First time GT Turbo owner

[Chesney84]

Hi guys, been a member on here for a few months and thought I'd open a thread on here to share my experiences and more likely than not to pick your collective brains when I come across something I'm unsure of! ;)

Purchased the car in October after wanting one for quite a while but for some reason or another always seemed to go out and buy something else. Better late than never I suppose and probably just in time as prices seem to be going North for these cars at the minute. Anyway, the car is standard inside and out and fairly tidy. the engine bay has some blue Samco hoses but apart from a SS exhaust is standard. My plan is to keep the interior and exterior completely factory, just lowered and tidied up, but then build a second engine and gearbox that I will switch out some time in the future and keep the original engine and turbo in the garage. Anyway heres a pic of the 5!

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[Chesney84]

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[Chesney84]

Small photo of it in this months issue of Modern classics when they did a feature on Bicester Heritage Sunday Scramble:
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[Chesney84]

Engine bay:
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[Chesney84]

Recently bought a cheap bottom end off eBay and began my engine build project. It had sat in a shed/garage for nigh on 8 years and was a little rusty but on inspection seems in very good condition bar the surface rust! Heres some photo's from the teardown:
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Block is now at the acid dippers then will be hot washed and the top of the block will be checked to ensure its true and doesn't need machining. Will get a coat of black VHT wrinkle paint when its back as well!

[Keef layton]

Looks very tidy mate iv always loved the black 5s :love::love:

[Chesney84]

With all the bits stripped and the engine at the dippers thought I'd make a start on cleaning the parts I'm hoping to re-use. The cam is tidy and doesn't seem to have faired too badly so will get this re-profiled at some point rather than buy new:
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Same for the crankshaft, this will be re-used and machined. All the bits were thoroughly degreased and cleaned in a tray of brake cleaner with scotchbrite pads then cleaned in a high pressure hot water tank with detergent. Didn't come out too badly at all:
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The standard flywheel is going to be lightened and the clutch face refinished but for now just got a good clean:
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[Chesney84]

Decided to stick with stock con-rods I think, these will be NDT'd and inspected at work, then will go for shot peen and be lightened and balanced to mating forged pistons. Standard pistons are going to be removed this week. Also considering spark eroding a small hole through the con-rod and gas-porting the pistons (see link:http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?41696-Engine-build-the-money-pit-opens )
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Here's some more of the parts cleaned up that may be re-used:
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And final picture for tonight is the cam chain cover. Began to corrode badly inside and paint had started to peel, so cleaned it thoroughly then media blasted it to remove all the paint and corrosion. Going to be getting a nice coat of Black wrinkle VHT paint as well. Will arrive this week so will post photos as soon as its done:
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[Chesney84]

Thinking of doing rocker cover and inlet manifold in VHT Red Wrinkle:
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And doing engine block in VHT Black Wrinkle along with cam chain cover:
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Have a rocker cover arriving this week as well so will post photo's of how they both look (black and red) and you can mock or praise it either way:laugh:

[Chesney84]

Looks very tidy mate iv always loved the black 5s :love::love:

Thanks buddy :niceone:

I'd always wanted a Tungy grey 5 but when I saw this I fell in love with it, and in all honesty I think I prefer the black over the grey now but perhaps I'm biased!;)

[tubbyG]

Welcome to the club.

That looks like a nice 5. Interested to see the progress of your build:agree:

[Chesney84]

So been a few days but here is progress so far:
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Going to re-use the cam followers, so these were cleaned and the sides lightly scotchbrite'd to remove the tarnish.
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The face of the follower was polished to remove the sheen and prep the surface for the cam when it is re-profiled.
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I have a friend who was able to obtain two syringes of diamond polishing paste, a fine (RED) or an incredibly fine (BROWN). These were polished on a small surface table until the shine was removed and the ever so slight mark left by the cam was removed.
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[Chesney84]

Next up I received the two tins of VHT wrinkle paint I ordered so have started to paint some of the parts whilst the engine is at dipping. First time using this product and love the finish it gives, makes any part look "factory" almost.
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The cam chain cover was looking tatty as the paint has started to peel and corrode inside and out. Gave it a wash then media blasted it
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Then degreased and put it in the oven to take the chill off it and warm it up slightly
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Sprayed 3 times, with a different direction on each application, with 5 minute intervals then baked in the oven at 100 degrees to cure/ dry it.

[Chesney84]

This next one is likely to divide the camp. I know most people hate them but I love dump valves, I know there is debate and arguments either way to suggest they detract rather than add to performance. However, the sound of a car making that infamous "whooooosh" always takes me back to my youth. Over the years I've had various brands of DV on my Impreza's (Forge, Turbosmart) but one in particular left its mark on me. The HKS SSQV - its so unique in its sound and operation. I bought a genuine early model (as most of the newer ones are heavily counterfeited now) second hand off of eBay and thought I'd give it a service.
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Stripped down and shot blasted
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Wrinkle VHT Red painted
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Whilst it was in parts I ordered a new O-Ring and circlip, new stainless steel bolts, dome nuts and a flange adaptor to match up with my pipework. All the internals - seal, diaphragm and spring were all cleaned and checked.
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Today I hooked it up to a regulator and checked it held pressure and actuated as it should. Sounds fantastic (to my ears anyway!);)
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Really happy with the look of it. Looks factory fresh although in hindsight think I would have preferred it in black but better than chrome IMHO.

[Matt Cole]

Love this thread matey. Keep it updated!!!

[tubbyG]

Nice work, those followers have come up a treat, look as good as new :yeah:

[Chesney84]

Thanks chaps! :)

[Ian S]

Double piston is a lot better for 'off boost' keeping the pressure at maybe 6psi, whereas the single piston dumps it all. After a single piston, I used a Bailey double piston DV.

Another thing not so far mentioned that you might light to deal with is the rockers face that rubs on the followers. It seems that they wear and when fitting a taller cam, it moves them further, past their clean area, and there a much louder tapping noise than with the original camshaft, that eventually goes after maybe a thousand or so miles. Grinding those end wear edges off the faces might stop that and provide a quiet result.

[Chesney84]

Thanks for the advice again Ian! The rocker face tuning is a great idea!

[Chesney84]

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Fitted the DV today just to try it out and make sure it operated ok on the car! Missed that sound, and yes I know the blue hoses and red valve clash :chuckup: (all the hoses will be replaced by red eventually!):D

[Chesney84]

Oh and a sneaky peak of the block before the hot wash now that’s it’s been dipped, more photos of it to follow when I receive it on Monday!
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[Chesney84]

Had a bit of a potter about today on the 5, fitted a K-Tec front strut brace:
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Swapped out the standard intercooler for a second hand one which I bought off a member here:
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Had a leaky boost hose around the pressure sensor which I smegged up as a temporary fix so swapped that out for a replacement (albeit 2nd hand as will be replacing all when I swap out the engine anyway).
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Also fitted a towing eye as this was missing when I bought the car (had it blasted and then powder coated)
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And finally, the rear seat was missing the handles that allow you to tilt the seat, one was missing completely and the other was snapped so fitted a replacement set:
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Nothing exciting really, just lots of dicky little jobs to sort. Then gave it a good clean and polish!

[Chesney84]

Also managed to snaffle half a roll of gold tape. This isn't the crap stuff you see on eBay but the genuine stuff that contains actual gold. Planning on doing the parts of the bulkhead and sections underneath of the bonnet when I swap the engine over:
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Also got some of this GTechniq plastic restoration treatment. This stuff is the mutts and have already tried it out on a few small areas. The big bottle is a detergent degreaser which you mix with water and wash the trim/ part. Then apply the contents of the small bottle with a cotton pad (like your missus takes her face off with). Genuinely takes white and tired grey trim back to factory fresh:
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And here she is after her clean today:
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Booked the Friday before the retro show off in order to get her fully minted up for the club stand and cleaned prior to driving to the show Saturday morning.

[Chesney84]

Been a while since I updated the thread but some jobs I've done are painted the rocker cover and polished up a second hand GT Tuning Ninja star oil cap:
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Really love the wrinkle paint, can be quite tricky to get proper even coverage so it doesn't run or not wrinkle because its too thin but well worth the effort. This was my second attempt as the first went pear shaped!

[Chesney84]

Oil pump was fully stripped and cleaned. The mating faces were skimmed/ polished to get the tolerance to the vane as close as possible and shimmed out the plunger to aid oil pressure:
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Another small job was to do away with the standard wipers as I prefer the clean look of the aero blades, going to order a Mk1 Clio rear arm for the back to tidy up the tailgate as well:
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[Chesney84]

Got the block back from the dippers now and its mint. The engine services firm I'm using also went to the trouble of hot washing it when it returned to get it a bit cleaner and stoned all the mating and machined faces for me and wire wheeled any little bits that weren't up to scratch! Looks better than it did off the shelf 28 years ago:
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[Chesney84]

And finally to stop it flash rusting while I'm working on it I've covered it in VHT Engine Grey Primer and WD40. The VHT range is great and really seems to do what it says on the tin!
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Now that the block is back I can start the real work. Awaiting a price for some 77mm Wössner pistons and Westwood Ductile Liners. Might be able to get these at trade price so with the money saved I'm toying with the idea of getting some PEC forged rods as well instead of re-using the standard cast items.
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In the mean time I'm going to work all the internal cast marks and raised areas within the engine to tidy it up and aid oil and water flow, tap out all the threads and blue-print as much as I can!
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Will spend a bit more time at the weekend in depth explaining my plans and some better photos etc.:)

[Ian S]

I was told that you can see the con rods are forged by looking at them as the imprint from the press is evident. Was he not correct?

[Matt Cole]

That block has come out fantastic!!!

[Chesney84]

I was told that you can see the con rods are forged by looking at them as the imprint from the press is evident. Was he not correct?

I think the standard rods are cast then machine finished aren’t they? Or am I missing something?

[Chesney84]

That block has come out fantastic!!!

I know. I’m really impressed worth the way it’s come out. Acid Dip, hot wash then finished with wire wheels/ brushes. Now coated in VHT primer temporarily then will be hot washed before final build!

[Matty]

Car looks great! Good to see everything being done properly. :agree:

[Chesney84]

Car looks great! Good to see everything being done properly. :agree:

Thanks matey, not in a rush to build it so going to take my time and do everything right!

[Chesney84]

Right so its been a very productive start to the week! When I got in this morning I popped the flywheel in a tray full of Frosts Rust Remover and I'm astonished by the results! It smells almost fruity and doesn't have any major warning labels or hazardous symbols so I can only assume its Citric acid based. It can be re-used often until it becomes too contaminated, if you have a look further up the thread you can see the flywheel in some other shots of parts from when I got the engine and you wouldn't believe its the same flywheel now. When things get a little quieter a work I plan to lightly skim the face and lighten it, but for now this will do:
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[Chesney84]

After toying back and forth as to whether or not to go Forged or Standard I have decided to stick with the original conrods, so once the flywheel was out, in they went to the Frosts Rust Remover bath. Once removed from the "acid-bath" they went into the hot pressure wash tank and they looked brand new (if not better).
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Now I'm very fortunate to work in a company that has some incredible facilities and equipment, so once I'd finished with them, I dropped them in at our inspection and NDT department. They were Magnaflux'd followed by a thorough inspection to confirm that they were sound which they were. From there I dropped them into Laser Etching and had them labelled up to save any confusion and to assist with the build.
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[Chesney84]

And now on to the interesting stuff! Looking at the ARP catalogue and online I couldn't find any uprated rod bolts anywhere for use with the standard rods for a C1J. My colleague (the old boy who's building the engine with me) said he had just the thing for me:
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They are a 3/8" BMC A-Series rod bolt kit, the plan being to machine the bores to accept the bolts then slightly machine the land on the top of the rod to accommodate the different head shape. I was amazed how close they were to the original bolt.
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Very little material will have to be removed in order to accommodate the new bolts, the shank length is perfect (even better than the original), and the wider part of the shank sits nicely in the join of the two halves of the conrod.
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These will be bored out to accommodate the bolts, then the mating faces will be lightly skimmed, the conrod reassembled then honed back to size for the bearing. People may think this is a lot of work on standard rods, however, these will be more than man enough for the task in hand, the ARP bolts were peanuts as were unwanted stock so haven't cost me much and the machine work will be at mates rates. Even adding all this up they will be cheaper than reputable forged Rods. One final thing to add is that after advice received from people on this forum I have aborted the spark eroded squirt jet hole in the rods I previously suggested, deciding in favour of a conrod oil squirter groove.
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It works in the same way by promoting splash of spent oil from the bearing towards the piston crown, but without the fear of damage from oil starvation or low pressure that may occur by robbing the bearing feed with the hole. Hope that makes sense :) Once this groove has been machined in the rods are planning on getting shot peened locally.

[Chesney84]

Oh and my engine guy, Steve, is heading to the states again at the end of the month with his drag racing and is taking a used main and head bolt with him. He says that the trackside ARP reps out there cannot be more helpful if they tried (and considerably cheaper too), so he's going to try and locate studs and nuts to match the bolts in length and shank. The plan being to have the head and main bearings on studs and nuts instead of bolts. Another thing I've forgotten to mention is that the head and block will both be having machining to accommodate an additional ring dowel (two instead of one) for a more positive location. More to follow tomorrow, if real work doesn't get in the way of my engine work!

[Matt Cole]

What a brilliant thread this is turning out to be! Very interesting and the attention to detail for the engine is awesome!

Stuart Clarke used a company called KPM for all his engine builds. They were 'old school bit did everything properly. His engine was very well received in the drag racing community.

[Chesney84]

What a brilliant thread this is turning out to be! Very interesting and the attention to detail for the engine is awesome!

Stuart Clarke used a company called KPM for all his engine builds. They were 'old school bit did everything properly. His engine was very well received in the drag racing community.

Thanks pal! Steve (the old boy I work with who’s guiding me through this build) used to work as an engine builder in Germany for BMW in the F1 Turbo era and was trackside building and looking after them. Nowadays he spends his time building drag engines for his main client and at the request of others. Can’t remember whether it’s pro-mod or pro-stock. He knows his stuff so much that his client is flying him out to the states at the end of the month to do some work for him! He is very old school and most of what we are doing is in his head. I have basically told him to build one as if it were his own, and I’m just taking instruction from him. We may have changed direction from the original 250+ bhp plan we talked about, instead going for something more “conservative” but with ultra fast spool up and lots of low-end torque. Before any of that though we are just getting all the basics sorted then will decide which route we are taking!

[francob80]

After toying back and forth as to whether or not to go Forged or Standard I have decided to stick with the original conrods, so once the flywheel was out, in they went to the Frosts Rust Remover bath. Once removed from the "acid-bath" they went into the hot pressure wash tank and they looked brand new (if not better).
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Now I'm very fortunate to work in a company that has some incredible facilities and equipment, so once I'd finished with them, I dropped them in at our inspection and NDT department. They were Magnaflux'd followed by a thorough inspection to confirm that they were sound which they were. From there I dropped them into Laser Etching and had them labelled up to save any confusion and to assist with the build.
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Recently bent a standard rod but pushing 230-235lbft, not bad at all.

[Matt Cole]

Recently bent a standard rod but pushing 230-235lbft, not bad at all.

I remember Stu clarke running ~40psi of boost through the carb on stock rods and crank. They did eventually bend!!:eek:

[Matt Cole]

Thanks pal! Steve (the old boy I work with who’s guiding me through this build) used to work as an engine builder in Germany for BMW in the F1 Turbo era and was trackside building and looking after them. Nowadays he spends his time building drag engines for his main client and at the request of others. Can’t remember whether it’s pro-mod or pro-stock. He knows his stuff so much that his client is flying him out to the states at the end of the month to do some work for him! He is very old school and most of what we are doing is in his head. I have basically told him to build one as if it were his own, and I’m just taking instruction from him. We may have changed direction from the original 250+ bhp plan we talked about, instead going for something more “conservative” but with ultra fast spool up and lots of low-end torque. Before any of that though we are just getting all the basics sorted then will decide which route we are taking!
Very interested in what your builder says about the 1950's Cleon engine, and whether any improvements can be made?

[Chesney84]

Recently bent a standard rod but pushing 230-235lbft, not bad at all.

Thats double the standard torque so not bad at all really! :) Although I have heard a lot of scare stories suggesting the method of heating them up to remove the pins can often be the culprit of bent rods.

[Chesney84]

I remember Stu clarke running ~40psi of boost through the carb on stock rods and crank. They did eventually bend!!:eek:

Thats is an impressive amount of boost, no wonder they gave in! :laugh:

[Chesney84]

Very interested in what your builder says about the 1950's Cleon engine, and whether any improvements can be made?

Steve just wants everything doing right, down to every last component to ensure we get the best/ most from each of them. He has no intention of re-inventing the wheel, and we both know that pretty much every avenue will have been tried and exhausted over the years with the aim of maximising power, torque, boost, spool up etc. He's big on drivability over out and out power when it comes to his road builds -suggesting we build an engine thats strong throughout the rev range, with a strong torque curve, rather than something too laggy or peaky. Although we do realise that ultimately this will limit the max power we will be able to achieve. Not only that but a well prepped and built engine with moderate power will be far more reliable and maintenance friendly than a high power one on the limit. Current specs are being considered at the minute, but thinking so far is a small to medium turbo, increase compression ratio (through skimming), fully lightened and balanced bottom end, water-methanol injection in order to allow us to run a little more advance, some nice valves and headwork. Ultimately power will not be the headline grabbing figures I was hoping and quoting to achieve at the start of this build/ thread, but in the real world, on real roads a well sorted ~175bhp "5" will be as quick as 250bhp lag monster grappling for grip and torque steering everywhere. As soon as we have a definitive spec, I'll update the thread so you can all throw your ideas into the mix

[francob80]

Ultimately power will not be the headline grabbing figures I was hoping and quoting to achieve at the start of this build/ thread, but in the real world, on real roads a well sorted ~175bhp "5" will be as quick as 250bhp lag monster grappling for grip and torque steering everywhere.

Completely disagree.

I'm around 255hp/230lbft, spooling by 3k, 20psi by 4k, full boost by just over 5k and revving to 7.5k, literally no torque steer and almost zero issues with grip with R888s. The power is so progressive you don't get a sudden hit of torque/power spinning the wheels. Granted hard launches would spin the tyres in 1st & 2nd but as a road car it's good all round package. In short, a 175hp 5 wouldn't stand a chance. I'd argue you'll struggle more with lack of grip and torque steer with a smaller turbo/quick spooling set up.

[Ian S]

• Do you really need those fancy bolts when all the load is in compression and the standard ones have proven for decades to be up to the job. Unless you're aiming for 10,000rpm where there's more load on the bolts as they stop the pistons from hitting the head. But you can't rev that C1J, Sparkie tried, he found there's insufficient lubrication to the cam and it's bearings ovalise, and the push rods keep coming off and often bending. I don't recall any problems with the rods or bolts though. Jim said you can see the standard rods are forged by the shape and marks of the edges where they were stamped by the press . I've not confirmed that elsewhere, nor compared cast and forged so I don't personally know.

• As Scoff will tell you, when properly mapped, ie, not the Renix ECU, the water injection makes no difference to the boost you can run / power you can make. I had water inj in the 5 from about 15 years ago, it may have allowed another psi or two, but I couldn't retard the advance a bit at 3500 when it pinked a tiny bit, which would have been better.

• Big valves reduce the gas velocity over the ports and cause a laggy lower drive-ability engine. They're good for big power. Plenty of 5GTT owners have had big valve heads and said the same.

• Pretty soon, 175bhp is boring and slow, and it's NOT quicker, on the lanes, duals and motorways anyway. I probably had approaching that in the earlier engine, but the latter one...., different category, seemed twice as fast everywhere, could overtake with ease on lanes where before there just wasn't quite enough speed differential available. In traffic and 20 to 40mph it can be more hard work, so if you plan to only use the car in the city at that speed then yes, a small turbo, low boost, will be better, otherwise, no. From the late 1990's onward, just about everyone made 200bhp with modest tuning and boost and none of the extreme work you're doing. And had reliability. Standard head, no port matching, standard compression, standard valves, no water injection, no skimmed block, no wire ringing liner tops, no 'steel; liners, no extreme lightening and balancing (like I had, courtesy of Jim) usually no dished pistons, no fancy rods, bolts, no 4 into 1 exhaust, etc.. For 220 to 320bhp and above, then yes.

Not being antagonistic :) Just that we know. So many of us have been there, done it, over many years of experimentation. The work you're doing is more of an academic exercise that probably won't yield much, if any benefit. There have been, more or less standard, engines making plenty of power and done many miles with reliability, 'Tractor Trev', used to drag race his 5, was one of the quick men, and had, in large text on the rear window, 250,000 miles (completed with that engine I think it was).

Both my failures were at 7000rpm, where collects came off, it looks like, both cases, first one anyway, so not boost or power related. 25psi, high revving for years, flat shifting often, medium and big turbo, boost and torque, engine bit of a lash up experiment really, like many from big Jim, but they worked well and were not unreliable and were part of a development program. Not doing 10,000 revs :) I live in eastern London in the traffic, but also near the county lanes and duals, which now days have a camera every few hundred metres, so no longer any point in driving a fast car.

I get it for people who now need a standard OE engine bay to maintain originality for the resale value, or don't have the support to do a better power plant, but, after 15 years of driving a 5GTT, the latter half modified with probably 220bhp and plenty of ft lbs, I'd not go back to that clattering noisy, low revving, inefficient, 8 valve antique tractor engine from, or before, the 1950s. Unless needing a 1.4 to avoid higher cat tax, With more cc's, 1.7 or 2 litre, one can have both the easy low speed driving, quiet, a mountain of torque, controllable 250bhp, 230 ft lbs from just 6psi boost. A couple of pals had the same Vauxhall Nova, it had a 2 litre XE red top with C&B cams, side draught carbs, worked internals, and nitrous. Apparently 185 without the nitrous, I drove that and it was a very nice and usable power delivery, smoked the tyres from idle, revved to 9000 pulling hard all the way. Made a mockery of modern turbo'd small and medium 'sporty' cars, probably it only weighted 850kg's? It gave the same shove in the back as the turbo'd 5GTT, but anywhere and any time with no lag, and one didn't have mollycoddle a turbo.

So, that just reinforced that the turboed 1.4 is about tax breaks and should be about efficiency, but I never got more than 28 around town, and 19mpg latterly, so not efficient in those terms, but yes to power per CC. No to achieving both around town lag free brisk delivery and flexibility, and also open road big power, one or the other. Using a VNT helped a lot if it could be made work well.



Sorry if I wrote too much there. Went in to reminiscence mode!

[Ian S]

I'd argue you'll struggle more with lack of grip and torque steer with a smaller turbo/quick spooling set up.Agreed :)

Mike Spenser turned up here one night with a new turbo to play with, smaller than his big one off the record breaking setup.

It was a lot of mad fun, what 5's are probably supposed to be about, as it snapped the wheels into spinning at about 5000rpm in 1st to 3rd, maybe 4th, but had nothing beyond that. Slower overall than the easy going big turbo that kept the engine pulling up to 7500 or whatever, but without that sudden peak and squeak.

[Chesney84]

Thanks for taking the time to reply with all the info and advice guys. The reason why I joined this forum in the first place was for this very reason; to garner knowledge from those that have already been there and done it. I'll have a think and talk it over with Steve in the coming weeks and show him this thread and see what he thinks.

What you are saying is true - this is an engineering exercise, putting lots of different techniques and ideas into one engine, not because it needs it, but because we can - and it won't hurt, only help or improve (maybe not in power, but efficiency, reliability etc.) Yes dropping I larger lump in would yield more power, and would ultimately be easier, but it really doesn't interest me. I'm not in it for the cost either (fuel economy, road tax) and dropping in a bigger lump would be a cheaper and less complicated way of going about it but I want to keep the C1J block and have a play and see what I can do with it.

Thanks once again guys, all the replies are very much appreciated :)

[Ian S]

Jim said one thing the block needed was ladder bracing for the crank.

Which I've seen in the Fiat engines, Punto, etc., not sure if my Cinquecento 1108cc Fire engine has it, but the 1.4 litre T jet's do.

Seems that there's too much flexing with the C1J block and the cranks can bend, the blocks can crack. Jim had them where he'd taken off the crank bearings and the crank sort of sprang out and wouldn't turn and he got that C1J block line bored so it could be re-used.

Apparently some of the 1.7 litre and 2 litre use the same C1J block, or similar. The 5GTX and Monaco, and some early Megane. And maybe the Williams 2 litre used the 1.7 litre block.

He did a nice turbo conversion to one of those 1.7 litres. It was 16 valves, bespoke cams.

[Matt Cole]

What hasn't been mentioned is increasing the CC'S. I think Robbie has just done this. Made a big difference to spool.

[Ian S]

With a taller crank and shorter rods?

[Chesney84]

I am considering going to 77mm bore to increase the CC a little, should take it to 1434.2cc, not a massive leap but should make some difference.

[Ian S]

Cracked liners were so common you'd need to ensure the liners you use are strong enough to survive being even thinner at the sides.

I don't' know, or recall, how Renault did it with the 1.7 in the 5 GTX and Monaco.

[francob80]

Westwood Liners make ductile liners up to 80mm, if you gave them a call I imagine they could help. Around £450 per set.

[francob80]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-5-GT-Turbo-DUCTILE-Cylinder-Liners-NEW/372205414100?fits=Car+Make%3ARenault&hash=item56a92be6d4:g:dggAAOxyxSNRnOLh

[Matty]

You can get the long stroke crank kits for around 1K. They bring it to 1600cc same as the maxi turbo.

I was going to go down this route, but just had my crank reground and bought new rods, so didn't bother. But it would certainly make it nice and torquey!

[Ian S]

With the 80mm liners and long stroke, that would make it about 1.7 litres or so.

Would give the off boost area more drive-ability.

Would the longer stroke limit the revs in a significant way?

[Matt Cole]

So what about pistons with the 80mm liners? Where could they be sourced? Also the crank?

[Chesney84]

So been a week or so since the last update, couple of bits of progress but nothing major to report as of yet, order a few bits from the Club Shop (thanks Dale!), and a few bits from CGB and GTTS's. Nothing exciting really, just bits and bobs that I'll need during the build.
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[Chesney84]

I also cleaned up some of the brackets and ancillaries I got on the engine when I bought it, these were soaked in Frosts Rust Remover then media blasted. They'll be getting Zinc plated soon!
32064

[Chesney84]

I had also purchased a used Inlet manifold of eBay (I'm an eBay whore always on the lookout for a bargain). This is planned to be ported and tidied up in due course but whilst I'm waiting it has been hot pressure cleaned, dipped in rust remover to clear the water jacket out and then media blasted, will be painted once all the porting work is complete.

Before:
32065 32066

After:
32067 32068

[Chesney84]

Next I was trying to source a Renault 21 Turbo lobster, which Turbo Ted (Rob) said he had and was willing to sell to me :). The plan is to replace the normal carb lobster with this. The reason I wanted a R21 Turbo elbow is that I will be adding a Water-Meth injector and this needs to be before the carb. Looking at various places to locate or position the injector I wasn't happy with where I had space available. I stumbled across a picture of one these lobsters mounted to a fuel injected C1J inlet manifold and saw it had a spare port inline with the direction of flow. This will work perfectly as the mist will mix perfectly with the charge air, then be added to the fuel mixture as it passes through the carb.
32069
If (IF!:laugh:) I've schemed this up in my head correctly I aim to, utilise the spare port on front of the lobster for the injector, run the cup mod so will no longer need the two ports on the side of the original lobster, utilise the threaded hole at the rear of the unit for an inlet temp sensor and machine a fitting for the other take off the lobster at the rear.
32070
I am under no illusion that this will be a two-minute-job, the intercooler pipework will need a reducer to allow it to meet up with the inlet of the lobster (however I'll be fitting a front mount so will be sorting this anyway) and the injector and feed off the back will require a boss's making up. Not only that but the lobster will require an adaptor plate to allow it to fit the carb. This will serve a dual purpose, it will be funnel shaped inside to take into account the difference in diameter between the lobster and carb, and also allow me to rotate the lobster to line up with the intercooler pipework better. I'm planning that this will bolt to the carb, then bolt the lobster to the adaptor. I'll be buying a carb soon to start the mock up process and sketch something up, then once thats done one of the lads in the DO will CAD it up and I'll get it machined when things quieten down at work.

[Chesney84]

Last post for this evening now. Since the block came back I've been busy tidying it up, removing the flash from the casting and smoothing it out without removing too much material. The idea being that a rounded smoother profile is stronger and more reliable than sharper edges where cracks can begin to propagate. Not only this but it will aid water and oil flow and hopefully assist with oil drain back down to the sump. Heres some before and after shots:
32071 32072
And more...
32073 32074
And yet more...
32075 32076
And finally...
32077 32078
I am waiting for a cheap head gasket to arrive which I will be using as a template to open up the two water journals as these are very poorly finished and undoubtedly hindering the flow of coolant as they clearly don't line up with the head as there are witness marks from where the head gasket had been sitting.

[Chesney84]

The last component I have purchased is a standard T2 Turbo, this unit is fairly ropey with some play and a cracked exhaust housing but will only be used as a donor so not overly concerned and I didn't give much for it either. The current plan is a bespoke build, one of Steve's engine builder friends has a great deal of experience with Turbo's and used to in the day have a few 5's of his own in various states of tune. Exact specification is yet to be finalised but planning on doing the usual:

Larger billet turbine wheel (lightly clipped)
360 degree bearing
Larger billet compressor wheel
Modified compressor backplate and machined cover

I know having done some research and from others experience and comments that there is a relatively low ceiling in maximum achievable power (read boost) that this unit will produce, even with the modifications/ improvements I will be making. However, we are confident that with the work we are doing that this will be suitable for my requirements. Yes it would be cheaper to buy a larger turbo that would achieve the same and potentially more, however I want to stick with the T2 unit for the quick spool up and also for originaility.

32079 32080

32081 32082

I know at the minute this build thread looks like it is going nowhere fast, but I'm just slowly building a stock pile of parts, and organising things a planning it out. I'd love to have a massive pot of cash to just go out and buy everything and pay for all the services all at once. But this is a project and I'm in no rush to complete it, not only that but the more I read the more my plans evolve and change. I was planning to keep this as true to the original layout and design as I could, but already the direction has changed - going to be doing away with the AEI unit and go for a far more flexible and tuneable electronic ignition system (No-Diz is currently the favourite) to help realise the most out of the modifications I am making.

[Ian S]

They'll be getting Zinc plated soon!I made that mistake, the zinc corroded almost immediately. The chrome was still chrome. Unless you know of / can get much better zinc plating?

Each to their own, I know :) but my C1J:

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=22232&d=1225549516

I never did get that oil return done:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=22231&d=1225549516

Used a burnishing brush from Frost's:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=22236&d=1225549717

I will be adding a Water-Meth injector mist will mix perfectly with the charge air, then be added to the fuel mixture as it passes through the carb.Experience of many 5GTT owners says different. It was better to mount the injector far away from the carb top or it didn't mix. Outlet of intercooler was favourite. That where I had mine, by then that the norm.

And, IIRC, a 0.4mm was the size, or was too big. Seem to have forgotten. But people got less power if they it wrong. Seem to recall that it needs vapour going in, not droplets.

Scoff used it, Aquamist, same as me, and he has his own rolling road and found that there was no benefit to a correctly set up engine. He's up to 800bhp from a 1.8 litre Renault engine, or something, so I presume he knows what he talking about. :)

[Chesney84]

Experience of many 5GTT owners says different. It was better to mount the injector far away from the carb top or it didn't mix. Outlet of intercooler was favourite. That where I had mine, by then that the norm.

So do you think that even with this elbow this is still too close?

[Chesney84]

You can get the long stroke crank kits for around 1K. They bring it to 1600cc same as the maxi turbo.

I was going to go down this route, but just had my crank reground and bought new rods, so didn't bother. But it would certainly make it nice and torquey!

Found this last night:
32083
No price so assume it's not going to be cheap!

[Chesney84]

Jim said one thing the block needed was ladder bracing for the crank.

Which I've seen in the Fiat engines, Punto, etc., not sure if my Cinquecento 1108cc Fire engine has it, but the 1.4 litre T jet's do.

Seems that there's too much flexing with the C1J block and the cranks can bend, the blocks can crack. Jim had them where he'd taken off the crank bearings and the crank sort of sprang out and wouldn't turn and he got that C1J block line bored so it could be re-used.

Apparently some of the 1.7 litre and 2 litre use the same C1J block, or similar. The 5GTX and Monaco, and some early Megane. And maybe the Williams 2 litre used the 1.7 litre block.

He did a nice turbo conversion to one of those 1.7 litres. It was 16 valves, bespoke cams.

Found this for £150 Ian, full kit, sure you've probably seen it before though:
32084

[Mr Raider]

Looks a great clean 5 and nice project good work :agree::cool:

[Chesney84]

Looks a great clean 5 and nice project good work :agree::cool:

Thanks :)

[Ian S]

Found this for £150 Ian, full kit, sure you've probably seen it before thoughDon't think I have. There's some nice stuff around for the 5GTT these days.
Do you think it will help? Looks a little thin but probably than nothing. Maybe it's very good! No idea really!

At the bottom of the Punto 1.4 litre engine, I seem to recall that it was thick aluminium and may even have been including the main bearing caps. Memory of it is vague though.

Found this pic of something similar. Apparently it's a Toyota HZ 4.2 litre engine from 1990.

32085

Found this for Nissan: Engine cradles: http://www.platinumracingproducts.com/engine-cradles/

[Ian S]

So do you think that even with this elbow this is still too close?That's what people were saying at the time. The obvious first place to put the injector was the alu carb top, where the two spare take-offs were. Seems to recall people talking about misfiring. And less power on the rollers when the water was turned on. They found it needed less water and to be further away to atomise better.

With mine we drilled a hole in the intercooler side, that seemed to work OK until at Pod one day, with the engine running, I purged the plain water in the pipe so as to get the methanol aqueous solution all the way up to the nozzle. Instead of going with the passing air at idle, it pooled in top of the intercooler and the car wouldn't then run third gear up the strip, just sputtered all the way a few times until I gave up. There was oil and water all over the engine via the dump valve. No-one guessed what was wrong. It cleared on the M1 on the way home then ran well again.

Lesson; it really doesn't take much water to mess things up.

[Ian S]

Found this last nightA nice sly conversion. Who would know it's not still a 1.4. But so much faster from the traffic lights than all our pals.

Well not all our pals now as most of us are the only person we know who owns one!

[tubbyG]

Found this for £150 Ian, full kit, sure you've probably seen it before though:
32084

I have seen this site before, Ruanova offer some good looking products, I would be keen to see some first hand

[francob80]

Water injection, completely overkill for what you are trying to achieve especially with the tiny turbo you are going to use. Just spend your money on a decent efficient Intercooler, preferably front mount not side mount.

[Ian S]

Yeah, the output temp from my standard position Pace intercooler was about 89°C. I had to get the temp below 40°C before starting an overtake or it would pink a bit.

IIRC, the Forge universal front mount intercooler output temp, on a 5GTT lapping castle combe, using one of my dual thermocouple gauges, was about 40°C, and the input from the turbo was 125°C. So even though that forge was poorly made, was dropping 85°C.

Yet I seem to recall that some people had seen a turbo output temp of 250°C which was the limit of my probes designs PTFE sheath.

[turbo ted]

So what about pistons with the 80mm liners? Where could they be sourced? Also the crank?

I've got long stroke crank and 80mm Pistons in my c1j extra van the engine was original built by Glenn at dyno tec back in the good old days, but since fitting engine in the van I'm having nothing but trouble with the headgasket there was a copper headgasket on engine first which worked for a while and it was badly made too. As there's no headgasket available to buy for 80mm I had one made from stainless steel which consist of 4 thin gaskets sandwiched together basically it's a copy of the MLS gasket now this has been working great until the other day it's let go again, not had time to see what's gone this time but I reckon because of the 80mm bore the liners are only 4mm thickness so there's only that much surface area for the gasket to seal
So my advice would be leave Pistons to standard at 76mm
Regards rob

[Chesney84]

I made that mistake, the zinc corroded almost immediately. The chrome was still chrome. Unless you know of / can get much better zinc plating?

Each to their own, I know :) but my C1J:

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=22232&d=1225549516

I never did get that oil return done:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=22231&d=1225549516

Used a burnishing brush from Frost's:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=22236&d=1225549717


I'll have a chat with the plating company and see what they say/ suggest. I only plan to use the car for limited mileage in the summer months mainly and it is kept under a cover in the garage when not in use, so hopefully a freshly plated bracket will not rust excessively in these circumstances. If they do the chassis is more of a concern! :laugh:

Nice looking block and engine - although thats a little too much chrome for me ;) , thats way too much autosol for me!

[turbo ted]

Found this last night:
32083
No price so assume it's not going to be cheap!

Is there a head gasket for the kit

[Chesney84]

Water injection, completely overkill for what you are trying to achieve especially with the tiny turbo you are going to use. Just spend your money on a decent efficient Intercooler, preferably front mount not side mount.

I know its over the top but fancy putting it on and as long as it is used and set-up correctly it can only help instead of hinder. Will be definitely be going down the FMIC route.

[Chesney84]

Found this for Nissan: Engine cradles: http://www.platinumracingproducts.com/engine-cradles/


Now these :love:, seems almost a shame not to be able to see them once its all assembled!

[Chesney84]

Is there a head gasket for the kit

Its not part of the kit they sell, they are an agent of Cometic though and theres a link on their site find the size of your choice...

[Chesney84]

I've got long stroke crank and 80mm Pistons in my c1j extra van the engine was original built by Glenn at dyno tec back in the good old days, but since fitting engine in the van I'm having nothing but trouble with the headgasket there was a copper headgasket on engine first which worked for a while and it was badly made too. As there's no headgasket available to buy for 80mm I had one made from stainless steel which consist of 4 thin gaskets sandwiched together basically it's a copy of the MLS gasket now this has been working great until the other day it's let go again, not had time to see what's gone this time but I reckon because of the 80mm bore the liners are only 4mm thickness so there's only that much surface area for the gasket to seal
So my advice would be leave Pistons to standard at 76mm
Regards rob

I think I'll only push it to 77mm tops, you can get good quality MLS head gaskets for 77mm bore (even seen some with a steel fire ring), that combined with switching to studs and the additional ring dowel between the block and head should ensure a good clamp and positive location between the two!

[Ian S]

it's let go again, not had time to see what's gone this time but I reckon because of the 80mm bore the liners are only 4mm thickness so there's only that much surface area for the gasket to sealHas the block and pistons been skimmed flat? If they are the normal wide variation in height, would that not the cause with a hard gasket not really seating on the whole lot, just here and there?

[Matt Cole]

I'm wondering if wire ringing the liners would help with the 80mm bores?

[Chesney84]

May have had a bit of a result today. Sorting out the store room upstairs at work I came across 4 split rim barrels. I'd seen them a couple of times before but never gave them a second thought, but today I had to move them so decided to have a quick gander. The first thing that struck me about them was the weight, I know they are missing the centre's but I could not believe how light they were. It turns out upon looking at the stickers they are actually quite a rare set of SSR Speedstar MK2R's (old school lightweight Japanese split rims). I spoke to my colleague Matt, the owner of them, and he said he no longer had any use for them as he had sold the car some time ago. He said he has the centre's at home and will bring them. Long story short, they are mine if I want them. They do require some TLC but heres what they look like (for those unfamiliar with them):

32087

I know these won't be to everyones taste, and even I had my doubts at first, until I saw these:

32088
32089
32090

Been playing around on photoshop with red on black (red centres with black bolts, nuts and barrels) and got to say they look pretty cool and proper old school 90's :cool:!

My question is they are 6x14 inch, with a PCD of 4x100 and an offset of 38, does anyone see any reason why these wouldn't fit?

[Chesney84]

This is what I have in mind:

32091

Or potentially black centre with the barrel and bolts painted in red, both variations can be with a highly polished chrome edged rim.

[Ian S]

Is the centre hole the correct size?

Shame you can't fit them inside out, with all that chrome showing :)

The problem might be lack of traction with only a 6 inch wheel.

Might be OK with some very grippy tires. I had some Yoko A032r for a while on the original 5J5 rims and they didn't wheel spin at all. Well only at the start line at the pod where I smoked them for a while in 2nd gear until they dragged the car with handbrake on, then I know they were ready :)

Discontinued now: http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Yokohama/Advan-A032R.htm

[Chesney84]

Going to have a measure up for that today, if not I’ll turn up a ally spigot ring at work and press it in. I was thinking of fitting some Nankang NS2R tyres as they seem to have mega reviews everywhere I’ve read - apart from wet grip (which I won’t be using this car in the wet let alone driving it hard), road noise and economy. Dry grip is supposed to be mega though! Can’t quite justify the AS1’s for a car that only gets used for a handful of days a year in fair weather.

[Chesney84]

I can’t make any guarantees but I’m going to try and get them rebuilt and fitted for the Pod show! While I’m on that note, I was hoping to lower it on a set of coil overs (and lower the torsion bars). Anyone got any advice on potential pitfalls with regard to low rtide heights. Is there any fear of popping out driveshafts on these 5’s if I go too low? Is there enough scope for camber adjustment?

[Ian S]

I found lowered cars to have too little suspension travel to absorb larger bumps and speed. The rear wheels hit the bump stops and punt the car up in the air and give the driver and passenger a moments real pain in the back.

If you're happy to drive 20 to 40 mph slower on lanes, then 'slammed' does keep the car more upright on roundabouts, if they're not too bumpy.

I added some tarmac rally version (probably no longer available) Bilstein rear shocks, which were a lot firmer, but would yield over larger bumps, the opposite behaviour to the plethora of not very good shock absorbers that people use.

I kept my rear ride height, in fact the Bilsteins raised it a few mm as they expand with so much force, my body weight couldn't push the rod in, lowering it a bit would been better as there was too little downward wheel movement left, so I'd would only have been lower it back to standard or just a bit less. To begin with anyway. If lowering these cars was easier I'd have tried different ride heights to find out how that affected the chassis balance.

At the front, I fitted 250 lb / inch springs, that largely sorted the front roll and maintained the contact patch much better. Had those on Koni Yellows.

Basically I was too poor to afford very good quality height adjustable front suspension, but that would have been better that having to buy different pairs of normal, but harder, spring to adjust the height.

And I could have then adjusted the bump and rebound settings appropriately, instead of the Konis not being quite right.

Some 'coil over' kits does seem have the top bearing assembly. I not sure what people do to correct that.

I've not heard of drive shafts coming out.

But you make a mess of the suspension geometry and lose contact patch on the straights and the corners. Bespoke drop links are the way to restore the wishbone angle to something that works.

The harder the springs, the less the car rolls, so the less the geometry changes.

There are some fancy sliding top mounts that allow some camber changes. Other than that people would fettle the shock absorber bottom bolt hole into a slot so it can tilt a bit.

[Chesney84]

Mega, thanks for the advice Ian. :)

[Chesney84]

So work was quiet today so spent some time on the wheels, when I say wheels I mean the bolts. I was just going to toss these away and fit new, until I started doing some research. Apparently a lot of early 90's JDM split rim used M6 bolts, where a lot of other brands were using M7 or M8. Nowadays M7 and M8 are the norm, but finding M6 bolts for split rims is nigh on impossible. Obviously you can find stainless bolts of all lengths and sizes, but trying to find M6 in 10.9 grade at the exact length I needed and be polished stainless was proving hard. So they went into the ultrasonic cleaner, then out came the trusty Frosts rust remover solution (to remove the crud off the bolts where the nuts had sat). Then painstakingly I sat with a wire brush and brought each one to life. I also ran a nut up and down the bolt to clean the threads. Luckily for me theres only 80 of them!!! :eek:

32093

Really happy with how they have come out though, the heads look as good as new, haven't made my mind up yet if I'm going to leave them in stainless finish or make them black as I have ordered some black oxide solution to finish them with. I also ordered some stainless serrated flange nuts as the original nuts were shagged.

32094

So here are the rim centres, I'm planning on doing these red, will try and match the red from the vinyl sticker on the rear quarters to try and tie them in. I'm going to see if I can get the raised profiles on the centres machined and then detailed in black paint to pull them out.
32095

I really wasn't sure on them at first but they've really grown on me. In all honesty they are going to cost me a small fortune when I add up all the parts needed and painting, polishing, rebuilding etc. but I have a vision in my head of how I they will look once I'm done, and ultimately there won't be another 5 with these rims on like this (which may be a good or bad thing) :laugh:

The centres are really light - apparently they are spun cast and you can clearly see have hollow spokes!

32096

Then here's the rims, they are in a pretty sorry state, I did consider keeping them bare ally and polishing them, but they are quite pitted and have some stone rash and gouges, so these will be getting painted black. These are, so I'm led to believe two pieces, then welded together during manufacture. The very outer lip of the rim I'm planning on having polished to a chrome finish.

32097

I'm sure these rims will divide opinion when they are complete/ fitted, but I think that tucked up inside the arches, with the car heavily lowered should turn a few heads!

[Chesney84]

Ultimately a cross between this...
32098
...and this:
32099

[Chesney84]

So I offered up the wheels tonight, the fronts went straight on but the rears will require a spacer as they don't quite clear the callipers unfortunately.
32100
Spigot rings have been ordered as these were available off the eBay shelf in the size combination required to fit both the wheel and hub.
32101
Having seen the wheel centre fitted on the car I have now had a "wobble" on colour choice/ combination, thinking that perhaps I should stick with black but have a red outer rim with polished lip :scratch:
32102
As soon as I decide I'll get them dropped off for refurb and paint. Was toying back and forth with tyre choice, thinking perhaps Nankangs, but I've decided to go with a 195/45 R14 Toyo T1R. Having used these tyres before I've always thought they were pretty good really - certainly for the price! Also they are one of the only 14inch tyres I've seen that offers such a low profile. Hopefully should look quite nice on the new rims and keep the ride height nice and low, although I know removing some of the sidewall height takes away some of the compliance and damping and will give a much harsher ride.

[Matt Cole]

I actually like them! Black definitely. :agree:

[Chesney84]

I think I've decided on colour choice now. It was a bit quiet at work today so I grabbed a some spray paint and had a bit of a play about. These are just rattle-can'd so the finish isn't the best but give me a proper idea of what the finished wheels will look like. So here's the red on black:

32104
32105

Having now done this I'm now convinced that black on red in the way forward. The red band and chrome lip will help the edge of the rim contrast to to the tyre making the wheels look bigger than the alternative combination which I feel would blend in at a glance making the rim look smaller. Not only that but I couldn't help but feel the all red wheel looked a bit "cheap and tacky"

32106
32107

When finished the centre will sit slightly deeper into the rim as at the minute the powder coating is way too thick to allow them to be fully assembled - meaning you will be able to see more of the red.:cool2:

[Chesney84]

Been a while since I've posted on here and updated progress on the build - unfortunately I've got a few personal problems at the minute meaning my focus (and funds) have been diverted temporarily. Anyway, enough licking of my wounds, here's what I have been up to over the past couple of months.

So I've finished the work on the block, I bought a cheap generic C1J head gasket purely as a template for the waterways in the top of the block. With this now done I'm happy that the block is ready to build. All the burr's and casting flash has been removed and smoothed off, meaning oil return to the sump and water flow through the block should be as good as it can:
32196

Before shots of the water-ways:
32197 32198

And after:
32199 32200

[Chesney84]

Also bought a soft pedal conversion arm from eBay, think I'll be going with the Green Box Valeo Clutch when I get that far along (is this the same one that is sold on the CGB website do you know?)
32201

Also stripped and painted the engine mount and stabiliser bar with some black VHT wrinkle paint:
32202 32203

[Chesney84]

Also bought a used but mint Forge twin core intercooler. The only issue is that it had a slight leak from around both lower locating posts. These were welded then I re-pressure tested it and straightened out a few fins on the core. Held pressure so gave it a good autosol. This will eventually, when fitted, have proper ducting/ cold air feed to it, and possibly a fan fitted behind it.
32204

Have decided I'm going to make hard aluminium boost pipes from the turbo to the intercooler and from the intercooler to the carb top. These will be fitted at all four junctions with wiggins sleeves and clamps on o-rings. I'm going to rotate the elbow to make the run from the intercooler to the carb as short as possible to minimise heat soak on the pipe. My thinking being that the shorter and hard boost pipes make the boost crisper by taking away the damping effect the silicone boost hoses add when they pant and expand on boost.
32205 32206

Will be getting some ends turned up and order some aluminium tube to start mocking and scheming it up.

[Chesney84]

Also ordered a trigger wheel, bracket and sensor from EFI parts for the No-Diz conversion, already have a 3-Bar Map sensor, water temp sensor and intake temp sensor. Just slowly building up my parts.
32207

Also bought off a chap called Chris from the Facebook page a Prima Racing bottom pulley. Iwill need to scheme up a way to allow the tigger wheel, the pulley and the cast hub to all locate on each other to prevent them rotating and unclocking over time. Will need to turn up some spacers as well to space out of the bracket and sensor as the Prima pulley is slightly thicker than the original pulley meaning the trigger wheel will be out of alignment with the sensor.
32208

I have also fitted a Forge boost controller to the "5" and wound up the boost a little and checked with an AFR meter. Still running rich throughout the rev-range at 14 psi. Give me enough of an increase to keep me entertained whilst I'm waiting to build this engine. Also bought another TDC sensor to fit to the 5. Steve made an interim loom, meaning that when this is fitted it switches the wires around. This means I can fit it/ remove it as and when I please to increase, decrease ignition advance. Will try and get round to fitting it this weekend.
32209

[Chesney84]

And finally, for now at least, I bought myself a Carburetor so I can start mocking up my R21 Turbo elbow:
32210

Work required on this is an adaptor plate which will be drawn up this coming week, this will bolt to the carb which in turn the elbow to bolt to. This will rotate the elbow through 90 degrees towards the LHS of the car, with a short alloy boost hose from the Forge intercooler. I will try to incorporate a funnel/ venturi shape to encourage airflow through the carb. The carb will have the choke flap removed with the flat section the flap used to locate against machined out. Also between the base of the carb and the inlet manifold I will be machining up a insulating Phenolic plate. This will aid in reducing heat transfer between the inlet manifold and carb to help (albeit it in a small way) keep the fuel in the carb a little cooler by reducing some of the heat conduction between the two.
32211

I will be having a boss machined and then fitted to the spare port in the elbow for the water-meth injector. The two spare ports on the reverse of the elbow will be utilised for an intake temp sensor and the usual take off from the RHS of the carb top.
32212

[michael tierney]

did you check for bonnet clearance.....there isnt much!

[Chesney84]

Will bring some plasticine home from work tomorrow and check the height with the bonnet closed on the forge lobster I have fitted by comparison to this. It will be ‘effin close, but looking at the two there didn’t seem to be much between them in total height! If needs be I’ll drop the insulating plate between the carb and manifold!

[Chesney84]

Hey up!

So its been a while since I last posted on here. Life got in the way of progress on the 5 somewhat last year, I got divorced and found myself in a position where I needed to prioritise my expenditure - not least to cover solicitors bills but also to remortgage the property. However, 2019 is so far looking more positive, everything is now pretty much resolved and amicable, and best of all I managed to keep hold of the 5!:yeah:

It was good to meet so many of the members at Santa Pod last year, put some faces to the names/avatars on here and get advice and chat shit whilst getting more and more inebriated! :D

Many will have read my posts in this thread and noticed I was forever changing my mind on the spec of my engine build, going back and forth with different states of tune etc. I was toying with the idea originally of keeping both the carb and Renix unit but lightly upgrading the rest of the engine and T2 turbo, then I decided to go for electronic ignition, T25 turbo and but still staying with the carb.

However, I have now decided to go balls deep and fully commit to a serious engine build to produce serious power. The spec below is what I’m working to, but these are just the big ticket items that are key to this build. Most components under the bonnet will be rebuilt or replaced throughout the build and it is likely it will be another year from now before its completed due to funding etc. I’d like to think by Summer 2020 this is the engine will be in my 5.

Anyway, final specification of my build:

Original C1J block and cylinder head
77mm Wossner Pistons - New capacity 1.434cc
Westwood Ductile Liners 77mm bore
Raised compression ratio to 8:1
Garrett GT2256 Turbo
Custom manifold and down pipe to suit turbo
Fuel injection manifold courtesy of Michael Tierney
Adaptronic ECU
Piper 285 camshaft reprofile
AEM water methanol injection
PWR barrel water to air charge cooler kit

Feel free to pick holes, make suggestions, offer advice and troll as you so wish... :niceone:

Oh and my GT22 turbo is being delivered tomorrow so will endeavour to post some photos of it uploaded asap!

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[Chesney84]

So today I took delivery of another part of my engine build jigsaw- my Garrett GT22 turbo. The spec of the turbo is as follows:

0.37A/R turbine housing
42mm exducer ~ 25% larger than the stock T2
Internal wastegated T3 flange

0.61A/R Compressor housing
40mm inducer ~ 15% larger than the stock T2
80mm ported anti-surge inlet

Should be good for the power levels I'm aiming for with some in reserve and is capable of over 2 bar of boost.

Left to right below is GT22, T25 and T2 in order to get a sense of scale:
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Next photo is of the T25 compressor housing placed onto the GT22:
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And finally direct comparison of GT22 and T2 side by side:
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[Chesney84]

Some close up photos from when I got home tonight :love:

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Really looking forward to start picking up and moving this build forward now that things have settled down a bit!

:D

[Matt Cole]

Excellent this is! Really interested in the CC increase to see what difference it makes overall. :agree:

[Chesney84]

Unfortunately I don't think I'll ever know what the impact going 1mm larger in bore will have in terms of the overall performance because the rest of the engine spec will be radically different. However, even if its negligible any increase in capacity can only help towards power - like the old saying "theres no replacement for displacement!"

[Chesney84]

So whilst I was on my spending sabbatical I thought I'd make a start on some of the stuff that needed to be done but wouldn't cost me much - starting off with mocking up a baffled sump kit.
I know these are readily available quite cheaply but I have access to sheet metal, welders, flypress' and guillotines so thought I'd give it a go myself. Here it is at mock up stage:

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This is the kit fully cut, just need to get the slots machined in for the rubber baffles then I can fold and tack it together and make some tabs with captive nuts to bolt it into the sump.

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Aiming to get this finished soon!

[Chesney84]

As I decided I was going electronic injection quite some time ago, before I got to the specification I've finally settled on I decided to do away with the distributor, but need to keep the lower part of the housing to locate on the top of the oil pump drive. I'm not a big fan of gaskets when you can use an o-ring instead, so after some measuring of both the bore inside the block and comparing it to our stock of o-rings in stores I found one that was a perfect match, the shaft requires a groove yet but will then have a retaining snap ring fitted and an ally cover to seal the top.

Before:
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Now:
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(I should also add that the remaining shaft protruding from the dizzy still needs shortening down some more)

[Chesney84]

As I'm sticking with the standard flywheel still, I decided to reface it by putting it on the surface grinder and trued up the face and give it a decent finish. Again, as I have no need for the trigger wheel due to ditching the AEI unit with this engine I machined the teeth off to save some weight. I'm planning on taking some weight out of the back of the flywheel with some further machining work but just haven't got round to it yet!

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And finally (for tonight at least) I colour coded some of the brackets and ancillaries for the engine with some more red and black VHT wrinkle paint:

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I have a few more updates on progress made on the engine build and in general on the 5 but that will have to do for today!

[Chesney84]

So, tonights update: The company I work for has close dealings with Australian cooling specialists PWR, who if you are unfamiliar with them, manufacture cores as well as finished radiators, intercoolers and charge coolers. The quality of their work is fantastic and the cores they make are among some of the very best in the world. Using our contacts we have with them I began directly discussing the options they have available and what my requirements and expectations are.

After these discussions I was steered towards one of their chargecoolers kits. They very kindly sent me over the heat rejection and pressure drop data along with a whole heap of other graphs, plots and tables from wind tunnel tests of the various size charge coolers at a range of ambient conditions, boost levels and inlet charge temps. Long story short, the numbers are impressive. Now I'm not going to bullshit you, I don't fully understand it all 100%, I have general grasp of the fundamentals but thats about it. Fortunately for me though our cooling engineer does this sort of analysis everyday and was happy to look into it and run the numbers for me. At this point its hard to put an exact figure on charge temps without running complex simulations, however he has reassured me that chargecooler over intercooler is a viable option and also potentially an improvement in certain conditions.

Heres the kit in question that I'm currently leaning towards:

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You get the radiator, fan, water pump, small header tank and charge cooler barrel and some other fittings etc.

The main drawbacks for the charge cooler system are:
* The minimum inlet charge temp achievable is never going to be as low as an Air to Air intercooler
* Additional systems required (electric pump and fan, plumbing in a separate radiator) with increased chances of things to go wrong
* Weight is likely to be as much if not more than a large front mount I/C

Where a charge cooler benefits over an I/C:
* A much smaller volume of the C/C and shorter pipework runs reduces any possible issues with lag
* For an equivalent surface area as the C/C you'd need a much larger intercooler
* Although inlet charge temp will never be as cool as an I/C can achieve the peak temp will be much lower
* The thermal mass of water means that as a rule of thumb it conducts heat not only about 25 times more effectively but also 25 times faster than air (apparently)
* Also due to the heat capacity of water even if the charge temp goes up massively (for example after WOT) the water temp change is minimal (literally single digits)
* The above is also true for after being sat in traffic or stationary - heat soak into the C/C will be much less than an I/C

Basically from what I can understand you effectively have a much narrower operating window of inlet charge than you would with an intercooler. This I feel will be a benefit as the inlet charge temp I map the car at will not deviate anywhere near as wildly as it would with an I/C. Seeing as my car gets used for 6 months of year from end of Spring to early Autumn (even though our summers aren't reliably hot) I'm likely to spend more time driving my car in warmer conditions than cold.

Obviously all of the above benefits and improvements I'm championing are all dependant on spec'ing everything right first time - correct size core, correct size radiator, air flow to and after the radiator, pipework runs etc. I'm sure someone will be along soon to counter these with their own opinions and suggestions. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of I/C's and know that they can be equally if not more effective than C/C's if certain conditions are met. Half the F1 grid either run one or the other showing that there isn't a hard and fast rule of which is best. PWR even suggested that they can provide me with seriously effective I/C cooler core but that it may not be suitable both in terms of packaging (size available to me) and also at price point - an average core supplied to an F1 team is in excess of 5 figures for one - thats just for the core - no tanks - no pipework, just a box with some core in for you to manufacture it yourself!

Anyway heres tonights job of mocking-up the installation of the charge cooler and radiator:

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The cardboard tube is the same OD and length of the barrel I have been recommended to use by them, the donkey dick (ducting) is very close to the inlet and outlet diameter of the barrel. At least I know with a bit of relocation of a couple of items I can get the barrel I require inside the engine bay. The radiator is a struggle as I want to retain the standard water rad position.They suggest a 10x10" radiator but after using a cardboard box I'm going to ask if they can manufacture a 9x11" rad instead, that way I can use the standard I/C bottom mount.

More to follow...