sensor, that is!
01/04/2004 16:01 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289439
€9492;®7892;¥
Club Member
RG - Reading
I thought they were normally in the middle of the exhaust?
01/04/2004 16:01 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289440
Swany
Club Member
PO - Portsmouth
get a side exit then in thery itd be half way through a normal exhaustlook
01/04/2004 16:10 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289451
Portuguese Turbo
Club Member
*I - International/Non-UK
The meter is from LUMENITION ref.: 77-AFR004 and as 19 Leds. The lambda sensor works on 0-1Volts.
01/04/2004 16:27 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289468
Miller Online Now!
Area Rep
KA - Kilmarnock
I am going to get one and a local jap tuner told me that the closer to the turbo the better he sade that the outlet on the elbo would be perfict.
01/04/2004 16:52 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289482
The Pervy *******
Club Member
S - Sheffield
aint it best to plumb it into the downpipe?
01/04/2004 17:54 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289504
Mart Online Now!
Senior Area Rep
DA - Dartford
It depends on what w/b sensor you've bought. The LSU4's don't like being too near to the turbo/excessive heat, so on the downpipe or further away is more ideal, whereas the NTK's temp' operating range is higher, thus they may well be ok in close proximity to the exhaust housing.
01/04/2004 18:11 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289513
Mart Online Now!
Senior Area Rep
DA - Dartford
Saying all that, it looks like you've bought a narrowband sensor, so won't matter where it's placed wink
01/04/2004 18:14 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289515
Portuguese Turbo
Club Member
*I - International/Non-UK
I'll get some pics tonight wen i get them.big grin
01/04/2004 20:20 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289565
Ian S Online Now!
Club Marketing Manager
IG - Ilford
Really there is little or no point in using the narrow band type with the 5GTT. I fitted and experimented with one and with a 1.3mm main jet on a standard car it was off the top of the scale all the time. If I adjusted down the carb so the reading was on the scale the car was slower. And the idle was weak and rougher when set to a leaner mixture according to the Lambda sensor, it was best a bit rich.
So i didn't bother to get another when I sold that one with the exhaust.
Wide band it has to be. They read a wider range of air fuel ratio so you can see how rich it is for best running.
As far as sensor locationgoes, do you have one with a heated element? If yes than at the bottom of the down pipe is OK as the heat is more stable there. The sensor needs to be at about 600°C all the time. The heated ones stay at that but hot gas will take it higher so causing a big output error.
But the unheated ones need to be near the manifold or they dont work.
3 or 4 wire will be heated.
01/04/2004 23:30 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289686
***Big JIM***
Club Member
SO - Southampton
so when we say 'wideband ' is that refering to the actual lambda sensor itself regardless of the actual gauge displaying the figures, ive seen more and more of these recently and the cheapest being the splitfire round gauge type at 70 odd quid, ive seen a few circuit diagrams to build your own but none have been clear enough for me to fully understandrolls eyes
02/04/2004 0:12 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289706
Ian S Online Now!
Club Marketing Manager
IG - Ilford
Yes it refers to the sensor not the gauge.
A wideband sensor can cost £800. £250 min, it seems. There are slower and faster response types with varying accuracies.
Then there follows a circuit to convert the sensors output to something a gauge and can use.
Then a voltemeter, essentially.
The ones to which you refer, including the Alpha one in Classifieds advertised as a wideband, are in fact narrowband, you can make yur own for about £50 all in. Plus fitting to the exhaust.
Autospeed, the australian magazine did a simple circuit. Not worth bothering with, as I said, for the 5GTT anyway.
02/04/2004 0:35 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289716
Mart Online Now!
Senior Area Rep
DA - Dartford
Wideband & narrowband refer to the actual lambda sensor being used. Narrowband are cheapo sensors that do the job good enough for ecus on modern cars; ie, they measure the fuelling around the stochiometric ratio (14:1 afr) so that when the afr starts going lean (+14:1) fuel gets dumped in, and vice versa when the afr goes -14:1. It's crude, but it works.
The problem is, is once you go a couple a units outside stochiometric the narrowband sensor can't differentiate between lean/mega lean and/or rich/mega rich conditions, so for tuning purposes they're not much good. When used with a display or a dvm, n/b sensors are ok for giving you a rough idea that the fuelling is leaning off (or richening), but won't give an accurate account of how much the fuelling is leaning off (or richening). This is where a wideband sensor comes into its own.
A wideband lambda sensor basically works the same as a n/b (in fact it uses a n/b sensor), but measures the afr's in more minute detail due to having a built-in O2 pump cell/heater arrangement (details are on the net if you wanna know more) which helps produce a faster response/sampling rate and more importantly, is more accurate over a wider range away from stochiometric, hence it now can differentiate between rich/mega rich, or lean equivalent, conditions.
The only downside to w/b sensors is that you need to use a controller (uego) to control the heater via feedback signals from the pump cell, thus it's like a tiny processor working away, hence the cost of running a w/b setup is more than that of a n/b setup (the w/b probes are at least 4 times more expensive than std n/b's for starters), but then if you want tuning accuracy...
02/04/2004 0:50 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289718
Rich16vt
Club Member
L - Liverpool
------
The meter is from LUMENITION ref.: 77-AFR004 and as 19 Leds. The lambda sensor works on 0-1Volts.
------
0-1v fook, I thought they were 0-5v
02/04/2004 1:27 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289732
Mart Online Now!
Senior Area Rep
DA - Dartford
------
The meter is from LUMENITION ref.: 77-AFR004 and as 19 Leds. The lambda sensor works on 0-1Volts.
------
0-1v fook, I thought they were 0-5v
------
Aii mate, which means it'll be a narrowband sensor.
On most uego controllers you can change the output/there's another additional o/p so that it simulates 0-1v (as opposed to a w/b 0-5v o/p), hence you can still use a w/b sensor with 'off-the-shelf' AFR gauges like the Lumenition one for example.
02/04/2004 8:50 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289747
Ian S Online Now!
Club Marketing Manager
IG - Ilford
------
hence you can still use a w/b sensor with 'off-the-shelf' AFR gauges like the Lumenition one for example.
------
Good, that one I made from the dodgy Pelican Parts circuit could be used after all. Assuming I can fix it!
How about expaning on this a bit Mart as an article?
02/04/2004 14:04 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289892
Mart Online Now!
Senior Area Rep
DA - Dartford
It can mate, but only assuming the controller gives a simulated (or a converted) 0-1v output, but then you're only gonna get a true definition of what the afr is providing you use many leds or an lcd display, etc.
Aii, feel free to rip/copy what you want as an article smile
And I haven't forgotten about the suspension article either wink smile
02/04/2004 14:08 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289898
Ian S Online Now!
Club Marketing Manager
IG - Ilford
I used 20 LEDs, nice looking. Shame it didn't work, maybe oscilated. Or maybe that circiut is a bit duff, the manufacturers data sheet for that chip is incomplete to say the least.
Just done a brief link from Articles to this thread. That will have to do for now.
smile
02/04/2004 14:19 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289901
Rich R
Website Editor
YO - York
Just to really throw a spanner in the works - Subaru fit them *before* the turbo(s)...
I've investigated lambda sensors in some depth (being an electronics bod), and in the end decided that the price of a wideband sensor, and the driver circuitry was just too expensive for what I wanted to know.
You can get a reasonable idea from EGT instead, which is much cheaper to monitor. Type-K thermocouple, ice-point compensator ic and a voltmeter.
But that's just my experience. My GTT isn't stupid powerful, running on the edge, so I don't need to monitor AFR that closely at the moment.
02/04/2004 14:20 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289902
Mart Online Now!
Senior Area Rep
DA - Dartford
The price of w/b sensors have come down drastically over the past 12 months. The Bosch LSU4 (which is a common probe used with w/b kits) can be had for about a one'er, if that, but yeah, the price of uego controllers/drivers are still fairly high frown One of the cheapest I've seen is the AEM controller, but that's all it is, a controller, with no display, built-in data-logging etc, which isn't much use unless you plan on hooking it up to your aftermarket ecu management.
02/04/2004 14:28 post reply quoting this message
ID: 289905
Portuguese Turbo
Club Member
*I - International/Non-UK
Hi.
Thnaks for all the hell.
Some more infos that might help. The Lambda sensor was from a crashed saxo (hehehe how they all should be) and has 4 wires. and the AFR (LUMENITION ref.: 77-AFR004) works from 0-1V
So, after reading all the previous posts, seems to me that, or i need to conect some more wires to make the sensor hoter (to make it more accurate) or move it a litle up.
I'll try the the 1st and them post the results.
1 more thing the car is now runing 150main jet and the AFR meter is showing the ixture lean even at idlefrown
Well there's something - I was higher up the pecking order than Sir Miller back then :D
Damn, where have those 5 years gone... :(
Damn, where have those 5 years gone... :(
Same place as the other 30 mate I'm affraid!
Aii mate :( Come end of next month we're halfway through the year already. Crazy!
soz dude, that is the article. It is from the old rtoc site, and it was only a link to a thread on there that had some good info regarding afr's. The thread went bye bye when the site crashed :crap:
No problem, appreciate the additonal info. :) hopefully this sunday ill pic up my new downpipe and get the afr meter setup and learn a bit :)
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