View Full Version : GTA project engine
On a mission to get the most out of the Z7U ala 2bobanaconka tuning .
Most of the bits are here and the build should start sometime next week .Was aiming for Pod day but I feel it will be a bit tight so have not set that as a target .
I'm doing this with one of the Alpine lads who's real passion is engines .Most of the ideas are coming from him and he's just finishing off the second head .The exhaust ports/valves are having 95% of the reworking along with the manifold and run up to the turbo collector .Cam is sorted from Piper to a proven spec from a n other source from a few years ago .
Big Jim is on the case also and has just sent me these pics of the new pipework and downpipe .Really pleased with the outcome .Jim certainly knows his stuff :agree:
Divorced wastegate pipe to try and improve the crappy std setup .Single exit with silencer for track :laugh: All on mocked up engine .
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Adam L has supplied a fresh rebuild on the 60 trim 0.42 T3 mated to a .63 exhaust housing from Bloxsie .
Mr Scoff and I mapped with the bigger turbo on Weds night and now it's running 20psi on the std engine .Scoff will be mapping the new engine and we now have a fairly advanced starting point from the data on the old lump .
A real cross club effort to try and get the most out of the thing without spending thousands ..
I'll dig out some more pics and update as the build progresses ..
be good to see someone getting good figures out of this engine! :agree::agree::agree:
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yeah,,,,,,go Lee....should be pretty awesome...with the added soundtrack of the Vee...ooooooeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ,,,,i've come
Bits ...
Later Z7U engines had cross bolted central caps .This block had the meat in the casting but had not been drilled so off down to my friendly toolmakers :cool:
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Pistons ....0.050" off the crown and glass beaded .Need to dress the skirt .
I've got a brand new set of pistons/liners/rings but they are being saved for MK2
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Lightened flywheels ,one from an Atmo so no timing teeth .If all goes well another engine is being built with added knowledge from this first one,so two wheels .
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Water pump from 3liter engine .
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nice work there mate , like your effort tuning the engine , keep us updated:)
Bit of a delay ....
The liners out of the build block looked a bit worse than some others we had so decided to not to use them in favour of some better ones ....
Ahhh ,but, now then ...At some point ,probably when they went to the cross bolt design Renault decided to increase the liner base location diameter so when I go to fit them I've got 1mm slop :rolleyes: This increase is noted in the engine build data for PRVs but does not mention the Z7U as being one of those affected .
So all you GTA guys out there take note ! Do not throw out old liners without checking the base location ...I feel I'm talking to myself somehow ...........
Just got the original liners back after being honed professionally to get rid of a step .So once the big ends shells get here I'll be on with building the bottom end .
Heads are done but not here until next week .
Big ends shells here :cool: Mr Paul B via Renault France with a bit of RTOC discount :agree:
All parts here to start the bottom end build so it's clean clean clean over the weekend now all the dirty stuff is done .
Reworked turbo collector ...the std casting has a big lump on the large turn radius that needs removing and bias the flow towards the entry top .We are going to weld a divider plate to the collector that extends into the turbo itself to try and keep the r/lh flows apart as long as poss .
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i l k e r
15-05-2009, 20:09
looking good Lee!
I've always had a soft spot for vee engines :smokin:
Re-worked heads .Exhaust valves around 2/3 mil bigger .Mucho material removed :eek: some added :wasntme: and removed again .
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Std exhaust ports :sad2:
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Andrew Cooke
18-05-2009, 18:57
does the engine fire L-R-L-R-L-R ?
First post!
Hi Lee
Can I get that rain coat icon then please ;) ..
Pics of heads on way thru wire as we speak, post away. Don't forget the guides haven't been finished to length yet. Like the way you are doing this thread :).
As you mention the later blocks have the same spigot as the 3ltr, and obviously ran the smaller bore. This gives the advantage that these liners are much thicker than the std 2.5ltr turbo, and considerably thicker than the paper thin 3ltr (at the spigot, have had them develop cracks). Add into the bargain better heat retention in the cylinder for lower thermal losses.
As to the 3ltr pump, it's a much more efficient item than the std 2.5ltr paddle (corrodes due to cavitation) and brass so won't simply rust away either. So, it's the item to fit that’s if you don't go electric. You also want the 3ltr water divider as it gives closer 50:50 water distribution (feed) between the cylinder banks, the earlier 2.5ltr does not - favours the right side looking on the nose of the crank. The one area that does need taking care, and I have modified differently to what we are doing here, and that's get a better Y divider for the water exit from the heads. The 2.5ltr is poor in this regard, but the 3ltr is actually worse - have a look - right side exit flow crashes directly into flow from the left. I think we will need to change it. I'll send you some pics and you can post.
Hey, this is my virgin post - hi all! :)
Closest I could get Martin :laugh:
:denied:
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
does the engine fire L-R-L-R-L-R ?
yes switches banks
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Closest I could get Martin :laugh:
:denied:
ha-ha+ just need everybody else running away :eek::)
You'll get used to it ...they don't understand ...it's a GTA thing :smokin:
Things have slowed down a tad on this due to work commitments.Never mind , we are in no real rush and it's better to take things slowly after seeing a rather scary vid ( yeh, thanks for that Martin )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM0rY
Looked into the springs a bit and are going to be using some interference units so Martin is busy making them fit .Needs the spring seat area modding etc ....That should be about it parts wise .
Next to build the engine and mount it up on a spare subframe .Different starter is required and various bits of pipework ,belts and mounts need looking at when it's on the frame .Then pull the existing lump ,fit new ,iron out troubles ,run in cams and lump then remap ....
I think National day is probably not going to happen with the new lump .
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Chris Hebden
07-07-2009, 15:48
What are you hoping to achieve with this Lee? The pics and research look immense mate! Well done to you :agree:
Thanks Chris .
There is a power target ......But it must be achieved without spending £££££s .....300 bhp engine ,this is the Holy Grail for the GTA Turbo .
This will be more than the Europa cup cars but they were notoriously unreliable .Exhaust port and pipe runs up to turbo are the main restrictions .
Standard internals and apart from a cam regrind the rest will be Martins porting and valve work, 2 mil bigger exhaust valve and std but different model inlet . All the rest will be a mix of the best bits from other PRV .
There are no tuning parts available off the shelf anywhere as not many have tackled it and there is even less of a market for it if they did ...This is all to prove a point :)
Big power PRVs do exist but you're talking twin turbo and thousands upon thousands to get it done .There is one under construction in NI but that's being done with an open chequebook .
Heads are finished at last and show pretty good results on the flowbench.Should pick them up tomorrow .
But now we know where the real power lies .....Cam lift ...the new regrind ones are the best we can get out of the std Z7U but we need more so on the look out for some Volvo b28, b280 or best ren30 2.9 for inspection and regrind .I did have a pair but sold them ages ago :mad:
The z7u regrinds are now in the bin it would seem . Hope we can flog them on ,they are a lot better than std but the higher lift is now a given .
Lots of other bits are heading that way as well .Newly ringed pistons now un-ringed :rolleyes:
Oil control is key also so some Total seal 3 piece units and top ring but std issue 2nd .
Now then Mr Faulks ...we seem to be losing sight of that thing called budget :laugh:
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New poster! (less than 10 posts)
:) noo, all not blown... yet.... no I'll sit down and work it out :coffee: but I think we will be ok, the real only major additions are the TS rings, and the double valve springs. The valve springs will be needed for high lift anyway, as the OE springs coil bind at 10mm lift anyway and hence won't do what we need :disagree:
As you will be looking at longevity then you will want to have your bottom-end assembly static / dynamic balanced - flywheel clutch cover, rods pistons etc. Pistons you can do and just supply the lightest.
Just out of interest I was going back over old posts and files to try and find my flow numbers on the 3ltr heads to compare the 2.5 just done, and came across this... it's a works Pug prep'd GrA piston, didn't jump out at me before.... see the mod :smokin: .. so oil control tis problemo as I have been worried, and borne out by the oil scrapper on the Eurocup piston I mentioned before, although that wasn't drilled with black holes like this one, possibly a bit excessive...
Andrew Cooke
02-08-2009, 14:08
I'd like to see the flow cuves :)
My head would love ~12mm+ lift (40mm valve), but it just isn't possible to get more than 10mm without either getting higher lift rockers made, and/or going to much bigger diameter followers. We didn't test the head over 12mm, but it was still picking up flow at that (~4cfm/mm).
Any pictures of the valve gear on that engine?
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Hi Andrew,
Yes will do, measuring up all the cams I can find at the moment.
The 2.5ltr GTA version of the PRV Z7U has 44mm inlet as std, but on a 30 deg seat, I found that beyond 11mm lift the flow was limited by the discharge coef of the valve seat combo and didm't gain a great deal there after. However, the std turbo cam has around 7mm lift peak inlet and exhaust, and the Prima Racing cam (regrind) gives only 8mm, and isn't going to work that well on this application either.
Have pics of the rocker gear, what do you want to see, the setup, or side profile of the follower itself? I have measured up lift / duration etc with the std pad follower and ground flat followers and depending on the particular origin of the V6 cams can gain a few degrees and time-area, and slightly faster accel off seat depending on the cam position but about it - it's an asymmetrical profile (and changed bank to bank), and has the added complexity that follower that leads or lags the rotation of the cam (1-3 inlet follower lags the profile, 4-6 it leads, if you get my meaning) swaps from one bank to the other, most regrinds don't take this into account. However, I have found a roller rocker in a Renault 1.4 that matches exactly the PRV hardware and centers, and currently having a steel roller cam profile made up. Test with common cam gave roughly an addition 1mm of lift through rocker ratio. This may be the only solution but will bust Lee's budget so looking for other alternatives as well.
Andrew Cooke
02-08-2009, 21:56
I know almost nothing about the V6 engine, I remember my dad replacing the cams in his Volvo a few years back...
I'm not looking for anything specific, just wondering how it all fits together. I can see OHC, I guess it uses rockers, does it use 1 lobe for inlet and exhaust, or separate lobes? Does it somehow use a follower, or is it a bit like a pinto? Either way I bet the geometry is pretty complex.
When you flow the head do you use a correct sized cylinder bore? With and without inlet manifold? With my engine we didn't seem to gain anything with the big valve until the lift was pretty high, I think that what we gained in curtain area we lost in cylinder wall shrouding - until we lifted clear of the wall anyway. We didn't get involved in investigating further.
It's OHC, and uses rockers one per (12V version 2v cylinder). On the 24v version it had one per on the exhaust and one rocker for 2 inlets. This was done to fit the std head dimensions, and available hardware restraints. However, Lee's engine is the 12V.
Std inlet has been used 44mm, two versions, and uses the one giving best flow. The margin is too thin to allow a 45deg seat, so std 30 deg had to be retained.
Exhaust has gone +2mm and extensive port work.
Quick snap shot of the results (all measurements taken at 10inch depression, however can esay work this out to 28" if needed):
Bare port flow:
Inlet 121 cfm - no manifold fitted, some strange effects noticed at port entry, will investigate later.
Exhaust 88.5 cfm
E/I ratio 73% so on the money, but this is after extensive work on the exhaust, no real wonder this engine is a pint of mild!
With the header fitted and in revised configuration, flow-calming effect brought the E/I ratio up to 77%, where as fitted OE style there was a loss.
Inlet 8mm (valve fitted at peak cam lift) the flow dropped to 97.3 cfm
10mm 110 cfm
11mm 112.7 cfm
So slightly lower incremental than yours, but lift a smaller percentage of valve diameter.
91mm bore, 63mm stroke, each cylinder 416.66cc
When you flow the head do you use a correct sized cylinder bore? With and without inlet manifold? With my engine we didn't seem to gain anything with the big valve until the lift was pretty high, I think that what we gained in curtain area we lost in cylinder wall shrouding - until we lifted clear of the wall anyway. We didn't get involved in investigating further.
Andrew, pics show the geometry best. But yes you are right same deal as you. Used a dummy cylinder correct size. There is little shrouding on the inlet and lifts away from the bore wall. But there is on the exhaust and this limits the size of valve and the gains as you say. A larger than std inlet valve probably would have some issues at low lift as you mention. As to the exhaust to gain further would need smaller stems and offset it. Simply more work than it's worth I think... will have to wait and see though :scratch:
It's dragging on a bit this so I've just been out and bought this instead :laugh:
Scary thing is it would fit quite nicely :devil:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/1227490.htm
Penfold aka The Dealer
05-09-2009, 11:01
It's dragging on a bit this so I've just been out and bought this instead :laugh:
Scary thing is it would fit quite nicely :devil:
http://pistonheads.com/sales/1227490.htm
F*ck me that looks like a monster, have you actually brought it?
Two too many noughts for my pocket ...
Nice :)
Called earlier... both your manifolds are craked around the corner fold of the pipe flanges, too difficult to save, I'll send over pics, so u/s unfortunately. I have a short one that is good and I have checked it, do you have a long one? I'll give you a call when you're about. :crap:
No manifolds left :( I don't thinks so anyway .There was that set on your heads and the only others are on the car .
Feck-it :crap: lets just get the rest built up and worry about them later .I will have three engines on the floor in a couple of weeks anyway so one of them may throw up a good set ;)
I now have all the bits ( well nearly ) to start bolting it all together :)
We still have an issue with the exhaust manifolds in that the new ones do not line up quite right to the head .
It all looks very promising .Martin has sweat a bit of blood on the heads so thanks for that mate :agree:
Weak points will be cam and hopefully clutch :devil:
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your doing well mate , keep it up cant wait to see this engine complete , where did you get your shells for the bottom end from??
Thanks Lee, my pleasure, let's hope we get results we're looking for and that will be the important reward. :cool:
Need to spend some time thinking about the ultimate turbo spec, as we have modified so many things getting a baseline is going to be difficult. The whole performance and characteristics of the engine in terms of torque etc is going to hang on it. The engine should /will now more efficiently empty the cylinder, reduced pressure loss to the turbine inlet, but this will hinge on the A/R of the turbine housing determining the back-pressure. The over-lap time area of the cam has been increased, will give us increased blow-down, increased cooling of the exhaust valve and piston crown. So will want reduced backpressure to gain the advantages. :coffee:
How are you finding the std engine performance with the .68 over the previous .48 turbine housing in terms of spool response, torque curve and go go go? What's the transition like from n/a to forced, and the mid-range torque?
We should be aiming for 350hp probably top limit and on the very happy side, but certainly over 300 :smokin: . So we can work back from there and size up.
Let me know if you get the chance to check a different set of headers, thanks.
We got on a bit more with this today .Mucho cutting and welding of exhaust headers mainly .There are still lots of boxes of bits lying about tho and some things have gone walkabout but there is light at the end of tunnel and I think it's twin-turbo'd :D
.48 turbine housing on a single std layout for this build but for the next generation we are pretty much convinced that two blowers are the way to go .
Andrew Cooke
12-10-2009, 13:09
yeah, twins would be nice :)
It's the way forward .It still needs to be DIY 2bobanaconker tune so std headers upside down and pointing backwards or GTA N/As .Smallish T2 or more modern but common cheap as chips units will do . Any tips on what to look out for would be welcome all :agree:
Venturi used the PRV with twins for the 400 LM's .I've seen one in the flesh at Bruntingthorpe and reckon a GTA with a similar power plant would have it for brekky :laugh:
Andrew Cooke
13-10-2009, 17:59
are you sure you're only looking for 300hp?
You just need to find a production engine around 1.5L and 150hp at your kind of boost, and snaffle a couple of turbos off them. Fiesta RS turbo maybe?
Why don't you use T3's and stick a couple of Escort RS turbo blowers on there, that'll leave the road free to fit something flash on in the future :D
300+ is the target for this first build .Get the most out of the Z7U in a fairly std layout without custom headers etc .That will destroy the myth :laugh:
400 + with the twins is very possible :devil:
Twins feeding through single cooler to single throttle body .Mr F will be able to do the math and very tech stuff and I'm going to learn how to weld ......Ali and steel :)
Andrew Cooke
13-10-2009, 18:25
I'd imagine that you'd be looking at 400hp at around 1 bar boost. So maybe a 45trim T3 compressor? I can't remember what an escort RS turbo uses, I think it has a .36 exhaust housing, so a reasonable starting point. It all depends upon what you can find lying around really.
Std GTA is T3 with a .36 turbine and .42 comp so a couple of those instead of just the one :crap: Escort cossie T3 60 trim is a normal upgrade .
Martin was on about a Mitsu of some sort from a common source that are cheap and plentiful ,I can't remember what .
A bonus is that I now have a GTA breaker so I can mock stuff up on a subframe and plonk it in the remains and see what would work where as the plumbing and intercooling is going to take some thinking .
Trouble is my work is on the downturn so it may well take a while to find the funds but the upside is I'll have plenty of time to mess about and do it :laugh:
All zee pips are now weld nicely, just as your mum would like'm :cool:
Blimey on the EFI manifold stuff ;) , if anybody else wants one I have a couple, I could do with some nosh, petrol costs are killing me at the moment!
Good stuff .Did you find the missing spacers ?
Yeh ,good price on the EFI .It's going to the States.One of Stunned Monkey's contacts .
Andrew Cooke
16-10-2009, 13:23
Std GTA is T3 with a .36 turbine and .42 comp so a couple of those instead of just the one :crap: Escort cossie T3 60 trim is a normal upgrade .
Martin was on about a Mitsu of some sort from a common source that are cheap and plentiful ,I can't remember what .
A bonus is that I now have a GTA breaker so I can mock stuff up on a subframe and plonk it in the remains and see what would work where as the plumbing and intercooling is going to take some thinking .
Trouble is my work is on the downturn so it may well take a while to find the funds but the upside is I'll have plenty of time to mess about and do it :laugh:
A couple of standard turbos may well do the trick, measure the compressor inducer to see what trim it is :)
Are there any single scroll mitsu turbos? I don't know anything about them, you won't want twin scroll with the twins.
Just had a sort out, found these bad boys ...Std GTA T3 .
42.50 inducer .
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Andrew Cooke
16-10-2009, 17:54
That'll be a 50 trim then, you won't want anything bigger, coming in at the right type of cash by the look of things :D
Just right for my wallet :agree:
I'm going to mock up something at the weekend .
Not had a chance to look yet, worked late the other night doing the headers down the workshop, not been out to the garage yet.
There are a couple of versions of the std GTA turbo compressor cover, want the larger one of the two, think I have some kicking around too.
The route to go will be block the internal waste gates, have a Y cross-over pipe between the headers and an external waste gate atmo vent :devil:
Will likely want more inlet flow than current balance, as the overall system performance from the point of exhaust mass flow will be looking very healthy indeed with twins. I think the 380 - 400hp could be possible. No silencers or through losses, and minimal inlet restrictions up stream of the compressors. Need efficient inlet charge temperature control, not what we have at the moment. I would rework the pistons to ensure the top ring isn't going to float off it's land through blow-by gasses trapped between the top and second ring, and would need further oil drain back. Probably end up moving peak revs up to 7.5 to 8k... the king is dead, long live the new king :) Project 2
Mr F ..tech/weed in ass dept ...
Best get Mk1 done first tho ay :laugh:
No rush ,we have all winter now .
I need to get the Red one out the way ..It all fires up and good pressure ,sounds sweet but have a water leak on the pipe at the back of the V under the turbo :mad:
All stripped out and ready to repair but waiting on a £3 bit of silicon from Dellboy....I might see it sometime in the new year ..................................
Or I'll see if I can find a suitable offcut in the factors
Ah the silly little (light blue) wrapped bend hoses? I've got some somewhere, but weren't there any on my engine from MVS? Can't you use one of those?
PS. not tried weed in ass but apparently works ;)
Can't find them .No suprise there .
ah might still be on the heads then, think I've got the heads haven't I? I've got no idea where they are though, not sure how I could lose them though?! Yikees... :scratch:
Andrew Cooke
19-10-2009, 13:11
The route to go will be block the internal waste gates, have a Y cross-over pipe between the headers and an external waste gate atmo vent :devil:
I can see where you're going with this, and on the level of balancing the wastegates it makes sense, however, I'm not sure that advantage is worth more than the cross polution between banks and increased manifold volume. I think I'd be tapping the manifolds for EBP and balancing the wastegates that way. :)
Andrew Cooke
19-10-2009, 13:51
EBP ?
? back pressure ?
yep, exhaust, TIP - turbine inlet pressure, call it what you will :)
Andy yes this is a good point, I was trying to balance cost, complexity - keep it simple to fabricate / bodge from existing hardware and easy of build. But all is in the hot pot of ideas for this at the moment as a way off. Good point, and if can balance the waste gates then probably go for it.
Lee, have you had chance to fit the headers to the heads yet, did they go back with some pushing and pulling to the right place? Let me know on the replacement rocker spacers sizes as you know, thanks. Need to think about injectors as well, forgot about that. Think you've got loads to do now mate ;-)
Not had chance to do much ...kids on half term ...some proper work has come in ,breaker bits to pull off and flog ,help out Dawn with partybag stuff and RATS is being developed .
Work in progress but the bones are there :agree:
www.renaultalpinetuningservices.co.uk (http://www.renaultalpinetuningservices.co.uk)
How did you get on yesterday matey ? :agree::disagree:
Scoffski mentioned that upping the line pressure to the injectors cured the same issue I was having on Steve Yorks T2 .
I need to talk to Mr Smith about some BIG Aussie sourced he has for his 610 lumped GTA or some with the 4 jet pattern you were on about ????
Looks good Lee, and when you have it filled out with more packages etc it will pull together nicely as an integrated solution provider
Yesterday, miffed at myself, 4th interview on the day I didn't cut it, and it was the most important. The others before it had gone well especially the first one with the Snr Eng Dir, but don't think on balance that's going to be enough.
Not really hopefull now :-(
Well, we ran out of injector pretty quickly on Steve's T2, transpired there was only 20psi in the rail, a quick adjustment and some transposition of the map solved the problem. It won't take much extra rail pressure if only a few more psi of boost are required. I forget if your GTA has an adjustable regulator or not Lee ? if not, sometimes you can bash the top of the fixed type in with a socket and hammer to raise the diaphrams preload a bit. Fuel pressure gauge essential ;)
eeeeet it wiz ze ammer
Tuning GOD :laugh:
Scoof, we need to fuel it for about 350 hp, which is probably where this thing is going to top out, do need better temp control of the inlet charge. Certainly over 300 which is 20& above current shouldn't be problem. Do you have the exhaust gas mass flow numbers for the .48 and .68 T3 turbine housings? I used to have but can't find now, as I recall wasn't that significant. I think the .68 would be nice but the overall spread of torque is going to suffer, and lose so much lower down that for a general tool (track and road) won't necessarily be the best compromise. The compressor is a .46 trim T4 from memory, so probably a bit of a lag monster, but has sufficient flow and efficiency at required pressure ratio to get the numbers. Accept uitimately not the best choice from modern kit - but came at the right price to the project - free! Ha-ha+
Yesterday, miffed at myself, 4th interview on the day I didn't cut it, and it was the most important. The others before it had gone well especially the first one with the Snr Eng Dir, but don't think on balance that's going to be enough.
Not really hopefull now :-(
You never know ..just remember , there's always someone cleverer than yourself but then someone is always inventing a better idiot :p
No movement on this front Martin .Not had chance to build the heads up .
Finally got the hoses for the red one ....Dellboy gave them to Big MVS and he posted them on a next day ...it can be done if you try :coffee:
I have got to sort the 21 for it's MOT and it needs more than I thought so it's off the road and I'm walking to the factors :laugh:
5 cars on the drive but none of them work :scratch:
Hi Lee, thanks for the support, not heard anything yet, so possibly not rejected out of hand, or simply waiting to see all the candidates. Will see ..
Sure understand, well don't get overwhelmed with it. If you can measure all the pairs and send me that, I'll go from that. I'll give you a call. Hope you get on with the 21 ok!
Really good progress this weekend after a bit of a stall :)
All the real scary stuff is together without any major drama :cool:
Next two weeks will involve fitting to subframe to see where things need to be but most of that is plumbing and clearance issues .
The only real big issue will be intercooling but that can be looked at and developed when it is up and running .
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In the bunch of stuff with the bi-turbo spares were some blown bits. The piston has suffered detonation damage and ring land collapse. Looking at it in detail and lining up with the head, the side that has gone is the hot side of the chamber - exhaust side. So can really only be excessive heat load, and not pressure front compression. I had expected it to be on the cold side of the piston (cold end gases, high pressure rise and slow entrainment, but doesn't look to be the case. The chap with the goodies I bought the other day has one that has collapsed as well for the same reason, apparently that was when he was running up at 33psi :eek:. I'll check the two together to confirm. Interesting, my concern has always been the heat loading around the completely lousy exhaust valve and port configuration probably preventing higher boost pressures safely... will see :coffee:
Oh, Lee, I quickly bodged a plug for the water pump, will stick in the post for you.
Chris (Scoff), quick question and a thought... the more I think about the PRV and batch fire, the more I think it's an unfortunate compromise for the V6 - ignoring steady state or peak power as appreciate not going to make a great deal if any difference there.
Principally I'm considering turbo lag / transient in low gears, transient load demand or driver demand. The Adapt or Renix ECU fire batch every 2 cycles only, hence the transit delay to provide the increased fueling at the next injection period (worse for the Renix as it builds from MAP pressure than input from throttle position) is going to be at least 2 cycles before induction, if not more before a cylinder is supplied increased fueling, then another before any output… at least… Coupled with lagging mass air flow etc - the turbine is just not going to see the increased energy input required to accelerate the compressor rapidly until some considerable time later, and must be high 10ths of seconds at best, certainly not ms. Add the inertia of the single turbo.... Certainly seems the advantage of multi-cylinder is completely lost, and worse as each cylinder is smaller than a 4 pot of equal capacity, so the net heat input per transient event into the turbine is smaller when it does happen! :coffee:
I think this compounds on the PRV - 6 cylinders, batch fire, and add poor fuel atomization IMO.. equivalent of thermodynamic treacle, than an earth quake :rolleyes:
I have seen on all the PRV heads I have looked at, carbonisation of the inlet tract and into the head post injector. Think this is could partly be fuel carbonisation as it sits there in quantity in the heat. Likely occurring to some degree, appreciate depending on gas dynamics in the port, rpm etc. It's not cam overlap and reversion etc as there isn't any on the std turbo cam.
So thought - is it possible to get the Adapt as fitted to Clee's machine to fire in-between the 2 cycle period? Try and increase the rate of response of the combustor sat in between the turbo.. Or could we use two Adapt ECUs and split the banks, some how trigger the one off the other? I have one I could lend to the cause.
Thoughts Chris? I could be worrying about nought, but does seem a bit of an own goal for the V6? Better make it a V4 and grown the pots… ;)
Lee, when you put the inlet manifold on, do you think you could get a paper gasket in-between as a thermal barrier each side? Even just one 4thou paper thickness would be better than metal-to-metal? Doesn’t need to be anything fancy, just a small thermal barrier, so paper thickness, cut past the o-rings, and punch for the manifold mounting holes, and just sandwich. :coffee:
:eek:
If you want to experiment with that ( if at all possible ) then we ought to be doing it on the existing engine first :coffee:
Would we need a cam trigger as well ??
I was just thinking about it, and think it is a real disadvantage for the V6, single turbo and fast throttle response.. just adds up. Sure I may be thinking about this in too purest way, but my gut feel is it's borne out in what you get. The .68 exh housing just kills it basically for that reason.
Yeah, good point on trying it :coffee: Cam trigger possibly, I thought there was some pseudo mode in the Adapt, but really not looked at the details, so don't profess to know. Think we really need Scoff tech input, perspective and advice from all aspects of this.
Just trying to consider all aspects of trying to screw what we can out of what's there, and throttle response is a big part. The other thing that started to bug me over the last few days has been the inlet manifold being a sponge to all the heat from the heads, hottest water taken off adjacent to the manifold on each side, turbo mounting straight to it effectively with the bracket... all ****e really, especially after trying so hard to get charge temps down, keep densities up only to darn well warm it all up again in the bed pan :rolleyes:
Something I noticed on the 3ltr heads whilst I have been playing with them last couple of days (saw before but didn't really take too much notice), is the water jacket is shortened on the inlet ports compared the 2.5ltr turbo castings. This has been done deliberately to reduce heat soak. The n/a and Ren 30 had insulation spacers (+o-rings for seal) between the inlet manifold and the heads..
When you are pushing the det limit, fuel, temps, rear engine and boost...
Smokin :smokin:
Hi Martin
I'm not sure what you considered a cycle to be, but full sequential injection is probably what you want. Full sequential will fire 6 times in each 720° cycle instead of just 1 like batch. Here's the problem though, the ECU has only 4 injector outputs, not the 6 required for sequential. The ECU would need to know cam angle too, already mentioned.
The only other option you have without installing cam angle would be to fire all injectors at once, at each 120° period. That comes with a whole new set of problems though, when you think of the frequencies those injectors are being asked to work at.
As you've said though, the difference it might make is likely be barely worth while, better to get it built up and running with batch for now. Fine tuning can come later :)
Here's one for you to ponder though, there is another option called half sequential (cam angle input required).
Using 3 of the 4 injector outputs, 2 injectors per lead, the ECU firing cycle will look like this:
O/P 1 @ start of 1st 120° period
O/P 2 @ start of 3rd 120° period
O/P 3 @ start of 5th 120° period
Chris, checked the details, and the Renix has a slight advantage, it fires batch every 120 deg (each cylinder TDC), so three injection events per 360 deg cycle.... this may make a big difference compared the Adaptronic in this application... what do you think? :coffee:
I think I'd better bolt it all together ......Cold start is my main concern as far as the ecu goes .I think it may be down to crank speed .
Cock !!! ....Starter motor all fits great ,fits to dowel and managed to re position new holes for the two others nicely but .........The starter gear is permanently engaged as the new protrudes 10mm beyond the mount face and the old is only about 4mm :disagree:
The throw is a bit more as well but that might not matter
I haven't got any room to move it back as the solenoid/terminals will hit the engine mount .
All I can think to do is grind half the length off the starter gear teeth and hope it still engages enough ??
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Chris, checked the details, and the Renix has a slight advantage, it fires batch every 120 deg (each cylinder TDC), so three injection events per 360 deg cycle.... this may make a big difference compared the Adaptronic in this application... what do you think? :coffee:
I think that will be the same as Adaptronic, no ? Each 120° there is an event, so that's 3 in 360°.
Lee, if you remove some off the gear you will need to re-apply the chamfered edges to each tooth to help it engage, I guess.
will the starter ring move further back on the flywheel ? not sure if they're sweated on like the R5 and others, or part of the wheel.
It's a one piece deal . Nothing possible on that side of things .
It a real pisser as apart from that it all fits great albeit very close to the exhaust manifold :agree:
If I had a bit more room at the engine mount it would be relatively easy but I had to cut the main terminal down as it is to get it in there ...
Any idea how easy it is to get that gear spindle out to work on ??
oh bum.. may need the guts out of a Laguna starter then - gear and lever engage arm. I think I may have the bits, as I had to build one of of two for the other one. It can be stripped right back, the gear hits a wire ring as an end stop (I don't think you can fully see it), as I remember I just pressed it over or hit it hard, forget now, there was a simple trick to it, when I have a look I will remember :p Let me check before it emulates a certain water pump :D
Worse comes to worse we'll have to shorten it in a lathe .. :crap:
But the starter did come off a Alfa V6 so got to be some mess'in with it to do bodging some justice :laugh:
I think that will be the same as Adaptronic, no ? Each 120° there is an event, so that's 3 in 360°.
Am I losing the plot, I thought it was 1 batch event in 720° on the current setup? Batch fire every two crank revolutions... doesn't seem right as you say. Think I'm confused now, but the source of that info was Stunned on RAOC in one of your discussion threads with him... :scratch:
Am I losing the plot, I thought it was 1 batch event in 720° on the current setup? Batch fire every two crank revolutions... doesn't seem right as you say. Think I'm confused now, but the source of that info was Stunned on RAOC in one of your discussion threads with him... :scratch:
Yes, 720° in batch mode, I was talking about half-sequential injection. Most 4cyl factory ECU's from the 80's and 90's run batch every 720°. It doesn't impact the fueling as much as might think. Rapid transients more so but the asynchronous pump effect works well to difuse those problems it seems. With the V6 you can almost run batch without a throttle pump at all, they're so lazy to pick up compared to a lightened 4cyl.
Silly idea with that water pump anyway :p
I'll leave it be until you've had a gander in the shed :agree:
Cock !!! ....Starter motor all fits great ,fits to dowel and managed to re position new holes for the two others nicely but .........The starter gear is permanently engaged as the new protrudes 10mm beyond the mount face and the old is only about 4mm :disagree:
The throw is a bit more as well but that might not matter
I haven't got any room to move it back as the solenoid/terminals will hit the engine mount .
All I can think to do is grind half the length off the starter gear teeth and hope it still engages enough ??
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just an idea Clee,
the positive terminal post on the starter has a square end on it, which is trapped by the moulding at the end of the solenoid. - i had one snap on me once internally and i had to smash the post off to free the starter motor (long story), so basically i'd have said instead of messing with the ring gear, either grind the post right back flat to the plastic moulding, then weld a bent tag and another stud over the edge of the solenoid body, making sure you insulate it! - or, grind the moulding right back, remove the whole post and solder a big funking wire off that and then attach the positive wire to that. - should have enough room then.
failing that, get the grinder on the engine mount....
Certainly the better option :agree:
I think there is just enough room to move it back but it will touch so there might be some scope to shorten things ,needs to be moved back about 5 mm I think ,will have to have a good measure and pack it out to see .
It will just mean I have to lift the engine off the mount to take the starter off when it's in situ .
7mm and it's clear ...just ,6 and it was just clipping . Will need to shorten the terminal and make up some flying leads ,also ground a bit off the mount but it should work :)
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you could also grind the nut to half thickness.
.. there you are made to measure ;):laugh:
4 degrees and drizzle forecast for tomorrow so I think it's time to drop the guts out of the GTA and chivvy things on a bit .....Pivot time again for old JIL ....My farm jacks are shagged tho so will have to do it with trolleys:scared: You 5 boys don't know you're born :cooter:
If you lived closer id love to help :)... but mmmmmm
If anyone wants to pop round and offer words of encouragement then more than welcome .You can pick up some Club clobber as well whilst you're at it :laugh:
whats wrong with the jacks ?
They were cheap and the climbing mechanisms fecked off .The pins are OK but the actuators don't work properly.I don't trust them .
It'll just take longer with the trolleys as they are a tad too short on lift . Anyone with 2 high lift jobbies local ??
ah. can you not squeeze some more fluid into the trollies instead ? all of mine have always leaked over time, need regular top ups with brake fluid :D
I'll plonk them on some lumps of wood to get more lift .It just takes a lot longer as you're forever swapping sides etc ....I'll get the SAS on the case to help out if he comes out of hibernation ;)
Got to undo the gear linkages and that's it ready to come out :)
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Fin ...Bumper off and a couple of blocks on the engine trolley and height was not a problem with the std jacks :cool:
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Stripped ...I'm sending the frame and associated stuff off for a blast then I'll paint it .Not to keen on powder coating .
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Getting a bit ahead of myself but I also need to look at the rear geometry as there is no adjustment apart form toe :scratch:
Need to look at slotting the top arms or non-concentric stuff but of course it'll be all custom :sad2:
Extract digit time on this for me :coffee:
Blue car should be out the way by month end so that gives me April to finish JIL enough to test and map early May .Pod may be possible :burnrubber:
Useful find in the 5gtt parts bin ...I may need an uprated one though ;)
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Lee, just had a thought, do you want to borrow my Crypton engine analyser / tuner, would it help? Full scope, various diagno tests and cylinder kill stuff, all the leads, proper integrated timing light etc etc. I don't have the multi-gas head for it anymore, but I haven't used it in years and just sitting under the bench getting dusty. I don't want to sell it, but if it's going to help you in your various endeavors then I would be happy to see it used, plus I know it's in good hands. Had for the rolling road, but that's gone now... :cry:
:)
Thanks matey .I'll look after it for you ;)
Final fit on starter
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Feck me ...it only bloody well works :)
http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/?action=view¤t=MVI_5503.flv
Hey brilliant :agree::):agree:
Keep the dims on the spacers, I'll get one in :)
It all seems to fit .I need to grind a bit out of the Turbo mount plate to get better access for bolts but everything else works :cool:
Can't get the 3 liter ' Y ' pipe in though Martin ,the inlet plenum won't seat with it in place .
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Here you go, need to do something like this. Want the heat away from the inlet manifold anyway. I machined a groove in the copper pipe to retain a ring of JB Weld type stuff, and wetted both the inside of the Y and the copper tube up with JB and hammered the copper tube in as deep as I could get it in. Think I have more tube left, will check and knock up two. Believe me it's not coming out, and the seal is hard on, and should always be in compression :p
I'll get sawing then :agree:
It still touching though .....the main OD is still hitting the bottom of the manifold , it'll have to be flattened quite a bit :crap:
Are those 3l heads on that build ? That would explain it as the 2.5l manifold needs spacing to fit on that combination :agree:
Ah yes sorry bud, poor memory is a good thing- you forget the pain... yes 3ltr heads and manifold and it was all tight on that as well. Nearly didn't have a way to get water from the left to the right to go back out. Cut and welded loads of bits from the 2.5ltr and 3ltr in some strange combinations... the left head exit is one part of a 3ltr Y divider with a tube welded on for the hose, the stat housing is cut'n'shut to a 2.5 exit stub out what was the bypass to make a swirl pot... twaz nightmare... and of course no room for the pump...
the atmo spacers are about 2mm thick, I'll go grab one and measure it, but they sit outside the o-rings, so how are we going to get the manifold to seal... aah probs atmo o-rings are bigger diameter :scratch:
Can you get a pic so I can see? Can we mill off some meat from the mating flanges on the Y that bolt to the block? How much do we need to lose?
The other thing was the copper pipe tends to point up as well, well it did to try and make an even glue line around it's periphery. Blast... double blast...
Is the GTA 'Y' really that bad ?
know it looks biased to one side but how does it actually flow ? Worth putting a hose on it to see ?
Could chop the join bit off leaving two angled outlets then fix in one of these to form a true Y ..
http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/universal-modular-y-piece-ucy-4942-p.asp
ha-ha+ yes it's pretty ***te... yes done the hose trick (why said in first place... but may be my hose :)) and you will see you only get one wet foot :) nought or nearly nought comes out the other side until you restrict the right side. Think this happens to some degree by the return flow joiner from the two heads (seems to restrict the right side head) in the original config, total rubbish way of doing it IMO.
Yes sounds and looks good... just getting a flange on there to clamp to, need some ally tube of the right size and will have to weld on - if I'm understanding correctly like. ;)
Modded bellhousing back on box .Lot's of little bits becoming big bits to bolt together very soon :)
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when you ran this on starter, did the rockers hit the rocker cover? kinda curious for obvious reasons ... PRV MAF1.. by way I know what this is going to sound like now, most gratfying :):):)
Ran it with covers off so I dunno ......haven't heard or seen them lift turning by hand though ,will check .
Big Steve - Raider
08-04-2010, 21:15
Good on you getting a little write up in this months PPC mag Clee! :niceone::cool::cool:
Ahh ,well ...it was more of a plug than a write up but it did scan well I thought :)
Hope to make real progress in the next week .Big bolt together Sun/Mon and try and fire it up on the deck to run the cams in .It might mean some bodges to do it but they will be undone before Pod .
Subframe finally blasted .......Good guy though and local .Etched and then top coated as soon as I got it back in the garage .
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Lots of big bits become bigger bit :cool:
It will all have to come apart again as I need to make up some bits and mod some others but I can see it being in and running very soon :agree:
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Remote oil filter , sensor plate and take off for oil cooler .Turbo oil drain to sort now and it's done enough ready to plumb up on the floor and fire it to run cams in :scared:
This weekend should be noisy :devil:
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:devil::burnrubber::devil:
Mr F :pimp: Thanks .
A bit to do and no POD for Clee I fear but it's not far off melting the tarmac .....
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/th_MVI_5939.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/?action=view¤t=MVI_5939.flv)
Needs must ...so this is going in and the std inter cooler is being converted to a rad ....
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Andrew Cooke
27-04-2010, 13:09
you do know that intercoolers make bad radiators, and vice versa?
How bad ? I'm strapping a fan to it as well .
It just needs to work until I can get a rad made to fit the old intercooler space .It is not long term .
I was more concerned about the £80 chargecooler but it looks solid enough ......
Andrew Cooke
27-04-2010, 13:32
How bad ? I'm strapping a fan to it as well .
It just needs to work until I can get a rad made to fit the old intercooler space .It is not long term .
I was more concerned about the £80 chargecooler but it looks solid enough ......
Bad enough that you'll feel bad about the effort you put in to making it fit. You'd be better off using an old heater core, better yet, pull a radiator off something small in the scrappie - you might even find one with an electic fan attached... I think my K10 Micra one was on the small side?
Andrew Cooke
27-04-2010, 13:34
or motorbike...
Wot bout this then ? Just pulled it out ...GTA heater matrix ? 6" x 8" core ??
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Andrew Cooke
27-04-2010, 14:04
Wot bout this then ? Just pulled it out ...GTA heater matrix ? 6" x 8" core ??
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should be better, although those fine fins are likely to get mullered by insects and road debris.
Ahh but... don't forget where this will sit ;)
Turbo oil drain .It's a bit tight but I think once the headers are wrapped it'll be OK .
Pirtek Derby while u wait :smokin:
61226121
Andrew Cooke
28-04-2010, 17:41
do you know the temp spec of that hose? I had a problem errm, ahem, 20 yrs ago... with a braided clutch hose on an F3 car, we melted it and it wasn't as close as that.
It's ptfe not rubber but temp ? I dunno ?
My own fault it's tight :o I didn't allow for the length of pipe to go over the fittings both ends .
I keep looking at it ......... have just cut another std drain pipe down to get another one made up tomorrow :agree: 100mm longer and the pipe bend at the bottom 60 rather than 45 .They might be able to just cut the pipe off and re-do it ??
It was £30 so not too painful and best in the long run
TrixNFlix
29-04-2010, 18:48
That looks bob on, nice bracket too, no melting for you.:smokin::agree:
It's in for real ,runs well ,chargecooler done ,clutch is OK :devil:
Had it out for a spin and it feels fine .Time to bed the rings in then off to POD on Friday .It won't be mapped and the turbo is way to small but hope to get some mapping done at Pod :burnrubber:
63196320
Excellent
Put 80 miles on the engine on the run down to Pod .
Mr Scoff spent an hour or so mapping the new setup and before you know it the clutch is slipping :devil:
13.2 @108 I think was the best with the dodgy clutch and 18psi .
Loads of power still to come we all think so good job well done to all concerned .Martin F especially for a top notch bit of headwork :smokin:
Next job is to put this in so no more popping to the offy or gentle Sunday drives :scared:
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It breathes so much better than the standard engine, evedent because the engine just kept needing more and more fuel the higher we got with RPM's. There is a lot more to come from that engine without a doubt, good job guys. Lee, I will look at injector duty in the new map today for you.
Excellent
Put 80 miles on the engine on the run down to Pod .
Mr Scoff spent an hour or so mapping the new setup and before you know it the clutch is slipping :devil:
13.2 @108 I think was the best with the dodgy clutch and 18psi .
Loads of power still to come we all think so good job well done to all concerned .Martin F especially for a top notch bit of headwork :smokin:
Next job is to put this in so no more popping to the offy or gentle Sunday drives :scared:
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Nice one Lee:) what do you reckon the bhp will be? must be pushing 300 ish....
I think it will push past 300 Steve :agree: It just keeps on going .Rev limit is set at 7400 at present .
Funny you mention the clutch slipped. I watched the last run and I could hear it and instantly thought it wasn't coping.
It breathes so much better than the standard engine, evedent because the engine just kept needing more and more fuel the higher we got with RPM's. There is a lot more to come from that engine without a doubt, good job guys. Lee, I will look at injector duty in the new map today for you.
Thanks Chris. Great to meet you, and really appreciate your time and help yesterday transforming the way she was running... huge amount invested in one form or another, and on a scale of 1 to 10, it was an 11 wanting to hear it sing. So real thanks mate, and you're an all round nice chap too :)
When you both (Chris & Lee) are happy with the map I would like to compare to my torque and power curve model and see where it sits. Would like to get a power / torque pull curve off dyno at some stage, as the development of the cam profile was focused on achieving flow potential, LCA was kept as standard at 112 deg, and timing only increased to achieve the lift requirements. For track duty I think we may need some more tweaks, but will need feedback from Lee as to how it drives / performs etc, but following Lee back certainly sounded crisp and shifting nicely. Lee, how did the spool compare to previous?
The head is safe to over 8500 rpm, if you drop a gear etc. The valve gear masses are now down and comparable to my Fiat stuff, and that track red-lined at over 9k rpm. The spring set and pre-load is the same, so I know where it is as far as that is concerned. The bottom end is likely to be the main rev limiting factor, but on a feel good factor I think she should hold sustained 7500 and set a cut at around 7800 ish. From memory (I will check my notes - project started over a year ago now :scared: opps), I think the power should peak around 7200rpm, so going to need to swing past that for shifting :coffee:
As to power, aim 300 at the wheels, or I will have eat my hat or blame it on the gearbox! ha-ha+... but depends so many things ;) .. just writing the excuses, laugh...
Excellent .
Loads of power still to come we all think so good job well done to all concerned .Martin F especially for a top notch bit of headwork :smoking
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Thanks Lee, and a pleasure :) thanks for the faith and understanding when it all seemed to be going backwards :) so thanks for keeping the faith!
I looked for the upgrade coupler material not found it yet, will ask the gear chaps. The original is EN24 and the input shaft is EN36 from the
checks that were done a few years back, not sure of the exact grade. Will be worth looking for a cheap 4 spider diff from a UN5 master gearbox, but see how we get on first.
Can you send me the dims we took off the turbo, will try and workout it's spec, thanks.
Great day!
TNT ANDY
22-05-2010, 17:34
Nice to see the V6 coming on Lee sounded very good and saw the 13.2 pass. Dint arf shift for a big boat, glad it's working out for ya - you have a good team on your side.
Martin ,I will if I can find it .
Bit of a mad day today . RATS is full .Upset all the neighbors with trailers and shuffling .You wait ages for one and then .....Poor old JIL is relegated to the outdoors ,after yesterday that surely is not right :sad2:
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Thanks Andy .Yes top team :agree:
It weighing in at 1085kg ish without my sizeable bulk so getting that rolling needs some oomph :D
We need some bigger injectors ,bigger CC rad and some other tweaks but I'm going to get it all together before I pull the lump again .Might also swap gearbox for a GTA atmo one and beef that up .Nat Day must happen for me though to really see how it goes on track proper .
Martin got a few vids of the test runs .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu-FWNg39oc
Just been looking over my numbers again, and need to revise previous, good health and poor memory and all that ;), 7200 was right but that's where the power starts dropping off. Peak torque is going to be around 5800 - 6000, possibly a bit lower on that turbo (5000 -ish) and peak power 6800 -ish but slow-ish curve, and should hold up well past 7200 rpm. 7500rpm soft limit seems reasonable, lights-up from 4k, so want your gear shifts to drop you no lower than 5k if possible, so worth checking your cogs :p
Don't know how that fits with your current fuel curve Lee?
......looks like I need to take the step off the flywheel and get it re-doweled ,make up a bearing carrier to fit an existing carrier plate and possibly rebate the crank bolts ....but other than taht it's a perfect fit :laugh:
Sorry Martin ,I know you were wanting to swing on a scaffold pole but the man made me do it :D
You have a small lathe don't you ??
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Did tony @ techcraft help you out with that one lee ?
Looks great :) :agree:
Lathe, yeap, what do you need to swing?
Yes Scoff ,very helpful chap .Even gave me a discount :)
Serendipity on the release bearing Martin .Don't need to make up a carrier :cool: Center is bob-on ,just had to remove the outer plastic surround to allow the new bearing to spin .
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The standard mount with a little fettle and the new bearing fits . Just need to skim off the step and redrill the fly .
It is all working out slightly lower than the Master setup so will be very near to std GTA heights :cool:
Dropped the flywheel off down Leicester for machining and get home to find this on the doorstep :devil:
Shown next to std GTA :laugh:
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TNT ANDY
07-07-2010, 17:27
Dropped the flywheel off down Leicester for machining and get home to find this on the doorstep :devil:
Shown next to std GTA :laugh:
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That should do it:)
dave j gtt
11-07-2010, 02:51
Cool project like the engine build :cool: good stuff ;)
Cheers Dave :)
Big boy fitted and adjustable 1:1 fuel reg .
Just need to chase up the skimming of the fly and it's back in .Martin has organised a RR day on the 6th for some testing .A few Alp lads are turning up to play so I hope to impress :D
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Finally got the fly back after skimming .The fly retaining bolts are a bit tight for clearance relative to the new paddle .The spring retaining plate is pressed and the upstands only narrowly miss .Rebate the heads 1.5mm with a full rad so no stress raisers and grind off the offending edges that " might " foul when worn a bit .
Hopefully all back together by Monday then I can release some others and get some space back .
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:):cool: very nice! I can feel the boost going up until the piston lands go pop :D
..... cut and weld Big Jim downpipe .
The new turbo turbine housing's sits higher than a Garrett .63 so the silencer hits the rocker cover now :mad:
All chopped and tacked ,should be done tomorrow then just waiting on a date for mapping next week .
Sorted innit :cool: Big Jim is even bigger :devil:
I'm debating where to cut it off but I kinda like it as it is :cool:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/image1-3.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/image2-3.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/image7.jpg
Also decided on the charge cooler rad setup .Will put the big rad in the bonnet and plumb it in series with the now redundant heater matrix . Fan to cool but I could
put a scoop in the bonnet if it needed it . Bonus is I will now have some heat back in the cabin for the colder days :coffee:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/image3-1.jpg
TNT ANDY
29-07-2010, 19:48
I'd cut that back fella, I might need to take a leak at national day after a few scoops, and looking around for a likely receptor. :laugh:
:laugh:
That's why I'm gonna fit one of these :cooter:
http://gizmodo.com/images/2006/05/spinnerexhaust.gif
:laugh:
That's why I'm gonna fit one of these :cooter:
http://gizmodo.com/images/2006/05/spinnerexhaust.gif
very cool!!! :wasntme:
yeah id cut it back on an angle...slash cut stylee ftw!!! :agree:
Aiiii ....OCC Baloney Cut FTW :cool:
But before that :devil::devil::devil:
Mr Scoff ! Mr Clee will see you now ;)
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/th_MVI_6574.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/?action=view¤t=MVI_6574.mp4)
big kid :D
we'll see what we can do one day next week lee.
Lol :) ... just looking at your pic, is that some flame decal you have stuck on the back there?? :laugh:
ha-ha+ idiot... must be the tea, just realised it's your number plate! Does kinda look like some BBQ warning thingy... must remember eat more veggies...
Charge cooler in and plumbed , not 100% exactly where it will end up so just lightly secured for now until I decide where and what bonnet scooping . Heat shielding done .Big turbo and injectors in with new plugs and all ready for tune :cool:
Not sure about the pipe , it might just get cut off @ 90 :coffee:.
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Issues today when mapping ...
The waste gate is not big enough :(
I need to make up a spacer plate to give the penny arm somewhere to go that doesn't then restrict the divorced pipe :roll:
Mapped it up to about 20 psi but it just kept creeping and showed no sign of stopping ,hitting nearly 2 bar :scared:
It needs the hole opening up on the turbine housing and a flow path creating in the spacer around the penny arm .Either that or I will have to put a remote wastegate unit on .This will mean putting an adapter block between the collector and the turbine housing and all new oil pipework etc .
Clutch is also an issue .It will work but only just and gets worse the hotter it gets .Need to get aout another 3 mil movement I think so will try and space the slave off a tad to give it this .Quick and easy job ,if it works ,if not it's all out and space the thrust bearing .
Other than that all seems good .The charge cooler setup seems to be doing the job and the main rad ducting has brought the temps way down and does it very quickly once back on the move .
Big thanks again to Scoff for his time and expertise :) and also for not ****ing me round the head when we discovered my tiny icle error that meant we chased our tails for a good hour or so :o Nuff said :laugh:
Woznaldo
07-08-2010, 02:03
It's getting there Lee. Can't wait to see what the engine is capable of.
Spaced out slave .Will just have to see if it's any better .If not , sleeve the slave to get more actuation .
Just need to get the turbo machined and if that stops the creep I might just make Mallory for some light track action :cool:
7206
Machined out the wastegate areas .Need to finish off with grindage .
I'm not 100% that it will cure the problem , will have to see .
A couple of other ideas ...restrict the movement on the arm so that it does not enter the pipe on big booooost so much
or just bin the whole divorced wastegate pipe idea and open it back up to the main downpipe to vent .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/image9-1.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/RATS/image10.jpg
I think you will need that spacer as well lee. If we are making it creep at only 'low' power then it'll have even more of a job to keep boost in check at higher power.
I think I've confused the issue thinking about a spacer .The penny arm is fully contained within the housing so the only way to open up the path is to allow it to swing back a full 90 degrees and effectively " come out " of the wastegate housing but that would be stretching the actuator beyond all reason .This is where a spacer plate would come into it .
I think the best option would be to restrict the arms movement so that it does not then obstruct the exit . A blob of weld would suffice behind the arm ? Paul B and I were having a closer look at it last night and he was opting to go back to a std discharge :scared::eek:
I've just got a new 34 actuator as well as the old one was well fecked :laugh::o
Put a spacer in and mill out the whole cavity behind the penny? Looks like the most likely solution. Have you been able to increase the port through the scroll? Can also blend this in and around, normally this just has a sharp edge, radius in nicely. Looks like you have given a nice edge for gasses going past than diverting off
:)
[quote=clee;170275.The penny arm is fully contained within the housing so the only way to open up the path is to allow it to swing back a full 90 degrees and effectively " come out " of the wastegate housing but that would be stretching the actuator beyond all reason .[/quote]
If you add a thick spacer plate behind the actuator arm side, you can then open out the complete divorced cavity behind it (in the old cast housing), so the gas doesn't need to turn back behind the penny again. It needs to pass it's edge, but can slow in the increased cavity space. Remove all the material behind the penny to the sealing edge of your flange and the inserted section of tube closing off the main path i.e. a big hole. Then your thick spacer plate "drilling" will collect from this entire area and cone back to the diameter of your divorced pipe. You should be able to do that in 3/4 to 1 inch without too much drama - just lots of grinding to get the shape.
The penny will still be in the flow path, but be sufficient area for the gas to expand around it. I think it should work.
The other option would be to cut some of your divorce insert out, so some gas could return via the original route, not ideal I agree.
The standard T3 discharge is a horrible thing, please don't refit that :crap:
Re the blob of weld business, it's academic because if the actuator is trying to push that far it means we have more boost in the manifold than the actuator wants to see. In other words if the penny gets as far as its mechanical restriction then we will see creep thereafter - problem not solved.
A spacer is the guaranteed fix even if it's only 10mm or so. Just opening the wastegate port will mean the peny isn't having to move as far off the seat though, so actually it may suffice as it is. Suck it and see ! It might let us get some kind of tune on it for now.
I'm sucking it and the clutch tomorrow ,will let you know ;)
Have scanned in a gasket ( with wastegate hole :o ) so I can get a spacer CNC'd .Will see if it's needed :)
It's still creeping so I've now put zero preload on the new actuator and am off to test on a RR tomorrow .That way I can see what the arm is doing .......On half a hole it kept rising with no stall , on a quarter it will hold a little then rise .....The new actuator starts to move at 17psi .
I can't get enough clear road round these parts at the minute and trying to get out of town is a nightmare due to roadworks :mad: so the RR will at least mean I can get some decent testing done ..
Clutch seems a bit better but still not good for fast shifting so that is going to require some more development .Increase the master bore seems favorite .
Basic low boost runs .The creep will not go away so it's either rework the wastegate and put a spacer in or go external .
Only ran it up to 5.5k and about 1 bar .This at least will give us a starting point .
7239
Hi Lee, ... yes I'm doing a WAD ;)
Going back to these two things:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=15938
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=17386
comp 76.3/50.6 44
turbine 65.25/56 73
I'm not convinced that arrangement is well balanced anyway, and may be struggling because of that?? The late torque build is due to spool, fair enough with the size of turbine and the energy required to get it going, but once up and running that turbine is generating so much torque to drive that compressor we are out stripping demand in lower revs to the point the waste gate needs almost to pull most of the energy past the turbine... need some input from the turbo experts on here.. past my zone :agree: But my gut feeling is the internal penny isn't going to make it... :coffee: ummm
Yes please ,Turbo experts :agree:
Go back to the Pod turbo ? I think so :coffee:
Getting a 3/4" spacer made as we speak .If that does not do the trick then back to the 60 trim one from POD and see how we go :agree:
As long as lag is acceptable then the fact the new turbo needs a bigger wastegate is a good sign. It isn't asking for as much energy and so the gate is now struggling to get rid of the excess. Don't go backwards by fitting the old turbo.
Andrew Cooke
19-08-2010, 08:34
have you looked how far open the valve is at the boost you're seeing? A softer actuator spring might allow it to open more.
Yes that was the main reason I put it on the rr .
The new actuator is holding 1 bar ,no pre load ,then swings open about right by the looks .
The old one I took off starts to move at 8psi but I was getting more creep on that but that was before I opened things up .
I will get this spacer and then post up a few pics of the wastegate ,downpipe and see what/where to remove material .
...or we go twin turbo... now :devil:
Andrew Cooke
19-08-2010, 18:45
...or we go twin turbo... now :devil:
may as well, the show season is almost over :D
Lots of grinding to do .
I can get a huge lump out from around the arm .And open up the hole in the downpipe to the bore of the pipe as it's way off to one side .This should all give me 100% more discharge area :agree:
726272637264
Andrew Cooke
21-08-2010, 16:49
how much pressure do you have to put into the actuator to get it that far open?
Too much :laugh: It won't ever swing back that far .
I've opened things up a lot now so if this doesn't cure it then I'm going to have to look at an external setup or different turbo .Not sure I need the spacer ...I have the hole in the downpipe divorce pipe flange opened right out to the pipe bore so can do no more .
7265
Andrew Cooke
21-08-2010, 19:17
Too much :laugh: It won't ever swing back that far
that's where a softer actuator/reduced preload and a boost controller might help (I think your ECU does this anyway if you have the solenoid fitted)
Will have to see if this doesn't work .I must have 100% more volume around the arm and no step to pipe now .
Martin was thinking about using a twin port actuator to get more travel ? Failing that then we could look at some ECU boost control but I'd rather KISS :laugh:
Still creeping but better .I just can't get rid of enough gas :mad: it will hold steady for a bit longer but then just builds and builds .I daren't keep my foot in to see where it stops :coffee:
I'm going to plonk the weak actuator on .It starts to open at 7 and is maxed out at 22 moving 15mm .The new one starts at 15 and was 15mm at 30 psi which is the most my hand pump will go .
It's a testiment to the engine, just an annoying one :)
Maybe a 44mm external is in order. I don't mind coming down to do the fab if you can get hold of a gate and source the stainless etc. You'd need to borrow a mig too, my stuff is a bit big to cart around.
:)
Thanks Chris .
I think the whole divorced pipe idea has reached it's limits .Are we talking the same setup you suggested last time out ? Put an adapter between the collector and housing ?
Just need to get some bits together .I can't find any takeoff adapters that big ?? 35 seems to be the largest .
:)
Thanks Chris .
I think the whole divorced pipe idea has reached it's limits .Are we talking the same setup you suggested last time out ? Put an adapter between the collector and housing ?
Just need to get some bits together .I can't find any takeoff adapters that big ?? 35 seems to be the largest .
Is there no space in that Y pipe to take a pipe off at 45° to the wastegate ? We can weld into cast if we have to.
Andrew Cooke
25-08-2010, 19:26
Still creeping but better .I just can't get rid of enough gas :mad: it will hold steady for a bit longer but then just builds and builds .I daren't keep my foot in to see where it stops :coffee:
I'm going to plonk the weak actuator on .It starts to open at 7 and is maxed out at 22 moving 15mm .The new one starts at 15 and was 15mm at 30 psi which is the most my hand pump will go .
what's your target boost?
Y pipe ?
Y pipe, connecting the branches from each bank, before turbine inlet.
No room in the collector .They join like so and besides the bulkhead is in the way .
729372947295
Target boost is mid 20's , though we want to see just how far it can be pushed . I want it for track not Pod primarily .
On my old setup(gta) I had an external wastegate pipe comeing off the exhaust houseing.and it worked perfect
Andrew Cooke
25-08-2010, 20:09
ok, so at 22psi (ignoring the backpressure blowing the wastegate open) you'll go from being 7mm open to 15mm open. That ought to make a difference.....
:coffee:
Off the turbine scroll ? Martin has it but we were not sure just how well it would work .
What boost were you running Steve ?
ok, so at 22psi (ignoring the backpressure blowing the wastegate open) you'll go from being 7mm open to 15mm open. That ought to make a difference.....
:coffee:
Std swing on the arm is about 10 mm max before it fouls on the housing .I can get the full 15mm movement now on the machined housing so the actuator is the limiting factor .
I got sidetracked today fitting an aerial to a neighbors camper van which meant removing half the feckin interior :mad: so I haven't had chance to test the low hold setup .
Is this what you found lee ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/T3-T3-EXHAUST-ADAPTER-FLANGE-35mm-WASTEGATE-FLANGE-/290467410579?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM
I think with a bit more looking you could find a 44mm version maybe. Or you could use a 38mm in conjunction with the existing internal :wasntme:
Off the turbine scroll ? Martin has it but we were not sure just how well it would work .
What boost were you running Steve ?
Its not about boost, its about volume of exhaust gas.
That's the very fella :agree:
I was running 18psi.it did work well, the only worry I had was welding to cast but that obviosly wasn't a prob:agree:
Its not about boost, its about volume of exhaust gas.
True :coffee: We mapped it beyond 20 on the std engine but ran out of turbo ,injectors and fuel :laugh:
Low boost holds at about 6psi then just creeps up the same as before with no signs of stopping so external it is .
Scoff get yer thinking cap on son and I'll start saving :D
Andrew Cooke
27-08-2010, 13:04
Low boost holds at about 6psi then just creeps up the same as before with no signs of stopping so external it is .
Scoff get yer thinking cap on son and I'll start saving :D
I thought you were looking for mid 20s, the wastegate won't even be open at 6psi, so no chance of controlling that. I think it'll control better at higher boost.
btw, my Gordini engine made 7psi with the wastegate wired open, it controlled to 20psi just fine.
What I mean is it will rise to 6/8psi then halt slightly before ramping up to 25 and beyond .I'm seeing this effect on all combination's of gate ,it's just the point at which it pauses that is altering .
I can't shift enough gas through the divorced wastegate pipe .I'm sure that's the problem .If I remove some of the the 'dam ' in the housing between the main downpipe and the wastegate this might prove the point .
Andrew Cooke
27-08-2010, 13:28
What I mean is it will rise to 6/8psi then halt slightly before ramping up to 25 and beyond .
I can't shift enough gas through the divorced wastegate pipe .I'm sure that's the problem .If I remove some of the the 'dam ' in the housing between the main downpipe and the wastegate this might prove the point .
ahh, Ok you're stuffed then :)
mind, it's gonna be a bit optimistic controlling a T3/4 with an internal gate esp with 3L of engine driving it. Just fit the twins, you know you want to :laugh:
I'm putting the 60trim one we used at POD back on for now .I need to prove a few things with a single turbo before we go twins ...Also I need a small lottery win ,not greedy ,a couple of k would suffice ;)
Scrap that ...I'm taking the dam out first and stick with the big bugger .
Agree, if necessary it's not that hard to weld in a larger tube for the divorced gate pipe. I think we could even cut and use one of the the spare GTA header tubes for the job. :coffee:
Pikey .
I really think we are just going to get the same effect to a lesser degree .I'll remove the dam and if we still get creep then fk
feck-it !! not enough :mad:
I think this is getting silly now ...+ I ran out of fuel on the dual carriageway ,sure is thirsty these days :laugh:
time for some thinking out of the box..
could you remove the penny totally, grind out the hole in the housing to 35mm or so, re-connect the divorced pipe and install an external gate part way down the divorced pipe instead. I don't know how large that divorced pipe is, maybe it'll need to be larger than it is currently and maybe you'll need to work on it a bit to be doubly sure that the divorced pipe is isolated from the turbine discharge.
Bit tight to get a bigger bore in there but possible .I still think the divorced idea is at it's limit .If we can dump the gas pre turbine then I think that will be best ?
I'm going to remove the dam completely tomorrow ,if I still get creep then I really don't know what's going on .
I remember back towards the start of this project ....there was some discussion about not having any wastegate and binning the boost via a valve/solenoid just after the compressor :scratch: Or I might have dreamt it ....Martin will know .
that would be a horrible way of controlling boost, but yes getting the wastegate in before the turbo is ideal of course. I think you'll need to be doing this, I'd be going for 44mm too I think.
Dam is now completely removed so just out to see what happens .No pre load on the new actuator .
I think Chris's idea is a good one, at least you are not completely losing the setup you have, in that it bolts up and fits etc.
I think we probably have several things going on here, the very open turbine and large diameter blades means that it's the lowest flow restriction path compared to the waste gate circuit. Had it been a more closed turbine like a std T3 (you can look straight through yours, but drive torque is generated from it's large overall diameter), then the pressure restrictions between the turbine circuit and the waste gate when fully open would have been more balanced. The net increase in back pressure would substantially increase the flow through the waste gate circuit, but we don't have that, lower back pressure is a good thing for big bhp numbers. So we need a well flowed waste system end to end for the gases to even take that circuit, at the moment they just won't, and the physical evidence is there. In fairness I don't think a turbine of the size you have now was originally considered so we are at a different point of reference.
The 90 deg flow turn from the start of the turbine volute casing in through the penny drilling is a torture and small. I really don't think we can get sufficient flow with out actually "ducting" flow into it - grinding the entry side back on a taper so the flow drives into the penny hole drilling - so you will be very thin behind the penny on the top side (entry side of the volute flange)... if you get my meaning. Then bull nose round the lower side of the penny-drilling hole so flow that passes isn’t too disturbed. We need to help the flow make that transition without too much loss. Then the rest needs to be of sufficient bore.
I don't really like the spacer plates under the turbo; I think it will suffer similar. The best is where the flow is made to transition on a divergent Y - one side is the turbo, the other is the external waste gate. I think we will be modifying old GT5's (tubby5) .68 housing to match the turbine profile, I genuinely think that's where we are going...
No dam and still the same , I'm going down the pub ...
I'm still in favour of the pre turbine route but think we need a 60mm external ;)
It's all your fault Faulks :laugh: Too much flow :devil:
Positive side is that the clutch is a lot better even on boggo dot4 and tell you what !! it don't half bloody shift as well until it hits 2 bar :laugh:
oh bum :laugh::laugh:
I'll bring up the housing Saturday, it may be easy to machine the profile... hope so...
I have a brand new external gate valve in my goody boxes somewhere, I will have a look... what was that about knowing lots of intelligent, independent, understanding, and eligible women?? Lol... I'll have a look, got to get this bloomen thing going properly before the light fades out this year! ;)
oh heck, I forgot to mention good looking :p:laugh:
Damn !
4 out of five and I'd have been able to help :laugh:
Andrew Cooke
30-08-2010, 13:18
oh heck, I forgot to mention good looking :p:laugh:
you also forgot independently wealthy with full workshop facilities and a good cook :agree:
ha-ha+ it gets better, heck I would even be a sex slave for that :laugh: ... well depends on the ratio , but 95% workshop seems fair, laugh... dream dream dream... 5% workshop and the rest general duties more like :scared: :wasntme:
back to reality, so what we doing then chap? :coffee:
I dunno :scratch:
Need a thinking session in front of all the possibles :agree:
If we know what size pipe then I can pop over to OJZ and get some .
out the box or out of his box thinking ?
Time will tell :laugh:
7360
Andrew Cooke
02-09-2010, 13:04
out the box or out of his box thinking ?
Time will tell :laugh:
7360
that's gonna need 'porting' out a bit :rolleyes:
It's a secret :coffee:
We are going to try and dump the boost :scared:
I know you do not approve but I'm after trying it as it will at best help , at worst will use it as a massive DV which we may need .
It's that MF fellas idea
TrixNFlix
02-09-2010, 19:03
It's that MF fellas idea
:laugh:
I don't think I'd want to map that Lee.
rs250nut
02-09-2010, 20:25
You guys are nutters.
TrixNFlix
02-09-2010, 20:28
I don't think I'd want to map that Lee.:D
Love it :wasntme:
I don't think I'd want to map that Lee.
:ashamed: yes I know you can blame me :cool: and I will do my lines after school and as many press-ups as you demand! Plus, I'm happy to take all the blame! I didn't blow up half a concast steel plant in Cardiff with out trying ;):p
But it is a bit of pipe we can take back, honest :) .. and I will be more than happy to eat humble pie and I told you soooos... but go on let's give it a try sir? ;)
Ok, how about this for a deal - if it's total bag of poo, it get's the external, and Lee will fab it on and we'll both go back to school!
Andrew Cooke
02-09-2010, 20:44
isn't that going to just over speed the turbo? I'd do it on a supercharger, but it sounds dodgy on a turbo :scratch:
rs250nut
02-09-2010, 20:46
So with that bit of pipe your going to try and vent boost pre manifold? Could you not knock up some sort of mainfold? I suppose if your going to do that you may as well make two manifolds and go with two turbos as mentioned earlier on in the thread
I'm sure it'll fix the problem I just think you'd introduce a whole load more.
I'd be worried about compressor efficiency, shaft rpm, turbine efficiency and charge temperature to name but a few. Then there's the chunk of power you'd be throwing away.
isn't that going to just over speed the turbo? I'd do it on a supercharger, but it sounds dodgy on a turbo :scratch:
yes - yeap that's known. But we weren't too worried about turbo longevity anyway.. wink
Technically yes and no, it really depends on the ratio of flow, hopefully it's going to offer some degree of control and not just go plain wide open - will depend on the setup. In which case, the answer would be yes.
The valve that is going on it is this: www.greddy.com/products/turbochargers/blow-off-valves (http://www.greddy.com/products/turbochargers/blow-off-valves) , and it's the type R 47mm.
Chris, I agree and know it's not ideal. The hot side external is certainly the better of the two options, and technically superior... but I'm up 10 miles from Clee on Saturday and thought if he could get an adaptor made we would give it a go whilst I'm in the area, if nothing else give Lee a smile... it's was a 10 minute chat whilst I was driving to work on Tuesday I think.
If it does control to a suitable degree, I'll datalog the pressure profile, air-off temps from the turbo, engine rpm etc and can then decide, this isn't fixed in stone, just an option. I will grab as much data as possible.
Andrew Cooke
02-09-2010, 21:43
The valve that is going on it is this: www.greddy.com/products/turbochargers/blow-off-valves (http://www.greddy.com/products/turbochargers/blow-off-valves) , and it's the type R 47mm.
pah, you need one of these:
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/forsale/fullscale/DCP_0017.JPG
Andy you're not helping :laugh::laugh::laugh: ...
Lee you had better rescue this thread... ;) ... and get me out of trouble!
Scoff - sorry!
Right I'm off to go get my bottle of gas!
I'm not getting involved in all this technical stuff .Point me in a direction and I'll follow :laugh:
At the end of the day we are pumping a lot of gas and need to expel it rapidly .It may work , it may not but it sure as hell won't blow me lump up so I'm prepared to give it a go .
Tune in next week ...same Bat time ...same Bat channel !!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/alistairk/Pappelwick-sept10/pappelwick-sept10-11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/alistairk/Pappelwick-sept10/pappelwick-sept10-09.jpg
holy rusted metal batman!!
:D
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