View Full Version : GTA project engine
Tony Walker
02-09-2010, 22:38
:( poor turbo i feel for you. Putting all that effort in, its gonna pressurise the world :D Its the rtoc rain machine.
I could lend Raj some as he's close by :coffee:;)
MoFo is crunching the data as we speak :devil:
74117412
I could lend Raj some as he's close by :coffee:;)
your damn right, give me the pressure:sad:
The initial numbers indicate that the BOV is working and the temps are looking OK ( relative to )
We ran out of road to keep my toe in but it looks like it is more stable . Actuator is set at 16psi then the BOV opens at 18/20 .I need to do some more runs and see just how stable it is .Not pushed it past 20 as the MAP needs doing above that .
16psi
65/68c out charge cooler - 105 in
20psi
87/88c out-144 in at lift 136/8 under load .
Engine bay approx 36c
20psi in 70% efficiency band calcs out to 145c in .
Hi Lee, thinking about it on the way home, probs the valve is cracking open earlier than the static test, as we have 20psi trying to open it up across it's face area, as well as the static on the diaphragm against the same spring, so likely coming in earlier than we think. Try packing the spring out so it just cracks where and when you want it.
Good day, nice door stop sarny too :cool:
Ok .
Still too high a charge temp .Need to get it down another 20c ish if we are going to stand any chance of running big boost to any effect .
The std GTA intercooler is pants but I did have this one plumbed in series before I went chargecooler and with a bit of sawing it fits just right .
I will need to get it all glassed back in to isolate the engine bay but it should work a lot better .
7599760076017602
Tarty bits ....
Oil temp,mechanical pressure and space for AFR .
Toggles for CC pump and fans ,chargetemp readout and repositioned window switches .
Space at the bottom for a push start and kill switch innit .
Have taken the oil pressure feed from the original port on the block but put the warning light on the remote filter unit that then feeds the oil cooler system .There is also a std port for OE pressure gauge on the remote plate but the sender is just reading max all the time so need to get another .
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/[IMG]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0216.jpghttp://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0216.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/image0-3-1.jpg
Intercooling solutions
http://www.ress-motorsport.de/images/upload/Angebote/Leistung/fuchs2.jpg
i l k e r
01-11-2010, 17:15
Intercooling solutions
http://www.ress-motorsport.de/images/upload/Angebote/Leistung/fuchs2.jpg
I like that, bad to the bone style :agree:
Andrew Cooke
01-11-2010, 18:01
how does fire make it cool better?:p
notice that the fire is below the intercooler so it's creating a thermal updraft and pulling the high turbulent flow though the core ....innit :agree::coffee:
http://www.ress-motorsport.de/images/upload/Angebote/Motorumbau/motor310%284%29.jpg
nice frying pan ;)
where did you get the pics from, not seen those ones?
Axel Ress stuff from a few years back .
I'm in search of my mojo mf .....
Need to get rid of a few things then crack on with a few things :coffee:
A few bits I need to get stuck together .
Adapter plates to make up a throat between collector and turbine housing .45mm external wastegate will then go on as shown .
It will need a short 2" diameter pipe to connect it's sealing flange to the " throat " and then possibly exhaust into the main downpipe .
Should be enough room for it to stick up but will have to see where the down pipe ends up as the whole assembly will be shifted up and back .I will get a hice view of it in the mirror
What do we think ?
827182728273
Yeah, looks good to me :)
A decision of momentous proportions has been made :D Discussions are ongoing but we should have some news in the new year :smokin:
Andrew Cooke
20-12-2010, 17:19
A decision of momentous proportions has been made :D Discussions are ongoing but we should have some news in the new year :smokin:
does this involve you not pressurising the world and covering it in snow?
aiiii .
Just got back from Kyoto with a bit of a flea in my ear :coffee:
Onwards and upwards with this full steam now .
Martin and I now co-own JIL for use as a full track beast .
We have decided to combine the parts bin and stick it all into JIL rather than develop 2 cars as was the plan initially .
Martin has been collecting various bits over the last few years and some of the custom stuff has already been trial fitted in another car so we have a big box to delve into .
Engine wise we will get the final figures out of the existing lump then we have two more engines in progress that will drop in as and when they/car are ready .
This means we get a lot further a lot quicker and we both get to actually use a car :devil:
I'll get some more pics up soon when I've cleared the decks .
Of course power is nothing without control :coffee: so to that end I'm stripping the whole car down and upgrading a few bits ,must be ready by start of the end of Spring if not before :scratch:
Front end running gear/suspension is all off to be rebushed etc and so is rear .
Some bits that will go on ......Done a deal with the :devil:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0440.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0438.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0435.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0441.jpg :twisted:
some very nice parts there lee,looks like your going to town on the gta:cool: cant wait to see it finished:agree:
Martins parts bin ...I've sold off the existing suspension wheels etc and that will go towards one of these .German made to FIA spec is available but checking on RHD or we will have to get a special done in the UK .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/piccage.jpg
Pictures of fancy stuff is all well and good but pictures of fancy stuff fitted to the car is better still ;) chop chop :D
:cooter:
Only just unpacked innit and I need to get a propane bottle for the new space heater .Got to to try and keep the tech guys warm or they start whinging :coffee:
Flipping heck:) Father Christmas as been busy:D Nice one, looking forward to seeing it complete Lee
Me too Steve :laugh:
I've got an Atmo coming in on Sunday for head gaskets and also got to put my sold suspension and bits on another then I need to get a 3l lump built and put in an atmo and get that rebuilt and mot'd and sold .................................
But I am absolutely determined to get this done by the time the season kicks off again .Been a bit of a crap year although the engine is going well and we should get the big numbers we were looking for on that .
Heater installed in the garage and no more boozing in the evenings .It's very easy to open a tinny and before you know it you can't be arsed when it's cold :coffee:
Alastair
31-12-2010, 17:34
Clee, looks awesome nice work Mr Christmas!
Do you know why the cage has double door bars though - interesting design:scratch:
Not sure .I'm still trying to get full info from Heigo .Must be FIA regs :scratch:
Guy I know in Switzerland has just fitted the full FIA cage .He ordered it specially and it had to be homologised so took 6 months .That's how I knew it existed,I've sent him some Adapt maps etc and he's built a bit of a racer .If I can't get any joy from them direct I will ask if he can speak to them as he's German Swiss ..
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/Adaptronic%20ECU%20Install%20GTA/BILD0219.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/Adaptronic%20ECU%20Install%20GTA/BILD0211.jpg
They do list another cage and have for ages ,just not sure on the spec etc for MSA Funnily enough the FIA one has just appeared with a price three days after I spoke to them about a RHD version :eek::coffee: Just this second noticed they have put up a load more pics on the expensive one .
http://www.heigo.de/ASP/index.asp?PID=&ACT=102&WKA=471&WKC=1&CAT=2&SCAT=Renault
http://www.heigo.de/ASP/index.asp?PID=&ACT=102&WKA=1234&WKC=1&CAT=2&SCAT=Renault
that is one sweet looking gta
Well a few things going on in the background, hope to get on to some turbo testing using the current motor as a baseline. Get some data on the cam; engine overall performance and package with the drive train for track duty. Then start off on the next project engine. Much has been done, but final decisions proving difficult as last year’s end game left us without all the info we really needed. So start to this year is going to be a bit of a compromise.
Project 2 engine will be stretched to a 73mm stroke from the current 63mm, but will largely remain on the same bore. Some of the reason is thickness and durability of the liners, available pistons and rods (forged and H beam), so constraints on what we already have, and also combustion burn characteristics i.e. it ain’t good, and a real problem for the 2V PRV. I have long had my concerns about it, but the more I look for evidence the poorer the picture looks, and really struggling with a real way to solve it. I have port bias and adding more swirl, wet flow around the inlet valve, piston crown shape, changing the chamber shape with weld (not my preferred as the heads are already prepared), and adding a second plug. Well as the photos below kinda show, the plug has been squeezed out to the only spot left without it being placed right in the wet flow from the inlet. Where there is no carbon, there is no fuel, there is no burn… so as you can see the burn is very limited… suggestions / experience / ideas on a postcard most welcome… The 3ltr head that is also shown in my finished ported form is also known, from Scoffs setting up of a couple of examples, to need even more ignition timing to get it to light up.. So I think we are going to be struggling against the age of the technology with this one, and fast and complete burn is what I’m after, but getting it will probably need drastic measures…
Above burn characteristics were of a 2.5 lump, tuned bi-turbo form, the below is of a 3ltr head, similar characteristic, fueling on this one was out, so possibly some fuel wash, but essentially the same signature...
:cool:
It'll fit , honest :coffee:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0637.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0638.jpg
My old GTA shell is over in North Wales now having a cage made to measure , hope to start putting things in and on now instead of off and out :coffee:
:)
Things going in at last .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0654.jpg
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TrixNFlix
17-02-2011, 19:05
uhhh yeah :cool::agree:
Next job is to quickly build up the rear subframe/engine/box as a dry run .I need to adjust the new driveshafts to length ,slot and fix upper arms for camber ,fit big brakes and suspension to check then drop car over and see what room we have for intercooler pipework .
then take it all apart :laugh:
TrixNFlix
17-02-2011, 19:59
Next job is to quickly build up the rear subframe/engine/box as a dry run .I need to adjust the new driveshafts to length ,slot and fix upper arms for camber ,fit big brakes and suspension to check then drop car over and see what room we have for intercooler pipework .
then take it all apart :laugh:
Loads of room :scared:
We'll see ....had enough now so will bolt running gear on and drop over in the morn ..
It's lumps'R'us here at the moment :cool: Two built , one to go ..then another due next week :eek:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0695.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0655.jpg
[IMG]http://www.rtoc.org/boards/http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0695.jpg
BluntyR5GTT
18-02-2011, 17:40
bloody hell lee that will keep you outta trouble lol
God I'm excited :hump:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0707.jpg
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Driveshafts need chopping and new circlip groove positioning .Std driveshafts are diff lengths by about 15mm so careful measuring and triple checking when on the deck under load ...Not a job I want to do on my own so will wait until MrF is up here :coffee:
A few bits I think missing ...handbrake caliper and locking rings for front dampers but that's it .Once all checked ,take apart and send bare ali bits for anodising and I can paint all the wishbones after we have set the camber and welded up a few bits for strength .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0713.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0712.jpg
Hi Lee, yes I forgot, I didn't get the second set of handbrake calipers. However, you should have all the mech right, including the wing wang handbrake cable holder arm, you will know exact what I mean when you see it? :laugh: The handbrake caliper is the Wilwood unit from Rally Design. Just order up a pair (I'll check which one it is, as there are 2 possibilities for our rotors), and take out the Faulksie slush fund ;-) Might be worth waiting until we have checked nothing else missing we may want from them?
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=562_588&products_id=8312&osCsid=di5cfn8b02pmr853liklrqluc3
Smile, looking great, kinda thinking I went a little over-board on the CVs, well one thing for sure they won't break! :p
Ah, just spotted it, you have the wing-wang brackets ;) Can you check and see if I have correctly bored the finger end out for the handbrake cable sleeve? Think I had a second go at it, and not sure it's done on that set. It was all a bit experimental, and that wasn't the best idea I must admit... you'll know when you look at it, but if it's not bored the handbrake sheath sleeve will not fit.
Great stuff Lee :agree:
wing -****-ying-yang Rallydesign ...look good to me :)
Not bored but easy fix .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/Andy001/IMG_0718.jpg
Front gear ready to go back on . Renew all brake lines next job then build up front .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0734.jpg
feck !!!
Was just about to start fitting the front gear
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/MaFa/IMG_0752.jpg
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Cage man coming over on Friday to take JIL for cage fitting ...no wheels on the wagon so need to build up a spare rear subframe and running gear and put some old ****e up front ....We should have a full cage fitted in a couple of weeks .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/MaFa/IMG_0751.jpg
Coming together, looking good matey :). Don't forget the centre spacer needs swapping over between the two halves of the caliper if you haven't already; think it's the thinner on the GTA, forget now, think I wrote it on daz box ya?
On the rears ? Yes ,not swapped them but on the list to do .****ty front gear is on the car now and rear subframe built up so just need to drop car over it tomorrow and she's ready to go for fitting :smokin:
I'm thinking about fuel lines now .Think we could do with replacing the main rigid runs front to back as they look a bit crap and if Will's were anything to go by they are a disaster waiting to happen ......the list grows but the days don't :coffee:
:cool2::goodJob:
Sneaky peak from the cageman ...it's all done and hopefully back here by the weekend :)
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/cage.jpg
Duncan Grier
16-03-2011, 11:31
Great progress sir ;)
I do love a cage!!!!!!
Nice looking engine stands :cooter:
DG
TNT ANDY
16-03-2011, 13:38
This needs to be in Terantino's 'Death Proof 2' And if he ain't doing Dp2 them he's now got a good reason to.
Great progress sir ;)
I do love a cage!!!!!!
Nice looking engine stands :cooter:
DG
:)
Done with them now Duncs ,cheers for the loan .Shout if you need them back pronto :agree:
I can't speak :smokin:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/cage/IMG_0798.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/cage/IMG_0791.jpg
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Very good :agree:
Is that 45mm cds then ? or 38mm in places ? I can't tell.
Main hoop is 45 then all the rest 40 .
Tied in/picks up to the existing roll bars ,bolted though to bottom plates and also welded to side plates off outriggers .
All in all a first class job ,very pleased with it .
Now to try and flog some to the Alp boys and try to get a bit of the design costs back :laugh::laugh::laugh:
TBH it wasn't that bad ...more than we had thought and budgeted for but I'm not complaining as the end results is spot on .
eeny meeny miney mo :confused:
9423
haha+ not tellin' lol, how did I know that pic would end up on here ;)
I'll write it up properly soon, I was going to do a thread for mid-range turbos, 350-500hp, and throw out some of what I've been looking at and see other members ideas and input.
The trigger was the issue with Lee's turbo, and looking at the balance of the turbine, compressor and engine performance. I kinda immersed myself in several texts including Watson's great book since before Christmas... wow just seen the price on Amazon, time to sell my copy :eek: 699 USD secondhand.... then thought, nah, buy the compressors in my range of interest from different manufacturers, and have a real look at them than just trim numbers and diameters... and it's been quite educational... So I will write this up if peeps are interested? :coffee: For Lee's app in JIL, looking like using his current turbine T3 phase III or IV forget now (have it written down) and a T3 / T4 60-1 compressor. Have also done the machining to hybrid a RS500 comp wheel (very light) and a GT30 turbine on a roller core, think that would be quite brutal :p
That's because you confuse the hell out of me most of the time :scratch:
I chose MO every time ..
Anyway ,whilst you've been thinking I've been grafting :cooter:
Redesigned the adjustable bush for the steering rod ends so we can now use a std Ren one instead of the £125 each Alp version that does not exist :scratch: Ren 25 ones are £8 :laugh:
Prototype cost for two is £40 + if OK I'll need to get them hardened,temp and zincplated but poss a seller to the GTA and Spider lads .I've got a price for 40 off at less than £25 a pair :)
Front all stripped out for firewall stuff ,tank and strut .The A610 here has just the right wheel dims we need so can test fit over big brakes this weekend :coffee:
Need to get a chivvy on though chap ;)
945894599460
voila innit
Now all the wear out bits are cheap bits to replace also :coffee:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0847.jpg
original
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0850.jpg
RATS
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0852.jpg
610 wheels ready to test fit for clearances ...The steelies will not work ,to small a backspace .Having some Teamdynamics 1.2s made with the same off sets as the 610 16"
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_0856.jpg
Not getting very far with this due to fixing others for others but bit of a MoJO boost for MoFo and I arrived today .I just hope the MPG calcs are correct ... :coffee::scratch:
Also just got a call from the driveshaft dude so pop over there and see what he's come up with for securing the UJs.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_1297.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_1296.jpg
Duncan Grier
18-05-2011, 13:35
Looking good sir :agree:
Few late evening you can get it out for Mallory :cooter:
DG
Nope ....mainly because I can't get it out to err get it out .
10030
Got all the bits back now ....
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_1396.jpg
But ..we've taken the heads off to check the burn and it all looks spot on .MrF is very pleased so they are now away to have some inlet valve work and whilst we're at it the bore is going to be increased out to 93 :devil:
Some of the liners have scoring so makes sense ...I think ...
Looking good there Lee, 'ole Terry has worked a nice job there, better get some spare clips off him as well, just in case... :)
He supplied some spares :agree:
Turbohead
27-05-2011, 11:05
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Nice to hear about good burn characteristics !:)
Do you strech bore just because of crappy liners or to gain some extra torque, i ask cause of the compromise to reduce liner thickness!?
Why do you create new driveshafts, are they lighter or will the oe ones be to weak?:devil:
Greets from swizz...
Hi Chris .
Liners will take it ,they are the same outside diameter in the 3l engines as in the 2.5 .
Crappy liners yes so we may as well get some more out of them .
Driveshafts are from Australia ,off road stuff that uses the UN1 and yes , OE will be too weak :burnrubber::devil:
Turbohead
27-05-2011, 17:19
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Hi Lee
:devil: Hahaha great, so i know who to ask when i've broke mines! (can i then:sad2: ? )
Yes i know that the liners are same outside diameter then the 3l ones, but i heard that they may become cracks from 3lit oe setup !? I also think about streching the bores but i'm unsure if it would not be better to have them as thick as possible, but i think one of the questions nobody can answer so it's just decide and do...:D
I think i'll go the 2.5l higher rev. then torque route, think i don't come around some slightly overmeasured forged pistons then...
Yes .we'll do it and then you will know ;)
Turbohead
28-05-2011, 08:22
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Good morning!
Hmmm...do you mean the driveshafts or the thing about the bores??... i'm really unsure if i also should strech the bores, but i think if i want to use the car for hillclimbing, the lighter engine internals of a v6 would be heavy enough!? Do you think i will stuck with the bore capacity then?
I was also talking to Martin about it, but its always interesting to hear what others think about..
Driveshafts...i think i'll talk to you when i'm doing the box..:ashamed::devil:
not much more to report .....well it looks cleaner :coffee:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_1524.jpg
BluntyR5GTT
11-06-2011, 11:02
looking good lee you never stop do ya :laugh:
was good to see you at nd:agree:
end of Summer ...what year though ...
' Nah ,it'll be as lot easier to rewire if we just take it all out '
...and with that he disappears with half the loom in his boot ......
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Turbohead
22-06-2011, 12:49
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/IMG_1638.jpg
I would also do it like you, if i had to do once more!;) Was a paint to took the whole unnucessary cable-crap out without removing the dashboard!:mad:
But now i know that it looks terrible!:cooter:
Would you tell the weight of the dashboard? It's maybe a reason to rethink!?
Front gear on .Need to chop away some of the fibreglass and let top sandwich plate in .This will carry strutbrace mounts .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/JIL%20CSCC%20FC/DSCF0048.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/JIL%20CSCC%20FC/DSCF0047.jpg
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Woznaldo
17-07-2011, 09:47
Looking good Lee. The brakes are looking cool :cool:
I'm thinking of cutting off the top of the turrets on GTT and putting a piece of flat plate steel on so I've got a 'clean sheet of paper' so to speak. How thick is the stuff you're using?
4 mil .
Front has two , one inner as well .Rear just having one inner .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/JIL%20CSCC%20FC/DSCF0051.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/JIL%20CSCC%20FC/DSCF0052.jpg
Rear turret on a customers car :sad2: Adjustable slammed to the deck and rock hard/zero travel .Fecked :coffee:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/JIL%20CSCC%20FC/DSCF0054.jpg
Woznaldo
18-07-2011, 06:16
Thanks Lee. The bottom picture didn't come out?
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g340/f305upe/DSCF0054.jpg
Post cage weight loss continues ...nothing much else has but finally managed to get a windscreen that fits correctly as well at the 3rd attempt :coffee:
4mm formed polycarb ( MSA 4mm spec )
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/DSCF0382.jpg
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Intercooler sort of boxed in .Made up with some thin ali plate .Will seal and glass in .I'd kill for a front mount :laugh:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/DSCF0403.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/DSCF0402.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/DSCF0401.jpg
Strutbrace Fin .
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/DSCF0405.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z110/cleetav6/DSCF0406.jpg
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