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First post!
Hello
New member here this is my black phase 2 5 GT Turbo.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_2404_zpsthevj9jn.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_2404_zpsthevj9jn.jpg.html)
Welcome, car looks nice and clean.
Got much plans for the car?
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Thanks for the welcome
The bodywork is all good there is no rot anywhere, the arches and sills are all perfect and mechanically its just as good, start's first time every time, gear box is perfect, No knocks or bangs it drives like new.
The engine is mostly standard with just an uprated alloy intercooler, Air filter and alloy radiator, The clutch feels like it may be uprated also although i am not 100% sure.
Its currently set up to run 14psi, Boost gauge and Air fuel ratio gauge's are installed and my next plan is to fit a bigger turbo which i am hoping you guy's can advise me on.
That's sounds like a lovely car to start off with. Do you know what turbo is in there already?
Choosing a turbo is depending on your style of driving. I prefer a T2/T25 as like lively country lane driving. Was running at 18psi with similar setup to you if the intercooler is just a replacement OE style alloy one. T25 is a nice in between style for power and driveability or can go T28 but you will start looking at quite a bit more lag and having to change more of the engine components to counter this out. There are quite a few companies (think on Facebook person called Turbo Bernies Blowers who are really good, or even rebuilding your original one and changing the spec of it if its possible.
B18ftMOJO5
24-11-2015, 17:29
Welcome to the club. Lovely looking car you got.:agree:
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
As far as I'm aware the turbo is the standard T2, It looks pretty small so i'm guessing that's the case, I will upload a photo in case you can tell.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_0825_zpsuu9qu8lr.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_0825_zpsuu9qu8lr.jpg.html)
My intercooler is indeed one of the alloy OE style replacement one's. From the little bit of research i have done i think my choice of turbo will be between the first two that you have mentioned the T2/T25 hybrid or a full T25.
How would you compare the two in the real world? like your self i am also a big fan of country lane driving and i also like the novelty aspect of being pushed back in your seat.
I am not a number chaser or a drag racer, I'm after a fast road car and maybe some track use so i'm really torn between those two turbo's and having not experienced them my self i'm a little unsure what decision to make so it would be great to hear some opinions from people who have experience with both turbo's.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Welcome to the club. Lovely looking car you got.:agree:
Thank you :agree:
You cant tell from that picture, normally they will have figures written in the cast to give you an idea on it. But from the state of that I would be guessing its still the original turbo on there. As that's not come off for a long time. Good luck with those nuts.
The T2/T25 is never going to pin you back, don't get me wrong this will still push up you up the revs but running more than 18/19psi you will be producing too much heat and wont be efficient enough. With the setup you will have will give you about 170-180bhp. The T25 will be more efficient, will give a nice kick back in the seat and get you going up to 7k revs. But for a country lane drive you will find you will need to keep changing the gears down to keep the revs high enough.
Has the car had a service lately, and from pictures the hoses look like they have been replaced so should be good for no leaks plus the cup mod has been done to the actuator. You got a full picture of the engine bay?
Any changes of turbo / boost you will need to sort the carb out, maybe worth rebuilding it fully with the changes being made.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
You cant tell from that picture, normally they will have figures written in the cast to give you an idea on it. But from the state of that I would be guessing its still the original turbo on there. As that's not come off for a long time. Good luck with those nuts.
The T2/T25 is never going to pin you back, don't get me wrong this will still push up you up the revs but running more than 18/19psi you will be producing too much heat and wont be efficient enough. With the setup you will have will give you about 170-180bhp. The T25 will be more efficient, will give a nice kick back in the seat and get you going up to 7k revs. But for a country lane drive you will find you will need to keep changing the gears down to keep the revs high enough.
Has the car had a service lately, and from pictures the hoses look like they have been replaced so should be good for no leaks plus the cup mod has been done to the actuator. You got a full picture of the engine bay?
Any changes of turbo / boost you will need to sort the carb out, maybe worth rebuilding it fully with the changes being made.
Based on that i think i may go for the T25, Will the T25 still perform well with the standard cam? And what is the safe rev limit for these engines with the standard cam in place?
The car has been recently serviced (less than 100 miles ago) using total quartz 10w50 and NGK B8EG plug's, new filter, sump plug, dizzy cap & rotor arm and new gear box oil also.
I also have a spare carb i plan on buying a rebuild kit for and re jetting when i acquire the new turbo. I have a rough idea of what jet's need changing but again i would appreciate some guidance when the time comes to actually setting this up.
Here is a picture of the engine bay.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_0837_zpspl6ctpng.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_0837_zpspl6ctpng.jpg.html)
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Welcome :D
Fancy seeing you over here, Thank's again for the spare carb top ;)
Dare I ask what that wire is running along drivers wing?
When you sort out the turbo remove the bleed valve and control through the actuator.
The turbo will still be ok, dependant on back housing you can get. Think it's .47 is preferable with T25 turbos. Standard cam is OK for it but with a 285 can it's quite surprising the difference it can make but it's something which you can look at later on.
Would advise sorting out just above the turbo with wiring and pipe work
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
At some point in time somebody has wired the fan onto a switch which is what i believe that wire running along the wing is for and looking at the picture now i can see the need to tidy up that wiring above the turbo.
There is a T25 currently on ebay ( from a GTT race car i believe ) with a .49 rear it also states the internals have been upgraded to a T25/28 with a high flow billet wheel.
Would this be a good turbo for fast road use without too much lag?
Got a link to it? Yeah would remove the wiring for fan and get the original back up and working its its not already.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Wasn't sure if i was allowed to post links.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201471564768?_trksid=p2060353.m2763.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Matt Cole
24-11-2015, 20:22
Welcome. Lovely looking car. I would keep it as original as possible with a few minor tweaks and enjoy!;)
turbo ted
24-11-2015, 20:22
That turbo has not got billet compressor wheel but it does have a slightly bigger compressor wheel the rest is standard;)
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Welcome. Lovely looking car. I would keep it as original as possible with a few minor tweaks and enjoy!;)
That's the plan, Cosmetically i will keep it as original as possible, The only upgrades i have planned are performance based really.
That turbo has not got billet compressor wheel but it does have a slightly bigger compressor wheel the rest is standard;)
So technically this would be more laggy than a standard T25? How do you think this turbo would perform on a GTT? i don't want anything that is extremely laggy but i am happy to compromise somewhat for more punch over a T2/T25.
turbo ted
24-11-2015, 20:51
It all depends on the engine tune has it got standard cam or high lift if its still standard cam I go for a t2/25 other wise it wont get going until 3500rpm but if want t25 you will need a piper 285 cam or something to the same spec which will help spool the turbo.
Slammed 66
24-11-2015, 22:04
Nice looking car Flarty :agree:
Welcome to RTOC
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
It all depends on the engine tune has it got standard cam or high lift if its still standard cam I go for a t2/25 other wise it wont get going until 3500rpm but if want t25 you will need a piper 285 cam or something to the same spec which will help spool the turbo.
My cam is standard and with it being an engine out job to change it i would prefer to keep it for now so this is where im a little uncertain of which route to take.
Has anybody actually ran a T25 with standard cam? if so how do you find it?
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
My cam is standard and with it being an engine out job to change it i would prefer to keep it for now so this is where im a little uncertain of which route to take.
Has anybody actually ran a T25 with standard cam? if so how do you find it?
As previously said the T25 will take a little bit longer to spool up but wont ruin the don't feel of the drive. Have driven with 285 cam with a T25 and one without. I would definitely prefer it with as does put back the feel of a T2 turbo drive back into the car but with a lot more power and high end power.
Nice car, welcome along :)
From the engine bay pics it appears the car has been played about with quite a lot, so I would confirm what turbo is on there at the moment before doing anything else (though Bigfoot's note about it being OE as it's been on for ages is very likely to be spot on). If the turbo is indeed uprated in one way or another and is running ok, it might not need changing out, you might only need to (re)tune the fuel/carb set-up.
Edit - My preference with the OE cam would be a T2/T25 hybrid set-up to 18-20psi, revving to 6500rpm. Great fun without stressing everything too much, or costing a lot to achieve, or taking too long to realise.
Right ok, Im going to take a good look at the turbo later and see if i can see any markings indicating what it actually is.
The engine spec has always a bit of a mystery, The previous owner didn't know much about the spec and when i purchased the car as far as he was aware it was relatively standard there was no boost gauge fitted so i fitted my own boost gauge and the car was boosting at 10psi at the vacuum line going to the AEI unit.The under bonnet bleed valve was already present and the down pipe already had a boss welded in it for a wide band sensor which i thought was strange for a car only running 10 psi.
I purchased the AEM wide band and promptly fitted it. At 10 psi the afr's were mid 11's at 5k + Rpm , I assumed the carb had not been played with at this point so i did not at that time increase the boost any further, I purchased a second carb to play with my self before increasing the boost further and or upgrading the turbo, However for experimentation i decided to try it at 14psi to see what my AFR's would be and to my surprise they were high 11's at 5k+ rpm at W0T.
This leaves me a a little unsure of what has actually been done to engine. The afr's lead me to believe the carb may already have been played with, The clutch feels like it may be uprated as its very much like an on off button. I will take a good look at the turbo today and see if i can work out what it actually is, as mentioned it looks like its not been off in a long time, that said the car has zero smoke, at idle or under boost and doesn't appear to use any oil or water it runs spot on.
Good info and good plan, keep us updated :agree: :)
Having a AFR gauge is always a great asset :agree:
Maybe it's normal that the AFRs are slightly different but 'good enough' at both 10psi and 14psi, even if everything on the car is standard. This would tally with experience, as years ago folk were flying blind by just upping the boost on a standard set-up from 7psi to about 15psi (base of carb), with no carb adjustment at all. It appeared people ran like this for years without issue, me included, yet everyone knew not to push it beyond that level (for various reasons, including the T2 starting to go off-map).
Perhaps a rough and unspoken rule of thumb is that if you up the boost without an AFR gauge, don't go beyond 15psi on any turbo. Any more than that and suddenly attention to carb tuning is absolutely essential, which obviously requires AFRs.
francob80
25-11-2015, 12:23
Looks like your fuel pressure reg has been moved also.
MR TURBO
25-11-2015, 12:49
Very nice car.....Welcome to RTOC chap
Looks like your fuel pressure reg has been moved also.
This is more new news to me. This is my first five so i am not familiar where everything should be as standard, Is this a common thing to relocate? Where would it have been originally?
Very nice car.....Welcome to RTOC chap
Thank you.
Right i have had a good luck at this turbo, and tbh it's very hard to see any marking's, I can't see any on the exhaust side, and could just about see this on the compressor side.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_0871_zpsge8pwvvu.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_0871_zpsge8pwvvu.jpg.html)
I think there may be some other markings on the compressor side but with all the pipe work and dirt i could not make anything out, I will however take another look and try and clean some of the grime around that area later on.
I took a blind photo of the underside of the turbo in case there were marking i could not see from above and now viewing the photo it appears there is bolt hole unused on the turbo that dose not match the bolt pattern on the elbow.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_0844_zpszyw9qcp0.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_0844_zpszyw9qcp0.jpg.html)
That's a Garret T2 turbo
Thank's, I just had another look at it has A/R 51 stamped on it also.
According to Scoff: The standard turbo has a 50 trim compressor in a 0.48ar cover and a 58 trim turbine in 0.35ar housing.
Dale, I'm no authority on this so what would that indicate in reference to Flarty's turbo? Assuming the 51a/r is on the compressor cover, then it sounds like it might be bigger? Is this turbo a hybrid? T25 front, T2 rear?
For confirmation sake i just snapped this.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_0914_zpsfbwxqzan.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_0914_zpsfbwxqzan.jpg.html)
Been a while since I have seen a std T2 but the M27 and A/r 51 don't look like Std R5 GTT T2 sizes, also the bolt pattern on the rear housing if std all holes would align up.
You really need to take the turbo off and look inside the flange that meets the exhaust manifold they tend to be stamped inside as to the rear housing size. I admit it still looks small but the fact it's not aligned correct does make me think it's not std. For some reason I am thinking Maybe the slightly bigger T2 of a Volvo 1.7 lump?? I still wouldn't want to run more than 1bar through it.
This is the only other marking i can see anywhere on the exhaust side its on the turbo to manifold joint i still can't make out what it say's, i wiped some water over the lettering to try and make it a bit my clear.
The bolts on the manifold joint also appear much newer.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_0876_zps8oqpasn3.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_0876_zps8oqpasn3.jpg.html)
It seems my current turbo is also a bit of a mystery :D
I have found another turbo on ebay
A recon Garrett T2/T25 hybrid, I've messaged the seller who has informed me it has a .35 exhaust housing.
He's told me its plug and play except it will need an oil adapter but hes unsure of which adapter i will need. How do i work out which oil adapter i will need?
Here's a link to the turbo.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrett-T2-T25-Hybrid-Turbo-Renault-5-GT-Turbo-Turbocharger-Reconditioned-unit-/111832541599?fits=Car+Make%3ARenault&hash=item1a09bd299f:g:ymUAAOSw5ZBWH7Yd
francob80
25-11-2015, 20:46
Your local Pirtek can usually help with oil fixing & thread style.
The fuel pressure reg is usually much lower than yours. People with higher boosted cars run an uprated adjustable fuel pressure reg and put it where yours is for easy access. Yours does look standard though.
francob80
25-11-2015, 21:10
When I bought my turbo, I took the turbo and oil feed to my local Pirtek and although they didn't have the oil adaptor I needed they did confirm the threads. I then sourced the adaptor from Merlin Motorsport.
Thanks that seems straight forward enough, Time to make the seller an offer. :agree:
It seems my current turbo is also a bit of a mystery :D
I have found another turbo on ebay
A recon Garrett T2/T25 hybrid, I've messaged the seller who has informed me it has a .35 exhaust housing.
He's told me its plug and play except it will need an oil adapter but hes unsure of which adapter i will need. How do i work out which oil adapter i will need?
Here's a link to the turbo.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrett-T2-T25-Hybrid-Turbo-Renault-5-GT-Turbo-Turbocharger-Reconditioned-unit-/111832541599?fits=Car+Make%3ARenault&hash=item1a09bd299f:g:ymUAAOSw5ZBWH7Yd
Dude I wouldn't even bother with that turbo it has a std T2 compressor housing and Std T2 rear housing the core looks different.
Dude I wouldn't even bother with that turbo it has a std T2 compressor housing and Std T2 rear housing the core looks different.
For real? so its not a real T2/T25?
Mr Raider
25-11-2015, 22:46
Welcome along fella, sweet 5! :agree: :)
For real? so its not a real T2/T25?
The core maybe T25 but the housing are std size on that ebay turbo.
You on facebook, be worth contacting bernie wilky and seeing if he will make you a custom turbo to your spec for a good price.
The bolts on the manifold joint also appear much newer.They're not. They are the original stainless nuts with stainless wire for a thread. There were maybe £10 each.
They undo when you want them to. Which can't be said for all other nuts.
They seem to be locking nuts too as they are can be bit resistant to turn even though they're clean and new looking.
The engine has also suffered some alterations to the crank breather. The swirl pot looks to have been deleted and the pipes changed. It may smoke without that.
Also the anti-percolation cooling for the carb has been deleted. Some people who live in cities find the car better with that cooling.
Those boost hoses look ready to split.
Maybe it did have an after market fuel pressure reg. at some point which was taken off and the OE refitted before the car was sold.
There's some bodgery gone on under that bonnet.
They're not. They are the original stainless nuts with stainless wire for a thread. There were maybe £10 each.
They undo when you want them to. Which can't be said for all other nuts.
They seem to be locking nuts too as they are can be bit resistant to turn even though they're clean and new looking.
The engine has also suffered some alterations to the crank breather. The swirl pot looks to have been deleted and the pipes changed. It may smoke without that.
Also the anti-percolation cooling for the carb has been deleted. Some people who live in cities find the car better with that cooling.
Those boost hoses look ready to split.
Maybe it did have an after market fuel pressure reg. at some point which was taken off and the OE refitted before the car was sold.
There's some bodgery gone on under that bonnet.
My understanding was that the Anti perc fan is usually moved due to it potentially being a fire hazard?, Iv'e never had a problem with hot start's , Do you recommend re fitting the anti perc fan?
How do i rectify the changes to the breather system?
It would be much appreciated if you could elaborate on how to rectify anything that has been bodged, like i say this is my first five and i am not as familiar with them as you guy's and i am learning as i go. Anything that has been bodged i would like to know about so i can sort it out right away.
francob80
26-11-2015, 10:27
Here is a diagram of the OE breather system.
http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u625/francob80/Breathers_zpsa4p3dwdy.jpg (http://s1325.photobucket.com/user/francob80/media/Breathers_zpsa4p3dwdy.jpg.html)
I wouldn't worry too much about the perc fan, many people do not run them including myself with no issues. I maybe have to crank the car slightly longer on a particularly warm day, 9/10 times it starts on the button.
francob80
26-11-2015, 10:36
Also there is no real advantage to move the OE FPR back to it's original position unless you are going for the complete OE engine bay look.
http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u625/francob80/Engine%20bay_zpskjvhhqqj.jpg (http://s1325.photobucket.com/user/francob80/media/Engine%20bay_zpskjvhhqqj.jpg.html)
Here is my engine bay with a few changes. I have simplified my breather system somewhat by blocking off the pipe that comes out of the inlet, I then run breather hose from rocker cover to swirl pot as usual but adding a filter. Some people run to a catch tank too which I have fitted but not yet piped up.
You can also see adjustable FPR near right strut.
Thanks ill take the breather diagram out with me and see whats missing etc.
At which point do people start upgrading the FPR?
I am not necessarily going to the OE engine bay look, just clean tidy and functional and certainly no bodge job's.
francob80
26-11-2015, 10:49
At which point do people start upgrading the FPR?
.
I'm not sure what the turning point is but in my situation as soon as I started running 20psi + i needed to keep the carb bowl full at high boost/RPM so needed increased fuel pressure. The malpassi FPR allows you to do that, mine is currently set to 5.5psi at idle. I think the standard FPR runs about 3/4psi.
I'm not sure what the turning point is but in my situation as soon as I started running 20psi + i needed to keep the carb bowl full at high boost/RPM so needed increased fuel pressure.
One of the many reasons why I suggested a T2/T25 hybrid set-up to 18-20psi, revving to 6500rpm. FPR's aren't prohibitive on their own but it's simply less hassle and cost. :agree:
At 25PSI my car never had a problem running out of float chamber fuel. But it did have the earlier fuel pump which was said to do something or other better than the later one. So I had the original fuel pressure regulator.
At over 18psi, mine did blow oil, there was some combustion blowing past the rings I presume and pressuring the crankcase. I fitted a home made catch tank to the end of the breather pipe that previously went into the 'telephone' hose (the big U shape one from the air filter to the compressor). That stopped it collecting in the inter cooler and from misting out of the dump valve all over the engine bay. Actually there was only a few desert spoons full in there after months of use, but it went a long way otherwise, especially as the engine was mostly either painted white or polished / chromed.
It's not just about hot starting. People who lived in North London would tell me that after they took the fan off, as soon as they came out of the countryside back into the (miles of) slow traffic their car's ran poorly but were fine again once the fan was refitted. I found this occasional myself. If you're able to get by without it then that's clutter removed :) The fire hazard was prevented with the addition of an in-line fuse.
I'm a little surprised those prongs at the front, poking through the bonnet to hold it down, pass the MOT. I was under the impression that sharp sticking out parts that can hurt pedestrians are not, errm, permissible.
How close are those wires to the turbo / exhaust? It can get very hot there and in time they might take a turn for the worse.
Without the plastic cover over the fan into the passenger, you may have water going in there at times. The get very dirty so there must be something landing on them.
It that yellow tube over at the drivers side of the engine bay a manual fan switch wire?
My first turbo change was to keep it all the same T2 but swap the compressor wheel for a bigger one, maybe the Nissan Silvia, and have the housing bored out to match it. That was a small but good improvement at higher boost, at that time 15PSI at the inlet manifold. It felt about the same a low boost. No extra lag.
One of the best things I did to give the car much better 'get up and go' was to change the exhaust to the 2 1/4 inch Blue Flame Mongoose. The front turbo pipe on it's own made good improvement as I fitted that just after the rest of the system.
Tidied up the wires above the turbo this afternoon and ordered some new boost hoses, I also found the swirl pot with pipe work still attached in a box of spares that came with the car so not sure why this has been removed. Will try and get my head around the diagram tomorrow and see what's what.
Based on the previous comments i think a T2/T25 hybrid is the way to go for now, if at some point in the future want more then we can look at other options but i assume a T2/T25 hybrid running 18-20psi should be a nice increase in power from the stock T2 at 14psi?
What type of car's will a GT Turbo running above be able to see off?
I have spare carb sitting here that i got to re-jet for a bigger turbo but i'm in two minds weather or not to buy service kit and service my current known working carb or use the spare? what do you think?
phase i 16 v turbo
27-11-2015, 09:42
Hello and welcome, nice to see another black one:agree:
If you haven't seen this, there might be some useful information in there; note the tuning guide at the bottom of the page :)
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=22002
To get torque and power, you need to get the engine to 'breath', ie, flow gas. You can pump as hard as you can with the compressor, but it'll do you less and less good if the gas isn't flowing, including out of the exhaust. As the back pressure rises from the exhaust, and from the small turbine, the engine becomes less and less efficient, and even with high boost, the power isn't commensurate compared to a well flowing configuration.
What size is the stock exhaust system? I'm not sure what exhaust is currently on the car, the down pipe is clearly standard and the back box is clearly aftermarket but i am not sure on the rest of the system.
here's a picture does this look stock? Ill measure the bore size when i get a chance.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/nbvvb_zpsn0hcg50u.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/nbvvb_zpsn0hcg50u.jpg.html)
You could take up the offer being made at the end of this thread and have something awesome from front to back for £200:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=39679
You could take up the offer being made at the end of this thread and have something awesome from front to back for £200:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=39679
That looks like a great offer but If i change the exhaust it will be going to a garage who have a ramp, Id rather not risk trial fitting something that potentially might not fit especially when I'm paying somebody else to do it but thanks for the heads up. :agree:
I'd like to find out if my current exhaust is actually stock or not first if anybody can tell from the picture or can tell me the standard exhausts bore size? Just how restrictive is the stock exhaust? I might just go ahead and see how she goes on the T2/T25 first, i think it might be enough for me and i can look at changing the exhaust at a later date, seems a bit of a shame to change it if its not necessary as the current one doesn't look like its been on the car very long at all.
francob80
27-11-2015, 20:49
Hard to tell from that picture, the back box doesn't look standard. I think standard bore is 2".
Ill see if i can measure the current one, There's a 2.5" one local to me on ebay too ill keep an eye on.
On another note I've just been told i will need det can's running anything over 16psi, Ive no experience with det can's, so would appreciate any advice on here, i assume i need some that extend into the cabin to listen while on boost, what type of det can's do i need and how do i know what to listen for?
EDIT, found some examples of what to listen for on youtube, Any recommendations for easy to set up and route into the car det can's?
francob80
27-11-2015, 21:28
Not sure about det cans at 16psi but if you are that way inclined you can buy a mechanical steth with some 6mm nylon tubing and attach to head. Then run through to the cabin.
Not sure about det cans at 16psi but if you are that way inclined you can buy a mechanical steth with some 6mm nylon tubing and attach to head. Then run through to the cabin.
This is what I've been told is the safe limit before they are needed, by a member of another GT Turbo forum.
The plan is a T2/T25 hybrid set-up to 18-20psi.
francob80
27-11-2015, 21:46
This is what I've been told is the safe limit before they are needed, by a member of another GT Turbo forum.
The plan is a T2/T25 hybrid set-up to 18-20psi.
That's cool, to err on the side of auction it might be sensible however I bet a large percentage of people tuning 5's don't bother but you can have good AFR's and still get detonation.
A mechanical steth will do the trick.
Have you come across many people experiencing det at 18-20 psi? Is this something that can be checked on a rolling road rather than buying det can's? I am a little concerned now having been told this.
francob80
27-11-2015, 21:57
Have you come across many people experiencing det at 18-20 psi? Is this something that can be checked on a rolling road rather than buying det can's? I am a little concerned now having been told this.
I'm sure there have been numerous people who have had their 5's detonating like mad at that sort of boost but mainly due to piss poor fuelling and very high charge temps.
Remember the standard intercooler is ****, even an alloy one in the same place as standard is in a poor position. Ideally you want to look at fitting a front mount cooler. There are other options like charge cooler or even water injection.
you dont need det cans for upto 20psi above maybe, loads run 20psi no probs as long as afrs are correct of course
francob80
27-11-2015, 22:20
By the way, you and I are chatting on two separate forums. haha !
you dont need det cans for upto 20psi above maybe, loads run 20psi no probs as long as afrs are correct of course
Thanks i appreciate the response, I have been reading countless old threads on these forums and other forums for information on what spec's people have run etc and this is the first time i heard about det can's for anything over 16psi, I don't think i came across a single thread where they were even suggested on anything below 20psi That said i don't want to just ignorantly dismiss somebody else's opinion especially when they imply i might grenade my engine and have more experience than my self with these car's that would be very silly.
I am fully aware that increasing the boost on any engine in any car over standard comes with potential risks but from what i have gathered from numerous threads on this forum a T2/T25 with a correctly set up carb good afr's and uprated intercooler if the engine and all its ancillaries are already in good overall health then this was considered a relatively safe and reliable spec to run on an otherwise standard engine, to then hear i need det can's just as i was looking for the best place to order the turbo obviously set alarm bells ringing and made me re consider if i really want to pour money into modifications that are going to push then engine well beyond its ability's to remain reliable.
By the way, you and I are chatting on two separate forums. haha !
i've just realized who you are ;) :agree:
It's not that simple.
Ideally you need mappable ignition timing. And better control over the fuel would be good.
What we do / did with the standard 5GTT is a bit of a fudge.
If you're exhaust is quiet, you tappets are quiet, you are sufficiently perceptive, you can hear / sense / feel detonation. It doesn't even need to make the 'crack'ing sound, the knock is easily sensed by me anyway.
I designed and made my own electronic det detector / headphones. But I could sense it just the same without them. But not everyone could / can.
In my cars last configuration, I needed to not plant the loud pedal until the 'charge' air temperature was below about 40°C, or it would start det'ing before the overtake was done.
I also made and sold suitable high speed charge temp gauges.
The air temp exiting the turbo can be around 250°C. The OE intercooler drops that to about 89°C. The Pace charge cooler drops it to about 94°C. It was found the Forge universal front mount dropped it to about 40°C if lapping a track, but obviously as slower speed there is less cooling.
You are balancing off a few thing against each other; boost, air temp, ignition timing, fuelling. Also head temperature might factor in. And combustion chamber shape, I had mine altered a bit, and the liners bored a bit. Possibly more gas flow though the engine might cool it and allow more boost / cylinder pressure before det'ing, so a lower back pressure from a larger turbine (and better manifold) and free'er exhaust might make more power from the same boost.
To reduce the det and maybe run a few PSI more boost, you can back off the timing by about 4° by moving the TDC sensor one of the two direction. The other increases it about 4°.
My engine dett'ed quite a bit over the years but sustained no damage. When I took it apart after years of that, it was fine. The people who blast holes in their pistons, heads and gaskets must be very badly lacking perception and a feel for what they're doing and det'ing it very badly either for far to long, or under way extreme overboost / underfuel.
You'll have to estimate which type of driver you are. If you can't easily sense the changes, then your best not taking any risks.
My two engines failed due to valves dropping into the chamber, either collets coming off at over 7000rpm or valve top shearing off, or something. Not due to high boost. After that I didn't again want to spend money on that type of engine with push rods and rockers and felt a direct cam on valve design would be better. And a bigger chamber size and less boost.
francob80
28-11-2015, 12:18
Like ^^ :)
francob80
28-11-2015, 12:20
I also made and sold suitable high speed charge temp gauges.
Any chance of making some more of these gauges ?
Great post Ian, very informative.
I believe i am somebody who is very perceptive, i would go as far to say that is actually my strongest attribute, I have the ability to sense the smallest of changes in all things and ironically without getting into specifics this is how i make my living :).
My only experience with knocking was some years ago with a mk1 fiesta which sounded like 20 miniature skeletons having a fight in a metal dust bin with tiny hammers, Similar to the crackling sound some car's make when you turn them off as they cool down. I also noticed the reduction in power, it felt like you were constantly driving up a hill like the engine was fighting its self.
I am not just thinking i'm going to whack on a big ass turbo and wind the boost controller all the way out to its last thread like its 1995 and some geezer in a rs turbos just pulled up next to me at the lights wanting it and then go rag the car all over the place. I am just trying to establish some sort of level of tune that is agreed upon from other peoples years of experience as being a relatively reliable safe state of tune. or do i really need, mapable ignition, control over fueling, charge temp monitoring, det cans and retarded ignition on a T2/T25 Upgrade? If that is the case then like your self i'm not sure im willing to pour money into a car that needs to be monitored likes its on a life support machine , I want a car that i can use and be driven properly without constantly worrying about it going boom, Id rather start with something either quicker or can handle more power without problems.
I love this little car, its great fun and has lots of character, its just not quick enough for me. as a youngster the 5 GTT was a car i looked at in awe, I remember some older guy's i knew talking about this turbo car that pinned you back in the seat and made pshhh sounds i was maybe 9 or 10, id never seen one or had any clue what they were taking about but they made it sound like stuff of legend. To bring the car up to the level of expectations i had imagine as a youngster it certainly needs more power.
I'm not sure what to do at the moment, This GTT was an itch i needed to scratch and i've enjoyed my short time with it, its a cracking car and i imagine back in its day it would have been awesome to own one but as i say its just not quick enough for me. Don't get me wrong at 14 psi its certainly not slow and still quick by many peoples standards but its not the big grin on your face mental i had conjured in my imagination as a youngster.
She is a beauty though.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/IMG_0934_zpsnecahjyo.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/IMG_0934_zpsnecahjyo.jpg.html)
I sense your all jedi's
I sense you're in the know, based on your ability to sense this truth.
I sense you're in the know, based on your ability to sense this truth.
:laugh::laugh:
The standard exhaust is 2" and has a middle silencer (which yours doesn't). Your exhaust looks like a 2" after-market stainless item and wont be a great deal better than OE.
Also, it will be very cost inefficient getting a 2.5" exhaust system if the turbo elbow and crossover pipe remain standard. If you do the former, do it with the intention of upgrading the latter. It will make a big difference. Hence taking a punt on Matty's new system, even if it doesn't fit quite straight the first time.
I don't believe you need det cans below 20psi either. I'd say you need someone experienced to set the boost level and fuelling up for you according to the existing turbo and intercooler's capabilities. :agree:
The prototype exhaust offered on here needs somebody to be able to test in within the next 2 week's which i am not able to do otherwise i would be very interesteed as it looks very well made indeed. What off the shelf exhaust systems are available that are not too loud? The current exhaust is not overly loud and doesn't drone on the motorway etc.
As for setting up carb fueling from what i understand this is just a case of playing with the jet's, Starting with enlarging the 2nd stage checking AFR's then if needed reducing the air corrector as the initial first two stages many people have reported running 20psi without needing to change any other jet's i would be looking to run 18psi and see how i found the performance. My current AFR's are high 11's at WOT which i'm told is fine?
Any chance of making some more of these gauges ?I'd like to but I'm not sure I can do it;
some of the parts I used have gone out of production,
last time I made 15 at once to make it economically viable for both myself and customers,
doing one or two would take maybe 10 to 15 man hours each where I got it down to 7 or so,
I was buying parts from about seven suppliers, meeting their minimum order quantities and price breaks.
I guess parts would come to £100 or so each and I wouldn't want to buy a reel of PTFE tube just for few centimeters, etc.
SPA were making a thermocouple based gauge but their price was high.
14 psiIs that at the manifold or before the throttle?
PowerWhat are you comparing it with? Power to weight was it's advantage. And too much of through the front wheel drive made it a bit barking mad! But the novelty did wear off of doing an overtake at 30mph with the wheels spinning from start to finish and turned to one or other side about 1/4 turn.
But one does feel connected to the driving experience, which a lot of cars (intentionally?) don't give.
I think how ever much power and overtaking performance one has, it soon seems not enough. I fancied Ken Blocks 700BHP fiesta (from his gymkhana video) to drive on the lanes over to my relatives. No traffic in the way then! But his tyres only last 5 minutes! How fast can one afford to go?
Is that at the manifold or before the throttle?
What are you comparing it with? Power to weight was it's advantage. And too much of through the front wheel drive made it a bit barking mad! But the novelty did wear off of doing an overtake at 30mph with the wheels spinning from start to finish and turned to one or other side about 1/4 turn.
But one does feel connected to the driving experience, which a lot of cars (intentionally?) don't give.
I think how ever much power and overtaking performance one has, it soon seems not enough. I fancied Ken Blocks 700BHP fiesta (from his gymkhana video) to drive on the lanes over to my relatives. No traffic in the way then! But his tyres only last 5 minutes! How fast can one afford to go?
My boost gauge is tapped into the vacuum line running to the AEI unit.
The car is technically already quick enough i'm not after more speed, its the novelty of being pinned back into your seat 2nd and 3rd gear for example, I had a saab 9-5 aero early 230bhp model which felt around as quick as the GTT currently feels, already quite quick but i wasn't satisfied . I tuned that in various stages and was finally very happy when abbot racing tuned it to a claimed approximate 300hp, I kept it for around 15 months and did 25k miles and the novelty of 2nd and 3rd gear pulls never wore off.
francob80
28-11-2015, 16:22
I love this little car, its great fun and has lots of character, its just not quick enough for me. as a youngster the 5 GTT was a car i looked at in awe, I remember some older guy's i knew talking about this turbo car that pinned you back in the seat and made pshhh sounds i was maybe 9 or 10, id never seen one or had any clue what they were taking about but they made it sound like stuff of legend. To bring the car up to the level of expectations i had imagine as a youngster it certainly needs more power.
I'm not sure what to do at the moment, This GTT was an itch i needed to scratch and i've enjoyed my short time with it, its a cracking car and i imagine back in its day it would have been awesome to own one but as i say its just not quick enough for me. Don't get me wrong at 14 psi its certainly not slow and still quick by many peoples standards but its not the big grin on your face mental i had conjured in my imagination as a youngster.
If you want mental and big grin you are going to have to put much more power into it than just a turbo and a bit more boost.
Mine weighs around 800kg with approximately 220/230hp and that more than does the job. Pointless in the wet but in the dry with R888s it grips well with next to zero wheel spin. The problem is if you aren't willing to put some money into it you won't get to this stage, it has cost be a fair amount to get there.
francob80
28-11-2015, 16:24
I'd like to but I'm not sure I can do it;
some of the parts I used have gone out of production,
last time I made 15 at once to make it economically viable for both myself and customers,
doing one or two would take maybe 10 to 15 man hours each where I got it down to 7 or so,
I was buying parts from about seven suppliers, meeting their minimum order quantities and price breaks.
I guess parts would come to £100 or so each and I wouldn't want to buy a reel of PTFE tube just for few centimeters, etc.
SPA were making a thermocouple based gauge but their price was high.
What about if we could get 10 people interested and willing to put down a deposit to help get you started ? Would that help ?
If you want mental and big grin you are going to have to put much more power into it than just a turbo and a bit more boost.
Mine weighs around 800kg with approximately 220/230hp and that more than does the job. Pointless in the wet but in the dry with R888s it grips well with next to zero wheel spin. The problem is if you aren't willing to put some money into it you won't get to this stage, it has cost be a fair amount to get there.:agree: Me too.
Once I had the T28 fitted it was laggy but there was no going back from that, it's open road performance was :burnrubber: :cool2:
Around town though, and back doubles, rather hard work and a bit annoying. Hence I wanted to next fit a lower boost 2 litre. A pals one on 6psi was making 250bph and 230ft lbs. He said most of the time he barely needed the boost. I was planning to use a Megane engine based on the 1.7, apparently the same size block as the 5, rather than the larger quite a bit heavier Clio 172, etc. Ran out of spare money.
Whether a boosted 1.4 5GTT would match the fun of a 300bhp Saab, hard to tell, but my 5 out dragged pretty much everything. I didn't have R888 but did briefly run some Yoko A032 which also cured the wheel spin. I fitted 15's so sold them.
If you want mental and big grin you are going to have to put much more power into it than just a turbo and a bit more boost.
Mine weighs around 800kg with approximately 220/230hp and that more than does the job. Pointless in the wet but in the dry with R888s it grips well with next to zero wheel spin. The problem is if you aren't willing to put some money into it you won't get to this stage, it has cost be a fair amount to get there.
Right F it if im going to do it lets get this done done properly :smokin:
Out of interest what is your full spec mate most of it is in your profile anything missing from that exhaust? interested to see what front mount inter cooler you are running.
Is there any front mounts that don't require hacking the front bumper?
francob80
29-11-2015, 11:09
Spec is C1J engine with piper 285 cam, vernier pulley, piper springs, completely standard bottom end. Helix paddle clutch and TTV flywheel about to be fitted. (Current clutch just slips on boost)
Rejetted carb
Malpassi adjustable fuel pressure reg
2.5 side exit
2.5 custom down pipe
GT2560r turbo
forge actuator with 20 psi Spring
Tubular manifold (wouldn't bother with this, plan is to put the standard cast one back on)
Large front mount cooler. (In my case I removed front cross member to fit)
Cossie style K&N air filter
Stripped out - 6 point safety devices cage
Corbeau buckets
I think that's pretty much it, the final piece for me is a decent set of coil overs.
Also yea there are coolers that you don't need to hack bumper etc. I think there's a thread on here somewhere, perhaps in the tuning article section.
francob80
29-11-2015, 13:03
Right F it if im going to do it lets get this done done properly :smokin:
Out of interest what is your full spec mate most of it is in your profile anything missing from that exhaust? interested to see what front mount inter cooler you are running.
Is there any front mounts that don't require hacking the front bumper?
Here's the intercooler.
http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u625/francob80/IMG_1772_zpsvadg6b2l.jpg (http://s1325.photobucket.com/user/francob80/media/IMG_1772_zpsvadg6b2l.jpg.html)
That inter cooler looks huge lol What's my best option without having to chop away at anything? I wasn't to keep the body as original as possible. Ive seen a couple of people with a rad/inter cooler in one unit. but can't find any like this for sale.
francob80
29-11-2015, 13:28
That inter cooler looks huge lol What's my best option without having to chop away at anything? I wasn't to keep the body as original as possible. Ive seen a couple of people with a rad/inter cooler in one unit. but can't find any like this for sale.
This thread tells you about coolers - http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=4755
francob80
29-11-2015, 13:34
That inter cooler looks huge lol What's my best option without having to chop away at anything? I wasn't to keep the body as original as possible. Ive seen a couple of people with a rad/inter cooler in one unit. but can't find any like this for sale.
With bumper fitted - Ignore the big hole, its a work in progress and will probably be swapped with new/different bumper. But you can see cooler is nice and hidden.
http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u625/francob80/thumb_IMG_1782_1024_zpsmcu9jzfg.jpg (http://s1325.photobucket.com/user/francob80/media/thumb_IMG_1782_1024_zpsmcu9jzfg.jpg.html)
That looks good actually, i thought the front of the bumper was cut, Does cutting the cross member not effect the structural integrity tho?
francob80
29-11-2015, 13:55
That looks good actually, i thought the front of the bumper was cut, Does cutting the cross member not effect the structural integrity tho?
Hmm well quite possibly, I guess you could argue removing the cross member loses some structural integrity but by adding the cage and strut brace I guess I'm putting some of that back into the car. Many people have removed the cross member to add similar size cooler before so I decided to bite the bullet myself. 5's aren't exactly at the top of the tree when it comes to strength lol, as you know they are made out of tin foil.
The down sides with this particular cooler is you do have to chop a bit of the bumper mainly around the fog light section which means you can't really refit the fogs (maybe be able to find a fix for this, just haven't tried yet) as the inlet/outlet hoses get in the way, as it's mainly going to be a track/weekend toy this didn't bother me. Your's however looks much cleaner than mine so you may want to keep all of that intact. Maybe a smaller cooler will work allowing you to keep cross member and fogs.
Found a few old threads on here from people running universal front mount's without cutting anything, Will pop the bumper off and have a good measure up and see what will fit. :agree:
BTW What are your AFR's like at 20psi?,
francob80
29-11-2015, 17:18
Found a few old threads on here from people running universal front mount's without cutting anything, Will pop the bumper off and have a good measure up and see what will fit. :agree:
BTW What are your AFR's like at 20psi?,
mid 11s currently at 7k in 4th, still more power past 7k on mine but I need to increase rev limiter slightly. Also until new clutch is fitted it just slips so can't properly set it up.
turbo ted
29-11-2015, 20:59
That looks good actually, i thought the front of the bumper was cut, Does cutting the cross member not effect the structural integrity tho?
Cutting cross member does not effect the structer as all stress goes through the subframe my cross member gone along time now and I'm putting 611hp through it
francob80
29-11-2015, 21:28
Haha there you got Flarty, if it's good for 600hp it's good enough for our measley attempts. :D
Cutting cross member does not effect the structer as all stress goes through the subframe my cross member gone along time now and I'm putting 611hp through it
Well i guess that clears that up lol.
And so it begins.......no going back now, i guess you only live once :mad:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/_57_zpsidktbn9q.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/_57_zpsidktbn9q.jpg.html)
And so it begins.......no going back now, i guess you only live once :mad:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/Flarty85/_57_zpsidktbn9q.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/Flarty85/media/_57_zpsidktbn9q.jpg.html)
T25 what size is the rear housing?
.49,i think .47 is preferd on the t25 so may be a bit more laggy than id like but was a very good price and is coming from a reputable person who runs a renault 5 race car.
.49,i think .47 is preferd on the t25 so may be a bit more laggy than id like but was a very good price and is coming from a reputable person who runs a renault 5 race car.
.49 will be fine full boost around 3300-3500rpm's, I ran a T28 with .49 rear I actually liked the way it drove I even managed a good 1/4 time on it @18psi when you look at others around my time on the leaderboard and the spec of my setup was much lower than other's
.49 will be fine full boost around 3300-3500rpm's, I ran a T28 with .49 rear I actually liked the way it drove I even managed a good 1/4 time on it @18psi when you look at others around my time on the leaderboard and the spec of my setup was much lower than other's
That's good to hear :) a little lag might be beneficial in some scenarios as i find the little t2 wants to boost all the time when just pottering around, and on the motorway you can't really cruise at 70 in 5th without it wanting to boost either. I am not sure why anybody complained about turbo lag on these cars back in the day.
Without that small augmenting boost, all you have is a low compression 1.4 litre. It's surprising slow.
My T25 arrived today, looks pretty much the same size as the turbo on the car now, So i've started another thread to try and i.d it once and for all.
http://rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?p=399884#post399884
Will be interesting to get to the bottom of this. :)
Either way, no harm done, you can always sell the new one on if it's not needed. :agree:
Will be interesting to get to the bottom of this. :)
Either way, no harm done, you can always sell the new one on if it's not needed. :agree:
lol got it off the car now, side by side the new turbo is definitely a little bigger, added some comparison pics in the other thread.
I looked at another GT Turbo today that a friend of a friend has just picked up and the T2 on his looks TINY compared to my old turbo :eek: The exhaust side looked the same size but the compressor side was much smaller but at the same time my t25 is bigger than my old turbo so im not sure what the hell it was, Somebody told me it must be a T2/T25 Or a small T25, either way i've just sold it extremely cheap if that's the case.
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