smoke then no smoke then more smoke. please help.

[haizyr5gtt]

il start at the begining. i had the head gasket done on the car and it was a little bit smokey after that and i thought wel its just the oil in the exhaust n that from the smoke when i blew it but then found there was a pipe missing off my rocket cover and that was emitting alot of smoke, found the pipe and replaced it but now i have a bit of a situation.
when it idles its quite smokey but i pull off and its ok then when i decelerate it smokes a bit and when i change gear it smokes a bit but if im in 4th or 5th cruising along nicely it doesnt smoke until i slow down and put it in a lower gear at a round-a-bout or junction etc.

someone suggests my clutch plate but im not sure. any suggestions from u lot of great r5 fanatics?

[Nayls]

Turbo

[RICHIE]

il start at the begining. i had the head gasket done on the car and it was a little bit smokey after that and i thought wel its just the oil in the exhaust n that from the smoke when i blew it but then found there was a pipe missing off my rocket cover and that was emitting alot of smoke, found the pipe and replaced it but now i have a bit of a situation.
when it idles its quite smokey but i pull off and its ok then when i decelerate it smokes a bit and when i change gear it smokes a bit but if im in 4th or 5th cruising along nicely it doesnt smoke until i slow down and put it in a lower gear at a round-a-bout or junction etc.

someone suggests my clutch plate but im not sure. any suggestions from u lot of great r5 fanatics?

were is the smoke coming from is it from the gearbox area or out the exhaust

[jantheeven]

It has nothing to do with your clutch mate...

Assuming the smoke is blue, I had exactly the same thing... 2 things were at fault for my car:
1) the bottom piston ring for cylinder #4 (which prevents the oil from getting above the piston) was knackered
2) turbo oil return hose was too small (made it myself), so replaced it with an original Renault item

I should check the latter first... also check your entire breather system and make sure it's clean and unrestricted

[RICHIE]

it sounds like the turbo but another possibility is youy may have damaged the piston rings when blowing the gasket

[jantheeven]

it sounds like the turbo but another possibility is youy may have damaged the piston rings when blowing the gasket

I don't think it's the turbo... I think it's the second possibility.
If it were the turbo, it would probably smoke all the time. I had exactly the same problem before my rebuild... :(

[RICHIE]

a compression check may help to determan if its a piston ring

[haizyr5gtt]

i think il be going with the piston ring theory as i can use the turbo and the smoke doesnt increase and i had someone look at the turbo and he said it was ok as there was only tiny bit of movement in the shaft but i will be due for a new in the future depending on how i drive it.

the smoke is coming from the exhaust not the gear box.



where can i get a compresion check done?

piston changing is a garage job isnt it? how much you think im looking at for that to be done?

[RICHIE]

i think il be going with the piston ring theory as i can use the turbo and the smoke doesnt increase and i had someone look at the turbo and he said it was ok as there was only tiny bit of movement in the shaft but i will be due for a new in the future depending on how i drive it.

the smoke is coming from the exhaust not the gear box.



where can i get a compresion check done?

piston changing is a garage job isnt it? how much you think im looking at for that to be done?

changing the piston or rings means head off job again and sump off. its a fairly easy job mate if your a little handy with spanners if unsure pm a member in your area see if there able to asist it would keep costs down aswell or buy a manual. if you look in the classifieds i have 4 brand new pistons with rings a pins.

[jantheeven]

i think il be going with the piston ring theory as i can use the turbo and the smoke doesnt increase and i had someone look at the turbo and he said it was ok as there was only tiny bit of movement in the shaft but i will be due for a new in the future depending on how i drive it.

the smoke is coming from the exhaust not the gear box.



where can i get a compresion check done?

piston changing is a garage job isnt it? how much you think im looking at for that to be done?

I did it myself, together with my good friend mister Haynes ;)
It's a crappy job, but you'll learn a lot about your C1J engine.
Drain the oil, remove the sump (which is a pain in the @rse), remove rocker cover and head, from the bottom of the car remove con rod bearing caps and finally pull pistons out of the liners...

[haizyr5gtt]

u lost me at the rod bearings.lol. and i dont think there is any local members to me plus i only have a drive and no garage so that would be a slight problem for leaving parts out over night if it isnt completed in one day.

[jantheeven]

u lost me at the rod bearings.lol. and i dont think there is any local members to me plus i only have a drive and no garage so that would be a slight problem for leaving parts out over night if it isnt completed in one day.

Yeah that is kind of a problem :wasntme:
Pretty expensive though to have it done by a garage I'm afraid.
First do a compression test :agree:

[RICHIE]

u lost me at the rod bearings.lol. and i dont think there is any local members to me plus i only have a drive and no garage so that would be a slight problem for leaving parts out over night if it isnt completed in one day.

a drive is plenty of space mate nice set of axel stand or ramps no need to leave any parts out over night as said do a compression test the kit can be bought from places like halfords ebay ect

[haizyr5gtt]

aw right i didnt no that. how much are they 2 buy then?

[Andrew Cooke]

are you saying that this is exactly as it was before you replaced the head gasket?

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2069

[haizyr5gtt]

is this what i need??????

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_19 9553_langId_-1_categoryId_165557

[jantheeven]

is this what i need??????

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_19 9553_langId_-1_categoryId_165557

yes...

remove all spark plugs and take king lead off... screw the comp tester in one of the spark plug holes and then have someone start the car with full throttle

[haizyr5gtt]

are you saying that this is exactly as it was before you replaced the head gasket?

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2069


no it wasnt smoking before the gasket went

[jantheeven]

no it wasnt smoking before the gasket went

:sad2:

[Ashy]

One way to check the rings would be to fire the car up and let i idle, whilst its ticking over and smoking take the oil filler cap off the rocker cover and see if the smoke reduces! Also with the cap off put the palm of your hand over the rocker cover and see how much pressure there is...

[Andrew Cooke]

no it wasnt smoking before the gasket went

did the gasket go, or did it develop the problem you now have? Did you sacrifice your gasket to the God of Speed for no good reason?

http://www.realclassic.co.uk/bikepix/indian06022805.jpg

[haizyr5gtt]

lmao. the head gasket deffinatly went and yes i offered it to the god of speed for no reason whilst overtaking my mate in his vtr.lol. but now i regret it. i will get detailed pictures of gasket and damage to it if you want as i still have it.lol.

[haizyr5gtt]

is it ok 2 drive or advised not 2?

[RICHIE]

is it ok 2 drive or advised not 2?

is it worth the risk

[haizyr5gtt]

i dont know depends what the risk is and what could happen if i did.

[RICHIE]

i dont know depends what the risk is and what could happen if i did.

the risks are you could destroy the engine if its just a head failure you dont want it to be causing bottom end failure also ect the list is endless

[haizyr5gtt]

so probably best to leav it wher it is until i know what is wrong. yes.

[RICHIE]

so probably best to leav it wher it is until i know what is wrong. yes.

i would say so mate.

do a compression check.
check the shaft on the turbo for excess play
check under ther rocker cover for mayo
check your not loosing water
check the colour of the smoke

and report back

[haizyr5gtt]

will do 2moro wen i buy tha tester

[Ashy]

will do 2moro wen i buy tha tester


Check the oil filler cap trick too mate, will give you an idea if the rings have gone without buying a tester.

If your HG did actually fail when overtaking your mate maybe theres a fueling issue, have you recently increased the boost?

[haizyr5gtt]

nope i didnt i only had the car for 6 hours before it went and it cut out about 5 minits after i overtook my mate. il buy a tester anyway just to be certain. what sort of pressure am i going to be looking for????

[RICHIE]

nope i didnt i only had the car for 6 hours before it went and it cut out about 5 minits after i overtook my mate. il buy a tester anyway just to be certain. what sort of pressure am i going to be looking for????


around 150 depending on your compression ratio but your looking for a consistancy throughout the four cylinders mate ie 150 153 151 110 would indicate a possible problem on the cylinder that says 110 if you get what i mean

[haizyr5gtt]

yeah i get what you mean. i dont even know how to use that tester but i will find out when i read the instructions.lol. hopefully it will show me something is wrong so i know what needs doing.

[RICHIE]

yeah i get what you mean. i dont even know how to use that tester but i will find out when i read the instructions.lol. hopefully it will show me something is wrong so i know what needs doing.

lets just hope its the gasket nice and cheap job

[haizyr5gtt]

wel it shouldnt be as i just had that done 4 days ago. and i doubt il be able to skim the head again.

[jantheeven]

Well... this has also been mentioned to death in your previous thread regarding the blown gasket... you still didn't resolve the REASON why your head gasket blew in the first place. So now the head has to come off again... you should have done a comp test before you replaced the gasket mate...
Anyway, I hope you get it sorted soon... a 5GTT is made for driving! ;)

[Maka]

valve stem seals ok?

[haizyr5gtt]

im not sure mate im not very knowledgable when it comes to mechanics. does anyone know anyone that is sort of local to me with great knowledge and trustworthy to let loose on my 5 near newport in south wales that would be willing to come and have a look and give me a hand.

[jesus in the seat of a 5]

im not sure mate im not very knowledgable when it comes to mechanics. does anyone know anyone that is sort of local to me with great knowledge and trustworthy to let loose on my 5 near newport in south wales that would be willing to come and have a look and give me a hand.

This man is a lovely chap and is very knowledgeable, he may be able to help you..:)....Schakal...pm him..

[Trevhib]

im not sure mate im not very knowledgable when it comes to mechanics.

No but you're learning quick at the moment :) Keep going, you'll get it sorted. Where are the results of the comp test?...

[jonh]

First post!

it will be the turbo seals. when the turbo is old and running hot they can melt the seals which hold the oil which lubricates the bearings .. its a new turbo job:rolleyes:

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Just reading through the thread mate and its sounds to me like the turbo is at fault here too but to be sure do the checks that a few of people here have mentioned.

Check for pressure from the rocker cover and do a compression check, when the person checked the turbo and found abit of play in it which direction was the play? If the oil and water mixed when the headgasket went that could have done some damage to the turbo.

[RICHIE]

First post!

it will be the turbo seals. when the turbo is old and running hot they can melt the seals which hold the oil which lubricates the bearings .. its a new turbo job:rolleyes:


but he said it never smoked untill he had the head done so is a possibility its not the turbo

[Markey Mark (BD)]

but he said it never smoked untill he had the head done so is a possibility its not the turbo

It could be the turbo mate as some damage could of been done as a result of the headgasket going, its only a possibility so i would check everything else too.

[Trevhib]

I happen to agree. This sounds more like turbo and less like rings. IMO. Compression check first though.

Will be a better result if it's the turbo for sure :)

[haizyr5gtt]

well to be honest chaps i havent had much time to play but i am doing the compression checks tommorow so i wil get the results up. baring in mind one of the gaskets by the turbo does look like its had it. i will upload a picture tommorow when its light. its clear to see because its sort of bubbled and white and slighlty perished. i noticed this yesturday. will get a picture tommorow along with comp test results.

[bones660]

a drive is plenty of space mate nice set of axel stand or ramps no need to leave any parts out over night as said do a compression test the kit can be bought from places like halfords ebay ect


me to have no garage . only drive . done plenty engine rebuilds etc . easiest way , take engine out . go buy a engine stand .[ about 40 quid . ] . make room in your shed . strip and rebuild engine in the dry . refit into car . drive away . job done .

sounds easy . and it is . but more importantly you will save yourself alot of money . most garages nowadays will send your engine away to be rebuilt by an engineering company . then you are looking at a £1000.00 pound . when i started working as a trainee mechanic . my first involved job was engine out of an astra . sent away for rebuild .
that was back in 1993 . that cost her £780.00 . back then . so with todays prices .

give it a go yourself . :coffee::coffee::coffee:

[bones660]

it could be oil just burning of inside your exhaust . if the headgasket went while you were giving it some heavy right foot . depending where the gasket blew . ie water way or oil way . if it were an oil way that blew then you will most definatly have oil in your exhaust . this will take time to burn off .

on tick over does it overheat . if not . take for a short drive and see if it overheats .
as someone said . stem seals is a possibility as well . were these changed with the headgasket . let us know . :coffee:http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=G1SFYCD0ESGJWCSTHZOCFEY?_dync harset=UTF-8&fh_search=compression+tester&searchbutton.x=0&searchbutton.y=0&searchbutton=submit#

[haizyr5gtt]

i oredy got a draper comp tester but thanks for the link. im about 2 go out and do it now. no it wont overheat because the fan is wired to my ignition so its running permanantly because the dick i bought it off took the thermostat out n wired the fan to the ignition. and im not sure if he did the stem seals.

will return with the pic of that seal and comp test results.

[Adam L]

First post!

it will be the turbo seals. when the turbo is old and running hot they can melt the seals which hold the oil which lubricates the bearings .. its a new turbo job:rolleyes:


They never melt seals... Not sure who fed you that pony info.

[haizyr5gtt]

well heres 1 thing that could be a problem. what do you think? will do comp test after bacon sandwich.lol.

[Markey Mark (BD)]

That just looks like a worn gasket mate, wouldn't cause the smoking at all just a horrible noise if it has gone.

[Adam L]

That's only exhaust paste, you shouldn't really use it there though...

[bones660]

well heres 1 thing that could be a problem. what do you think? will do comp test after bacon sandwich.lol.
what we looking at . :confused:

[Markey Mark (BD)]

That's only exhaust paste, you shouldn't really use it there though...

Yeah your right there mate, thought it looked like a gasket (pic's not that big)

Deffinately not recommened using exhaust paste that side of the turbo

[haizyr5gtt]

i dint put it ther it bin ther since i had it. comp test dint happen. car wouldnt start is too cold so battry is on charge now as i killed it.lol

[EDM]

Have you tried unbolting the exhaust from the turbo elbow and starting the car, may sound like a tractor, but if its smoking from here you will know its definately not oil burning off in the exhaust.:)

[haizyr5gtt]

didnt think of that one. will give it a go when i do everything else aswel.lol

[Kris M]

I had a rather funny surprise today, started driving along in the 5, suddenly realised i was trailing Huge plooms of smoke behind me !

Got back home, after abit of investigating it turned out that there was condensation in the PMT catch tank which had frozen, this then froze / blocked the breather pipe, the pressure build up forced oil into my exhaust, hence the smoke :)

[Nick k]

I happen to agree. This sounds more like turbo and less like rings. IMO. Compression check first though.

Will be a better result if it's the turbo for sure :)

I'll second that. Seals have failed in turbo. Pipe disconnected off the breather system is a classic fix to stop the turbo smoking at idle. If you are getting the "james bond smoke screen" also when you back off' turbo again. If the rings were buggered it would smoke all the time, period. hold the rev's at 2000rpm for a minute or so and i bet you get no smoke from it. Drop to idle, give it 10 seconds and it will smoke. Try that before you take it too bits for no reason ;)

[haizyr5gtt]

well i am back after my time away i have some news. the raider was in a bad shape, the compresion test resulted as follows, cylinder 1)100psi 2)150psi 3)130psi 4)40psi.

also done the oil cap test and yes when i removed it the smoke almost completly stopped.

its going off for a bottom end recondition this weekend down cgb motorsport in trelford.

[RICHIE]

well i am back after my time away i have some news. the raider was in a bad shape, the compresion test resulted as follows, cylinder 1)100psi 2)150psi 3)130psi 4)40psi.

also done the oil cap test and yes when i removed it the smoke almost completly stopped.

its going off for a bottom end recondition this weekend down cgb motorsport in trelford.

so is it the bottom end thats failed what did the gasket look like have you kept it you got pics. are you sure its not a bad head you have yourself there. im not convinced its bottom end just yet

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Sounds to me like the piston/rings are knackered on the piston with 40psi in it, its also giving a slight hint as to why the headgasket could of gone too.

[RICHIE]

Sounds to me like the piston/rings are knackered on the piston with 40psi in it, its also giving a slight hint as to why the headgasket could of gone too.

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2069

after reading this mate i would be inclined to say its top end not bottom

[Markey Mark (BD)]

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2069

after reading this mate i would be inclined to say its top end not bottom

But his original problem was smoking, remember your old engine and what we found with it.

Looking at that thread thats alot of money for another bottom end, is that fitted too or just supplied as i didn't see it on there. Lot of money either way.

[RICHIE]

But his original problem was smoking, remember your old engine and what we found with it.

Looking at that thread thats alot of money for another bottom end, is that fitted too or just supplied as i didn't see it on there. Lot of money either way.

i have discussed with him whipping the head of getting that checked and poppin the pistons out and having a look he says it was only rebuild 450 miles ago so we should soon see if this the case

[haizyr5gtt]

well im looking into a few things and prices. have been offered an engine for £150, its been in rear end smash.

few companies offering me diffrent things

evry option i have looked into at the moment has come out under £500

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Its best to take it apart and see what has gone wrong, doesn't matter how many miles its done doesn't stop things going wrong especially when the headgasket has gone. Once its apart you might find out it to be something very obvious or simple, if is a piston it isn't to bad to swap over and get it back up and running.

Under £500 mate is alot better, sometimes using an engine you know is good can be the easiest and cheapest way of fixing it but depending what you find with yours first it might be easier to fix yours.;)

[Nick k]

I would get the engine for £150 if its a runner!! Buy a head set/bottom end set. Change the head gasket, manifold gasket, valve seals and re-seat the valves, timing change and tensioner,oil pump refurb kit etc on it why it is out, check the shells out and end float, slap it back all together and jobs a good one. I did mine in little over a week start to finish. Yea its very labour intensive but it will cost about you about £250 max to do yourself and everything thats going to fail in the next few years in the engine department is done. and the main thing is piece of mind.....

You then have yourself a good reliable engine. swap them over and then you can take the other original engine apart in your leisure and see whats up with it.

I did mine a week before national day at mallory last year. battered it around the track for 5 hours, good as gold. :D

Been down this path before with your type of engine fault. cost alot of money to determine it was knackered anyway.

[Coops]

hope u get this sorted mate i feel you pain. after headgasket failed on mine, i replaced it along with sticking forged pistons in, all on my drive and frankly i did pikie it a bit, mobile rehone of the bores, jetwashed it out and didnt check any ring gaps or anything as i didnt know i was sposed to. my and mate slung the pistons in using our fingers as ring compressors:ashamed:

well after all that, ****er was smoking on idle straight out the rebuild, was bomber beforehand, no smoke at all. so i was thinkin gotta be rings, i buggered it, doh

everntual diagnosis was the turbo itself, somehow it had died just from being sat for 2 months, i mean it was obviously on its way out but weird how no smoke before rebuild then suddenly loads. i diagnosed by removing turbo from manifold and running engine, no smoke.

so replaced turbo only to then kill 2 clutches and a gearbox since:D

sorry to ramble but just thought i share my experiences on this annoying smoke tendancy after engine work, chin up man be worth it when its done!

[haizyr5gtt]

takes the piss a lil dun it.

[RICHIE]

well the car is now all fixed up and running and has a 12 month ticket.

i will list the problems to start

. piston 1 had half the piston missing were the rings sit
. piston 4 had cracked were the gudgeon pin sits
. piston 3 the gudgeon pin had slid out and scored the liner.
.all the big end bearings were melted due to very low oil pressure
.turbo had seized were it had been starved of oil.
.the head gasket that had been replaced wasnt torqued down correctly due to oil and water being in the thread holes.
.no spark due to the wiring loom being wired up wrong and being melted.

the car needed 3 things to get it through the mot little patch of rust on the subframe to be welded exhaust middle section bracket missing and brake bias valve needed some penetrating to free it up a little.

james keep the oil changes regular

[scratcher]

Richie, did you put up a photo of the piston? :eek: