View Full Version : Speed season 2016
RussellT
24-04-2016, 10:01
This isn't going to be a long thread.
Over the winter I had upgraded her clutch to a competition one and fitted the Clio longer release arm (what a joy that is) then just before the first event Doris wouldn't idle all of a sudden on the short drive home from work. Carb in bits and cleaned out nothing found. I was looking for an air leak and put my finger over the mixture screw tube and she ran fine. Ah out came the sealant. Started her again and still won't idle, went back to look and the sealant had gone! No mixture screw! Luckily I had a spare.
First event at 3 Sisters a very competitive field with Harewood instructor James Kerr and Keith Minshull. I tried my best including rescuing a full sideways moment up the hill to the flying finish with a tank lapper across the line that took out the finish board leaving Doris with a sizeable wood splinter in her side skirt, but could only manage a 3rd on 53.10 Keith took the win 52.66 just ahead of James on 52.71.
For the next round at Aintree I had the rear dampers softened to the med setting. The engine had felt good at 3 Sisters so I was hopeful.
After practice (on practice boost) I was in the lead! The first time I had been ahead of James on a dry track in years. So I turned the boost up and went for it. Only Doris dint appreciate it and misfired all the way around. 2nd time run with boot lower she ran fine but lost power and set a slow time. On the slow down tthe oil smoke started to appear. It was coming from the breather hose and it looks like I've lost compression from one of the cylinders.
I managed to pootle home without bothering the AA for once. So it looks like game over for the year but an opportunity to come back with a better engine.
Matt Cole
24-04-2016, 10:29
Sounds like new engine time Russell. I guess the gruelling and punishing events eventually take toll on poor Doris!
What engine spec do you have in mind? Is efi now on the cards?
Hi Russell. I'll be gutted if this is the start and the end of your 2016 season! :cry:
Have a look-see, maybe it's not too bad?
RussellT
24-04-2016, 16:32
I tried a compression test on cylinder 1 & 2 and either my compression tester is broke or there is no compression. She will still run and she has oil and water.
This engine was built by Ian Nixon late 2007 I have had 2 dropped valves, so its done pretty well.
It was built with forged rods and pistons but the pistons I bought on advice had the wrong compression height and Ive suffered from too low a compression as a result.
So the plan will be rather dependent on diagnosis but could include a new set of pistons and a beefier turbo.
EFI maybe a step too far. Ian Butcher competed with it at Aintree and no one said anything against it.
How very disappointing. It'll be good to get to the bottom of the issue, you never know it might not need much work to fix it. I suppose having the same engine since 2007, competing in sprint events AND using it daily on the road isn't too bad.
I tried a compression test on cylinder 1 & 2 and either my compression tester is broke or there is no compression. She will still run and she has oil and water.
This engine was built by Ian Nixon late 2007 I have had 2 dropped valves, so its done pretty well.Trying the gauge on 3 & 4 might answer that? Or on a known working car.
If it had no compression on 1 & 2 it would run VERY rough.
Given that it takes between 1 to 2 hours to get the engine out or do a swap, why should this fault stop you from competing in the next race?
Could you not take the head off and have a look at that? A couple of hours spannering and you'll know. Or pop it into someone, Scoff maybe?
RussellT
25-04-2016, 20:37
No compression on 1 and 4 and down on the other 2 also the head is cracked. http://www.rtoc.org/boards/webkit-fake-url://4cbd5049-879f-4902-b23d-d49981cd3da0/imagejpeg
RussellT
25-04-2016, 21:58
Just picked up the results and I came second. What a car running on 2 and a bit cylinders and I beat James to the split just lost out on the run around the last corner and down to the finish. Ian mega 5 was slightly faster, through the finish at 118 stopping the clock at 51.85!
Matt Cole
25-04-2016, 22:12
No compression on 1 and 4 and down on the other 2 also the head is cracked. http://www.rtoc.org/boards/webkit-fake-url://4cbd5049-879f-4902-b23d-d49981cd3da0/imagejpeg
Oh.:(
Good excuse for some new parts!;)
To be honest the crack in between valves is very common and most of the time doesn't cause any issues. I guess you've fried the piston rings? :crap:
As far as I can discern these days, that doesn't look too bad anywhere in those two photos. Fairly clean. White exhaust valve, some oil on one area of one piston.
Apart from that crack, as Alex says that may have little effect.
It might be some worn rings and glazed bores. Or the valves not sealing as well as new. Maybe leaking out of that / those cracks.
If the tappets are not correctly adjusted you'd get different compressions.
It does look a bit like the head gasket was nearing it's time, or the head bolts were not tight enough, as there appears to be discolouration spreading out towards the edges of that liner top. There tends to be a clean defined ring all the way around near the inner edge.
RussellT
28-04-2016, 13:59
The outer pistons are severely scored the inner ones are pristine.
30328
I wonder why that happend? Could it be that the piston rings have worn and created piston slap on the outer 2 pots? Why would only those 2 have worn out though? Maybe an issue with the gudeon pins having play?
Either way it's new engine time Russell :crap:
Don't they say that the outer two pots don't get the same fuel mix as the inner two and run a bit hotter as a result?
The water pump end also has the longest exhaust manifold pipe.
And we wondered if the water pump end doesn't cool as well because the water looks like it doesn't circulate so well around it.
Often it's just the water pump end piston that expands and scores. Sometimes after only one boost run.
RussellT
28-04-2016, 21:47
In my view my turbo could pressurise the air but wasn't big enough to move enough air at high revs and as Trev says the central inlet runners took the charge at the expense of the outer 2 leaving them hot. I am toying with the idea of blown bike ITB's . Anyone got any bright ideas?
Remember I want mid range torque rather than ultimate top end power.
RussellT
12-05-2016, 19:04
goodies on the way :cool:
Matt Cole
12-05-2016, 20:16
Project thread needed Russel! :D
Ooh! Yes, keep us informed :p
RussellT
16-05-2016, 21:44
3043630437New Wossners for Doris Cims6ntWgAEbyrs.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cims6ntWgAEbyrs.jpg)
Original pistons died because of quite clear detonation, Always the outers that run leaner slightly, that sort of damage doesn't just happen that quickly thats prolonged light detonation which your ears probably wont of heard
Best way to keep for such light detonation is by reading the spark plugs in detail after a run out, Little black dots in the insulator is sure sign of the onset of detonation
Are you using forged rods as well or modifying stock rods to suit floating pins?
RussellT
16-05-2016, 23:26
forged rods by Saenz
RussellT
17-05-2016, 08:43
I have a replacement head from Prima Racing, "breathed on" by Tony Hart and a new turbo on its way from Scoff. Ive ordered a inlet manifold from Bob at CGB to "play" with.
Im considering bike throttle bodies, there is an issue with the spacing of the ports but I have a "cunning plan" I discussed it with a professional motor sports engineer and he said it was daft, so highly likely to be duff, but it would look pretty!
watch this space.
C1J standard con rods are forged :)
In my R5, I could hear, or sense, even the mildest det'ing. Some of it was not mild, but after years of it, when I took the engine apart, no damage.
I never just sat there with the pedal down indefinitely while it did it.
I made an 'electronic stethoscope' det detector, it was very good, very revealing of all the little sounds going on in the engine and could reveal the slightest 'knock' before the louder metallic sound. But I was aware af that sound anyway. But some people who used it did hear a great deal more info than they were previously aware of and could tune their engine better so there was no knock.
Original pistons died because of quite clear detonation, Always the outers that run leaner slightly, that sort of damage doesn't just happen that quickly thats prolonged light detonation which your ears probably wont of heard
Best way to keep for such light detonation is by reading the spark plugs in detail after a run out, Little black dots in the insulator is sure sign of the onset of detonation
Are you using forged rods as well or modifying stock rods to suit floating pins?
The piston tops look o.k. to me - no real 'det marks that I can see? The outer 2 pistons have melted/failed ringlands, would this be from 'det? I would imagine the outer 2 have run leaner/hotter than the others and have melted the pistons. I guess this would have caused the detonation but I would have expected the tops of the pistons to look a mess, particularly with it being over a long period of time?
Yes ring lands areas are detonation marked and worn away, this then caused the top rings to wear quickly probably dropping compression slowly noticing more and more crankcase pressure and then eventually with det and friction caused the ring land and ring to become one hence the skirt damage
it's quite a text box failure, detonation isn't always massive holes and half a piston left
RussellT
17-05-2016, 22:06
3043430435
Looks well :agree: You'll need to do the same with the manifold gasket to get the proper effect.
RussellT
27-05-2016, 23:33
New pigs in blankets 30473
RussellT
02-06-2016, 21:01
The new turbo 30475
Matt Cole
02-06-2016, 21:26
Very nice Russel.;)
I guess your getting serious now!:D
You've got to love shiney new car parts! Whats been done to the head Russell? What spec is the turbo?
RussellT
03-06-2016, 11:16
A/R60 M24 its a bit bigger than what I had.
There is a picture of the new head on thread some serious port work and also work on the combustion chamber as well.
The latest plan is to put it all together with the carb get it run in then look at the throttle body option.
I was given a set of bike throttle bodies but they had dampers on them worked by manifold pressure so no good for a turbo engine.
RussellT
03-06-2016, 15:42
I have just found out that the Speed Committee of the MSA are looking to change the turbo equivalence factor from 1.4 to 1.7.
This would have the effect of putting me into the over 2L class with Subys and Mitsubishi Evos. Well I could play but wouldn't win.
:crap:
Matt Cole
03-06-2016, 18:57
That's a bit rough Russel!:crap:
RussellT
13-06-2016, 14:09
Here is a photo of the new turbo on the head with the old one next to it for comparison. 30493
Matt Cole
13-06-2016, 22:05
That should see them 2.0l cars off!:D
RussellT
10-08-2016, 17:46
Just bought one of these for phase 2 of the rebuild.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpgxUj6WYAARE_Y.jpg
CpgxUj6WYAARE_Y.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpgxUj6WYAARE_Y.jpg)
Im up to 300 miles and Doris has a date with Scoff in 10 days.
only 1 set :confused:
interested to see how this comes out and how it is mounted, feeding the cylinder with 1 injector for 2 cylinders would be interesting to see the results
RussellT
10-08-2016, 21:38
Because of the non cross flow head space is an issue I thought 1 TB feeding each pair of inlets was the way to go. I admit it's a pure guess but should help with air flow at low revs and at the moment 4 cylinders are fed one TB in the carb with a 32mm entrance to the inlet manifold. So she should breath easier.
RussellT
21-08-2016, 10:56
Doris survived the rollers power limited by how fast she was emptying the float chamber at 19.9 psi any guesses as to the final figures?
Nice work, great that people are still developing and trying new ideas for these little engines. :agree:
Does it have the mid range grunt you were looking to achieve ?
:smokin:
RussellT
21-08-2016, 22:18
She is still on the Solex the throttle body is phase 2.
francob80
22-08-2016, 10:04
What did it make on the rollers Russell?
At 20psi, I'll guess 192bhp and 215lbft. :agree:
With the headwork and massive blower I say....................
210bhp and 190lbft
RussellT
22-08-2016, 14:07
Any more guesses? One of the torque figures is close
RussellT
22-08-2016, 21:00
OK here it is
19.9 psi
216.9 Lb/ft
231 BHP
At that point Scoff reckons she was emptying the float chamber faster than it could fill and starting to lean out.
:)
francob80
22-08-2016, 21:18
Nice, what is the actual spec of your set up Russell ?
Matt Cole
22-08-2016, 22:11
OK here it is
19.9 psi
216.9 Lb/ft
231 BHP
At that point Scoff reckons she was emptying the float chamber faster than it could fill and starting to lean out.
:)
That's F in good power for a carb! I guess more fuel pressure and maybe a bored out fuel bowl or dare I say it......maybe an injector could yield more bhp.
RussellT
22-08-2016, 22:26
PowerRun.jpg (http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Doris%20Files/PowerRun.jpg)
Forged rods and pistons, lightened and balanced crank and flywheel, large turbo (sorry can't remember the code for it), Rejetted carb, Blitz boost controller, Unique hi flow intercooler, competition clutch. race head with big valves from Prima Racing. Adaptronic ECU wasted spark ignition,
Cam from Engine Dynamics.
Run on Shell V-Power Nitro pump fuel.
Butch has more power and a lighter car (I still have all the carpets in Doris).
francob80
23-08-2016, 09:59
Nice Russell, is your cam anything like a Piper 270 or 285? I am not sure what Engine Dynamics offer in way of a cam.
RussellT
23-08-2016, 12:15
Re cam sorry I have no idea what the technical details are.
Great power from 1.4 carb'd GTT :agree: That's usually about the ceiling (in terms of both power and psi), for reliable use.
Looking at the power run, 3500 to 5000 must be a massive rush of blood! :o
francob80
23-08-2016, 14:41
Agreed, great result.
Mine is getting mapped in a few weeks and was just interested in way of a comparison.
I'd be happy with your numbers.
Superb result for 20psi, well done :agree:
Whats the plan now then? Run "as is" or look into upgrading the fuel supply and try and squeeze out a bit more :devil:
RussellT
23-08-2016, 16:15
I took the throttle body to show Scoff and he just felt we had to move the fuel rail to fit some bigger injectors and it should work. My pit crew have a inlet manifold to work with to help make up the required pipes to fit the TB. That's the easy part then there is the fuel circuit throttle cable, mounting the TBs, moving the coil pack and prob a load of other things I havent thought of. Should be fun! Ill keep you all posted.
Did your conrods hit the liners? I know mine did
turbo code is gt2560 or 200sx s14a turbo
RussellT
03-09-2016, 18:50
Doris is back in competition!
At a very wet Aintree I gingerly increased tthe gain on the boost controller. Starting at 20% I went up in 10% stages through 2 practice and 2 timed runs. The last run at 50% gain produce 17.2 psi and despite Plowright through rivers and lakes of water Doris managed to post the fastest speed trap time in class at 112 and I ended up second to a lovely Schiroco 1.4 turbo and supercharged engine.
Doris was awesome running like a bullet train, pulling all the way through the finish with a roaring sound track.
I think I can consider her "run in" now.
:yeah:
Do you ever run at Donington Russell? I'd like to come and have a butchers if you race anywhere near me in the calendar (Derby/Burton).
RussellT
04-09-2016, 13:20
Thanks Trevor sorry we don't go to Donnington it would be great if we did at what has to be one of the very best circuits in the world. Lotion Park in Shropshire is the furthest south I go. I would suggest for a great day out you need an event with Ian Butcher in his mega 5 as well as Doris on a sunny day. Harewood has great spectator viewing with plenty of split times and a commentator. A sunny day at Trac Mon on Anglesey has the most amazing scenery.
The nearest venue to you is Curborough only 10 miles away. rather the opposite to Donnington I don't compete there but Ian does.
Harewood is 90 minutes away from you, straight up the M1.
RussellT
05-09-2016, 09:32
Some photos of Doris splashing around Aintree here
http://www.whitedogphotography.co.uk/pages/2016-motor-sport-galleries.php?gall_id=109
and there are more on page 3
Thanks for the info Russell. Yeah, I've not seen any Donington reports from you so I doubted it was part of the calendar. Bum :(
Ok, perhaps Harewood next season then if it turns out you are both going to be there :cool:
Aintree is only half an hour or so from my house, I really need to come and see you next time you're there Russ :agree:
RussellT
06-09-2016, 23:24
Mock up of the proposed plenum chamber.
Proposed plenum.jpg (http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Doris%20Files/Proposed%20plenum.jpg)
Plenum from back.jpg (http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Doris%20Files/Plenum%20from%20back.jpg)
It works out at close to 1.4L just by chance :)
I can see some gaps. I don't think that's going to hold pressure when it's on the car :laugh:
RussellT
19-09-2016, 14:13
Work in progress
TB Manifold.jpg (http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Doris%20Files/TB%20Manifold.jpg)
TB from top.jpg (http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Doris%20Files/TB%20from%20top.jpg)
Matt Cole
20-09-2016, 07:09
Are housed building this yourself Russ? Love the idea of throttle bodies.:agree:
RussellT
20-09-2016, 14:54
A guy called Andy Harrison at my local garage is fabricating it. I just bounce ideas off him. The latest is a link between the two sides to equalise the pressure and also allow us to fit the one way valves for the breather system and brake servo. It will also add stability.
Pity Scoff at EFI he will have to try and make this monster work.
Matt Cole
20-09-2016, 23:52
All in a days work for scoff!;)
RussellT
22-09-2016, 23:13
Andy at work
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Doris%20Files/Andy%20at%20work.jpg
RussellT
03-10-2016, 23:40
I spent an amazing WE on Anglesey. Sat was a wash out. I ran Doris at 12 psi and was just 14 thats FOURTEEN!! seconds behind Keith Minshall in his 306 after 1st practice. I ended up no where but I caught the Clio ahead of me on my driest run. I was offered a rerun but there was no point as the rain had started again and the event was in real danger of hitting the curfew.
The Sunday however was as good a day as sprinting gets. An amazing venue on a warm sunny day. I ran Doris at 17psi and she just flew. The combination of the new head and bigger turbo is nothing short of dramatic. The engine just revs for fun. I was hitting the rev limiter without realising I was at that level of revs. In the past I never got near it as the engine ran out of steam and you automatically went for the next gear. Now its still pulling strong as the limiter kicks in. In fact its sucking fuel so fast that I ran out of fuel with around 20L in the car.
I had a few issues mainly being out of practice a long brake pedal that messed up my heel and toeing and tyres that improved as a layer of grime and old rubber was scrubbed off. In the end, as I got back into the hang of sliding the rear into the corners and despite a cough and a splutter after the long banked right handed hairpin I set a new PB of 106.92 sec for a 3rd place with Keith second to James Kerr who ran a stonking 103 seconds to take 3 seconds off the old record.
If I had any doubts before I know now that this engine demands the throttle body conversion.
Sounds awesome Russell, we need more info and pictures on this throttle body conversion! :agree:
RussellT
19-10-2016, 15:14
Rough finished inlet manifold.
Still a lot to sort out. Ive bought some aluminium sheet to make a plenum chamber with some suitable pipe to make the inlet and exits.
I hope Scoff can source some bigger injectors but I have concerns as the OEM ones have a very specific nozzle shape. Fingers crossed.
Inlet complete.jpg (http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Doris%20Files/Inlet%20complete.jpg)
Coming along nicely.
Have the class rule changes been put in place yet Russell, or is that next year? Will the new inlet alter your class designation? Would it have had the rules not changed??
RussellT
20-10-2016, 15:51
A standard car class has been added stating that the car has to have been made in quantities over 5000 been made since 2000 and the forced induction multiplier is 1.7.
For my class induction is free and the forced induction multiplier remains at 1.4 (at least for the time being). There was of course a Renault 5 with EFI and no one has been bothered by Ian Butchers 5 GT turbo competing with EFI.
To be honest pots at the end of the year are nice but rather determined by the fortunes or misfortunes of others. Playing with the car, trying to go faster than you have gone before is more exciting.
R
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