View Full Version : R5 - 172 Turbo Project **Updated**
Fantastic, what was happening to the components to need this work?
Not sure really as it was all going on out of sight but things were moving, you could feel it through the wheel, i broke 3 engine mounts and the wheels kept moving back in the arch as the bushes through the wishbones moved.
I figured that if I was going to build new mounts then it was an opertunity to strengthen the subframe and wishbones at the same time. :cool:
Wow, good stuff, man your a handy guy :)
Who painted the subframe for you, very nice job? I used a place in the team valley for mine, did the whole lot for about £100 if my memory serves.
**** hot work Ashy :agree:
Just read this thread from start to finish- wowser! Have you had it on the rolling road yet?
Just read this thread from start to finish- wowser! Have you had it on the rolling road yet?
Quick update, big thanks to Scoff (EFI Parts) for spending all day Sunday mapping my car, what a top jobs he's done. Thanks mate.
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/The%20Rebuild%202010%20-%202011/001.jpg
She made 402bhp mate.
****ting hell. That's unreal. You're a talented man!
****ting hell. That's unreal. You're a talented man!
Thanks :)
Are you taking it to nationals? If you are I'll bring some tissues
Are you taking it to nationals? If you are I'll bring some tissues
Yeah Deffo mate :agree:
Did you do all the fabricateing mate?
Did you do all the fabricateing mate?
Yes :agree:
Yes :agree:
Very impressive :agree:
All coming together now, spent a few hours today tidying up the interior whilst I wait for the snow to melt so I can take her out for the first run of 2013.....
Dash
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/The%20Rebuild%202010%20-%202011/Interior/dash.jpg
New Seats...
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/The%20Rebuild%202010%20-%202011/Interior/seats.jpg
Ready to go.....
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/The%20Rebuild%202010%20-%202011/Interior/external.jpeg
Nial car is looking awesome so loving the new seats. What seats are they?
Nial car is looking awesome so loving the new seats. What seats are they?
They look like the clio 200 recaros, think new megane has same style as well
Do love how the dash looks in that car, great work there :agree:
Looking good as always mate fingers crossed you have a good year of happy safe boosting ahead. :agree:
Looking good as always mate fingers crossed you have a good year of happy safe boosting ahead. :agree:
Thanks mate, i've got everything crossed cos I haven't had too much luck over the years :eek:
They look like the clio 200 recaros, think new megane has same style as well
Do love how the dash looks in that car, great work there :agree:
They are the same but mine are from a Corsa VXR!
Having had a buchers in person at this car at scoffs rr day last year it really is minty mint! The seats and dash really take the car out of the 80's and into the present day, ohh and of course the engine/power output :cool:
really is a fantastic bit of work:agree:
Penfold aka The Dealer
25-02-2013, 08:18
Love the flockead dash... Something i have thought about for my 172.
Great work ashy :)
This thing is going to go like a rocket. Blown away by it tbh.
Good move on the wheels ash,looks stacks better :agree:
lovely car mate!!
are those power figures on stock cams?
Good move on the wheels ash,looks stacks better :agree:
Thanks Al, needed to go to 16's so I could fit 205's for more grip...
lovely car mate!!
are those power figures on stock cams?
Yes thats correct, std 172 cams, standard timing with no VVT.
This is a great project:agree:
Well done for all that hard work it's clearly paid off:agree:
Hope to see it in the flesh if your at national day:)
Candidate for best 5 ever I reckon. :agree:
Candidate for best 5 ever I reckon. :agree:
:eek:
Thanks but that's a big claim!
i was just wondering, how much boost pressure does it run mate?
i was just wondering, how much boost pressure does it run mate?
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/The%20Rebuild%202010%20-%202011/002.jpg
21psi mate.
Ashy can I have intercourse with your car please
21psi mate.
have you done anything else to the engine?
how much difference do cams make on this set up?
are you running a t04e turbo?
the reason i ask ,and please dont take this the wrong way , but the f7p turbo lump in jp's made 370 bhp at 16.5psi, (t04b) and i would have thought the f4r being a bigger capacity, possibly better flowed head design, would have produced more:scratch:
have you done anything else to the engine?
how much difference do cams make on this set up?
are you running a t04e turbo?
the reason i ask ,and please dont take this the wrong way , but the f7p turbo lump in jp's made 370 bhp at 16.5psi, (t04b) and i would have thought the f4r being a bigger capacity, possibly better flowed head design, would have produced more:scratch:
The engine is fully forged but other than that and APR bolts etc its std cams, std head (phase 1) slight overbore. Turbo is a GT3071R... I guess it depends on lots of things but at the end of the day its just a RR figure.
i've been wondering that too but i guess it's everything together.
maybe he has a better manifold, he's using a uprated cam probably better timed in then the standard f4r's are.
isn't JP's head flowed too? down low you see the difference though, Ashy's produces more out of boost.
iirc Scoff mentioned JP's breaths really well...
is yours on standard cam timing Ashy?
Coley telt me have a look on here when I was talking the other day........i am amazed with the work you've done like fella.
Top class work.....take a bow :worship:
Sam Fish
21-03-2013, 07:48
Ashy can I have intercourse with your car please
:laugh: :)
Amazing car. Really like what you did to strengthen the wishbones :agree:
JP's was an unusual example, but most of that can be explained by his cams and other work. Overlay the 2 plots and Ashy will have more in the midrange. Peak HP figures are just that, a peak figure. It doesn't tell us what's happening the rest of the time.
Ashy's is typical of what should happen at 1.5 bar from a standard engine. A standard F7P would not have done that.
PS looking again at ashy's plot I'd say some inlet cam advance would help to bring midrange up a bit more and make peak HP a bit lower down. Maybe a good thing if it's predominantly a road and track car.
Matt Cole
21-03-2013, 13:57
Scoff,
Was going to pick your brains on the 225 vs 172 cams debate. Cant remeber what the spec of each is, but i have a set of both to choose from!:sad2:
JP's was an unusual example, but most of that can be explained by his cams and other work. Overlay the 2 plots and Ashy will have more in the midrange. Peak HP figures are just that, a peak figure. It doesn't tell us what's happening the rest of the time.
Ashy's is typical of what should happen at 1.5 bar from a standard engine. A standard F7P would not have done that.
true ,but cant help but think jp's inlet/exhaust cams are no where near correct,his inlet is retarded by a long way! he only set up to cam cover marks, and when i dialled exact same cam set up on mine some three weeks later using dti etc, using the same cam marks as reference, inlet was showing 138 atdc , dialed in four times, and got pretty much the same results,give or take 1 degree, alright there could be variations in the cam grinds etc, and his head could be different height to mine, but i could'nt help but think his graph was way to flat in ther middle because of this?
and not knocking ashy's fantastic build here , but i would have thought ashy's gt3071r should be a lot more effecient flow wise , than the chin chong to4b of jp's, and produce much better results everywhere on the map per psi, they are both using very similar inlet manifold setups /runner lengths? and free flowing exhaust set ups, jp's head is megane f7r port matched to inlet and flowed, would it be that far away from a f4r head in standard form in performance? just trying to gauge how much of a difference there would be between the newer f4 and the older f7 engines thats all, :scratch::)
just read your entire build thread again ashy, great build:cooter:
ps is the anti surge compressor needed on this set up?
Yes andy, all that retard in the inlet will flatten the middle and sometimes help hp at the top depending on what the overlap is like.
Think about it this way. A stock 172 makes between 164 abd 168hp on my dyno. Lets assume ashy's engine does the same without boost. Very cruedly speaking at 1.5 bar of boost we've got 2.5 times the air flow, so we get 2.5 times the power. 164 x 2.5 = 410hp. Of course nothing's 100% efficient like that so 400hp is exactly what I'd expect. You can't magic air flow out of thin air :)
In JP's case, to be able to make 370hp at 16psi we must be making in the order of 180hp without boost. Its more than I would have expected but not outside the realm of possibility. With the dyno we have the possibility of reading low if we're slipping wheels but absoloutely nothing that could ever make it read high, so something about his engine works very well :)
Not enough boost in either case to worry about an anti-surge shroud on those turbos.
Scoff,
Was going to pick your brains on the 225 vs 172 cams debate. Cant remeber what the spec of each is, but i have a set of both to choose from!:sad2:
Horses for corses matt, but if you're still planning on using that big turbo, you certainly don't want anything as poxy as a set of 225 cams :)
well, i'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or anything, or be ****tin on Ashy because the result is great in every way but:
there's a lad on cliosport who had a completely standard trophy, fitted rods, pistons and megane sparkplugs and a gt2871r on top.
this is the thread with result:
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?536356-TurboTrophy-update
he made 340lb/ft at 1.2bar and 374 peak hp. Ashy's powerband is obviously alot flatter/ smoother/ broader but this does show there could be had more torque/power with this boost level..
then again, it isn't rolled on the same rollers so there could be a difference in that ofcourse, i don't know how legit the RStuning rollers are??
for Matt:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/laine_16v/turbocams_zpse10316af.jpg
Tutuur, thats Steves car. It's a fantastic result from only 1.2 bar. I don't think we'd see that power on my dyno at 1.2 bar. 1.3 bar might do it. So it also depends on how accurate people are with their boost figures. It might have been 1.28 bar for example. That alone would just about explain it. Or maybe the average was 370hp and his dyno recorded a peak of 374. I always filter final results to show an avarage rather than a spurious spike. There's lots of explanations.
Ashy's power output was just fine and right where I'd expect it to be at 1.5 bar.
My memory also tells me we did that with 95 ron. Ashy will confirm. Another 10hp might have been possible with extra octane.
yes, Steve it is indeed.
however when you look in his thread you'll see you're right about the peak. it's only a peak of 374 where 500rpm earlier and later it's 'only' 360bhp.
ron 95 might explain a thing or 2 indeed. as mentioned before, the result is great in every way but improvement is always possible as you off the most would know :D
how much timing does 95 differ to 98 on the knock limit? i understand it's guessing but in your experience whats the trend?
PS looking again at ashy's plot I'd say some inlet cam advance would help to bring midrange up a bit more and make peak HP a bit lower down. Maybe a good thing if it's predominantly a road and track car.
I keep trying to persuade him to wire in the solenoid but hes having non of it.
It's an interesting comparison Ashy's vs my Trophy, when Scoff was mapping it I popped up for a catch up with both him and Ashy and I was shocked when it made exactly the same as mine did at 1 bar, we both made 340bhp ish. I've always been led to believe that the bigger the turbo the less boost required for more power :rolleyes: I must admit that the GT28 .86 housing flows exactly the same as the GT30 .63 housing so that could account for some of it but I honestly expected the 60mm turbine wheel and the tubular manifold to prove it's worth on Ashy's.
As it's all unfolding I probably should of just stuck with my logg mani and fitted a stronger box, admittedly Ashys seems to flow better at the top end as like Tutuur points out mine starts to drop off whilst Ashys was begging for more boost :D It makes me wonder about dyno tuning as Paul @ RStuning has built several megane forged lumps on GTX3071/76 and there all making 450bhp @ 1.5 bar which using Scoffs conversion would make it a 180 bhp N/a lump which is unlikely due to the lower comp.
Matt, Andrew Cooke had me looking at Evo cams (kelfords) and comparing things like where peak power came in, what rpm was needed, how crap lower rpm was and idling issues, overlap etc.... we both came to the same conclusion that what I'm using was the best compromie. I have a spare set you can use but, obviously I'm using VVT and your not so your limited on the inlet cam choice. I would probably get a 182/197 head.
Mine and Ashy's for easy comparison.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/SP33DFOUR/2B6FE97D-4057-4300-AE2D-458AD7ABCDF4-3772-000005BCC462ADD5_zps35c50f01.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/SP33DFOUR/Cars/Trophysep10.jpg
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but I honestly expected the 60mm turbine wheel and the tubular manifold to prove it's worth on Ashy's.
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Like I say steve, you can't magic up airflow from thin air :) At those power levels the smaller turbo in your case is still flowing adequate, so there is next to no advantage from ashy's larger turbine, etc. Raise the boost to 1.7 bar and it's a different story.
Compression ratio doesn't affect matters as much as you might think. For the rule of thumb to work we ignore the drop in power which might happen at NA because of the low CR.
More like 190hp at NA for those 225 engines if they're making 450hp at 1.5 bar. Nothing is 100% efficient :) I guess they have cams in them.
Yeah they have custom catcams to help them flow a bit better.
He recently did a rs250 forged with stock cams and a gtx28 turbo on a tubular manifold and it made 399bhp and 360lb/ft at 1.4 bar which I suppose is quite comparable with Ashy's power wise but shows that the slightly restrictive cams and smaller turbine wheel are helping the torque
That was the most we could get out of my set up, any more increase in boost just saw the EGT's and and Torque rising but no increase in BHP
Went for a drive tonight, pulling up a hill in third, full boost went for 4th, foot down then nothing, lost all drive.... :eek:
Managed to free wheel into a nearby industrial estate and pull over. Selected gears fine, no loud bang or noises, engine running sweet... Assumed the worst, diff / gearbox failure :cry:
A-framed her home, had a quick look underneath and found it had destroyed a CV joint on the passenger side :eek:
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/image.jpg
Funny how its killed the VW cv not the Gtt one!
Oh we'll least the engine doesn't need to come back out :agree:
Tony Walker
27-04-2013, 23:26
Impressive..... and annoying lol
ohh err..... surprised like you said the vw side let go:eek:
i dont think anybody else who is running this set up has broken the inner vw cv before the outer:scratch:
maybe its just bad luck that the drive shafts inner cv were worn/weakened before they were modded to fit the 5 :crap:
Impressive..... and annoying lol
Think that's hit the nail right on the head..........
Or maybe it's time to turn the boost down LOL :laugh:
Tony Walker
28-04-2013, 11:04
the bolts on the inner are quite common for backing off. maybe a couple of bolts came loose and bang. make sure the next ones are lock tighted.
the bolts on the inner are quite common for backing off. maybe a couple of bolts came loose and bang. make sure the next ones are lock tighted.
Yeah I've had that before on my old passat, however these had done less than 100 miles since putting the engine back in :crap:
Ash!
What injectors are you running? By the looks of it they are 630cc deka's?
I've been having trouble idling with them.
What are your pw's at idle? Or don't you have wari on your laptop yourself?
Cheers
Yes mate 630cc Siemens Deka Injectors, my idle is fine... Duno what the PW is at idle, I use a DTA ecu and the software is on my other laptop... I'll check at the weekend :)
Thanks mate! Everywhere i read people are having no problems with the 630cc's but i'm idling around 11:1 with 1.3ms which is about lowest it will go without going very unlinear.
hi mate,
did you have a look? i guess you're running sequential too btw?
cheers!
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Superb read Ashy!
What seats are they?
The new Bill J
03-11-2013, 21:31
What seats are they?
Post 268 ;)
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Sorry missed that!
Maybe i missed it but how did you seal up the oil channels in the cam?
I'm in the process of fitting 172 cams to a 225 engine so need to block the holes.
Matt Cole
19-04-2015, 18:40
He made some dowels and also blocked up the hole in the bolt.;)
How's the car mate, still going strong?
I'm in the process of building a 225 engine into my 197 and thought about this thread, convinced me into going big turbo instead of bodgering with an hybrid td04 shitcan
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