Project 172 [Archive] - Page 2

Andrew Cooke

06-08-2009, 18:55

Today's plan was to weld in the heater air tray, then bolt the engine in. Good plan, but it's pissing down, I've got an inch of standing water by the car.

Having given up on the welding I donned some once piece waterproofs that I bought when I had my buggy. I've been bolting stuff on, alternator, engine mounts etc. everything I bolt on now is one less thing to bolt on later. I wasn't going to look at the rear brakes until the engine was running, but since I can't weld I've been stripping off the rear beam, I need to do it to get the old exhaust off, it's nasty in the puddle... I should at least get the rear suspension fitted...

some pictures for Matt:
- new water pump, engine mount, alternator mount, and alternator tensioner
- same from another angle
- rear mount ready to be bolted on

Matt Cole

06-08-2009, 20:32

That mount looks the danglies Andy. Will the mount stop the engine from moving too much? I desperately need something to stop my engine from rocking when the power comes on and off!

Spooky

06-08-2009, 21:32

I dont think Andys engine is going to be moving much...itll pretty much be fixed from what I saw :D

Those mounts are pretty beefy too.

And, I see you've connected the alternator up on that bracket you made, that adjusting/tension/tightening arm on the alternator almost looks oe :agree: :smokin:

Andrew Cooke

06-08-2009, 23:37

the mounts are going to be on the solid end..

indeed, alternator all mounted. I must confess that the idea came to me having seen Ashy's tensioner. I just need to find a 9/16 spanner to nip the locknuts up, the joints are imperial, and the 14mm won't go on.

I hope it's a bit drier tomorrow, I'm bored of sploshing about in water. I got the rear coilovers on, I think it's going to end up lower than I expected, full droop is about standard rideheight. I've not sat it on the floor as I've been trying to graft the 172 rear brakes on. The disks look a bit worn, so I've had a rummage through my spares, the old disks off the race car look almost new, and I found a set of new pads that were in the spares box when I bought the cup car in 2002 :agree:

Andrew Cooke

07-08-2009, 11:35

The rear disks increase the rear track a bit compared to drums, I thought I'd best just throw one on to check clearance around the tyre. This happens to be a bit of a bonus as the tyres were rubbing on the inner arch before, and I was having to use spacers.

The first pic gives an idea how low this thing will be, it's at full droop, and already the tyre is tighter in the arch than it was previously sat on the ground...

The offset looks about perfect :)

Just a quick shot showing the rear coilover in situ.

Gymnast

07-08-2009, 11:45

Looking good Andy ... really looking forward to seeing this in the flesh :cool:

James5

07-08-2009, 12:04

Coming on quick now Andrew, looking fantastic. Not long til Nat Day now matey :burnrubber:

Spooky

07-08-2009, 12:20

Hmm, nice n low :D

All that talk of near standard ride height is out the window now :laugh:

Andrew Cooke

07-08-2009, 13:36

Hmm, nice n low :D

All that talk of near standard ride height is out the window now :laugh:

tell me about it, I was hoping it'd sit about where it is now, but when on the ground, not jacked up:rolleyes:

I'm not sure about 'getting there' everywhere I look I see stuff that needs doing.

Spooky

07-08-2009, 16:48

Those dampers looked really tall off of the car as well, very strange :crap:

Andrew Cooke

07-08-2009, 16:51

Those dampers looked really tall off of the car as well, very strange :crap:

true, but you should have seen the ones that came off, you'd think it was a Baja buggy..

just about to lift the engine in, bored of welding, it's not as nice as I'd like it, but it'll have to do, I don't have the time to keep tarting it up.

Spooky

07-08-2009, 16:59

cripes, good luck getting down your driveway, never mind up it :eek:

tart it up later, if needed that is...function over form and all that jazz :agree:

Andrew Cooke

07-08-2009, 21:25

look mum, no hands...

chucked the engine in, and I'm not taking it out again, it's nice to be finally putting things together.

I just tried the front legs on to see what needs machining to make them fit. Unfortunately my previous optimism that the driveshafts would fit straight on was unfounded and I'll need to get the N/S one shortened a bit. Any idea where I could get that done PDQ in a 50 mile radius?

Matt Cole

07-08-2009, 21:32

Andrew looking at that lot, i would be concerned about the 7 days in which to finish it in!!:eek:

Andrew Cooke

07-08-2009, 21:36

Andrew looking at that lot, i would be concerned about the 7 days in which to finish it in!!:eek:

what have you got to be concerned about:laugh:

Matt Cole

07-08-2009, 21:53

what have you got to be concerned about:laugh:

Ok i should have said if it was mine!!:D

*Yellow*

08-08-2009, 01:02

I'll need to get the N/S one shortened a bit. Any idea where I could get that done PDQ in a 50 mile radius?

I get mine done near Brands Hatch, if thats any good.

Andrew Cooke

08-08-2009, 01:07

I get mine done near Brands Hatch, if thats any good.

that's a bit of a haul from here, but I'll bear it in mind. Can they do it while you wait? That said, there must be somewhere in Coventry or Birmingham that can do it.

*Yellow*

08-08-2009, 09:01

I`m seeing him this morning and will ask how long they take etc.

Chris Hebden

08-08-2009, 11:08

http://www.ndeclarketransmissions.co.uk/page1.htm

Based in coventry according to a telephone number search!

Chris Hebden

08-08-2009, 11:09

http://wilsondriveshafts.co.uk/component/option,com_contact/Itemid,34/
Nottingham

:o lol my geography is terrible :rolleyes:

Scoff

08-08-2009, 11:14

Do you not know somebody with a big mig ? You could chop them, cut the castellation, tack them up and have someone weld them tight.

Scoff

08-08-2009, 11:16

Assuming they are hollow ? If not it's cut, shut and slip some heavy tube over the join and weld that in too.

Andrew Cooke

08-08-2009, 11:17

Do you not know somebody with a big mig ? You could chop them, cut the castellation, tack them up and have someone weld them tight.

I'm not sure I'd know what I was doing, don't suppose you have any pics? I don't know anyone, but I have spotted a factory welding RSJs...

Scoff

08-08-2009, 11:25

No pictures :o

If they're hollow they'll have an o.d of about 35-40mm I think. Wall thickness is about 5mm in the ones I've done. Imagine cutting a castle-top shape into each end of the cut such that they slip back together and mesh, preventing turn. You weld that up and it'll be as strong as you like. Ofcourse you have to take into account the height of the castellation when plotting where to cut, which I didn't do once and ended up with a scrap shaft after I'd cut it 5mm too short :D

Solid ones mean you have to find some heavy wall tube with an i.d the same as the shaft diamater. You cut a 45° chamfer on the ends of the cut, butt it all together and weld into the chamfer having slipped the piece of tube on first. grind it level, slip the tube over the join and weld that up tight at each end.

Andrew Cooke

08-08-2009, 20:52

I thought I ought to try and splice the 172 engine loom into the Twingo today.

I connected up what I thought I'd need to fire it up, turned the key, and nothing....

To cut a long story short there's a starter motor relay that interrupts the signal from the key to the starter and is energised by an ECU inside the Clio. It's still in the clio, so I bridged out the relay, and the car now cranks. I've got oil pressure up.

The fuel pump doesn't seem to run, I strapped the relay input that is normally controlled by the ECU, and the pump ran. 2 leaks, one from the FPR which I fixed by swapping in the one that normally lives in the clio tank, the other is the return to the tank in the top of the tank, not looked at that one yet.

So, it won't start, the fuel pump won't run, I have a horrible feeling that the ECU may be the problem, I think my next job is to get the OBD working so that I can look at what's going on. Oh yeah, I can hear the fbw throttle 'singing', so something is going on in the ECU.

Before I worry about electrics I'll get the rear disks and calipers bolted on, I need to drill and tap some M8 threads to M10, outside of that it should be pretty straight forward. Well, until I try and get the handbrake working.

Scoff

08-08-2009, 21:01

Have you gone through the ECU plug and checked for the right conditions on the important pins ? Earths, battery lives, ignition lives, volts on the relay o/p's etc ?

Andrew Cooke

08-08-2009, 21:09

Have you gone through the ECU plug and checked for the right conditions on the important pins ? Earths, battery lives, ignition lives, volts on the relay o/p's etc ?

not yet, I'm bored of electrics for today, I'd rather do the brakes in the dark :sad2:

Andrew Cooke

09-08-2009, 00:30

I got somewhere mounting the rear disks tonight. Fortunately the 172 and the twingo have bolt on spindles, I optimistically thought I could just unbolt all the clio stuff and fit it to the Twingo. Well, that's almost the case except that the Twingo spindles hare fixed with 4xM8 bolts, whereas the Clio uses 3xM10 and 1xM8. I started on the left as I'd already stripped drum off, it was a bit of a fight to tap out the rear beam, but I managed it Ok, and even slipped a bit of shim behind the spindle to add a bit of negative camber. The left went together OK.

Then I started on the right, the drum was coming off OK until one of the M8 bolts sheared off, and Sods Law it was the one that I need to keep M8. Managed to tap out the other 3 to M10 without a problem, but have so far failed to budge the sheared off bolt. I'll try welding a nut onto it tomorrow to see if I can pull it out...

Before anyone asks how much -ve camber I have, I don't know, but some....

Rob@Backyardracing

09-08-2009, 00:41

Andy if you manage to pull this together for ND i think cold beers will defo be on the cards at the end of saturday.....:agree:

Andrew Cooke

09-08-2009, 01:04

Andy if you manage to pull this together for ND i think cold beers will defo be on the cards at the end of saturday.....:agree:

if I'm still alive by ND cold beers will be on the cards:cool:

Andrew Cooke

09-08-2009, 11:42

just posted this on cliosport

I'll try and remember everything...

ECU has been converted to 'free running' by ECU Clinic. I'm using the 172 engine loom, and ECU, I've connected the throttle pedal, in the R67 connector I've connected:

white 1 - starter +
white 2 - ign switch position 2 (12V)
white 3 - fuel pump
white 6 - ign switch position 1 (12V)
white 7 - gnd for starter relay

blue 1-6 - throttle pedal

black 2 - alt light
black 5 - oil pressure light
black 8 - CAN-
black 9 - CAN+

When I switch the ignition on I can hear/feel the fbw throttle singing.

The fuel pump/ignition relay doesn't energise - if I pull the ecu line down the pump runs.

I've checked for gnd on ecu pins 3,28,33,67

I've checked for 12V on ecu pin30

I've checked for switched 12v on ecu pins 29 and 66

I have an Ebay elm327 obd reader, and using EasyOBDii software, it connects, and says the "vehicle data bus OK", but says "no vehicle response / connection or power" however I can hear a relay clicking away as it tries to connect.

any idea what's missing? or what else I should check?

thanks
Andy

Andrew Cooke

09-08-2009, 16:20

Welding a nut onto the sheared off bolt worked a treat, so now both rear disks and calipers are fitted with their camber shims. I still need to sort out the brake hoses, pressure regulator and handbrake cables.

I pulled the front calipers off the Clio, and placed them on the front with the old disks. I removed the old pads, and looking at the face I'd have said they were a rotten old bit of steel rather than the pad material that I knew they were. I guess it's just as well that I bought the new disks and pads.

Mudslinger

12-08-2009, 22:17

have you seen this andy ?

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444945

nutz:devil:

James5

12-08-2009, 22:27

have you seen this andy ?

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444945

nutz:devil:

that's fecking insane I actually quiet like

Matt Cole

12-08-2009, 22:32

well he has 1 day to complete it!! :D

Os8472

12-08-2009, 23:12

Stupid question, but what did you do with the old twingo engine?

Andrew Cooke

12-08-2009, 23:38

Stupid question, but what did you do with the old twingo engine?

it's sat on the floor

Os8472

12-08-2009, 23:44

it's sat on the floor

PM for you

Chris Hebden

16-08-2009, 19:20

Did you get it there Andrew?

Spooky

16-08-2009, 19:30

No but the Delica was doing the deed on track :laugh:

rat1

03-09-2009, 22:12

hi andy did you sort the electrics,is the twingo finished yet:scratch:

Andrew Cooke

04-09-2009, 00:24

hi andy did you sort the electrics,is the twingo finished yet:scratch:

I'm expecting the ECU back soon, although I don't have much hope of it working. I'm going to pull all of the security stuff out of the Clio as I'm pretty sure it'll work with that lot connected. If that works I'll probably convert the whole thing to PH1 and cable throttle.

Andrew Cooke

18-09-2009, 13:11

JRP

18-09-2009, 13:13

What's the betting that it's got a map for a diesel sewing machine rather than a 172?

5/4:)

James5

18-09-2009, 13:17

After a change of ECU and 4 long weeks ECU Clinic have accepted that the ECU was 'virginised' rather than made 'free running'. The former needs all the security stuff in the loom to work, and the latter works all alone. Apparently I get the ECU back next week....

What's the betting that it's got a map for a diesel sewing machine rather than a 172?

Anyone near me got an RSTuner to pull the map out of the ECU?

:laugh:Had the same problem to start with on my RStuning ECU when I had the 172 lump in the 5 it had been virginalised hence it going back and having the emulator. Is it a software change on the FBW / phase 2 ECU or is it an emulator?

Have you tried the cliosport site to see if anyone has an RStuner local to you or would hire / rent to you? I believe you will need to buy some sort of code to be able to use it on a different car to what it has already been used on.

Glad to hear things are getting nearer to completion though.

Andrew Cooke

18-09-2009, 13:30

I think you only need to pay the cash to reprogram the ECU, I don't want to do that, just check what's in it. Alternatively I can send it to a contact in the Renault Technocentre, and he'll interrogate the ECU.

It doesn't use an emulator, it's all software. I'm so close to going PH1 on everything, you guys have it so easy :D

Clio GTT

28-09-2009, 01:32

http://www.tek-tronics.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=80

You can use that emulator on the phase 1 setup after unlocking it.

Dunno if that's any help to you

Andrew Cooke

28-09-2009, 08:18

http://www.tek-tronics.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=80

You can use that emulator on the phase 1 setup after unlocking it.

Dunno if that's any help to you

as I said, the PH1 guys have it easy... still waiting for my ECU to come back...

Trevhib

28-09-2009, 11:05

Just caught up with this project. I wish you were nearer the midlands mate. GL with the rest of the build. :agree:

Andrew Cooke

06-10-2009, 20:34

Sparkie

06-10-2009, 22:55

http://www.bba-reman.com/catalogue/DetailedProduct.aspx?DetailedProduct=519

Clio GTT

07-10-2009, 19:42

OK, that's it, the PH2 fbw throttle ****e is coming off, and it's getting converted to PH1, just need to find all the bits. Ordered my emulator today, ECU Clinic are sending me my money back, and I'm pissed off.

Anyone know the easiest way to get the ECU virginised?

Flash a new map onto it with RS Tuner and then it'll be virginised, if you ask around you might be able to borrow one and get a licence for 50 EURO.

Failing that I might sell you my Ph1 ECU with emulator that has a standard map on it

Andrew Cooke

07-10-2009, 20:06

I don't know anyone with an RSTuner, and they haven't had stock of new ones for ages. I'd quite like to buy one as it has quite a few features beyond just remaps.

Adey aka Ewok

07-10-2009, 21:45

i had one before i went omex, could do fault code checks and test most of the things in the car, good bit of kit

James5

12-11-2009, 14:44

Come on Andy think it's about time you gave us an update:D.

Let me see f4r was in and running you got bored and took the f4r out and squeezed a 3.0 v6 in the back.:coffee:

Rob@Backyardracing

18-02-2010, 21:14

Whats happening Andy... must be an update soon...:confused:

Andrew Cooke

18-02-2010, 21:27

Whats happening Andy... must be an update soon...:confused:

you'd have hoped so wouldn't you :laugh:

I've got my RS Tuner and and emulator, just trying to get the bits and bobs to convert it to cable throttle, it's only money :cry:

now the days are getting longer and warmer:scratch: I'm going to try and get some more done, but my old bones aren't keen on working in the snow:sad2:

f0xy

19-02-2010, 21:29

If youve got the engine mounted in place, itl only take a short while to bolt the stuff on, connect loom and plug emulaed ECU in...it should run nice then!

Andrew Cooke

05-04-2010, 20:06

I ran out of excuses today, so finally did a bit more to the car.

Not much has happened with the engine, I've removed all the PH2 stuff, got a PH1 ECU and engine loom, just waiting for a PH1 plenum, throttle body and idle speed control valve to turn up.

I've removed the N/S driveshaft to shorten it and modified the Twingo suspension to fit the modified 172 hubs. The OS corner is now bolted on for hopefully the final time, the new 172 disks are on, and the new pads are in the 172 calipers.

I've set it up with a bit of negative camber, not sure how much, but it looks about right.

The pictures show the suspension compressed, so it's pretty much at the correct rideheight. It should look almost standard...

Andrew Cooke

09-04-2010, 21:06

a little bit of a poke around today, I had to make an extension for the handbrake linkage, no idea how I need an extension when using clio cables, but there you go. I made a threaded spacer, and welded it to the cut down clio part and threaded onto the cut down twingo part, maybe the pic explains better.

I made up new brake hoses for the rear, then decided that the only space for the rear brake compensator was under the servo, so I guess I'm going to just make all new lines. The rubber hoses felt a bit stiff, so I decided to go for braided ones, a quick look on ebay Germany found a twingo set, and ordered them. I'd already confirmed that the Twingo fronts worked fine with the 172 calipers.

So, not much achieved, but it's another 'system' on the way to working. I'm hoping to get another day working on it over the weekend.

Rob@Backyardracing

09-04-2010, 21:10

Good to see your cracking back on Andy... :agree:

rs250nut

09-04-2010, 21:13

Like this project a lot, proper wheel in each corner job, www.looneytunecarbuilds.com (http://www.looneytunecarbuilds.com):wasntme:

Andrew Cooke

09-04-2010, 21:21

Good to see your cracking back on Andy... :agree:

I was thinking the same, shocking that I've dragged it out so long... I've set my heart on taking it to La Vie en Bleu at the end of May. That crazy plan came out of persuading a guy at work to get his Delage ready for the same event, the difference is that he only needs to put his gearbox back together, and he's on a 6 month sabbatical :crap:

Oh, and I lose 2 weekends in May going on holiday...

Rob@Backyardracing

09-04-2010, 21:35

Cant beat a good target... even better get it to rtoc pod day...:coffee:

Andrew Cooke

09-04-2010, 21:44

Cant beat a good target... even better get it to rtoc pod day...:coffee:
love to, unfortunately that's when I'm away :cry:

Rob@Backyardracing

09-04-2010, 21:48

Arrrrrrrrrr you going to miss me take all Scoffs pinks home... :p

Andrew Cooke

11-04-2010, 20:17

another couple of small steps.

I've got the gear linkage working, what an epic, it's based on a 172 one, but cut into 5 bits and tacked back together. I began to think that I'd never get it working :(. I also fitted my short throw gearbox linkage thing, I'd previously had it on the GTT, so I'll need to do something for that when I get it back together. I've also fitted the Twingo knob and gaiter onto the 172 gear lever, so that all looks OE now.

I lashed up an exhaust the the twingo system is now fitted onto the back of the 172 CAT, it's a bit of a bodge, but it should get it an MOT. I'll get something nice made up once it's up and running. By nice I mean stainless, quiet, and hopefully with a hidden tailpipe - I can't go giving the game away by having a big lairy pipe hanging out the back.

I think the next job is to get the PH1 172 engine loom fitted in preparation for the plenum etc turning up. That said, it might be easier to do the brake lines without the loom in the way. Something to ponder on...

Andrew Cooke

12-04-2010, 20:38

Somehow along the way I've been suckered into buying an RS lower inlet manifold, the ports are bigger than the standard inlet and supposedly worth a hp or so. It came in a natty yellow colour, so out came the nitromors and I gave it a bit of a clean, it's not done yet, but getting there.

TNT Tricky Nicky

12-04-2010, 21:25

Andrew Cooke

12-04-2010, 22:11

are you gonna run the original lower inlet then change it over or just swap it over without seeing if you notice the difference of a hand picked, best of the best, inlet selected only for the cup model fitted in dieppe? :laugh:

was looking into matched inlets but not sure if the cost will out weigh the gains but seeing you've invested means there must be something in it but on the other hand you seem a little sceptical?

I'm certainly not doing any back-to-back testing.

I've just taken a few rough measurements, my engine is a PH2 172, I've got a PH1 plenum coming so it'll be interesting to compare.

The RS lower is a different casting to the std one, neither manifold has as big a cross section as the head, the RS is about 1/2 way between the standard manifold and the head. Both lower manifolds keep the same section along their length - this is important as the matched stuff I've seen is only ported at the ends...

The upper manifold has tapered ports, in my case it's final size is much as the standard bottom. However, the taper means that it matches the RS lower about 30mm in, so easily matched.

From what I've seen I'll probably use a std RS lower, and match the top to it.

TNT Tricky Nicky

12-04-2010, 23:34

Andrew Cooke

12-04-2010, 23:55

Sounds like a plan, I've not compaired any of the difference of the different phases but from the research I've done it seems as though the cable throttle is the better of the two and as you say the rs lower is the better option.

Have you given much thought to the induction set up? The v6 airbox with itg filter directly fitted to the throttlebody without the 90* bend seems to be a popular choice as is fitting a ph1 airbox instead of the ph2?

I'm resisting the urge to play with my Clio, keep telling myself I've got to finish my 5 gtt first so looks like it will be staying near enough standard for awhile! :laugh:

it's more a case of what will fit in the space available, certainly the PH2 won't go, I don't know how I'm going to fit the throttle cable as that'll go straight through the wiper motor :sad2:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=3299&d=1249830845

see the attached image for a more complete fitment

James5

13-04-2010, 00:17

it's more a case of what will fit in the space available, certainly the PH2 won't go, I don't know how I'm going to fit the throttle cable as that'll go straight through the wiper motor :sad2:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=3299&d=1249830845

see the attached image for a more complete fitment

Looking good Andrew, maybe you could mount the phase 1 throttle body upside down to give you clearance for the cable:)

Ashy

13-04-2010, 12:51

Looking good Andrew, maybe you could mount the phase 1 throttle body upside down to give you clearance for the cable:)

Just what I was thinking :agree:

Have your bits arrived from Andyrg yet?

Andrew Cooke

13-04-2010, 13:16

Just what I was thinking :agree:

Have your bits arrived from Andyrg yet?

that was something I was going to try, assuming that it's possible to do.

Nope, no bits, I've re-bought them off someone else, so should have the missing bits before the weekend.... don't hold your breath...

James5

13-04-2010, 14:10

that was something I was going to try, assuming that it's possible to do.

Nope, no bits, I've re-bought them off someone else, so should have the missing bits before the weekend.... don't hold your breath...

Yeah it is possible I remember seeing a picture of Andrew Warren's rear wheel drive 172 5 and he mounted the TB upside.

James5

13-04-2010, 15:17

Found one of Andrew's pic's you can see Ph1 TB upside down
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/th_whatarethesepipesfor.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/?action=view&current=whatarethesepipesfor.jpg)

c7borg

13-04-2010, 15:39

yep and here's a couple of other pics.. I lobbed the circled thing off to give better clearance.. I don't seem to have any problems. Although I do have an airleak somewhere which I need to investigate.. anyone know the stuff you spray on to find airleaks..

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/S6EDAHrSn_I/AAAAAAAAAg0/lYxhgmES7cs/172%20throttle%20body.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/S8SBG0osexI/AAAAAAAAAj8/0zCX-hLAnMs/s576/Image0058.jpg

allanr5gtt

13-04-2010, 19:58

what's the difference between the ph1 and ph2 manifold?

Andrew Cooke

13-04-2010, 20:42

what's the difference between the ph1 and ph2 manifold?

PH1 is cable throttle with an idle speed control valve, no idea whether there are any porting differences.

andyrg

13-04-2010, 22:52

:agree:

Have your bits arrived from Andyrg yet?
I am refunding Andrew with the full money, As per phone call last week. Im not using DHL P2G again, there a total piss take.

On That note andrew the money will be refunded via PayPal before friday, i get paid thursday.

Much appoligies for the hasstle and grief caused, Some thing thats made me look like a right ****!and it was not my fault !

Andrew Cooke

13-04-2010, 23:02

I am refunding Andrew with the full money, As per phone call last week. Im not using DHL P2G again, there a total piss take.

On That note andrew the money will be refunded via PayPal before friday, i get paid thursday.

Much appoligies for the hasstle and grief caused, Some thing thats made me look like a right ****!and it was not my fault !

don't talk to me about DHL Parcel to go.... they aren't the same as DHL, DHL collect and drop off at work daily, same chap, knows the score. Parcel to go just don't pick up, promise to collect "tomorrow" for about a week of daily nagging.

andyrg

14-04-2010, 00:00

don't talk to me about DHL Parcel to go.... they aren't the same as DHL, DHL collect and drop off at work daily, same chap, knows the score. Parcel to go just don't pick up, promise to collect "tomorrow" for about a week of daily nagging.

Is this the case?? Do you think there is any point in making a compaint???

Ive only used them a few times, never had issues till now

Andrew Cooke

15-04-2010, 13:30

Is this the case?? Do you think there is any point in making a compaint???

Ive only used them a few times, never had issues till now

They certainly need a rocket up them, your stuff has been with them for ages.

Good news is that my second source plenum has arrived, so I can carry on putting the engine together. I still want your parcel to turn up though as it's got Steve's head in it.

Andrew Cooke

15-04-2010, 13:32

yep and here's a couple of other pics.. I lobbed the circled thing off to give better clearance.. I don't seem to have any problems. Although I do have an airleak somewhere which I need to investigate.. anyone know the stuff you spray on to find airleaks..

presumably you blocked the hole off afterwards? Where does that pipe normally go? The engine breather pipe of the top of the head?

Now I have my plenum I can see how the linkage will fit, I'm sure there'll be a way to make it work.

c7borg

15-04-2010, 16:24

yes, I used a bit of silicon.. I must check if that's still in place

Andrew Cooke

16-04-2010, 13:13

The braided brake hoses just arrived from Germany, all being well I'll make the brake pipes and have working brakes by the end of Saturday.

Andrew Cooke

17-04-2010, 18:24

well, that all went to plan.

Stripped off the original brake pipes first thing, then managed to mount the clio cup brake pressure regulator under the servo, it actually looks quite at home there. Made up the new brake pipes, fitted with the new braided hoses, bled the brakes, adjusted the handbrake. Job done.

The Twingo now has a fully working 172 Cup braking system :cool:

I spent a few hours tidying up the PH1 engine loom last night, it's almost done, and I can fit it now that the brake pipes are fitted. If all goes well I'll start the engine next weekend :laugh:

Unfortunately I'm off out now for the rest of the weekend, it's a pity, I'd like to crack on and get the wiring finished.

Chris Hebden

18-04-2010, 11:11

Andrew Cooke

18-04-2010, 19:44

the regulator is just that, it limits the pressure to the rear brakes, the cup one doesn't have a load arm.

Spooky has lent me his ECU, so I can fire up the engine in advance of sorting mine out :)

James5

18-04-2010, 19:52

the regulator is just that, it limits the pressure to the rear brakes, the cup one doesn't have a load arm.

Spooky has lent me his ECU, so I can fire up the engine in advance of sorting mine out :)

Feck me that ecu gets around :laugh: guarented working though :D

Chris Hebden

18-04-2010, 19:54

the regulator is just that, it limits the pressure to the rear brakes, the cup one doesn't have a load arm.

So how does it regulate mate? Is it a screwin jobbie? Like a incar boost controller?

Spooky

18-04-2010, 19:59

Most of my car parts get used and abused even though my car is off the road :laugh:

Anytime Andy & fingers crossed she fires up soon :D :agree:

Andrew Cooke

20-04-2010, 20:34

So how does it regulate mate? Is it a screwin jobbie? Like a incar boost controller?

there is a screw, but it's factory set. It works just like the GTT one.

Andrew Cooke

20-04-2010, 20:38

Some pictures that look much like some previous ones, but this time it's with a PH1 plenum, loom etc. Tonight's little task was to fit the loom, non-yellow RS lower inlet, PH1 upper, and generally stand around feeling cold. It all looks reasonable, the throttle linkage is currently off, I think I'll trim the wiper motor bracket so that I can use the standard clio bits.

Chris Hebden

20-04-2010, 21:10

there is a screw, but it's factory set. It works just like the GTT one.

:agree: thanks! I know you said above that there are no gains over the GTT one but dont you have less of a problem with it siezing up?

Car looks like its coming together nicely :)

Andrew Cooke

22-04-2010, 08:07

:agree: thanks! I know you said above that there are no gains over the GTT one but dont you have less of a problem with it siezing up?

Car looks like its coming together nicely :)

it won't seize as it doesn't move, just like the GTT one won't move if you lock it in position.

Andrew Cooke

22-04-2010, 08:09

Engine fired up last night, on the button, no drama :)

just ignore that I first tried starting it in August... :sad2:

r5gt1986

22-04-2010, 08:42

Good to hear progress. Well done.;)

Andrew Cooke

24-04-2010, 14:34

it does run, honest. Hunts a bit, don't know why, maybe it'll sort itself out once it's done a bit more running?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnO2HP5kAs

A couple of general pictures, I think I just need to hot glue the rad to the front panel, I'm bored of making brackets now. I wish I'd kept whatever held the rad to the front panel in the 172.

General shots showing all the free space available.:(

Some good news though, I'd been concerned that the speedo was showing speed when I started it before, no problem, it's on stands and the driveshafts were spinning in neutral :)

Spooky

24-04-2010, 16:08

The temp sensor on the front of the block maybe fubarred, just pull the coupler off and see it improves it :)

Rob@Backyardracing

24-04-2010, 17:38

Progress i like to see... :D

Spooky

24-04-2010, 18:45

Andy, nice overalls :D

Andrew Cooke

24-04-2010, 18:50

Andy, nice overalls :D

you should see my quilted winter overalls :laugh:

oh, and my one piece waterproof jobs:sad2:

Adey aka Ewok

25-04-2010, 09:45

good show bud, what happened to the clio shell?

Andrew Cooke

25-04-2010, 14:53

good show bud, what happened to the clio shell?

crushed it in November :D

Adey aka Ewok

25-04-2010, 16:01

Pants, how hard was the wiring side of things? Very tempted to drop the 172 lump in the 11

Andrew Cooke

25-04-2010, 16:33

Pants, how hard was the wiring side of things? Very tempted to drop the 172 lump in the 11

With the PH1 and cable throttle pretty straight forward, you want the ECU unlocking and fitting with an emulator to get around the security issues, then it's maybe 11 wires?

Adey aka Ewok

25-04-2010, 19:05

excelent, not too complicated then

Spooky

25-04-2010, 19:47

Ade, have a butchers at my harness if you're unsure mate, not many wires needed to fire it up :agree:

Andrew Cooke

25-04-2010, 21:27

I'm running out of space :sad:

I knocked up a bracket to hold the 172 rad onto the Twingo front panel from a bit of my old trailer tyre rack, fear not, it was pretty thin, and thus light;)

With the rad bolted on I tried to fit the front panel onto the car, first of all the water pipes were in the way, so I removed them and tried again. Then the clutch arm was hitting a fan support, snapped the support off and tried again. Then the fan was hitting the wiring support bracket on the gearbox, so I cut that off and tried again. Then the fan was hitting the gearbox - forkit, I removed the fan and tried again. It now pretty much fitted, although the rad hits the engine mount I made :sad2:. I'll need to cut the bracket down when I get 5 minutes, but for now the rad just about fits, albeit without pipes or fan.

It looks like I'll be able to use the Twingo fan with a custom bracket, and maybe the pipes will fit with a cut and shut.

I've sorted out the throttle cable by rotating the throttle body 90deg and using the standard Twingo cable. Unfortunately the bracket does go right where I expected to put the intake pipe and filter...

The good news is that I can still close the bonnet:D

Andrew Cooke

25-04-2010, 21:31

whilst I remember I also took a couple of shots showing where the brake pressure regulator fits under the servo.

Spooky

25-04-2010, 21:56

Nearly there now :)

James5

25-04-2010, 22:16

Nearly there now :)

:agree:Looking good Andrew good to see the project is almost there :D

Andrew Cooke

25-04-2010, 22:27

it doesn't feel like it's nearly there, there are so many small and not so small jobs left to do, and I have almost no free time before La Vie en Bleu. That said, all the driver controls work, and it's finished from the bulkhead back.

The main things left are:

cooling
LH driveshaft needs to be shortened
air filter
tidy up the wiring and pipework
MOT

Andrew Cooke

27-04-2010, 00:15

Gaz2405

27-04-2010, 07:38

ISCV should go into pipe one as shown here

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/Gaz2405/icvview.jpg

I take it your inlet has the blank drilled out for the iscv.

Andrew Cooke

27-04-2010, 12:58

ISCV should go into pipe one as shown here

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/Gaz2405/icvview.jpg

I take it your inlet has the blank drilled out for the iscv.

yep, I've got the valve, it's just a question of whether that pipe goes to the bottom of the throttle body, or to the inlet pipe itself.

Spooky

27-04-2010, 14:43

I'll have a look at my Clio but I'm sure it's the inlet.

Andrew Cooke

04-05-2010, 13:29

some good news, some bad. Starting with the bad.

I tried to shorten the driveshaft to suit, it's made of tough stuff, my hacksaw wouldn't touch it, and my mill make lots of sparks and smoke as I cracked through the outer shell. It turns out that it's solid, so there's no way I can weld it. It looks like I'll have to get one made :sad:

On the plus side I got real lucky with the fan, having worked out how to adapt the Twingo fan to fit the 172 rad and miss the engine I had a search around the shed for suitable materials. I came across my old GTT fan, thinking it might be easier to fit than the Twingo one I tried it against the 172 rad. Rotated 90deg is bolted straight on. Dropped the front panel back onto the car and the fan missed the engine and all the important bits.

So, I've now fitted the front panel, radiator, and fan for hopefully the last time. I've fitted the OS headlamp, and it misses the alternator pulley by about 3mm, so that'll be one to keep an eye on. I trimmed the engine mount back to miss the radiator, so that's done. I tried the bumper on, and it needed a bit of trimming to miss the larger radiator and bracket, nothing too taxing, and that too is now fitted. Finally I refitted the bonnet lock, and that's working fine too.

Major outstanding jobs are:

tyrap and tape wiring loom
make water pipes
wire up fan
get a driveshaft
sort out my ECU so I can use it and give Spooky his back
air filter - being sorted, no huge problem
I bought a new lambda sensor, so I'll need to fit that
tracking
spanner check
errm, MOT...

I think that's it :laugh:

Gaz2405

04-05-2010, 13:34

Give it a couple of days and the list will get longer, it always does!

Its always the little niggle jobs that take forever aswell!

Nice work

Andrew Cooke

04-05-2010, 13:39

Give it a couple of days and the list will get longer, it always does!

Its always the little niggle jobs that take forever aswell!

Nice work

tell me about it, every job I complete seems to add 2 more to the list :) I just take comfort when I think of the systems that work.

Spooky

04-05-2010, 13:51

Andy, keep the ECU for as long as you need it, no rush :)

f0xy

04-05-2010, 17:36

yep, I've got the valve, it's just a question of whether that pipe goes to the bottom of the throttle body, or to the inlet pipe itself.

Pipe from the Idle control valve goes to the inlet elbow, I run mine without a hose to atmosphere as I dont have an elbow and its fine too...

The pipe under the throttle body is for the crankcase breather on the back of the cylinder head

Andrew Cooke

04-05-2010, 23:01

In a moment of pure optimism today I thought that I might be able to fit the outer 172 CV onto the Twingo driveshaft to make what I needed. I got the CV off the 172 shaft OK, but when it came to removing the one off the twingo shaft I found it was a cheapo one piece affair, so no chance of swapping anything.

Flushed with failure I've been trawling the web for a catalogue listing driveshaft dimensions. This is what I found:

lengths are Left - right, in mm

R5 GTT 595 - 690
Clio 16V 605 - 705
Clio Williams 620 - 720
Clio Sport 639 - 734
R19 16V 640 - 740
Twingo I 625 - 750

Anyone got a Williams shaft lying around, or know where to find one? Hopefully I'll be able to swap a 172 CV onto that...

Scoff

04-05-2010, 23:16

Andy, if you get really stuck you can send me up a shaft with details of how much to remove and I'll shorten it for you.

Andrew Cooke

04-05-2010, 23:28

Andy, if you get really stuck you can send me up a shaft with details of how much to remove and I'll shorten it for you.

Cheers Chris, can you do it without increasing the OD?

Scoff

04-05-2010, 23:35

Cheers Chris, can you do it without increasing the OD?

I could although the result may not be as tough. Normally I cut a castle top shape into each half of the shaft, inter lock them, weld and then slip a tube over the lot and weld that in to. I could do it without the tube. Would it matter if it was 6/7mm bigger OD in one area ?

Andrew Cooke

04-05-2010, 23:46

I could although the result may not be as tough. Normally I cut a castle top shape into each half of the shaft, inter lock them, weld and then slip a tube over the lot and weld that in to. I could do it without the tube. Would it matter if it was 6/7mm bigger OD in one area ?

I'd hate to try and cut anything fancy on these shafts, they're seriously hard, plus being solid it'd be tricky to make any kind of shape. It was at that point that I lost interest :laugh:

I'd be concerned going bigger on the OD, the 172 shaft is already quite a bit bigger than the twingo one, and there is very little clearance to the subframe.

I've sent out an SOS to Dieppe on the off chance that there is an off the shelf shaft of the right length, seems a bit unlikely though.

Scoff

04-05-2010, 23:51

Oh, I assumed the 172 shaft would be hollow like a GT. Could we not shorten a GT shaft instead ? The join can be inward of the chassis leg, I have the same problem with clearence.

Andrew Cooke

05-05-2010, 00:09

Oh, I assumed the 172 shaft would be hollow like a GT. Could we not shorten a GT shaft instead ? The join can be inward of the chassis leg, I have the same problem with clearence.

we'd need to lengthen a GTT shaft. I have an R19 shaft here that we could shorten, although I'm still not 100% that a 172 CV will fit onto a GTT/R19 shaft. I guess I need to sort that out first.

Andrew Cooke

05-05-2010, 00:12

found someone selling Williams shafts

http://www.bacciromano.com/index.php?p=prodotti&l=eng&cat1=24&cat2=51&mar=8

Andrew Cooke

05-05-2010, 23:09

we'd need to lengthen a GTT shaft. I have an R19 shaft here that we could shorten, although I'm still not 100% that a 172 CV will fit onto a GTT/R19 shaft. I guess I need to sort that out first.

soddit, the R19 shaft I have uses the same crappy cast on joint as the Twingo, so no chance of using that.

Andrew Cooke

10-05-2010, 22:50

I am refunding Andrew with the full money, As per phone call last week. Im not using DHL P2G again, there a total piss take.

On That note andrew the money will be refunded via PayPal before friday, i get paid thursday.

Much appoligies for the hasstle and grief caused, Some thing thats made me look like a right ****!and it was not my fault !

for those that have asked, no Andy hasn't refunded my money yet.

Lewis

11-05-2010, 09:57

Andrew Cooke

11-05-2010, 13:14

I might have a shaft, although it might be an r19 one... Will get tape measure out tonight and let you know.

Hope you get your money back as well, I know what it's like when people promise to send or refund things and never do.

I think I'm sorted, I'm expecting a williams shaft to turn up, although things have gone quiet on that front, oh, and the 172 CV I ordered turned out to be off something else :cry:

errm, you mean like Gordini cam followers :ashamed:

Andrew Cooke

12-05-2010, 20:57

it finally looks like the driveshaft saga is coming to an end....
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/shafted.jpg?t=1273693597

is it just me that had never come across a 'peek aboo party pole'?

Anyway, that's the packaging that the Williams driveshaft came in :cool:

I thought I was looking sweet when my new 172 CV arrived on Monday, and the Williams shaft was in the post. Unfortunately I found on Monday evening that the CV was wrong, I'm glad I checked straight away. I should receive the correct one tomorrow.

The Williams shaft arrive today, and this evening I popped the CV off (I'm getting good at them now :) ) I now know 100% that the 23 spline 172CV will fit the Williams shaft (these have a 21 spline CV) The length looks OK too.

All this means I can go on holiday happy that the driveshaft should fit, and the last piece of the Twingo 172 puzzle has dropped into place :cool2:

clee

12-05-2010, 21:08

I've come across one many a time

Andrew Cooke

12-05-2010, 21:09

I've come across one many a time

next...

:laugh:

Andrew Cooke

12-05-2010, 21:11

anyone know if I need to index the joint, or even how to? In my excitement to take everything apart I forgot to mark things up :ashamed:

Lewis

13-05-2010, 01:23

I think I'm sorted, I'm expecting a williams shaft to turn up, although things have gone quiet on that front, oh, and the 172 CV I ordered turned out to be off something else :cry:

errm, you mean like Gordini cam followers :ashamed:

No problems with the Gordini followers, I've got a terrible memory though...

It was the saga with a different member and the williams subframe, sorted out in the end but took months of annoyance.

Trevhib

13-05-2010, 09:32

Anyway, that's the packaging that the Williams driveshaft came in
-----------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, righto.

:laugh:

andyrg

13-05-2010, 19:18

for those that have asked, no Andy hasn't refunded my money yet.

I just saw this andrew, You received my PM i sent yesterday and replyed/.

It will be sorted by the weekend once im up and running again.

Please feel free to put a paypal dispute in if it makes you feel more secured, but i am certianly not going to run away/rip you off and make me look like a dodge ******* for £75 its just the paypal not being authorized thats caused the delay. If sending you £75 in the post via sign for will be quicker i also will be happy to do that too

Kind Regards

Andy

Andrew Cooke

23-05-2010, 21:37

I got back from Italy at 3:30 this morning, since I have an MOT booked in for 9am tomorrow I've needed to finish off a few jobs. No pictures unfortunately as my camera is still on holiday.

First job was to assemble the 172 CV onto the williams shaft. That all went ok, and fitted onto the car without drama. With the hub nut loose I pushed and pulled the CV to check the plunge, it felt OK, so I bolted everything up and topped up the gearbox oil.

With the car on stands I started the engine and dropped it into gear, this produced a horrible cyclic rubbing noise. My first though was that I'd dropped a clanger and that the driveshafts were rubbing on something. A quick check showed nothing obvious, so I turned the wheel by hand, listening and looking for anything odd. The inner end of the Williams driveshaft is moving eccentrically, the joint feels OK, so I think there's a reasonable possibility that the shaft is bent :bored:. I didn't have time to strip everything down to be certain, and it'll be OK for getting an MOT.

I continued bolting the suspension together, and dropped it onto the floor. Moment of truth, I started it up and drove backwards and forwards on the drive. Tyrapped a few wires etc out of the way, fitted the missing headlight, checked it, wired the fan, and ran the engine to get it fully hot with the fan switching in and out.

I think the rideheight might need a tweek, the front looks too low to me (the suspension kit is for the 1.2L engine, so it's probably just the extra engine weight pulling it down) The rear looks a bit high, but I'm going to drive it to see how twitchy it feels, due to the lack of droop at the rear lowering will make it more stable.

I considered it washing it, but my one bucket technique requires me to have a bucket and sponge. It's so long since I've used either that I can't find them and have probably used the bucket for storing parts or draining oil...

Spooky

23-05-2010, 21:56

Awesome :agree:

Andrew Cooke

24-05-2010, 10:28

well, good news and bad.

It all works. It's been a while since I've driven a quick road car, at first it felt a bit slow, but once warm and using the revs it certainly picks up it's skirts and flies. More than fast enough for the lanes around here. With no air filter it makes a noise that says 'look at me', and that won't really change as I'm going to be using an open pipercross filter (it should be waiting for me at work).

The brakes need a bit of a bleed, but they work well enough.

Suspension feels OK, not too stiff. I still need to do the tracking so no heroics on that front.

Unfortunately it failed the MOT on some rust, I'm getting it patched up to get through the MOT, but really need to do a proper underfloor restoration and anti corrosion job during the winter. It's just on the turn now, so shouldn't be too bad, but needs doing right.

Overall the MOT guy was impressed, I've known him years, so spent the time to talk through what I'd done, and what I'd swapped so that he could have a good look at those areas.

Roll on Prescott this coming weekend :)

James5

24-05-2010, 14:05

Andrew Cooke

24-05-2010, 17:44

:agree: Andrew Fantastic news that she is all up and running with a few minor issues for the MOT. You'll have to get some pics up so we can all see how she now looks sitting down on all wheels and any vids you have of driving.

Think you haven't yourself a nice cuppa:coffee:

Thanks James :)

Do you know what map is in the ECU? it doesn't feel that great, although the Twingo peashooter might be bunging it up :D

I'm going to have to be careful in it as it's such fun giving it a big squirt, I gave it full beans on entering a 60 limit earlier, and came upon a photographer hiding in a corner trying to take a magazine type photo of a beemer coming the other way. I could see him trying to peer around me to see what was making the noise :sad2:

Andrew Cooke

24-05-2010, 17:51

James5

24-05-2010, 18:40

Thanks James :)

Do you know what map is in the ECU? it doesn't feel that great, although the Twingo peashooter might be bunging it up :D

I'm going to have to be careful in it as it's such fun giving it a big squirt, I gave it full beans on entering a 60 limit earlier, and came upon a photographer hiding in a corner trying to take a magazine type photo of a beemer coming the other way. I could see him trying to peer around me to see what was making the noise :sad2:

That ecu is standard phase 1 map, it has been virginlised and also had the emulator in place aswell all works done by rstuning the blokes a member on the cliosport site aswell

TNT Tricky Nicky

24-05-2010, 18:43

i find the f4r sluggish at lower revs, once you pass about 3.5krpm it starts getting lively and after 5 it wants to go even harder. that's on a standard map not sure what gains are to be had from a remap but it's something i may look into.

if it's been reflashed by the rstuner from what i kno the preset group n remap removes the cold limiter and raises the limiter to 7.5

the 182 manifold changes the torque curve so you get a better lower range but not so great at the top so your exhaust could be having an affect on that front

Andrew Cooke

24-05-2010, 19:08

That ecu is standard phase 1 map, it has been virginlised and also had the emulator in place aswell all works done by rstuning the blokes a member on the cliosport site aswell

Ahh, that sounds right, I did interrogate the reprogramming history and do recall seeing grpN in there, but didn't think it was still in. It certainly has a very odd torque curve, it just seems to climb in steps. Still, I'm very happy with it so far :)

I was showing it off at work, it went down very well, my favourite comment was 'this is the Twingo Renault should have made'

Mart

24-05-2010, 19:18

Haha, great stuff mate! Definitely get some vid's uploaded of it out on the road :agree:

So, turbo conversion? ;)

Andrew Cooke

24-05-2010, 19:30

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/finished.jpg?t=1274725680
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/finished2.jpg?t=1274725716

needs a bit of a clean, anyone with OCD want to pop around with your wet and dry, or what ever ones uses to clean stuff these days?

TrixNFlix

24-05-2010, 19:35

Love it. :agree: Top work at keeping it almost 100% standard looking. :cool::)

Andrew Cooke

24-05-2010, 19:36

Haha, great stuff mate! Definitely get some vid's uploaded of it out on the road :agree:

So, turbo conversion? ;)

I'll get my photographer queued up on that one...

errm, nope, 'it's got enough power' :laugh:

old skool turbo power

24-05-2010, 20:48

good job on the car mate :)haha you could just imagine being at the lights lookin at it and having a laugh at it then before you know it the little twingo.........:burnrubber:.....a right sleeper :laugh::cool:

BriC

24-05-2010, 21:37

needs a bit of a clean, anyone with OCD want to pop around with your wet and dry, or what ever ones uses to clean stuff these days?

:laugh:

Fantastic stuff - looks really good!

Good to hear it didn't fail on any of the complicated / expensive stuff - just a bit of welding :)

Andrew Cooke

24-05-2010, 23:02

Hot news, it's now running on my ECU rather than Spooky's (James' old one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgkOCJ9PGkk

Spooky

24-05-2010, 23:09

:laugh: :agree:

T.K

27-05-2010, 12:06

Haha! Awesome. Needs the optional standard fit Ronal Teddies..

I have some!

Amazing conversion Andrew :agree:

Andrew Cooke

27-05-2010, 19:16

Haha! Awesome. Needs the optional standard fit Ronal Teddies..

I have some!

Amazing conversion Andrew :agree:

If they're 15s I'll give 'em a go :D

Andrew Cooke

27-05-2010, 21:09

it's got an MOT :D

and an ugly looking patch on it's sill :cry: it'll get fixed properly some time.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/uglypatch.jpg?t=1274991941

It all went a bit depressing when I dropped it off for welding yesterday, as I slowed down the revs stayed very high, and as I tried to find reverse all it would do was grind the gears :( I popped out and stuck my thumb over the ISCV pipe which dropped the revs right down, so it was either a stuck valve, or the ECU was holding it open. Got back in and decided to switch off, select reverse, then restart to allow it to reverse. Went to start, and nothing :(, I pushed it back, dropped the keys off with the garage, and went to work.

I had a call later to say that the battery was completely flat, and it started OK after a boost. This got me thinking. If the battery voltage was low the ECU may well try to open the ISCV to give it some charge, obviously the high revs would make reverse difficult, so the only problem I had was why wasn't it charging, and was something flattening the battery?

I popped up to the garage at lunch time to have a look around, and immediately spotted that the battery cable to the alternator was very loose and about to fall off. Tightened the nut and everything was fixed :ashamed:

andyrg

27-05-2010, 21:52

This is such a great project, proper pocket rocket :) Nice sill repair :) Just needs a little paint work now :) Im sure you can sort that.

I did that with the earth from my Altinator and melted a battery

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 11:11

I've been a bit slack with updates, the filter was fitted a couple of weeks back, but here it is: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley4.gif

The first thing I got sorted was the air filter:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/filter2.jpg?t=1275516692

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/filter1.jpg?t=1275516736

I used:
pipercross filter 100mm dia 200mm long 70mm inlet
samco 90deg 70mm
70mm aluminium tube
16mm revotec barb
16mm samco flex hose

A little bit of trim got the filter sat where I wanted it, I then fitted the 16mm barb into the elbow and ran the hose to the ISCV. Job done.

I'm thinking of bonding the filter to the aluminium pipe to the 90 with tigerseal to get rid of 2 of the jubilee clips as they look a bit messy.

I'd also like to swap the blue hose from the FPR to the plenum with either an original part, or some black silicon. Drop my a line if you have anything lying around http://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley1.gif

On Friday I decided to fill up with fuel to get an idea on fuel consumption. unfortunately during this fuel started pouring out of the top of the tank, so I popped home to investigate. It was easily found, some fool (that'll be me) hadn't seated the seal in the fuel collector correctly before screwing it down (whilst fitting the 172 fuel pump early in the project). Easy fix.

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 11:13

My completion target was La Vie en Bleu at Prescott at the end of May. I'd hoped to complete a few jobs and checks on the Saturday before, as it turned out it was a bit wet, so I just did the minimum of sorting out the fuel tank seal and running a damp sponge over the outside.

I'd arranged a spot on the Renault Alpine Owner's Club stand, and dumped it there on the Sunday morning. It languished there for a couple of hours largely unnoticed amongst it's sporty brethren. A friend of mine came along at around midday, and I popped the bonnet to let him have a look:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/Courseyoucantouchher.jpg

The game was up, and I soon had a few heads peering in...

Anyway, I dropped the bonnet, and left it once again in anonymity.

We got to do a convoy run, and I hoped my G/F might make a video of it, unfortunately she lost concentration once I hit the throttle, so that was that. If you have a search on youtube for 'Patrese Wife' you'll get the idea, although she had time to relax as there was a lot of traffic. She's going to love Mallory http://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley4.gif

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 11:16

I've not done a lot since Prescott.

Swapped the bent Williams driveshaft for a straight one.

Used my first full tank of fuel, averaged ~38mpg, which was nice http://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley1.gif

I've got an annoying screeching noise on the passenger side over 5Krpm, only does it when the GF is in the car, no idea what it is http://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/x_ignoreme.gif

Other than that I have a little bit of touching at the rear on big bumps, so I'll need to investigate that.

I've booked in at pro-speed at the end of the month for an exhaust.

Scoff

20-06-2010, 11:22

awesome, I got worried about half way through that you'd never finish it :D

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 11:35

I bought an RSTuner remap gizmo a while ago, it's been handy for checking sensors etc, and once I've fitted an OBD sensor inside the car I can use it for logging, making 'power curves' etc. It's been a bit of an epic making it talk to my ECU, and somewhere along the way it decided to latch itself onto Spooky's ECU rather than mine. He doesn't know yet, but we're going to be swapping ECUs :innocent: This is a bit of a downer for me as I think I have the better emulator, and I fitted it, so I know it's done right... I suppose we might be able to swap emulators depending upon what the RSTuner has latched itself on to.

I'm now almost at the bottom of my second tank of fuel, with no more problems, so I've started tidying up a few loose ends.

I bought some new number plates, GB, euro plates, the ones with the blue rectangle on the left, it's a bit poncy, but only £7.75 a pair off ebay. I wanted to pull the old plates off to clean behind them as they had filled up with crud after being stood for so long. I've stuck them on with mirror tape, not sure whether I like them or not, but for now they're fitted.

I pulled the roof trims off for the same reason, they were packed with mud and stuff, so I've saved a few grammes there. I broke a couple of the retaining clips, so they're on order with Renault, not bad at £2.25 for 12.

Whilst in the dealers I ordered a pair of new front indicator lenses as one was snapped in half, and both were faded, a bit of an extravagance, and much more than buying white, blue, or black ones of Ebay, but I'm trying to make it look tidy and original. BTW, the sales men in the dealers had a good look when I arrived, and had a 'does not compute' look when I squirted it off their forecourt.

Again, whilst buying I ordered a pair of new front window seals as mine are falling apart.

When it comes to real work, I'm just doing an oil change, 5L of halfords finest to replace the oil that was in the engine when I bought the clio :D

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 11:46

awesome, I got worried about half way through that you'd never finish it :D

You were worried? you didn't have it sat on bricks blocking your drive :laugh:

I think it might need a turbo though, the torque curve is a bit dreadful, maybe once it has a decent exhaust rather than the standard Twingo one it'll wake up a bit.

Scoff

20-06-2010, 11:55

You were worried? you didn't have it sat on bricks blocking your drive :laugh:

I think it might need a turbo though, the torque curve is a bit dreadful, maybe once it has a decent exhaust rather than the standard Twingo one it'll wake up a bit.

There's space for a turbo ? :confused: :D

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 12:02

There's space for a turbo ? :confused: :D

sure, there's loads down the back.... OK, maybe not loads.

I think if I did that it'd be best to sell this one and fit a 225 engine and box into another shell. Or as a minimum do what andyrg has done, although I might just stick with the PH1 ECU and get it mapped.

Oh, and I'm not being serious :scared:

Trevhib

20-06-2010, 12:20

...it'd be best to sell this one...
-------------------------------------------

How much?! :D

clee

20-06-2010, 12:36

What about a rear mount turbo :coffee:
http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/products.asp?subcategory=rear+mount+turbocharging&category=turbocharging

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 12:43

...it'd be best to sell this one...
-------------------------------------------

How much?! :D

lol, everything has it's price, and obviously if a lottery winner came along I'd sell, but at the moment I'd quite like to have a bit more fun out of it :)

Andrew Cooke

20-06-2010, 12:44

What about a rear mount turbo :coffee:
http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/products.asp?subcategory=rear+mount+turbocharging&category=turbocharging

I couldn't find space for a brake pressure regulator out back, not much chance of me fitting a turbo there :scared:

Spooky

20-06-2010, 13:05

Andy, you can do what you want to my ECU :p

Also, that lovely inlet manifold that you showed me a few months back from JMS has been released and tested with a price...not exactly pocket change :eek:...

Andrew Cooke

25-06-2010, 20:17

it's only a little thing, but the blue samco pipe from the FPR to the plenum really offended me
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/blue.jpg?t=1277493040

Thanks to TrixNFlix popping some black pipe in the post I'm much more at peace.
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/black.jpg?t=1277493040

:cool:

I've bought some more fancy toys, but you'll have to wait for them to be fitted before you hear about them :)

Off to get the exhaust made on Monday, it'll be interesting to see what difference that made, as sticking 3x design horsepower through the standard Twingo exhaust can't be good :sad2:

Ian S

25-06-2010, 20:28

For the exhaust are you going to any company we'd have heard of?

Do you have a design in mind?

Andrew Cooke

25-06-2010, 20:48

For the exhaust are you going to any company we'd have heard of?

Do you have a design in mind?

possibly, Prospeed in Cardiff.

Design is quiet, and hopefully with a hidden tailpipe, depending upon what will fit in the limited space. Oh, and stainless.

SP33DY

26-06-2010, 08:21

What about this manifold rather than the jms one? at least with this you get a new 70mm throttle body

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Clio-Sport-172-182-Turbo-Inlet-manifold-and-plenum-/270559858484?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3efe9fcf34

Adam L

26-06-2010, 18:23

Andrew Cooke

29-06-2010, 19:54

I was down at ProSpeed in Cardiff on Monday morning to get my exhaust made up. My requirement was to make it look and sound as standard as possible, Charlie recommended 2 boxes and 2" pipe, so that's what I went with. I'm not sure how long it'll take the guys at ProSpeed to get over seeing a 2L engine shoehorned into a Twingo, but I'm sure they're making good progress :laugh:.

Anyway, so far I'm very happy, no knocks, or bangs, it's as quiet as I'd hoped, and looks pretty much standard.

Anyway, a couple of pics:
before
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/exhaustold.jpg?t=1277836726

after:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/exhaustnew.jpg?t=1277836726

you'll note that the number plates got replaced between pictures :cool: and for those that might recognise it, the star of strip (Santa Pod RTOC National Day 2003) and track (Mallory Park RTOC National Day 2009), the mystery machine, is parked to the right in both pictures...

oh, I almost forgot, when we got to look underneath at the standard system the rear box had ballooned, I guess it must have been pretty restrictive :D

Andrew Cooke

29-06-2010, 19:56

I'd want the injectors aswell at that price:crap:

which is why you use that mass produced Jap stuff, I'd have ripped their arm off to get a plenum that cheap for my 5.

Penfold aka The Dealer

29-06-2010, 19:58

Love this conversion, Andy do you think it would be hard to do again? Do you have any templates of your brackets you made?

Ph1 172 would be alot more easier and cheaper to use as a donor?

Andrew Cooke

29-06-2010, 20:10

Love this conversion, Andy do you think it would be hard to do again? Do you have any templates of your brackets you made?

Ph1 172 would be alot more easier and cheaper to use as a donor?

It'd certainly be easier to do again as I'd know which bits to use, I'm not sure that it's an easy swap as there are quite a few custom parts. I don't have any templates, everything was made on the hoof...

Yeah, def start with a PH1 unless you have the plenum, ecu and loom lying around, plus the final drive is a 3.89 which I think would be nicer than the 4.07 I have.

Obviously the easiest swap would be to fit GTT stuff.

Trevhib

29-06-2010, 22:27

So how does the new exhaust fair over the standard job Andy in terms of how the car picks up, responds, revs out? Surely it's a good deal better?

Andrew Cooke

29-06-2010, 22:47

So how does the new exhaust fair over the standard job Andy in terms of how the car picks up, responds, revs out? Surely it's a good deal better?

I've no idea, my instinct tells me it'll pick up a handful of hp at the top end, but not make much difference outside of that. It's still running the standard Cat, and that'll be the main restriction now. I couldn't give it any beans on the way back as the GF starts making funny noises over 5K, and the run to work is too short to get it warm enough to get out of the warm up map.

I guess at some point I'll have to drop it onto some rollers to get an idea of it's general health, or wire the OBD into the cockpit so that I can do some logging with the RSTuner doohicky.

btw, I've now used 3 tanks of fuel:
tank 1 38mpg
tank 2 36mpg
tank 3 38mpg

again, I need to do some comparisons between the standard map and the 'tuned' one. They feel about the same to me :scratch:

Adam L

29-06-2010, 22:48

which is why you use that mass produced Jap stuff, I'd have ripped their arm off to get a plenum that cheap for my 5.

Nothing is mass poduced on my car, apart from the stock parts:D

Ian S

29-06-2010, 23:01

It's still running the standard CatStandard Twingo Cat or Standard 172 Cat?

btw, I've now used 3 tanks of fuel:
tank 1 38mpg
tank 2 36mpg
tank 3 38mpgThat's more than I'm getting from my 1.1 litre Fiat, though I don't think that has a warm up map and it does get given plenty of beans on short journeys.

Andrew Cooke

29-06-2010, 23:07

Ian S

30-06-2010, 00:18

A pal just bought a 172 and gets 40mpg, I think he said. But that mostly his wife driving on the motorway to work and back.

f0xy

30-06-2010, 01:40

std 172 cat.

I think it's the most I've ever got out of anything, that said, I'd be happier if it did a wee bit more, but I think I'll need to fit my wb to have a look at what's going on as I think the new map might be hurting the MPG.

Mine did far far far worse on the emissions test at the MOT this year with the RSTuner (172 Ph1) Group N map on compared to last year on a standard map - the guy couldnt believe it. Still passed mind...

It does tend to stink of fuel slightly of late, wondering if ive only just noticed it though who knows.

Andrew Cooke

30-06-2010, 08:10

Mine did far far far worse on the emissions test at the MOT this year with the RSTuner (172 Ph1) Group N map on compared to last year on a standard map - the guy couldnt believe it. Still passed mind...

It does tend to stink of fuel slightly of late, wondering if ive only just noticed it though who knows.

I'd be surprised if it messed up the emissions at idle as that should be in closed loop at lambda 1. I'd put that down to either a lambda sensor or wiring problem (or possible cold cat, mine took a few minutes to light up, I was gobsmacked at the difference). I fitted a brand new sensor when I fitted the engine, and the signal looks perfect on the RSTuner.

The other small difference is that I'm not running the grpN map, rather the RON98 one (dated 23/09/2009, or is that the day I downloaded it???).

I wondering about trying the launch control version as it supposedly has an improved map.

Before the door got slammed shut I managed to download:
std
grp N
RON98
Launch

That's my one criticism of Henk, there is no clear indication of which maps have been tweaked where, or even whether paying £5 gets you anything different to the map currently used.

It's about time I hacked the maps and started playing with them myself, I hate dealing with experts.

Mart

30-06-2010, 08:52

Andy, how flexible is this RSTuner gubbins? Can you actually view/edit the ign, fuel, vvt maps etc, or is it just a rom-dump via one of Henk's downloaded files?

f0xy

30-06-2010, 11:06

Could be Lambda then - im not running a Cat at all its just a straight through downpipe onto the exhaust, never have done. Used to run cleaner and not smell as much as it does now too!

Andrew Cooke

30-06-2010, 13:03

Andy, how flexible is this RSTuner gubbins? Can you actually view/edit the ign, fuel, vvt maps etc, or is it just a rom-dump via one of Henk's downloaded files?

you can see what is going on in real time, and dump roms, no edit possible - unless you hack the files yourself...

Mart

30-06-2010, 15:34

Hexadecimal?

Andrew Cooke

30-06-2010, 17:41

Hexadecimal?

binary

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 17:33

I guess it's time for an update... I've been listening to the standard top mounts knocking, so decided I'd try some roller top mounts. I don't know of any for the twingo, so got a pair of AST Clio mounts. I wasn't certain that they'd fit, but I have a lathe, so it's no bother to modify stuff if it's close.

Last night I pulled a strut off, and checked that the mount fitted the car. Perfect fit, so nothing to do there. When it came to fitting them to the dampers it was clear that I'd need to do a bit of work. I spent about an hour measuring everything and deciding which bits to modify.

In the end I decided to bore out the H+R top seat to fit the AST bearing, then shorten the AST bearing seat, and bore it out to sit right on the damper top.

before:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/struttop5.jpg?t=1278167712

standard and machined parts:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/struttop4.jpg?t=1278167762

after:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/struttop6.jpg?t=1278167802

boring out the H+R spring seat
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/struttop7.jpg?t=1278167861

all assembled:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/struttop8.jpg?t=1278167933

when it came to bolting it together the top nuts only had a couple of turns of thread engaged, I decided to modify the nut to sit deeper in the bearing.

standard nut:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/nut.jpg?t=1278168086

I dropped them into the lathe and cut the shoulder deeper into the nut, and recut the taper to ensure it didn't clash with the bearing housing:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/struttop9.jpg?t=1278168187

fitted, showing much better thread engagement

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/struttop10.jpg?t=1278168299

I've not driven it yet, so fingers crossed for an improvement :D

Brigsy

03-07-2010, 17:41

Awesome work:agree: Looking forward to seeing this in action at nd:)

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 17:50

Awesome work:agree: Looking forward to seeing this in action at nd:)

thanks :)

me too, not much left to sort out before then. I need to trim the rear arches a bit as it occasionally touches, and set the suspension up.

Mart

03-07-2010, 18:40

binary

Might pop down sometime next month (if you're about) and have a sniff around that RSTuner setup, if that's ok?

Is it 'locked' to one car/ecu after initial use, or plug n' play any ecu?

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 18:50

Might pop down sometime next month (if you're about) and have a sniff around that RSTuner setup, if that's ok?

Is it 'locked' to one car/ecu after initial use, or plug n' play any ecu?

sure, or national day? It's locked to an ECU (Spooky's in my case :() but you can pay to get it unlocked. In reality there isn't much to see.

Mart

03-07-2010, 18:53

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 19:04

:agree: Just interested to see how easy (!) it would be to modify the binary tables, and how that translates to what's logged.

I might be purchasing one myself soon, that's all. Try before ya buy & all that...

I don't think you can mod the binaries the RSTuner uses as I think it scrambles them, I can send you some to play with if you want, but don't get your hopes up. I think you need to use something else to read and write to the ECU, but I'm not sure whether the ECU uses a checksum. I was thinking about buying a reader/writer and using it to download a standard and modded map from the ECU to see what's what.

I was looking at Gallello (sp) clones, but it appears that the Sirius32 needs both K and L lines working, and the clones only use the K line. I need to dig a bit deeper. I might get Scoff drunk at the National Day and see what drivel he comes up with :laugh:

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 19:07

:laugh:

Why not simply go after-market? eg, Adaptronic?

I'll say no more :scared:

Mart

03-07-2010, 19:40

I think you need to use something else to read and write to the ECU

Something like KWP2000?

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 19:55

Something like KWP2000?

something like, but not that, doesn't support sirius 32

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 19:58

this:
http://www.chiptuners.org/?p=13

but I'm reading that the clones are iffy with the sirius32, if you're getting a later car it'll be sirius34 so may be OK as they don't use the L line.

Andrew Cooke

03-07-2010, 23:14

I've had a bit of catching on the rear, so decided to drive one rear onto a ramp to see what catches:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/slammed3.jpg?t=1278194694

I trimmed off the bits that have been catching, but it if ever gets this much travel I'll need to either roll, or trim a bit off the forward edge of the arch
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/slammed2.jpg?t=1278194693

and a bit off the bumper edge
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/slammed1.jpg?t=1278194693

I've left it for now to see how I get on.

Whilst I had the front suspension off I took the opportunity to raise it 10mm, I felt the nose down stance made it look like some fool had dropped a heavy engine in. It's also been using the bump stops a bit too much, so hopefully those few mm's will help.

andyrg

04-07-2010, 17:48

What a project from start till now ( ill not say end ;) )

Andrew Cooke

12-07-2010, 21:38

a small, yet still slightly crappy clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we8n3GFOh9w

Os8472

12-07-2010, 21:47

a small, yet still slightly crappy clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we8n3GFOh9w

Sounds good but you need to speed up your gearchanges

Andrew Cooke

12-07-2010, 21:53

Sounds good but you need to speed up your gearchanges

don't stress yourself over my gearchanges :D

Os8472

12-07-2010, 22:14

don't stress yourself over my gearchanges :D

Just messin with ya

Trevhib

12-07-2010, 23:01

Ace! That looks brill Andy :agree:

I forgot it would be LHD.

rs250nut

14-07-2010, 17:20

a small, yet still slightly crappy clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we8n3GFOh9w

Sweet sounds good, can we have a longer clip through a set of twisteys:)

Andrew Cooke

14-07-2010, 17:47

Sweet sounds good, can we have a longer clip through a set of twisteys:)

not on the road, no. There should be something after Mallory :)

Adey aka Ewok

15-07-2010, 17:50

really do hope you can find away of mapping the stock ecu defo intrested in that ability

Andrew Cooke

26-07-2010, 21:20

The optimist in me thought the springs that came with the H+R kit would be fine with the heavier engine. They're progressive rate, so should just find there own level, or maybe not...

I initially set the platforms to the standard recommended position to see how things worked out. It sat a bit nose down for my liking, but I gave it a try. Unfortunately I could feel that it was spending too much time in the bump stops on B roads giving a choppy ride. Whilst I had the struts off to fit the roller top mounts I took the opportunity to lift the suspension 10mm. This improved the ride a lot, so I was happy with that, but unfortunately something started to bang when hitting bumps in corners. It's taken a bit of investigation, but I'm pretty sure the springs are going coilbound. The problem with rising rate springs is that you don't really know what rate they are, so I've had to take a bit of a guess at a linear spring that will allow more travel, give a decent ride, not bash into the bump stops, and be a sensible height without being able to rattle on droop.... I trawled over the Eibach spring catalogue, scratched my head, considered the cost of pairs of springs that would probably be wrong and decided to buy a pair of cheapie springs off Rallydesign (60mm ID, 7", 300lb/in). Hopefully I'll have time to get them tested before I fit them as I'm not confident what rate they'll really be, but we'll see...

Andrew Cooke

31-07-2010, 20:01

the spring saga continues. After a week of general disappointment in my quest for some new springs, I've finally had some success. I emailed Curtis at AST this morning to see whether he had any springs in the range I was looking for. The man is a star, no only did he have stocks of everything I was considering he was also going to be working a bit late today, so I had time to drive over to Tewkesbury and pick a pair of springs. I was sort of hoping that he'd only have one of the many options I was thinking about as that would save me having to decide which. I'd narrowed the rate down to either 40N/mm or 50N/mm, I think the 40s would work better, but the twingo has very little suspension travel, and no anti roll bar, so even though I believe the 40s to be a better rate I went for the 50s. Curtis was very patient as I ummed and arred, and went through all the numbers I'd written down one more time. I came away with a pair of 50N/mm 170mm long springs.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/springs1.jpg?t=1280600667
The blue spring is the H+R progressive one and the orange the new one. It was a relief to see the marking on the H+R springs that confirmed that they had been going coil bound.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/springs2.jpg?t=1280600667

I'd estimated that the new springs wanted about 10mm of preload to give the same rideheight as before. That worked out to be spot on.

So, good news, the new springs fit, sit the car at a sensible rideheight, and won't go coilbound. It just remains to be seen how well they work on the road, will I be smashing through the bumpstops or bounce all over the road?

I'm going to try and measure the original springs at work, it'll be useful to know at what load they go coilbound.

Andrew Cooke

02-08-2010, 20:11

I did something today which would have been useful to have done before buying new springs, but being a daily driver I couldn't be without it for a day. I measured the rising rate springs that came with the H+R kit. A plot first, then I'll explain what's what.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/springrate.jpg?t=1280774631
The plot is spring travel in mm against load in Newtons, I've zeroed everything so that 0mm is static ride height and 0N is with the 2150N of static load removed. As you go up the vertical axis you're going into bump, and down droop. There is only 33mm of droop available, and at 27mm of bump you start to get into the bump rubbers. Ideally I'd have removed a bump rubber to measure that too.

Looking at the rising rate spring first, at 45mm of bump it goes coilbound, the suspension was getting this far on mid corner potholes and banging most horribly. This is still 18mm into the bump rubber.

Then the 40N/mm linear spring, this is the kind of rate you'd expect on a tarmac rally car, and where I'd like to have been, as you can see it's a lot like the progressive spring in bump, but has more travel so won't go coilbound. It would drive much like the original H+R spring, but without going coilbound (this 170mm spring has 18mm more compression available than the standard progressive one).

Finally the 50N/mm spring. It doesn't feel too bad on the road, I think this is because it's not going so hard into the bump rubber. I don't like the choppy feel of the rubber, and certainly the car feels less disturbed by bumps.

All in all I'm happy with the 50N/mm springs, I wouldn't mind trying the softer ones out of interest, but it's not that important, I think I'd rather play with the bump rubbers first.

Andrew Cooke

17-08-2010, 12:12

Sat in the pitlane at Mallory I clocked exactly 190,000kms, so thought I'd take a picture for posterity. Pity you can't actually read the numbers, they're on the display in the centre of the dash.

You do get to see the impressive array of instrumentation offered by the twingo dash :)
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/190000kms_small.jpg?t=1281948149

Spooky

17-08-2010, 12:59

How do you keep your eyes on the road with all those guages to monitor Andy? :D

Andrew Cooke

17-08-2010, 13:12

How do you keep your eyes on the road with all those guages to monitor Andy? :D

I have an audible rev counter a bit like the F1 boys, at about 5000rpm it starts to make a noise, and just before the optimum gear change point it says "Andrew" in a loud high pitched voice...

Ian S

17-08-2010, 13:48

Maybe you should consider a swap with my pals mrs.

He says she constantly complains, "why didn't you over take that; go on the left; too slow missed the lights; no the right; why are you waiting...

Spooky

17-08-2010, 23:35

I have an audible rev counter a bit like the F1 boys, at about 5000rpm it starts to make a noise, and just before the optimum gear change point it says "Andrew" in a loud high pitched voice...

I'm impressed and very jealous :D

I'd love for my car to shout my name back at me :laugh:

Andrew Cooke

20-08-2010, 16:38

I've been harvesting all the pictures posted of my car at Mallory and put them all in one place. The problem is I can't remember who posted them, obviously a lot came from Penfold, but anyway, thanks to everyone who did. If you have a clip of me driving past I'd like to see it as I have no idea what it sounds like :)

http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Mallory%20Park%202010/

Anyway, last tank of fuel was driving to and from Mallory, probably 20 laps and a drive down to London returned 39mph, you can't help but appreciate modern engines :)

Just dropped the latest RSTuner map into the ECU, not sure why, but I thought it was worth a go.

I'm thinking about fitting an LSD, I have a gripper, so could get that rebuilt, but I'm thinking that a Quaife might be the way to go for a road car, so if anyone fancies a swap...

Andrew Cooke

20-08-2010, 16:48

I've also been playing 'hunt the map' in some ECU cal files, I found some, but no idea what they are...

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/map.jpg?t=1282319238

Matt Cole

20-08-2010, 19:15

I've also been playing 'hunt the map' in some ECU cal files, I found some, but no idea what they are...

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/AndrewCooke/Twingo/map.jpg?t=1282319238

That map looks like a klingon's forehead!!!!!

Andrew Cooke

20-08-2010, 19:46

That map looks like a klingon's forehead!!!!!

that might explain a lot :D

jesus in the seat of a 5

20-08-2010, 22:02

MFaulks

21-08-2010, 11:54

I've also been playing 'hunt the map' in some ECU cal files, I found some, but no idea what they are...

Andy, is this Renix / Fenix ecu? If you want, send me the BIN file and the XDF you have generated and I'll compare and drop in &/or correct the table descriptions and locations for you etc - let me know what the ecu is from. As long as we line up the first table correctly the rest will drop in, I have them mapped out for quite a few of the versions / applications having spent ages grafting a later generation n/a ecu on a turbo GTA. Offer’s there bud.

Andrew Cooke

21-08-2010, 16:46

Andy, is this Renix / Fenix ecu? If you want, send me the BIN file and the XDF you have generated and I'll compare and drop in &/or correct the table descriptions and locations for you etc - let me know what the ecu is from. As long as we line up the first table correctly the rest will drop in, I have them mapped out for quite a few of the versions / applications having spent ages grafting a later generation n/a ecu on a turbo GTA. Offer’s there bud.

unfortunately it's the Sirius 32, I don't know if that changes things.

I'm playing with tunerpro, I can see some maps, and as you see I can get them into a 3D view. I assume that this one is ignition timing, rpm against MAP, not sure of the rpm and MAP steps though. I've also created a few tables, but what I haven't figured out is how to get the map into the table. There appear to be several ignition maps, not sure what they all are, or which one is usually used. I suppose i could guess it as the one with the most advance.

I've got to work out how the checksum works, but since I have a couple of files to look at I can probably sort that.

MFaulks

21-08-2010, 19:23

Yeap, it does for me, I don't know the Sirius hardware, sorry mate. From the above you've got two maps merging I think.
You will need to play around. I'm more than happy to look if you wing it over, and bounce ideas around, sometimes just nice to not be locked in
the dark on your own on these, and I know well having been doing a lot lately. Go on the WinOLS website and down load their
demo prog, all you need. Then look at the BIN with their hex tool with graphic on the right (simple bar chart) - don't bother with the 2D and 3D graphs. This will make finding the maps easy (correct no. rows v columns), certainly the start and stop, you
then need to work out what they are for. I prefer not to work in 2D or 3D graph for this stage as raw numbers is actually easier - well my pref. You should be able to find the rpm break-point table
with WinOLS as well, the formula is a disassembly job. But should be able to put in a rough guess, knowing the engine operating range. What processor is the Sirius based? I use an emulator as well, just depends what hardware you have.
It's likely the other maps are trim maps, if you can rom emulate than burn chips, you can quickly find out by setting them to zero and run. Ah check sum fun ;-)

MFaulks

21-08-2010, 20:11

Andrew Cooke

21-08-2010, 20:23

Looking at the above, yes ignition, and think it's 9 columns by 13 rows, so your fuel map will almost certainly be the same.

Not sure what you mean by getting the map into the table? Have you setup the fields in the XDF items properties?

it's 9x20 I think, the 20 being RPM, at a guess 400rpm steps.
There is a map of the same size that I think is fuel, I'd have thought it would be 16bit though, but this one is 8 bit. I've also found a large 16 bit map, but not sure what it is.

The Sirius ECU uses a siemens (infineon) C167-SR processor. It's also MAP driven.

I've just started playing with winols, I've had a play before, and just confused myself, I'm going to try a bit harder now. Just need to work out how to create the maps.

Andrew Cooke

21-08-2010, 20:36

interesting, winols won't open the modified ecu files, but tunerpro will. I think I know what to do to make it work, but it'll probably stuff the checksum. In the meantime I can look at the standard file OK, so that'll do.

MFaulks

21-08-2010, 21:08

Andrew Cooke

21-08-2010, 21:24

C167-SR.. ooo nice processor, can't believe I'm saying that as an adult... 10 bit ADC.. kinda points to 20 points nicely doesn't it?

Not surprised the fuel and ignition map is 8bit, faster single cycle execution as probably a 2 byte instruction; not that speed would really be an issue with this hammer, but more likely 16bit resolution is just over-kill. How big is the 16 bit table?

By way how did you measure your spring rates, what kit did you use?

Happy hunting ;)

I think the 20 points are on the rpm axis, so the ADC won't come into it.

The 16bit table looks to be 17x13, no idea what it is. Would there be something like a lookup table for temperature correction? It just seems out of all proportion to everything else. Once I've got a bit further I'll send what I have over.

For the spring tester we have an ancient bit of kit lurking in the corner of R+D, you can do all sorts of fancy step measurements, but for dunces like me you can manually drive the platform up and down and read off mm and N (or whatever units you fancy). I took it all the way to coilbound as that's what was happening on the road

MFaulks

21-08-2010, 23:36

Nice bit of kit to have available :)

Yes in your above the 20 point is rpm, but surprising they wouldn't use all the available accuracy on the ADC for MAP resolution, pass...

What sensor inputs do you have, and is it open loop or closed loop control? What else does the ecu control outside of the engine, if indeed it does?

I think in something like this you would have a table of temp correction (trims), but in many cases a simple 2D single row, just depends.

Knock sensitivity table?

Andrew Cooke

21-08-2010, 23:55

inputs
TDC
MAP
TPS
AIT
knock
O2
vehicle speed
coolant temp
PAS switch

outputs
injectors
coils
ISCV
VVC solenoid
injector relay
fuel pump relay
slow fan relay
fast fan relay
carbon canister

plus some AC stuff

It certainly runs closed loop some of the time (idle, part throttle), I'm not sure how the corrections change the rest of the map, if at all.

btw, I've managed to get WinOLS to read the modified map you gotta love those FFs...