View Full Version : R5 GTT Rear Wheel Drive 172 project
I can't believe I've just realised my car has been off the road since April 2007 so I think it's time to pull my finger out! And aim to get it on the road for the Santa Pod RTOC or sooner!!
Apart form wash it and periodically pump up the tyres I've done absolutely nothing to the car itself.. and it shows as the poor thing has developed moss around the bodykit and a layer of spores on the steering wheel. Well I've got most of that off and now it's sitting on my driver under a nice warm argos special car cover.
I never got round to posting about my Rear wheel drive project itself but you can catch up at my website http://www.gomodit.co.uk (http://www.gomodit.co.uk/)
Anyway back on track this thread will be about converting my basically standard R5GTT lump to a normally aspirated 172 engine.
Here's a pic on my MOT day just after converting it to Rear Wheel Drive it seems such a long time ago now..
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/motday500.png
Where the pics for the rear 172 conversion:cooter:
Where the pics for the rear 172 conversion:cooter:
okay okay I get the message... well you'll be pleased to hear I did start stripping out the old engine today hopefully have the whole thing out tomorrow weather permitting :)
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/?action=view¤t=IMG_2651.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3 Cimg%20src=%22http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/IMG_2651.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Photobuc ket%22%3E%3C/a%3Ehttp://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/IMG_2650.jpg
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/IMG_2651.jpg%5B/IMG%5D
well the engine is out.. so that's a start I've started looking at the new engine and need to file out the holes in the throttle body to fit the phase two manifold and it looks like I'll need to do a little filing on the gtx engine mount as it fouls the engine a little bit
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/IMG_2671_ringed.jpg
Drill and tap the plenium matey to get the phase 1 TB in place you will prob find that 1 bolt goes in ok and the other 3 will need slight re-alignment with M6 Tap. :) Don't think i had to make any alterations to the GTX front mount, had to make a few to the new alternator bracket though.
Looking good so far matey. Keep the pic's coming
Well... the engine is now in, although I've just found a bodged repair on the sump so I think it looks like a new one is needed..:cry: Does nayone know whether the 172 sump is the same as anyother renualt model?
Also I'm on the look out for a fuel rail with a fuel regulator that will fit..:scratch:
Apart from the set back things are going well and I'm just about to start strping the original loom for the bits I need to connect to the Emerald ECU.
Here's a picture as things are now...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/IMAGE_006.jpg
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/?action=view¤t=IMAGE_006.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E% 3Cimg%20src=%22http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/IMAGE_006.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22renault sport%20enigne%20in%20front%20view%22%3E%3C/a%3E
Looking good matey keep the pictures flowing:)
Ideally what you need is a phase 1 172 clio rail with fpr built in or a phase 1 16v fuel rail and fpr I believe may also work.
Looking good matey keep the pictures flowing:)
Ideally what you need is a phase 1 172 clio rail with fpr built in or a phase 1 16v fuel rail and fpr I believe may also work.
Good news I've sourced a fuel rail from cit-ren cost me £40 which isn't too bad at least it keeps the project moving
Also a fine fellow from the cliosport forum is sending me a oil sump for £20 - bargin so things are moving again... going to pick up an engine stand to make changing the sump a little easier before the weekend, just got to hope the rain stops :)
How's it coming on matey?
Whats the word on this? still going?
yeah still going, just haven't had chance to up load any pics..
The wirings 90% done just waiting my ecu to come back.. had a bit of user error - I was using the wrong comms cable
I'm still waiting for my new fuel tank to arrive, it's made or so I'm led to believe but he just needs to send it :( - it's an alloy tank to replace my rather pikey jerry can :)
I've just been to an intro to sprinting day at Curborough so I have another list of things I need to do like panel out the back (a bit like a turbo2) and some smaller things like put a towing eye on the back
but all in all it's getting pretty close.. I cranked it over the other just to make sure my starter motor could engauge and it did so that's a good start :)
I'll try and get some more pics up soon
Can anyone tell me where the pipe from the fuel regualtor connects to? is it the little pipe on the throttle body?
It connects to the little pipe on the plenum. Its sticking out from behind the throttle body...
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=344&pictureid=3278
you can see it just behind the tps!
where does the slightly larger pipe go.. you can see it near the coil pack(throttle body end) disappearing into your scuttle panel?
Its just the air blled pipe from the top of the thermostat housing to the top port on header tank!
I think I've piped that one up but there's 3 others I'm unsure about.. can any just be blocked off?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/whatarethesepipesfor.jpg
No.3 is the breather, No.2 you could use as your brake servo vacuum and I dare say No.1 can be blocked off.
No.3 is the breather, No.2 you could use as your brake servo vacuum and I dare say No.1 can be blocked off.
Agree with chris I have left number 1 open with no pipes connected, I have used number 2 for brake servo, and 3 I have got a pipe with a small breather filter on it
No.3 is the breather, No.2 you could use as your brake servo vacuum and I dare say No.1 can be blocked off.
Ahh thanks.. I seem to have my brake servo plumbed in to something near the vvt plug - can this be used also? so if thats the case I can block all off except the breather :)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/brakeservo.jpg
Ahh thanks.. I seem to have my brake servo plumbed in to something near the vvt plug - can this be used also? so if thats the case I can block all off except the breather :)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/brakeservo.jpg
That's part of the carbon canister breather setup, I have blocked that off matey
That's part of the carbon canister breather setup, I have blocked that off matey
doh.. I better get re-plumbing - at least this concludes my plumbing antics :) and I did such a neat job of it :(
Andrew Cooke
05-05-2009, 13:10
just been reading back, and noticed something about Curborough, are you planning on sprinting as I can't imagine what class you'd be eligible for. I suppose since they're letting rear engine minis run they must have given up worring about the rules in Sports Libra.
Yeah I'm planning my first event to be on the 14th of June at Curborough...
I went to Curborough at the weekend for an intro day and I asked about what I needed to do to prepare it for sports libre and they were pretty simular to that of other classes the main thing I need to do is seal the engine bay off.. which I suppose makes sense..
the other things are mostly just mark your ignition - although I seem to think I need an external circuit breaker after reading the blue book..
I think the rest of the car should be fine just need a rear towing eye and some more mounts for my six point harness!! I mean who needs two crutch straps.. I don't know if I even have enough room inbetween my legs :crap:
Andrew Cooke
05-05-2009, 14:13
sounds like they're allowing anything to run in Sports Libra, originally you'd have had to conform to special saloon regs which specified that the engine and driven wheels remain at the same end as the original vehicle.
Did you get to speak to a scruitineer? Can you get your car checked over before the first event?
Note that there are 2 breeds of scruitineer, the normal ones are just checking the safety stuff, eligibility scruitineers will check whether or not your car conforms to the regulations, you normally only get to see them after a protest.
Did you get to speak to a scruitineer? Can you get your car checked over before the first event?
The way it's come across is that sports libre seems to be used as a catch all for anything that doesn't fit into any other category..
I have the name of a scrutineer local to me who I think I'll give a call to just before once it's road worthy.. with it being road legal apparently helps ease the regulations a little :agree: but we'll see :)
Andrew Cooke
05-05-2009, 18:15
do it if you can, the first meeting is stressful enough, if the car has been looked at once it gives you a bit more of a comfortable feeling. Be aware that scruitineers are always dreaming up new things to fail you on, so passing once is no guarantee that you'll ever pass again.
do it if you can, the first meeting is stressful enough, if the car has been looked at once it gives you a bit more of a comfortable feeling. Be aware that scruitineers are always dreaming up new things to fail you on, so passing once is no guarantee that you'll ever pass again.
Thanks, I'll take that advice :)
quick update, I've practicly finished the wiring and thanks to some of the previous posts the plumbing is now correct too :)
I thought I'd hook the ECU up and hey presto it works, it even comunicates with my computer especially now I have the correct comms lead :ashamed: ...it reads the sensors and gives reasonable readings.. I even cranked the engine but forgot to see if the TDC was giving a reading.. ahh well I'll save that excitment for tomorrow night!
All I need now is my fuel tank to arrive I should be able to start it! ..Although I can see myself using something make shift if it doesn't arrive soon :scared:
I ordered some aluminum (www.metals4u.co.uk) today aswell to start making some sort of cover for the engine to give me a bit more protection in the event of a fire :eek:
TURBO'D CLIO
05-05-2009, 23:51
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=344&pictureid=3278
you can see it just behind the tps!
Now that is a Phat engine bay.. :agree:
after realising my ecu gave a switched earth for my fuel pump not a live feed I finally thought I had it cracked until the battery died on me.. how long does it take to get a 12v back up to speed on a fast charger?
also can anyone tell me which is neg and pos on the fuel pump.. green and black/green I'm not sure which is which!?!
...it's so close to starting I can taste it!!!
it just fired up !! wahoo!! it was a bit groggy and quite noisey so I decided to save the neighbours and try again tomorrow.. 'm hoping it just needs clearing through otherwise it's time to get busy with the maps which I haven't the foggist about if I'm honest :)
it just fired up !! wahoo!! it was a bit groggy and quite noisey so I decided to save the neighbours and try again tomorrow.. 'm hoping it just needs clearing through otherwise it's time to get busy with the maps which I haven't the foggist about if I'm honest :)
Top darts matey. Can I ask does your engine soundy tappety? Or is it just mine LOL
TURBO'D CLIO
07-05-2009, 07:22
Top darts matey. Can I ask does your engine soundy tappety? Or is it just mine LOL
I work in a garage which is part of the good garage scheeme, we use forte engine flush's in out oil changes.
You add it to to the and run it till it's warm, the drain it out and fill with fresh oil and filter. It clears tappets out as well as a ton of other stuff it works wonders, if you have sticky tappets then let me know cus a can of this b4 u drop oil will clear tappet noise..
Rob
Top darts matey. Can I ask does your engine soundy tappety? Or is it just mine LOL
Didn't really leave it long enough to notice.. it was just loud :) I think I may need to add another silencer or replace the Porsche one for something else :(
Got to wait until this evening now to try and get to to idle...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Image0063.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Image0061.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Image0062.jpg
Nice one, if you need a map give me a shout I might be able to help out with an old one from when mine was running NA!
yes please - I really could do with a map.. I've only got one for a standard 172 with GSXR throttle bodies :scared:
Are all maps the same from ecu to ecu?
Mmmm nice and shiny fuel tank and two rather long pieces of aluminum to cover up my engine.. all that work putting there and now I'm covering it up :rolleyes:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3318/3512245785_c19259dc35.jpg
phase i 16 v turbo
08-05-2009, 16:22
Has the fuel tank got a swirl pot in it beofre you fit it?
Nahh, not really need due to the size the base is only 160mm x 320mm and I positioned the outlet at the rear so under acceleration the fuel will be in the right place..
Also I don't think I'll ever run it that low as I haven't got a fuel sender :)
phase i 16 v turbo
08-05-2009, 16:40
I had problems with the fuel supply when cornering hard, have you packed it with fuel cell foam? Might be worth it.
Andrew Cooke
08-05-2009, 18:28
I had problems with the fuel supply when cornering hard, have you packed it with fuel cell foam? Might be worth it.
fuel cell foam does nothing to help with surge
I ran a jerry can before with the same dimensions so it should be fine :) you only tend to get surge when running a rectangular flatter type of tank.. like a caterham style..
like this..
http://www.andywiltshire.com/images/Caterham%20carb%20tank%201.JPG
what ecu are you using? can i download the software so i an have a look if i can convert the map over?
yep its http://www.emeraldm3d.com/setupv11r7.exe
the .fig files are quite straight forward text fles here's the one I'm using at the moment
http://k80rum.co.uk/Documents/bx16v.fig
cheers
how do you scale the load sites?
how do you scale the load sites?
load site 15 = 100% throttle open? 0 = throttle closed - is that what you mean
right so its TPS as main load?
Can't help then mate as mines running Map as main load!
right so its TPS as main load?
Can't help then mate as mines running Map as main load!
Yeah.. ahh well thanks for trying :agree: I'll soldier on with the bx map! :)
ahh i've found the original map which was TPS as main load :)
I'll see if i can input it into the emerald one.
Uploaded it in your technical files mate Here
(http://www.rtoc.org/files/index.php?path=Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Warren%27s%20stuff/)
http://www.rtoc.org/files/index.php?path=Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Warren%27s%20stuff/
Uploaded it in your technical files mate Here
(http://www.rtoc.org/files/index.php?path=Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Warren%27s%20stuff/)
http://www.rtoc.org/files/index.php?path=Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Warren%27s%20stuff/
Thanks for this Ashy, I'll give it a go this weekend! and let you know how it went :)
no problem, I've had to re-scale the injection values to try and get it as cloes to mine as possible. My table is in milli secs so have had to convert it. Hope it works :)
todays work.. building the frame for the firewall and engine cover.. I have the templates for the covers just need to cut out the aluminium :scared: not sure how yet I've only got a pair of tin snips :smashpc:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3372/3515696835_1d430a0706.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3299/3515695997_da353471c2.jpg
I still need to block up the old exhaust exit :)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3516506594_0104ef1c88.jpg
A bit more progress this morning, my roll cage bar has arrived now I can weld it to my cage to hang the belts off it!! also my seat borrowed from a friend and I've finished the template for the rear engine cover and have cut the side aluminium bits.. hopefully I'll get chance to cut the middle bit and start fixing it all in place tonight.
My fuel pump mount broke aswell as I was trying to fit the tank.. I think the rubber has just corroded so I need to get hold of another..
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2272/3530944446_6954da9133.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2324/3530944734_4ec4ca0394.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3530944098_091a938bfd.jpg
A bit more progress this morning, my roll cage bar has arrived now I can weld it to my cage to hang the belts off it!! also my seat borrowed from a friend and I've finished the template for the rear engine cover and have cut the side aluminium bits.. hopefully I'll get chance to cut the middle bit and start fixing it all in place tonight.
My fuel pump mount broke aswell as I was trying to fit the tank.. I think the rubber has just corroded so I need to get hold of another..
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2272/3530944446_6954da9133.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2324/3530944734_4ec4ca0394.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3530944098_091a938bfd.jpg
Bloody work computer won't allow me to see the pics going to have to wait til I get home:crap:
TURBO'D CLIO
14-05-2009, 17:38
Looks very nice mate, that cover will look awsome when it's done in alloy... Love the way the cage sits aswell..
Can't wait to see the finished item, good work mate :agree:
errrm missed quite a bit out will fill in after pod but MOT day tomorrow wish me luck :)
Rob@Backyardracing
27-05-2009, 22:14
Is that a 996 silencer i see...:)
Rob@Backyardracing
27-05-2009, 22:17
Wups allready been said... :ashamed: i should have read....
Is that a 996 silencer i see...:)
well spotted though :agree: finding it a tad noisey may have to swap for an MR2 job :) we'll see when it runs a little smoother
update: didn't make it to the mot station.. it ran too rough although I could have hobbled there didn't want to risk it and when I popped the boot my battery cable was starting to melt under the heat :( need to sort more ventilation I think..
then I came home to put the lambda sensor in for tuning at rtoc pod day and the bung wouldn't come out and didn't have a nother boss so had to abort pod :cry: which was a shame as I had the van and trailer sorted.. guess Mallory will be the next mile stone :)
still slogging on with this.. I've changed the silencer for one off an Elise and I'm just waiting for the pipework to be finished (only a short bit but needs a real tight 180 section) and a freaking lambda sensor bung - which will be third time lucky!
As you can see with the pictures because I have boxed the engine in I needed to get the hot air out somehow hence the meshing.. it's a little rough and ready but it's something I can always get a bodyshop to tidy up and a later date (like that will ever happen :) ).. The other picure shows the aluminum shelving all finished it's all but 1% sealed when the tailgate is closed (not scientific but close enough).
I'm also looking at fitting a side scoop, I've been reluctant up until now to keep it looking as standard as possible but in the interests of air flow I may have too.. :crap: probably looking for something off the v6 clio or mk1 mr2 not sure yet... idea's most welcome :agree:
Anyway here's a couple of pics
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/rearmeshed2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/rearmeshed1.jpg
ps.. the red bonnet pins were something that I had in the shed for about 5 years.. I would have chose silver if I had the choice :)
I'm liking it :agree:
Shame you can't keep the standard looks but the V6 air scoop will look good.
could you not use poly windows with some sort of ducting, forcing the hot air out off the mesh?:scratch:
Andrew Cooke
06-07-2009, 18:40
how about building a tunnel from the front grill through the centre of the car?
Seal off the rear from the passenger area . Reverse the rear quarter opening and pipe through the engine bay cover :agree:
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
06-07-2009, 19:59
Scoop under the car for cooling??
dickiegtt
06-07-2009, 21:16
This project is awesome, hats off to you, would love to hopefully see it one day and see it on track! As for vents and ducting i would like to keep the original looks for sure aswell and those are some great ideas, all i can say is that if you went the v6 sidepods route i would go for ph2 pods as they are squarer and would suit the squrer lines of the 5 more. Novice view- Is there anything that can be done with a discreet roof scoop? or ducting from modified ph1 arches or a old renault turbos side pods?
looking good mate, hope to see it at Mallory... Did it run on that map then?
thanks for the idea's.. I was originally thinking the underbody scoop.. but was put off by scooping to much dirt up.. might be interesting through a deepish puddle :) although I haven't ruled it out..
the tunnel from the from front I never would of thought of! maybe quite a bit of work but I'll have a good think about it :)
Perspex aka 6r4 style I do like would have worked better if I had sealed the passenger area off.. as I would have to find some moulded scoops that go into some pretty wide aluminum type tubing to feed through the engine cover (which has to be fireproof) I suppose chimmney lining could do it :scratch:
A bit more reseach I think and thanks Dickie for the tip on the ph2 side pods.. didn't know there was a difference although I may have to use my metal working skills as the cheapest I've seen a pair is around £100 non-originals :crap:
looking good mate, hope to see it at Mallory... Did it run on that map then?
I didn't get chance to feed it in.. I was such a mad panic the friday before rtoc ND.. I actually ran (limped) on a citreon bx 16v map (one of the stock maps already on the install disc) to try and get to the mot station..
The haven't turned the engine since :( once the lambda sensor is in place I'll be feeding it in as seeing how things look :agree: which may even be this weekend :)
how about some poly carbonate rear quarter windows with some groub-B like air inlet scoops, piped up with some big diamater ribbed tubing.
how about some poly carbonate rear quarter windows with some groub-B like air inlet scoops, piped up with some big diamater ribbed tubing.
The difficulty is that they need to be fireproof (well resistant) so my only option would be chimney liner which makes it difficult to direct the air where needed.
I was close going for the scoop underneath but as soon as I hit a bit of dust I imagine it'll re-coat the engine bay :disagree:
I think I might have to go for the lower side intake and hack the body work..:agree:
Not that I know much about turbocharged rear engine heat soaked Renaults but .......
Open up the rear quarter windows/scoops and either pipe through with some ducting to the engine bay or seal off the rear ,uncover the lump and put some slats in the rear screen .
Higher pressure air flowing over the top off the engine will 'suck' the hot bay air out :agree:
3082308330843085
crikey I'e relised that I'm quite behind on updates to this post, we the car has been mot'd but since I've added an additionl engine mount (orignial top clio mount) and upgraded to a wideband setup and adaptive mapping using the emerald k3 and techedge 2j1.
Also I've addressed the hidous bump steer well at least I think I have as at this point I haven't drove it but basically I've locked the hubs so they no longer turn as the suspension lowers and lifts here are a couple of pics..
Next up I've just got to finish the wiring and tidy a few bits up and then hopefully I'll be back on the road again
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/Sr3KbXmeFEI/AAAAAAAAAUU/8tnXSFXyFEw/s640/IMG_4009.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/Sr3KbV7n2UI/AAAAAAAAAUQ/g5hucqWXKRs/s640/IMG_4008.jpg
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/K3ZnfdN8jixqpFYqpDClbg?feat=directlinkhttp://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JpoH0W_TsIKSDb8xAgCosg?feat=directlink
looks awesome should be good! nice one :agree:
Well, I've just had it mapped at Emerald (http://www.emeraldm3d.com/) and I'm well impressed at 183bhp/160lbft :) and that's with a £5 air filter from ebay and an exhaust with a tight 180deg bend other than that standard.. anyway I have my first sprint at Curburough this Sunday so I'll finally get chance to use it :agree:
here's the print out
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/RR_183BHP.jpg?t=1254994774
Adey aka Ewok
08-10-2009, 11:32
dont seem to be reving it very high acording to that printout?
I suppose not, but the engine certainly feels like it want to change gear at 6.5 :)
Adey aka Ewok
08-10-2009, 11:56
you might want that little bit extra just for coming out of corners and such, i think stock is 7200 mine was set to 7500:agree:
I'll have another look, as I haven't really had chance to give it a good run yet.. and possible top my gearbox oil up first :) do you know what I need to get for the r5 box as I could pick some up at lunch
Chris Hebden
08-10-2009, 14:42
75-90w i think it is
Well, I've just had it mapped at Emerald (http://www.emeraldm3d.com/) and I'm well impressed at 183bhp/160lbft :) and that's with a £5 air filter from ebay and an exhaust with a tight 180deg bend other than that standard.. anyway I have my first sprint at Curburough this Sunday so I'll finally get chance to use it :agree:
here's the print out
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/RR_183BHP.jpg?t=1254994774
Looking good, Dave doesn't map an engine very far after the power starts to drop off unless you ask him to, but he does know his **** when comes to mapping.
Your bhp and torque curves are abit weird though, did Dave say why he thought they were so hilly?
Adey aka Ewok
08-10-2009, 19:23
thats normal for that engine, somthing to do with cam timing and inlet length
Your bhp and torque curves are abit weird though, did Dave say why he thought they were so hilly?
I thought that, but he didn't mention them, and Ewok has put my mind at rest.. I have to admit I can't feel it on the road.
One thing it could be is that I use a ribbed 70cm pipe from the throttle body to the air filter.. but I'm a little reluctant to change anything now it's working.. I think my next steps are to remove weight from wherever I can to improve power to weight :)
Your bhp and torque curves are abit weird though, did Dave say why he thought they were so hilly?
He didn't mention it, I think what ewok said makes sense and puts my mind at rest.
Although I do use a 70cm ribbed pipe :eek: between my throttle body and air filter which may contribute to turbulance but now it's working and giving good power I think I'll just stick to removing weight for perforamance gains :)
here's a pic
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/OnRollingRoad.jpg?t=1255077868
Adey aka Ewok
09-10-2009, 12:04
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=577&d=1228046798
here you go, this 3 different runs at different levels of tune on the old 172 the dark blue line is probably closest to your tune, thanks again for andy cooke who overlaid all the info on to one sheet. all of them seem to deliver the torque like this, its just what the engine does:agree:
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
fook me man that is some project you under took there....how was the engine mounted and was the hubs based on clio or r5 set up??
awesome matey
Just got back from my first sprint event (curborough (http://www.curborough.co.uk/)), I managed a 38.56 sec time as my best it's hard to compare against but I think I should be aiming for a 35sec as a goal.. I think a set of slicks may help as I was struggling to get the power down off the start and out of a couple of 2nd gear corners :)
Maxwell.. Thanks for the comments, the hubs are based on standard Renault 5 GT but with a mod I found kit car builders using to take out the bump steer, I basically copied their idea (http://www.kitcarmag.com/howto/pontiac_fiero_rear_bumpsteer_kit/index.html) and it's worked a treat, as for mounting the engine that sits on the original subframe but with additional engine mounts.. especially now I have the Clio engine in. I have quite a few details of the original built at my web site www.gomodit.co.uk (http://www.rtoc.org/boards/www.gomodit.co.uk) .
Big Steve - Raider
12-10-2009, 10:27
Dave sure does know his SH1T doesn't he?!
He mapped my VAG Clio a couple of years ago & I was very chuffed with him & his work!!
Nice guy to boot too!! :niceone:
Dave sure does know his SH1T doesn't he?!
He mapped my VAG Clio a couple of years ago & I was very chuffed with him & his work!!
Nice guy to boot too!! :niceone:
Yeah totally agree, I was made to feel very welcome.. and he diagnosed my car problems straight away.. I probably would have been figuring them out until next year :)
Matt Cole
12-10-2009, 13:05
Yeah totally agree, I was made to feel very welcome.. and he diagnosed my car problems straight away.. I probably would have been figuring them out until next year :)
Was he impressed with it?? I take it there will be a small article in PPC mag??
I'm not sure he took a few pictures.. He did seem quite intriquied with what I'd done.. although not as much as one of the other guys working there.. he was helping a customer build a turbo/supercharged 5 with a rear engine.. sounds like there is being serious money spent.. he was saying the owner wants 400+ HP not sure what he's going to do with that much but hey :)
Andrew Cooke
12-10-2009, 17:54
Just got back from my first sprint event (curborough (http://www.curborough.co.uk/)), I managed a 38.56 sec time as my best it's hard to compare against but I think I should be aiming for a 35sec as a goal.. I think a set of slicks may help as I was struggling to get the power down off the start and out of a couple of 2nd gear corners :).
I'd be happy with that time first time out :) As I said in the other thread, Curborough is slippery, I get wheelspin most of the way around, to the extent that adding 50hp only gained me 1mph on the straight (compared to 14mph extra that I found at the pod). Finish speed was 101mph last time out :) At Shelsley that same hike in power upped my finish speed from 93 to 101, and that was in the damp.
Also, if it's raining be very careful stopping over the line, I had so much trouble stopping a few years ago that the highest lateral acceleration I saw on the run was in the right hander after the finish - I was looking for soft spots in the hedge. If it's raining I back off on the straight, and brake as I'm going through the finish.
Also, if it's raining be very careful stopping over the line, I had so much trouble stopping a few years ago that the highest lateral acceleration I saw on the run was in the right hander after the finish - I was looking for soft spots in the hedge. If it's raining I back off on the straight, and brake as I'm going through the finish.
Tell me about it :) I ran out of space and had to go up the start straight for two cones be for I ducked back in to the exit lane :eek: I really thought I was heading for the grass.. the dry wasn't so scary
Finally got round to posting some pics of my first event (and last of the year :) )
Click here for the slideshow (saves clicking them individually) (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?albumview=slideshow) :agree:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1087.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1087.jpg) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1100.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1100.jpg) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1142.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1142.jpg)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1147.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1147.jpg) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1159.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1159.jpg) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1235.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1235.jpg)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1310.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1310.jpg) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1352.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1352.jpg) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1364.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1364.jpg)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1386.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1386.jpg) http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/th_IMG_1392.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/Curborough%20Sprint/?action=view¤t=IMG_1392.jpg)
r5gt1986
05-11-2009, 10:08
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
wow, It's very nice to looking at this, I am waiting the movie 4, am glad to see the finish line at your intrusting project. Really good one "project of the year". :agree:
thanks very much :) ..I did get a bit of video footage but I was having trouble reading it on my machine (complaining about codecs :rolleyes: ) I'll see if I can get it on youtube or something over the weekend. :agree:
thanks very much :) ..I did get a bit of video footage but I was having trouble reading it on my machine (complaining about codecs :rolleyes: ) I'll see if I can get it on youtube or something over the weekend. :agree:
Fantastic read, and glad to hear all is going well matey, looking forward to seeing video footage.
r5gt1986
23-01-2010, 14:33
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
We're still waiting for a movie, if you have a problem raising the film send me mail at my address: higazi_a@yahoo.com. really interesting to see, in addition to bring more details about how the car behaves rounds so hard to control. </span>and how going with the gears stuck or not</span>
Just thought I'd put this vid in of my day at Curbourough, I've sure it was quicker than it looks.. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUcj-vraQuE
Just got my running order through for next weekends sprint at Curbourgh I'll be running in the sports libre class for my sins, being an odd ball car and it looks like I'm the only entry for that class.. oh well at least I'll be 1st in class :agree: and get some championship points..
The events on Sunday the 9th near Lichfield if anyone's passing.. here's the details http://www.curborough.co.uk/curbloc.htm
Car update:
After putting the standard seats and carpet back in for a bit of comfort, I'll be taking the seats back out again in favour of a single bucket for the event..
I haven't got around to sorting the gearbox yet so I think my starts are going to be hampered by gentle 1st to 2nd gear changes so my only goal is to get as close to my last time of 38.56 @ 86mph :agree:
Well.. my first event event didn't go too well.. I had two decent practice runs a 41.92 and a 40.74 not as good as my last visit of 38.56 and then on my first timed run about half way round disaster struck, the engine started clanging..:cry: I'm guessing its the bottom end bearings or something. I pootled across the finish line and exited the track and went for an early bath.. The bonus being I got a time so I was first in class being the only competitor in sports libre class :D
I think the cause was a tired engine as it's never been checked since I bought it second hand. However, once it's fixed I'll be fitting a proper rev counter and setting the rev limited as I don't fancy a repeat of this.
On the up side of things it gives me the opportunity to replace the cam belt and whilst I'm at it the gearbox too.
With a bit of luck I should have it sorted for my return trip to Curbourgh on June 19th :agree:
turbo time!!!!!:cool2::cool2::cool2:
Well I've had the engine checked and it's well and truly knackered.. main bearing, crank and a crack in the block just to put the icing on the cake :cry:
Does anyone know of any clio 172 or 182 engines knocking around (well preferably not knocking) or even just the bottom end?
I haven't got a full account over at cliosport.net so if any one that has could have a little sniff in their parts for sale section I would be most grateful :agree:
dangerous dave
26-05-2010, 17:06
full set up goes for strong money and people dont often split..
im sure a guy from cliosport said you could get a fully recon or new bottom end for under a grand.. im sure with some fishing you could get one for a fair price..:)
Complete engines (172 Ph2 and 182) usually go for around £350-450 over on CS, with most things included and in VGC....id just do that, swap your bits onto it and away you go.
Il keep an eye out over there and post up on here if anything comes up
cheers mate, that would be great :agree:
It's such a shame that the block has cracked otherwise you could of bought a laguna,vel satis etc... f4rt complete engine and built it up using the the F4R block the same as Andy. Even running the smaller turbo found on the 175bhp F4RT engine it would still make considerably more power than the 172 engine with a bit of ecu tweaking and obviously more torque to.
I'll keep my eyes peeled as well but as has already been mentioned they seem to be swapping hands for a reasonable amount at the moment. Obviously you could bite the bullet and buy a complete R26 engine and box, I know the space is to tight in the front for the F4RT+Box combo but surely in the boot it should fit?
i have a spare F4R block :) and a possible crank and rods :)
i have a spare F4R block :) and a possible crank and rods :)
Excellent.. I'll drop you a pm :agree:
Okay so I've moved house and finally have my own garage :niceone:
The engines out and currently being rebuilt, my gearbox is back from having it's 2nd gear syncro mesh and selector fork renewed :D
And whilst I have some downtime I've had the windscreen removed and am sorting out the rust.. well I say rust it turned out they were actually holes :(
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/TEWX3zHvU6I/AAAAAAAAAnI/nHNZfKJwOfA/holes.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/TEWX5otpeXI/AAAAAAAAAnM/ha_PzjSXFk0/holes1.jpg
But after the initial shock :cry: I decided to do a bit of grinding, wire brushing and hammer forming and rust treatment all last night ! I've also made up some little plates that hopefully I'll get round to welding this week.. :agree:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/TEWX7GYfCiI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/RA0c6ydQT4s/plates.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_O8F_tDzuhXI/TEWX8Qxh3RI/AAAAAAAAAnU/T9EwpuGms0w/plates1.jpg
great to see your project on the move again :agree::cool:
dickiegtt
20-07-2010, 22:18
great to see your project on the move again :agree::cool:
Here Here!:agree:
allanr5gtt
21-07-2010, 08:46
keep up the good work. :agree:
Matt Cole
21-07-2010, 12:33
I need to do this on mine. Keep us informed mate!:agree:
Andy,
Was the block and Crank ok??
Andy
It's been a while but I've finally got my engine sorted, so it's spurred me on to get the rest of the bits sorted.
The windscreen surround is now finished, ready for a new screen (to be booked in) I've found a local place that will supply and fit a plain screen (no tint) for £65 which doesn't seem to bad!
The welding of the holes was a little tricky with it being so thin on the endge of the rust I ended up making bigger holes but after a bit of building and a bit more grinding I got quite a flat surface to fill onto. I sanded and filled about three times and primed and sanded another three and then gave it a few coates of halfords top coat. The colour does seem a shade dark from the can than my original glacier white but not too noticable and I'm overall quite pleased with the finish.. certainly a lot better than the rust finish I had previously :)
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/?action=view¤t=DSC00177.jpghttp://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00177.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00176.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00178.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00179.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00222.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00223.jpg
Whilst doing the screen I've been piecing the engine back togeather and tidying the back of the car up a bit. In fact I think I shaved off about a kilo of excess metal that just wasn't required and it looks neater too. A fresh lick of paint has covered many unsighly marks from trying different exhaust configurations and cooling ideas..
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00217.jpg
I've also added this picture for reference as it's quite a good shot of my bump steer mod, which I think I've detailed earlier in the thread.. I've also painted these to get rid of the brown tinge that seems to have developed :agree: the red colour is just a reflection of the glove next to it.. it looks like the metals red hot (will it did to me :) )
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/DSC00219.jpg
Question time... looking at this graph where should I set my rev limiter? I was thinking 6700rpm
Any help appreciated as I don't want to spin anymore bearings :sos:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/172%20conversion/RR_183BHP.jpg?t=1254994774
Set the limiter the same as standard 172, hot limiter is 7250 iirc?
i think you were just unlucky, not knowing what the previous engine was like condition wise, i dont think 6700rpm was that high :scratch: im sure valver boys bounce there engines around 7000 rpm all the time, your engine should cope with that, scoff must be running same engine with a turbo and big boost, ok not for long periods of time but still alot of power put through the engine none the less , and he does'nt spin bearings that often:) keep it how it was :smokin:
glad to see your project on the move again:cool:
mine now runs but got a few teething probs still, oil leak being the main :cry:
Andrew Cooke
31-08-2010, 17:55
7500, that's where mine's set
mine now runs but got a few teething probs still, oil leak being the main :cry:
I do hate oil leaks! hopefully I should be up and running by the weekend (without an oil leak :) ) Do you have any more pics of yours now it's complete? and how did the MOT retest go?
7500, that's where mine's set
Do you use this engine for sprinitng? I might stick it at 7250 just to be on the safe side ;) I want it to last at least a season this time round :)
Andrew Cooke
01-09-2010, 13:05
Do you use this engine for sprinitng? I might stick it at 7250 just to be on the safe side ;) I want it to last at least a season this time round :)
Daily driver, I think the grp N limit was 7800, 7500 is just what fastchip use in their maps.
okay, I think for now I put my shift light on for 6500 the softcut limiter for 7250 and hard cut at 7500.. then look at raising it after a few events when I'm feeling a bit more confident :)
do you have a shift light on your sprint car?
I do hate oil leaks! hopefully I should be up and running by the weekend (without an oil leak :) ) Do you have any more pics of yours now it's complete? and how did the MOT retest go?
got sort out the brakes still ,as rear not working very well:( then a little play with crank pulley sizes,and leak ,then a re test , and all should be good:)
Andrew Cooke
01-09-2010, 17:50
do you have a shift light on your sprint car?
no, I change gear when I feel like it :)
no, I change gear when I feel like it :)
lol
A bit more work last night, I finally got round to converting the cup shock absorbers I bought from sam fish. I ground off the tack welds that attached my old standard shocks to the coilover conversion kits, these have served me well!
Next I trimed down the platform shown in the first photo and then welded the coilover conversion threads to the platform I bought these from Rally Design about 4 years ago and the threads are still good on them so quite impressed!
The only difference with the cup shocks is that they have oversized shafts I assume for strength, so I needed to enlarge the hole on the conversion tops to 32mm which wasn't difficult as they are made from soft aluminum.
After that it was just a matter of putting them back togeather, just need a windscreen on my car to go try them out.. Autowindscreens have let me down :(
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/Coilovers/cupcoiloverstrimmed.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/c7borg/Project_Reno/Coilovers/cupcoiloversdone.jpg
Question time... looking at this graph where should I set my rev limiter? I was thinking 6700rpm
Any help appreciated as I don't want to spin anymore bearings :sos:
Must be a common problem with these engines, thats what happend to mine at Pod.
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=1157&pictureid=12909
eek.. I hope you're block is okay :(
Chris mentioned you have to be really careful with contamination and use renault bearings...
Interesting yours has done the same though and I think it was the same bearing!
Just a quick update...:coffee:
The screen is in.. fitted for £80 by Nottingham Windscreens
I fired up the engine and was missing on cylinder 2..:badone: I naturally thought the worst and was thinking I would have to take the head off at best. but on a last ditch effort I thought I would swap the injectors over.. fortuantley and to some relief I saw the culprit a cracked connector on the injector and after swapping the injectors around it confirmed that was the fault..:cylon:
So a trip to Renault Derby.. which was quite funny as they were having a french day.. all dressed up in berets, black and white striped jumpers and garlic around their necks..:laugh:.. anyway I humoured them and asked ou a la parts department..
Back home with my new injector and £58 later the engine was running sweet!!! I've only done 10 miles so far just another 490 before the engines run in and I can put my foot down again :)
:burnrubber:
Result :niceone:
bah.. I was supposed to do an event tomorrow but the fuel pumps knackered!! :sad2:
Out of the f4r'ers & f4rt'ers what fuel pumps do you use as I'm on the look out for a replacment.. do 2.0 lagunas have external pumps? everything seems to have internal pumps these days...
I used a sapphire cosworth external pump with my f4r
cosworth pump it is then.. :)
I used a sapphire cosworth external pump with my f4r
Thats what I use too :)
What a ballache.. my head gasket has now gone!!
I think I might put it up for sale again as I just can't keep spending, just bought two buckets seats, re-done the rear suspension and bushes and it rewards me with a head gasket failure it's a shame as it still drives well just produces white smoke and I can see the mayo starting to form :cry:
I should have stuck with the CJ1 :sad2: anyone fancy a project?
Andrew Cooke
05-03-2011, 15:11
put it in the garage and pour yourself a cold one, it'll seem like a trifle in a couple of weeks.
Adey aka Ewok
05-03-2011, 17:01
any ideas why its gone?
I am guessing but it's either bad workmanship when it was put back togeather, or even a cheap head gasket. Basically I spun a bearing last year and bought another bottom end as my old one was cracked where the bearing went, the same as what happened to ashy!
Then I took it to an old friend who rebuilds engines (used to do them well when I was younger) anyway the only other thing I can think of is whether the head needed a skim.. either way it's all got to come apart again (after just 300miles!!) but I need to decided what to do.. i.e take it somewhere expensive and get it done with a reciept!! take it somewhere cheaper and hope they do it properly or just flog the whole thing or break it.. just not sure.. as Andy says maybe I just need to cool off :agree:
cool off :)
do something else for the weekend and come back to it in a week or so ;)
could always go down the turbo route:cool:
GARY GRWTURBO
10-03-2011, 10:24
I am guessing but it's either bad workmanship when it was put back togeather, or even a cheap head gasket. Basically I spun a bearing last year and bought another bottom end as my old one was cracked where the bearing went, the same as what happened to ashy!
Then I took it to an old friend who rebuilds engines (used to do them well when I was younger) anyway the only other thing I can think of is whether the head needed a skim.. either way it's all got to come apart again (after just 300miles!!) but I need to decided what to do.. i.e take it somewhere expensive and get it done with a reciept!! take it somewhere cheaper and hope they do it properly or just flog the whole thing or break it.. just not sure.. as Andy says maybe I just need to cool off :agree:
hi mate i will be interested in the car if its for sale
Andy is right, dont go giving up on it just because of a head gasket.
Why not consider a different engine, the f4r seems to have some issues and c1j as everyone knows isn't the most reliable lump, why not go f7p or f7r, it's a solid base that can produce some awesome power and without most of the f4r's weak points, namely the crank pulley has a woodrough key, there's no vvt to go wrong and unlike the f4r it doesn't seem to been designed on a budget
As you probbaly know, I put the car up for sale and it has now been sold to another club member. I'll let them tell you who :) but I'm sure it's gone to a good home :agree:
I've been a owner/member 8 years and it's been a pleasure being in the club but unless I get another five I probably won't renew.. so it's a kind of farewell but I'll always have an eye on the classified's :D
Thanks to all that have helped me in the past and all the best
Andrew.
Saw the car last night, definately a good job you done with that, such a shame that you didn't get as much out of it without all those troubles with the 172 engine. But speaking to the new owner sounds like he has a few plans ready for it.
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