My engine rebuild [Archive]

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Nottswoody

06-01-2013, 14:29

Right so I have decided to make a start at rebuilding my other fun engine as if I don't do this now I will never learn :) my plan is too strip a bottom end I baught off dj and fit it with a Motorsport cam I bought off markymark simply strip the engine replace what's needed then rebuild as usuall.. With the head I got a unskimmed good head off my bud nick so I am also going to have a go at match porting the gasket blah blah I know you've all done this before but I personally have never done this.. So I would like your help from the start.. Lets see if I can do this :)

GTphil

06-01-2013, 14:38

Top darts for having a blast yourself:agree:

my number one tip would be to not cut any corners and do the best job your budget can allow, do it right do it once;)

I'm sure with help from rtoc you will be fine:)

robx1r

06-01-2013, 15:01

from my year long experiance buy everything and buy it in the one go,

so a rough list would be (my thoughts were its over 20 years old and i'f i'm going that far i may as well do it right)

oil level switch
oil pressure switch
sump gasket
crank oil seal
half moon seal
crank bearings
big end bearings
piston rings
piston liners
liner seals
head gasket
high tensile head bolts
waterpump gasket
endplate gasket
rocker cover gasket
valve seals (if your putting them in)
new binx nuts for intake and exhaust manifolds x12
waterpump
fan switch
water temp switch
a can of liquid gasket
2 boxes of latex gloves
loctite
sandwich bags and a black permenant marker
some beer

thats all i can remember off the top of my head oh and somewhere clean and well lit that wont be disturbed if you walk away from it

Nottswoody

06-01-2013, 16:23

That's quite a list it seems my novice ways have shown already I was going to reuse most of the above... Is all this available from mike?

JRP

06-01-2013, 17:34

That's quite a list it seems my novice ways have shown already I was going to reuse most of the above... Is all this available from mike?

Alot of the things on the list come in bottom/ top end sets

robx1r

06-01-2013, 19:48

yeah all can be got from him. i listed everything seperate but most of it comes in kits like a head set and bottom end set

Nottswoody

07-01-2013, 15:47

So what's the difference if I leave the valve seals out? I use mine daily will this not kick oil out?

Big Steve - Raider

07-01-2013, 15:49

So what's the difference if I leave the valve seals out? I use mine daily will this not kick oil out?

A puff of blue smoke on start up.

Nottswoody

07-01-2013, 15:51

A puff of blue smoke on start up.

So not all the time then as in change of gears? Or on run off? Also has anyone seen mike recently I want to order up a list of parts from him

Nottswoody

11-01-2013, 19:01

The Haynes is in my hand let the reading begin :) engine parts list ready from the man mike.. Just need time now..

Nottswoody

11-01-2013, 21:43

Right so I have read the Haynes and now realised I need more tools and measuring gear were would be best to buy a torque wrench feeler gauges? Might aswell buy some as I'm sure I will be building many more engines after this one

TopCat

11-01-2013, 21:51

Nottswoody

11-01-2013, 23:57

Halfords, euro car parts places like that. Probably cheaper from euros

:eek: £80 from halfords think I will search eBay unless I find anyone selling one?? Anyone hanging up there tools?

JRP

12-01-2013, 00:07

gttjames

12-01-2013, 00:49

yerp if your working on cars a decent torque wrench will be very usefull

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 12:40

Finnally get a day to start stripping the block down and it's frezzing all the mrs said as she was leaving was "NOT AGAIN" ha stuffed £50 in her hand and said go and treat your self she soon perked up.. This could get expensive.

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 14:33

Guys is there another way of getting the crankshaft pully Hun off? Or do I have to get a puller?

R5MJH

13-01-2013, 14:49

Guys is there another way of getting the crankshaft pully Hun off? Or do I have to get a puller?

sometimes using 2 chucky srewdrivers work one each side boss

robx1r

13-01-2013, 15:03

have you soaked it in wd40 or the like? i found with other things freshly boiled water can shock it loose if its being a right aunt

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 16:44

Right the block is in bits everything's off damage wise it looks like 3shells were badly scored but the crank is fine :) I guess that's what they are designed todo? Iv changed my mind as it would be rude not to get this chemically dipped. Anyone know we're I can get this done in Nottingham? Also looks like the rings in 2-4 were about shot but apart from that it all looks golden :yeah: so next step is clean parts buy the bits off mike and get cooking :)
So far I'm happy.. If I can take one apart anyone can.. The worrying part is putting it togeather :crap: I also noticed the standard cam had chunks out of it and the oil pump and sump had a lot of crap in there over the years..

chris

13-01-2013, 16:53

Well done woody whhat you guna do bout oil pump get new internals or clean up and messure

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 17:02

R5MJH

13-01-2013, 17:34

Clean up measure really got to buy some gauges tomorrow to have a look. Or I might just refurb it.. Seen them on eBay £129 :eek: not paying that lol I can see this costing me more and more already. I guess once you get started its hard to stop. Also got to get the liners homed or honed isit?

its worth checking and renew all while its apart mikes had everything new inc new oil vein for the oil pump no it wasnt a cheap rebuild but will be worth every penny in the long run

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 19:08

Iv just thought would it matter if I get the liners mixed up from the pistons? I'm reusing both but when I get the liners machined who's to say they won't mix em up?

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 21:15

:) has anyone dared put the block in the dishwasher lol she would kill me.. Found a place in nottingahm just up the road that will pressure wash the block is this better than a chemical dipper?

Mart

13-01-2013, 21:22

DIY at your local jet-wash :agree:

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 21:25

DIY at your local jet-wash :agree:

Never thought of that great stuff :agree: that's why I never thought of washing it myself top banana :ashamed:

clee

13-01-2013, 21:27

http://www.prostrip.co.uk/

But as Mart says jetwash ,elbow grease and care will be fine .Gunk it first before jetting

Nottswoody

13-01-2013, 21:30

http://www.lindleysautocentres.co.uk/machineshop there is this one in basford clee I will see what price it is.. But I can see me down at morrisons tomorrow first though.. As I'm like a ducks arse :)

clee

13-01-2013, 21:33

Piston/liners won't matter ...if it does then one or the other is fecked .They will only be de-glazed not honed as such .
I use these guys just down the road for all my machining bits
http://www.sep-kegworth.co.uk/

Nottswoody

14-01-2013, 23:58

Open to suggestions while the engines apart I'm aiming for the best time at pod I can get

Nottswoody

15-01-2013, 11:05

Guys can anyone tell me some info or results on ep Motorsport cams? I'm finding it hard to find any results out there.. Thanks has anyone used one of these before?

GTphil

15-01-2013, 13:50

I think you should ask Glenn how he got on with a run of the mill piper 285.....rather well it seems;) of course timing is all important, others have had good results with a Kent rt 200 also, I'm not saying the europarts one is pants because it will probably do a great job. Just food for thought:coffee:

Romil Davda

15-01-2013, 14:04

Going by Phil's latest post, can I assume the cam Paul has is a Kent RT200?

If so, use the Cam Wizard to work out what you want, if you can understand it that is! Kent RT200 and the piper 285 seem similar ;)

http://www.rtoc.org/cam/

GTphil

15-01-2013, 15:59

The turbo your planning on using should also be a consideration when it comes to choosing a camshaft;)

Nottswoody

15-01-2013, 16:26

The turbo your planning on using should also be a consideration when it comes to choosing a camshaft;)

T25 tomcat bud for now

Romil Davda

15-01-2013, 16:54

T25 tomcat bud for now

Paul, from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong) but your T25 needs a rebuild right?

Why dont you hold out for a T28? This will give you more power, if you dont mind the lag! If you want decent times for POD, then T28 is the way to go.

Get a decent blower and build your engine around this.

turbo ted

15-01-2013, 18:06

Paul, from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong) but your T25 needs a rebuild right?

Why dont you hold out for a T28? This will give you more power, if you dont mind the lag! If you want decent times for POD, then T28 is the way to go.

Get a decent blower and build your engine around this.
more lag = slower pod times romil
you need a t28 with no lag and thats a custom machined t2 exhaust housing

Romil Davda

15-01-2013, 18:36

more lag = slower pod times romil
you need a t28 with no lag and thats a custom machined t2 exhaust housing

Yeah, i'd listen to the experts!!! :cool:

I know Pauls next question will be how much? and where can he get this done? LOL

Nottswoody

15-01-2013, 18:56

So let me get this right iv bought a **** cam and a **** turbo lol great... Wasn't someone selling a t28 for £150?

Tony Walker

15-01-2013, 19:45

So let me get this right iv bought a **** cam and a **** turbo lol great... Wasn't someone selling a t28 for £150?

:laugh:

GTphil

15-01-2013, 19:47

Your turbo and cam are probably well matched, it will go well;) your not after 11 seconds or anything so what you have should give you 200 big ones if set up correctly with reasonable boost:agree:

teds on about almost a t2/t3 hybrid, it's a good size blower and his c1j went like stink with it as did bluntys, but it ain't cheap.

Slammed 66

15-01-2013, 19:47

If you ever decide to sell your cam woody let me know please. That would complete my EP engine

Ross

Markey Mark (BD)

15-01-2013, 19:57

Pauls cam isn't an KT200, its an EP cam. I finally found out where they were designed and came from in the end

Nottswoody

15-01-2013, 20:37

:laugh:

Or wa it £450 lol I'm sure I saw someone selling something not the vnt one it was something else..

Nottswoody

16-01-2013, 12:01

http://www.lindleysautocentres.co.uk/machineshop there is this one in basford clee I will see what price it is.. But I can see me down at morrisons tomorrow first though.. As I'm like a ducks arse :)

Taking my block today to get it washed and have the liners honed £45 not to bad really. Pick it up Friday hopefully order parts up off mike Monday :) want to start matching my head to gasket and have a go at self porting the head a little ant be that hard? Just keep it smooth and free flowing?

clee

16-01-2013, 12:51

Leave the head alone ...there is more to it than that and you are more likely to make it worse :D
Have a read here
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=13635
Just match inlet to head :coffee:

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 14:56

So I got my block back today it's cleaned and the liners honed.. Question there is now a lip say 5mm from the top is that ok? I'm guessing the piston top won't clear this? Never seen liners done before.. The guy was a **** really trying to tell me to come back Monday as no one was in the office to take my money but I said I'm taking my block its right there infront of you.. Think he was just cold.. So after a heated argument he said its £20 so I took my block got in the car and left.. Didn't bother telling him they quoted me £45 :)

GTphil

19-01-2013, 16:14

I always find it amusing when i first pop into somewhere like a machine shop and they talk to you like your a bit dim, sometimes when your all clean and look like you have never been under a bonnet in your life they just seem to be a bit off with you.

I'm a patient bloke and always end up on good terms but i can see why some people would get the hump:laugh:

You got a generous 50+% off there, always worth keeping them sweet tho, you never know what else you may need them to do, like the inside of the oil pump casing if it's all scored;)

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 16:20

I know bud I got the feeling he was pissed that te office staff had gone home and he was still there with the doors open fixing other people's cars.. To be honest bud it's a big place.. I'm going back to my old guy three generation engineer.. He actually had time to talk to you granted it was about minis but he did talk lol

So is the lip on the liners normal? They look fine but there is a lip

GTphil

19-01-2013, 16:27

what do you mean by a lip? Like one you can feel with your finger (:cooter:) or like a little bit at the top that hasn't been honed?

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 16:42

Yes bud about 5mm hasn't been done.. I just need it explained in idiot terms as its got me thinking if its now machined wider what will happen to the pistons as they haven't been touched they will just have new rings.. Never done this before :)

R5MJH

19-01-2013, 16:49

im pretty sure the rings wont hit the lip as the rings dont go to the very top of the bore even thou the piston does if the lips not that bad it shouldnt effect the rings

GTphil

19-01-2013, 16:50

It's the rings that go up and down the liner and the honing helps the rings seal and keep compression, the top ring on the piston is more than 5mm lower than the top of the piston so it should be fine;)

The issue with liners is as far as I'm aware it's not a good idea to over hone them as it were, I'm sure it's fine to do it at least once tho:) and any machine shop worth it's salt won't re-hone a liner incorrectly i would have thought.

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 16:58

Oh it was Definatley only done the once :) next time and I'm sure there will be a next time I will renew them.. With me building this I didn't want to spend big bucks for me to get it wrong I will run this engine this year and then no doubt if I get bored which I will as I always do then I will spend the cash or just sell it and buy something different I still have a cossie itch I need to scratch :)

GTphil

19-01-2013, 17:02

The cost of parts for cosworths scares me!! Lol

i have a burton catalogue here, easy way to spend 20k:eek:

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 17:14

I have an eBay 5 so why not a eBay cossie lol the cossie would purely be a weekend thing baby no2 is on its way so the 5 just dosnt cut it anymore I can't have two babie seats in the 5. I want to do a full resto on a 3door I have just about enough to get a saph but 3doors what iv always wanted..

chris

19-01-2013, 17:23

I have to agree with you woody i have always wanted a cossie a sierra one and a powerful mazda rx7 just for noise and did you get your 5 goin mate

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 17:35

I have to agree with you woody i have always wanted a cossie a sierra one and a powerful mazda rx7 just for noise and did you get your 5 goin mate

Not yet bud iv been to work since 5am then picked my girl up till the mrs comes home then iv got to hot water the car and get rid of all the snow then jack it up and get cold and wet :confused: dam it :) it will be fine I'm sure at work at 5am tomorrow too for some double bubble

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 18:11

im pretty sure the rings wont hit the lip as the rings dont go to the very top of the bore even thou the piston does if the lips not that bad it shouldnt effect the rings

I just thought they would just rough them up a little like I said guys iv never seen it before but it all makes sense :) hope it works

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 18:15

What's the best color to paint the block up? Might just paint it white so I can see all the oil leaks :) probably black is hamerite ok? Just that I have a tin in the garage..

GTphil

19-01-2013, 18:55

Hammerite is ****e!:disagree:

POR Engine enamel is ace:agree:

did mine in black two years ago and it still looks fresh and shiny:) they do loads of colours also.

Nottswoody

19-01-2013, 19:06

Hammerite is ****e!:disagree:

POR Engine enamel is ace:agree:

did mine in black two years ago and it still looks fresh and shiny:) they do loads of colours also.

With the £25 I saved I guess I could stretch to a por engine paint.. Pink it is then :D

Nottswoody

20-01-2013, 17:44

Hammerite is ****e!:disagree:

POR Engine enamel is ace:agree:

did mine in black two years ago and it still looks fresh and shiny:) they do loads of colours also.

Did you get this off eBay phil?

chris

20-01-2013, 18:19

I did mine in por 15 it is really good i bought mine of frost restorations but if its on ebay its called engine enamel yours would look good red being as you have red car or is that a bit much

Nottswoody

20-01-2013, 18:22

I was thinking aluminium so you can see the oil pissing out lol

GTphil

20-01-2013, 18:33

Frost restorations was only 20 mins away from my old house, so I just popped in and got a tin of said enamel.

it's ace stuff, as long as the surface is free from oil and grease and it's dry it goes on with zero prep and the finish is pretty good also, just make sure you mask up all the areas where you don't want paint ;) and don't leave it to dry on your hands:disagree:

Nottswoody

20-01-2013, 18:39

Will do I have had it cleaned already :) so no were like halfords then I wanted to crack on this week I recon I will get two hrs a day for the next two weeks.. So while I wait for parts I can paint and polish what's needed..

GTphil

20-01-2013, 18:53

unfortunately only frost as far as I'm aware, order now and you should have it for Wednesday;) the snow isn't to bad here:)

Nottswoody

20-01-2013, 19:48

What tin do you think I would need? I will need enough todo the block and box I think

chris

20-01-2013, 19:54

Go for the larger one mate if i reamember rite its cheaper than buying two small ones plus if you run out its more down time

Nottswoody

20-01-2013, 20:01

Free delivery from frost orders over £75 lol think I will get it off eBay :)

gttjames

20-01-2013, 20:23

just to add in another option, I got some engine enamel off ebay - all good so far

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125-ml-VQD-Brake-Caliper-Engine-Paint-Fire-Red-Gloss-Heat-Petrol-Oil-Resist-/120849078597?pt=UK_Car_Accessories_Car_Care_Cleani ng&hash=item1c232a9945&nma=true&si=ZiW0s2K00nVPXMKUiU5BhAyZPtw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/frshbuild013.jpg

Nottswoody

20-01-2013, 20:38

Oooooh I like that :-)

Nottswoody

20-01-2013, 22:14

Parts orderd from mike :)

Nottswoody

21-01-2013, 11:08

£35 for a crank inspection and grind? That soun about right to you guys?

Romil Davda

21-01-2013, 11:33

£35 for a crank inspection and grind? That soun about right to you guys?

Yep, Mike and Mick (Brighton Boys) AKA R5MJH, paid about £60 but this was including delivery. (dont think there one needed grinding)

gttjames

21-01-2013, 16:23

Yer i had mine done 6months ago, was £40 for inspection and polish as it didnt need much. Was told it would be £9+vat a jounral if it needed grinding and polishing

so your quote sounds good

Romil Davda

21-01-2013, 16:32

Yer i had mine done 6months ago, was £40 for inspection and polish as it didnt need much. Was told it would be £9+vat a jounral if it needed grinding and polishing

so your quote sounds good

Oh.... Oh.... As James said, if you do get the crank ground, then you'll need over sized bearings, get these from the machine place!

Nottswoody

21-01-2013, 16:51

Took it into a different guy now left it with him a really nice guy he did my head a few months back.. All parts are coming from mike just need to let him know the outcome of the crank I was going to leave it as it seemed fine but mike gave great advise as usuall and said get it done right 1st time.. Really want to get this cracking on but the garage is way too cold lol.. Might paint the block tonight.. But then again the heating is on so its too easy to just stay in :)

djinuk

21-01-2013, 16:54

crank should be good just for a polish really, That engine in my life got regular oil and filter changes etc :)

Nottswoody

21-01-2013, 16:59

crank should be good just for a polish really, That engine in my life got regular oil and filter changes etc :)

I said it was out of a good block and the guy said leave it with me.. 105 yrs experience lol it's a house in nottingham with 3 generations there and a massive shed built down the side of his house.. Never seen so many machines in a garden.. I said I bet the neighbours love you he just laughed and said we've seen a few come and go over the years but they have special permission from the council as its been there since the house were built.. Pitty he is a mini specialist.

Nottswoody

21-01-2013, 17:03

Dj did you say it had piston slap? Just that two bearings were badly scored but the crank seemed fine to me

Ron

21-01-2013, 18:55

Who are you using for engine work? Always good to know a local machine shop 👍

Nottswoody

21-01-2013, 19:15

Who are you using for engine work? Always good to know a local machine shop 👍

It's
Walter s bates
434, Westdale Lane
Postcode:
NG3 6DG
City/Town:
Mapperley, Nottingham (Nottinghamshire)
Main phone:
0115 960 4407
Category:
Engine Reconditioning

Nottswoody

21-01-2013, 19:18

He dose everything boats planes all sorts he just won't mess about doing modifications (iv asked) car wise he said he messes more with minis.. I went to another place as above but it was a large engineering firm with employees so there was no love really.. I just like the idea of a family business..

Nottswoody

22-01-2013, 16:03

It's
Walter s bates
434, Westdale Lane
Postcode:
NG3 6DG
City/Town:
Mapperley, Nottingham (Nottinghamshire)
Main phone:
0115 960 4407
Category:
Engine Reconditioning

I can not praise this dude enough he ploished my crank for £20 says its been ground before but is fine.. His works great and £20 cheap as chips.. Will be sending my head to him in a coupke of weeks great guy.. All parts for build now orderd from our man mike and I even cheekily bought the lightend flywheel I said I wouldn't... SHE IS GOING TO KILL ME!! oh she will be so :devil::devil:

r5_scotty

22-01-2013, 18:32

Nottswoody

22-01-2013, 18:48

good lad!! supporting a smaller business:agree: he sounds helpful and cheap. we all like cheap :laugh:

Believe me bud he's very very busy man I saw about 50 heads and 20 blocks and cranks he dose everything and the good news is his lads are learning the trade.. It's perfect family business really.. We will always need engineers..

Nottswoody

25-01-2013, 17:44

AGHHHHHHH:mad: missed the bloody postie.. Got to wait for all my goodies from the main man mike :) thanks mike your a star!!!

Nottswoody

26-01-2013, 20:10

Right so trip to halfords tomorrow..
So what do I need?
Locktight black sealer?
Locktight for the flywheel nuts
Feeler gauges.. Now it says it has metric and imperial so which do I need?
Cam lube
Torque wrench what will be the highest lbs?? 80 for HG bolts?

Anything else? I get all the parts Monday night so it's time to crack on..

Thanks guys

chris

26-01-2013, 20:26

Metric gauges do you have a haynes manual

Nottswoody

26-01-2013, 20:29

Metric gauges do you have a haynes manual

Yes bud been reading for a while now.. Bored of reading just want to crack on :)

chris

26-01-2013, 20:32

Lol gets boreing after a while and then your torque wrench should go above 100 normaley they do have u got a halfords card

Nottswoody

26-01-2013, 20:35

Lol gets boreing after a while and then your torque wrench should go above 100 normaley they do have u got a halfords card

No bud.. It's ok I have £50 vouches from work for being a good boy :)

chris

26-01-2013, 20:36

Thats good as a christmas bonus?

Nottswoody

26-01-2013, 20:50

Nope Christmas bonus paid for the bits but ffs don't tell the mrs lol i get vouches for achievements I think it's every 5 recommendations from my manager.. I stock take three warehouses for our finance dept.. So when I get them out the **** I get praised quite a bit for just doing my job... At the minute thankfully business is booming.. Every nurofen or strepsil anyone's ever had iv had something todo with it somewhere along the line..

chris

26-01-2013, 20:59

Thats a good idea its little thank you like that makes it all worth while sometimes. On the other hand it makes you a giant ass kisser :cooter:

Jonny5

26-01-2013, 21:01

Every nurofen or strepsil anyone's ever had iv had something todo with it somewhere along the line..

So it was YOU who changed all the nurofen for anti-psychotic medicine :D :laugh: :laugh:

Nottswoody

26-01-2013, 21:02

Thats a good idea its little thank you like that makes it all worth while sometimes. On the other hand it makes you a giant ass kisser :cooter:

If I have to kiss a few asses to get 200bhp so be it lol

Nottswoody

26-01-2013, 21:04

So it was YOU who changed all the nurofen for anti-psychotic medicine :D :laugh: :laugh:

Now that I contractually can not talk about.. I will text you :banned: :gagged:

chris

26-01-2013, 21:14

If I have to kiss a few asses to get 200bhp so be it lol

:laugh:

Nottswoody

27-01-2013, 13:02

Right so iv cleaned and iv painted.. Now to strip the oil pump anyone no off there head the tolerances?

Jonny5

27-01-2013, 14:12

Right so iv cleaned and iv painted.. Now to strip the oil pump anyone no off there head the tolerances?

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=4730

Some good info in here ^ :agree:

Edit :- Hmmm looks like the pictures went with the old site :sad2:

Nottswoody

27-01-2013, 16:51

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=4730

Some good info in here ^ :agree:

Edit :- Hmmm looks like the pictures went with the old site :sad2:

So I may need to replace the oil pump vein cgb want £91 is there anywhere better? Not sure moke dose these..

Nottswoody

31-01-2013, 16:57

So I may need a vernier to dial in the cam.. Who's got one they don't need?

Nottswoody

01-02-2013, 08:16

So I may need a vernier to dial in the cam.. Who's got one they don't need?

That would be a no then lol I didn't mean for free :) it may not matter it's going in for welding today I put the jack through the floor :cartman: thanks to mike I got new jacking points iv asked him to be ruthless tell me how bad it really is :scared: I know it was re silled in 06 but you never know with these old motors. Fingers crossed..

Nottswoody

02-02-2013, 20:12

Bit of progress today 4hrs matching the gasket to head today very boring but if it helps it will be worth it.. Took the head to bits so it can go and get a light skim checked cleaned etc etc.. Painted bits and had my new jacking point welded on today.. And now my backs killing me so time for some six nations :)

Tomorrow bit more painting then finally start building her back up.. Monday order a new vernier off mike and a oil pump from cgb as I don't think mike dose pumps.. Busy busy

Nottswoody

03-02-2013, 12:42

Damn it :mad: forgot to get a piston clamp. Off to halfords and then it building time.. In the Haynes it says start rebuild by putting bearings in. Surely it's put the liners in then clamp them then flip it over an do the bearings?

GTphil

03-02-2013, 14:08

crank first, then pistons and liners, the Haynes is pretty good for what order to do things in, once it's all tourqed, check it rotates freely, then do the same for each piston\liner\bearing that goes in.

have you checked the liner protrusion with a straight edge and feeler blade? They are suppost to be stepped from one end to the other, I found they were all the pretty much the same on my engine to they just went in in any old order, you don't need the seals inplace to check the protrusion.

protrusion is how much they poke out of the top of the block so the gasket can seal round the liners.

Nottswoody

03-02-2013, 14:12

Cheers phil I will do that :)

R5MJH

03-02-2013, 14:29

Nottswoody

03-02-2013, 14:43

Is the Clio 172 oil pump the same as a c1j?

James5

03-02-2013, 14:57

Is the Clio 172 oil pump the same as a c1j?

No mate totally different

Nottswoody

03-02-2013, 15:44

No mate totally different

Thank you :agree:

Nottswoody

04-02-2013, 09:27

Taking my new head for some clean up and a light skim and take the seals out an then it's operation build up :) nipper is at nursery the mrs is having her hair done i should hey a couple of hrs in today :)

Trevhib

04-02-2013, 09:47

More progress pics required in this thread ;)

Nottswoody

04-02-2013, 10:35

More progress pics required in this thread ;)

My photobucket won't let me back in mate since updating my iPhone.. Otherwise I would.

Right so having it skimmed £35 valves cut and reseated de coked £25 bargin :) he's a really nice chap and he also said I did a good job matching the ports :) top bloke..

Nottswoody

04-02-2013, 15:46

So end of play today all new bearings and rings are in cranks polished and fitted all torqued up ep cam is in just waiting for a vernier that I bought today hopefully get here tomorrow the heads in the shop.. It's the timing I'm worried about..

Parts needed now are rods and cam followers as this engine didn't come with any :(

Not bad so far.. Time for a cupper

Nottswoody

04-02-2013, 20:17

More progress pics required in this thread ;)

Pics on profile now but how do I get them on my thread on my iPhone?

Trevhib

04-02-2013, 20:51

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=1539&pictureid=8047

Trevhib

04-02-2013, 20:55

Go to the pics in your RTOC album, right click on one of them, 'copy image URL', come to this thread, click reply, click on the 'insert image' button (fifth from the right), ctrl-v (which is a shortcut for paste), 'submit reply'. :agree:

Would be easy to do the lot in one go (i.e. in one post), with a second browser tab open. One on the thread, one on the pics and just switch between them and keep pasting the image links in.

Nottswoody

04-02-2013, 21:58

Thanks trev but I only have a iPhone the mrs won't let me have a pc she said I will make myself blind from all the porn :)

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 09:44

Couldn't get ahold of mike.. So I shopped at cgb piper vernier and oil pump and dissy plus valve stems orderd at 1pm yesterday and at my door at 930 can't complain at that.. And the build moves on :)

Jonny5

05-02-2013, 10:24

Woody has asked me to upload a few pics of him progressing through his strip down and then rebuild :)

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zpsa2e6b165.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zps0bf1adfb.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zps10ecb0c4.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zps4e0a0d23.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zpse43c68a5.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zps85626fd3.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zpsef7af98d.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zps037899d0.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/JonnyR5-2008/image-2_zps8492b5e4.jpg

Trevhib

05-02-2013, 11:13

Thanks trev but I only have a iPhone the mrs won't let me have a pc she said I will make myself blind from all the porn :)

Sorry mate, I keep forgetting.

Can you not still do this on an iPhone (albeit one pic at a time)? I guess the right-click part of the process is the only issue?

hickman

05-02-2013, 11:42

You can still upload photos on your iphone download the app photo bucket upload ur pics to that and use the URL it gives you for each pic

Jonny5

05-02-2013, 11:50

All pics were uploaded on my iphone. Using photobucket app and copying image links into thread. :agree:

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 12:45

Well I just had te misfortune of dealing with prima racing.. Went to get a timing disc for £2 :) that was the good part.. I asked advice on setting up the EP CAM I bought he snapped and said "who? What is EP what's the spec were did you get it from? Basically very rude and uninterested at any questions I had.. I only asked as it said Ian nuttle racing all over the walls and I asked if he would be able to tell me the best way to time this up.. Then he snapped and said have you got a vernier I said yes piper he then said well why have you bought different items.. I said what dose it matter? He then said I haven't got time for this and walked off.. The lady at the counter was nice enough though. But one things for shaw prima can kiss my ass you won't see any of my money.. Pity as its on my doorstep.. :devil:

Any way Weres this idiots guide to timing lol never done this before..

Oh and he also said Rtoc who? :upyours:

Romil Davda

05-02-2013, 13:33

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=31422

Cam timing ;) - this can take quite a bit of time, so I am told... Let us know how yo get on.

Big Steve - Raider

05-02-2013, 14:18

Search for my thread Dummies guide to timing cam.

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 14:25

Search for my thread Dummies guide to timing cam.

:agree: just doing that now bud.. :)

My heads still of so should be easy enough for me although I too have never done this

Big Steve - Raider

05-02-2013, 14:37

:agree: just doing that now bud.. :)

My heads still of so should be easy enough for me although I too have never done this

Yeah do it with the head off. You need a DTI Gauge, Timing Disk and a piece of a wire coathanger to bend into your marker arrow :niceone:

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 14:51

Bugger no dti gauge just my eyes :)

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 15:06

Would you friggin believe it I live in a world of plastic coat hangers lol never in my life have I needed one as much as I do now!! :)

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 16:54

R5MJH

05-02-2013, 18:23

Gave up :( need to read up more and maybe leave it till the heads back on iv just aligned it to how the Haynes says and go from there I think.. It's too cold and my toes are freezing... Defeated and I hate being defeated..

its easier to dti wiv head off paul it will take time to get it spot on but practice makes perfect, magnetic dti and stand £20 on ebay look in my engine build pics and you can see how to set up

here

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=28420

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 18:33

its easier to dti wiv head off paul it will take time to get it spot on but practice makes perfect, magnetic dti and stand £20 on ebay look in my engine build pics and you can see how to set up

here

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=28420

Top man I can see two things I was doing wrong for a start :)

R5MJH

05-02-2013, 18:43

Top man I can see two things I was doing wrong for a start :)

no probs mate i got it near with stand cam pulley first then changed for vernier to get spot on my advice find true TDC first before you even start timing cam mate any probs pm me mick

Logg

05-02-2013, 18:48

its easier to dti wiv head off paul it will take time to get it spot on but practice makes perfect, magnetic dti and stand £20 on ebay look in my engine build pics and you can see how to set up

here

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=28420

Excatly what I bought last week. :agree: to check mine and Dan's timing with.

R5MJH

05-02-2013, 18:51

Excatly what I bought last week. :agree: to check mine and Dan's timing with.

they are cheap but work perfect andy, you at this meet tom be good to see you and dan:wasntme:

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 19:02

Going to order one tomorrow cheers. God the amount of tools I bought I might start my own garage up :) thanks guys

R5MJH

05-02-2013, 19:03

Going to order one tomorrow cheers. God the amount of tools I bought I might start my own garage up :) thanks guys

i know we had to buy a few but luckily my mate got a garage so i used alot of his snap on stuff:agree:

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 19:13

i know we had to buy a few but luckily my mate got a garage so i used alot of his snap on stuff:agree:

I will be building the one that comes out of my car up aswell see were iv gone right or wrong with this newish build.. We will see :)

R5MJH

05-02-2013, 19:17

as long as cam timing is spot on you will be fine i checked ours 3 times before i put back together, get it right while engines out its a pain to do in bay

Tony Walker

05-02-2013, 19:32

as long as cam timing is spot on you will be fine i checked ours 3 times before i put back together, get it right while engines out its a pain to do in bay

definetly easier to do before its fitted, once fitted its a right pita.

Nottswoody

05-02-2013, 19:59

definetly easier to do before its fitted, once fitted its a right pita.

Easier for someone who's done it :) I will ask again once I get the tools :)

Tony Walker

05-02-2013, 21:03

:) may of timed loads of cars but not very often you do it with a DTI gauge so was a reletively new experience for me too :D

Nottswoody

06-02-2013, 16:08

Yeah do it with the head off. You need a DTI Gauge, Timing Disk and a piece of a wire coathanger to bend into your marker arrow :niceone:

Dti orderd :) should be here Friday so can some one spell out even show with pics what I do after the tdc is found its the timing of the cam and how to measure that that's blowing my mind as the vernier doesn't have the - mark on their.. I'm sure it's very easy but its not to me lol

Trevhib

06-02-2013, 16:42

Nottswoody

06-02-2013, 16:49

I see Prima are still a bunch of hairy bags then. :mad:

There have been no end of Prima threads on this club over years and I've said the same thing in every one. Stay away.

There should be statement given to all new members.

"Don't bother with Prima unless you absolutely have to. If you do, go prepared, don't let them touch your car and don't take any crap." :tuttut:

I got the distinct feeling if you ain't buying they ain't talking.. I had a 5 yrs ago at there last place and they were nice enough then.. When I turned around in the shop you can view the workshop area.. There was an old gorgeous firari don't ask which one :ashamed: it looked like James bonds old Aston.. Then there were two 50s race cars there so I'm guessing they don't need the 5 scene like they used to.. I can honestly say I won't set foot in there again..

Big Steve - Raider

06-02-2013, 17:05

Dti orderd :) should be here Friday so can some one spell out even show with pics what I do after the tdc is found its the timing of the cam and how to measure that that's blowing my mind as the vernier doesn't have the - mark on their.. I'm sure it's very easy but its not to me lol

Ok so here goes:

Fit the original timing gears and a NEW CHAIN and TENSIONER. That will then make sure you're in the right ball park to begin with.

Then (without moving any of the gears) carefully remove the Camshaft Gear and fit the Vernier Pulley.

Next fit the Timing Disc to the Crankshaft (Fit disc with the Pulley to stop you mashing the Disc up from the bolt). Do the bolt up TIGHT (you need to rotate the engine anticlockwise sometimes & it's annoying when you do that & the flippin bolt comes undone)

Now fit the DTI Gauge onto the Block and position the tip over Piston #1 (Closest to the Timing Chain). Then wind the crank round and note the highest position of the piston on the DTI gauge. That position is then at TDC. You then need to bend your piece of wire coathanger around a bolt, and bolt it to the block. You then need to bend the wire to point to the TDC mark on the Timing Wheel.

There is a certain amount of "Dwell" on a Crankshaft (where the piston is at the top of it's stroke) and that can be seen when you're using a timing disc. If you CAREFULLY rotate the crankshaft, you will notice that you can rotate the crank maybe a couple of degrees without it moving the DTI? Well that's the dwell. You need to make sure you notice where the dwell starts, and where it stops (measured in degrees on the Timing Disc). The middle of these two positions is TRUE TDC. When you find this middle position, again tweak your bit of wire to point to TDC on the Timing Disc.

Now it's time to set the Camshaft Timing. Remove the DTI gauge from measuring the head of the piston, and adjust it to measure the top of the camshaft Follower on the Inlet Valve of piston #1 (second Follower from Timing Chain). I imagine this will be a little bit tricky so would welcome some suggestions from other members here on what to use to make obtaining that measurement easier? A small metal block for example? :scratch:

Anyway, as soon as you have your Camshaft Follower measurement set, you can rotate the crankshaft to find the point at which the camshaft follower will come no higher (ie you're at the top of the cam). You now need to notice the measurement on the DTI gauge and write this down. (Say it's 8.1 for example).

Next comes the part where everything starts to make sense....! Turn the engine back to the TDC position and then look in the leaflet that came with your cam to get the correct timing position in degrees (say it's 112 ATDC - After Top Dead Centre). Now rotate the engine CLOCKWISE until you get to that position (112 degrees).

Now you need to undo the bolts which give you the adjustment on the vernier pully and rotate the camshaft independantally to the crankshaft (making sure you don't turn the camshaft from TDC) until you find the highest position of the camshaft follower again (remember in this example we measured it to be 8.1).

Then tighten everything up and you're timed!!!!! Check everything a couple of times to make sure you're right and adjust where necessary. (Rotate the engine a couple of turns and then find 112 ATDC and make sure you still have the 8.1 on the dti)

Sorted.

You then need to get a hammer, and get EVIL on the timing chain cover to give yourself clearance.

GTphil

06-02-2013, 17:31

I will also add don't turn the engine backwards while taking any measurements, as the timing chain has some slack in it and this can muck your readings up;)

so say you go passed tdc turn the engine over the corrects way to try and find it again:agree:

Nottswoody

06-02-2013, 17:32

Thanks Steve top man thank you very much.. It's starting to sink in it doesn't help when I only have half the tools needed I think iv been looking at to many different ways of doing this.. It's was also a very cold day in my garage and as a friend said I got carried away seeing all the new parts I just wanted to fit them all :) I won't get chance till Friday night now but I will be cracking on with it ASAP. I want to get it finished and ran in before people start going to pod.. Again thanks :niceone:

Nottswoody

06-02-2013, 17:33

GTphil

06-02-2013, 17:36

Oh and I guess it was a waste of time painting the cam cover then lol

either use a thinner washer under the vernier bolt or use a cork timing cover gasket and you won't need to bash anything ;) as satisfying as this can be.

Nottswoody

06-02-2013, 17:43

either use a thinner washer under the vernier bolt or use a cork timing cover gasket and you won't need to bash anything ;) as satisfying as this can be.

Is that what the cork gasket is for in the bottom gasket set iv got a couple of washers with copper inserts left over I haven't a clue were they go any ideas? I didn't remove any I think..

GTphil

06-02-2013, 17:46

Is that what the cork gasket is for in the bottom gasket set iv got a couple of washers with copper inserts left over I haven't a clue were they go any ideas? I didn't remove any I think..

I know what ones you mean, I never used them anywhere either ;) the cork gasket is yes, as long as it's timing cover shaped of course:p

Nottswoody

06-02-2013, 17:51

I know what ones you mean, I never used them anywhere either ;) the cork gasket is yes, as long as it's timing cover shaped of course:p

So the large metal one isn't an alignment washer for the chain?

GTphil

06-02-2013, 18:05

Nottswoody

06-02-2013, 18:07

Not sure what one you mean? I was referring to the copper ones with rubber inserts, usually inside the small bag in the bottom end set, didn't read your post correctly:wasntme: a pic might jolt the old grey matter;) or someone elses......

Sorry I thought you said replace the washer on the vernier with a thinner one.. Is this not needed to keep inline?

GTphil

06-02-2013, 18:36

when I stripped my lump I had a thick cast washer under the bolt for the vernier I just didn't bother with the cast washer and just used the really thick washer under the bolt, I will get a pic in 2 mins;)

GTphil

06-02-2013, 18:40

My phones being a tard:mad: there's a pic close up of my pully on the second page of the pics on my profile:)

gttjames

06-02-2013, 23:33

Ok so here goes:

Fit the original timing gears and a NEW CHAIN and TENSIONER. That will then make sure you're in the right ball park to begin with.

Then (without moving any of the gears) carefully remove the Camshaft Gear and fit the Vernier Pulley.

Next fit the Timing Disc to the Crankshaft (Fit disc with the Pulley to stop you mashing the Disc up from the bolt). Do the bolt up TIGHT (you need to rotate the engine anticlockwise sometimes & it's annoying when you do that & the flippin bolt comes undone)

Now fit the DTI Gauge onto the Block and position the tip over Piston #1 (Closest to the Timing Chain). Then wind the crank round and note the highest position of the piston on the DTI gauge. That position is then at TDC. You then need to bend your piece of wire coathanger around a bolt, and bolt it to the block. You then need to bend the wire to point to the TDC mark on the Timing Wheel.

There is a certain amount of "Dwell" on a Crankshaft (where the piston is at the top of it's stroke) and that can be seen when you're using a timing disc. If you CAREFULLY rotate the crankshaft, you will notice that you can rotate the crank maybe a couple of degrees without it moving the DTI? Well that's the dwell. You need to make sure you notice where the dwell starts, and where it stops (measured in degrees on the Timing Disc). The middle of these two positions is TRUE TDC. When you find this middle position, again tweak your bit of wire to point to TDC on the Timing Disc.

Now it's time to set the Camshaft Timing. Remove the DTI gauge from measuring the head of the piston, and adjust it to measure the top of the camshaft Follower on the Inlet Valve of piston #1 (second Follower from Timing Chain). I imagine this will be a little bit tricky so would welcome some suggestions from other members here on what to use to make obtaining that measurement easier? A small metal block for example? :scratch:

Anyway, as soon as you have your Camshaft Follower measurement set, you can rotate the crankshaft to find the point at which the camshaft follower will come no higher (ie you're at the top of the cam). You now need to notice the measurement on the DTI gauge and write this down. (Say it's 8.1 for example).

Next comes the part where everything starts to make sense....! Turn the engine back to the TDC position and then look in the leaflet that came with your cam to get the correct timing position in degrees (say it's 112 ATDC - After Top Dead Centre). Now rotate the engine CLOCKWISE until you get to that position (112 degrees).

Now you need to undo the bolts which give you the adjustment on the vernier pully and rotate the camshaft independantally to the crankshaft (making sure you don't turn the camshaft from TDC) until you find the highest position of the camshaft follower again (remember in this example we measured it to be 8.1).

Then tighten everything up and you're timed!!!!! Check everything a couple of times to make sure you're right and adjust where necessary. (Rotate the engine a couple of turns and then find 112 ATDC and make sure you still have the 8.1 on the dti)

Sorted.

You then need to get a hammer, and get EVIL on the timing chain cover to give yourself clearance.

that's a great write up steve

Trevhib

07-02-2013, 10:01

Steve/Ian, save that and put it in the articles section pls. :coffee:

EDIT - great write up Steve :)

Scoff

07-02-2013, 12:41

Good but I'd add that there can be a 5 deg or so spread on the cam which will read max lift.

You really need to time it up the best you can, wind the engine back 30 deg or so then slowly wind it forward (clockwise, removing the slack from the chain) and keep going slowly until you see your max lift reading. At this point make a note of the angle on the crank. Keep winding forward slowly and you'll notice the DTI remains the same for a short period. At the moment it starts to drop again make another note of the crank angle. The real peak lift angle will be the average of the 2 points. So for example if the initial peak came up at 110 and it started to fall again at 114 then you can say the peak is 112. Adjust and repeat a few times until you're happy.

Nottswoody

07-02-2013, 15:10

Cheers guys my dti came today so will be on this agin tomorrow night and I'm not going to bed till its done :)

R5MJH

07-02-2013, 15:18

Cheers guys my dti came today so will be on this agin tomorrow night and I'm not going to bed till its done :)
ur in for a late one then:laugh:

Nottswoody

07-02-2013, 15:26

ur in for a late one then:laugh:

Really is it that bad? Aghhhhh man :scratch: it didn't even come with instructions lol..

R5MJH

07-02-2013, 15:32

Really is it that bad? Aghhhhh man :scratch: it didn't even come with instructions lol..
it can be, get true tdc first then set cam timimg

Nottswoody

07-02-2013, 15:39

it can be, get true tdc first then set cam timimg

It's a shame the needle on the gauge isn't long enough to get right into the cam.. I'm sure it will work out.. My confidence is low in this though lol oh ekk but I guess it will work out one way or another

R5MJH

07-02-2013, 15:47

It's a shame the needle on the gauge isn't long enough to get right into the cam.. I'm sure it will work out.. My confidence is low in this though lol oh ekk but I guess it will work out one way or another
find true tdc first then either put a push rod in no1 inlet (fw end) connect to dti and set at highest point of lift, i did mine with the head on so different i set up all tappets then removed standand tappet bolt then made a homemade bolt to fit in tappet to dti gauge and off ya go mate

R5MJH

07-02-2013, 15:55

sorry paul get on youtube theres some videos on there on different engine but method is the same:agree:

james5 has youtube link pm him

Nottswoody

08-02-2013, 10:49

Heads done :) skimmed reseated decoked all for £50 bargin can't praise this guy enough :)

Nad-5GTT

08-02-2013, 11:07

Bargain:)

Nottswoody

08-02-2013, 19:03

Heads done :) skimmed reseated decoked all for £50 bargin can't praise this guy enough :)

Purely out of interest what's the going rate for this kida work? What's the difference in areas?

Nottswoody

08-02-2013, 20:51

Right I'm really confused I'm doing the cam hight and on the dti its only showing 5.8 as the highest point? Is it me doing this wrong?

R5MJH

08-02-2013, 21:11

Right I'm really confused I'm doing the cam hight and on the dti its only showing 5.8 as the highest point? Is it me doing this wrong?

did you find true tdc first

Nottswoody

08-02-2013, 21:30

R5MJH

08-02-2013, 21:46

Yes mate found that no probs put the standard wheel on lighted them up the put the vernier on turned it around untill I got the 5.8 on the dti.. Called it quits I know when I'm beat :) a good member has said he will come over and help us.. Top man :)

tbh mate its not easy to do i worked in a garage for many years so have the technical knowledge it still took time for me hopefully rtoc matey can sort for ya then boss

gttjames

09-02-2013, 22:08

Purely out of interest what's the going rate for this kida work? What's the difference in areas?

well when i had a head checked 7months ago in cambridge is cost me £40 just for a pressure check...

Scoff

09-02-2013, 23:54

5.8mm sounds about right for a piper 270 or similar. You're measuring cam lift. The rocker has a ratio of 1.5:1 so you'll have cam lift x 1.5:1 at the valve (7.8mm)

Nottswoody

16-02-2013, 21:05

Back in the garage tomorrow :) thanks to thundercat its timed at 112 degrees its hard to find the time to crack on with it.. By the end of tomorrow I want the liners resat (ones sitting up to much I need to swop two around better I doit now not later.. Sump on then head on hopefully set it up aswell early night for me I think.. Thank f3ck its warmed up a bit too

Matt Cole

17-02-2013, 09:39

I would maybe allow for half a deg or so for the new chain also.

Nottswoody

17-02-2013, 13:52

Gutted was flying today :( cam covers back on after knocking it about to make the vernier fit. Sumps on and all sealed and tight. Went to start putting the head back on and I haven't got any head bolt washes :mad: it's because I'm making it up from different parts but I will get some from work.. It's nearly there :) now just got to explain to her indoors I need another day onit :)

Tim B

17-02-2013, 14:09

Nottswoody

17-02-2013, 16:50

My misses just committed, dream on mate. (They just don't understand):D:D:D:D:D

Dose that mean your mrs has heard it all before? And were never nearly there :laugh:

I haven't even finished this and I'm already thinking "if this gets me close to 200bhp then what's next to get me to 250 :coffee: :laugh: I get bored very quickly I was thinking with the engine i take out of mine what could I do to that one? Answers below please :)

Tim B

17-02-2013, 17:06

Dose that mean your mrs has heard it all before? And were never nearly there :laugh:
Yep you got it :crap:. Have fun with the rest of the rebuild.

GTphil

17-02-2013, 17:07

You will want to make sure the headbolt washers are the proper thick cast washers and not weak skinny ones.;)

Nottswoody

17-02-2013, 17:13

You will want to make sure the headbolt washers are the proper thick cast washers and not weak skinny ones.;)

:agree: will do I have one from a spare off my current engine to size up I just really don't want to break the one in the car as I have plans for that :)

Nottswoody

22-02-2013, 16:01

New waterpump orderd as I don't want to break my current engine. Hopefully get the head on and completed as thundercat again came to the rescue with headbolt washes :) really isn't enough hrs in the day from working and being a dad plus were back trying for a baby :) :hump: its a hard job but fun.. So guys what should I set my valve clearences at? I think this ep cam sounds like a 270 cam just from reading the measurements.. But what do I know.. It's all new to me :coffee::coffee:

Nottswoody

23-02-2013, 17:16

Jonny5

23-02-2013, 17:46

20/20 :agree:

gttjames

23-02-2013, 19:46

If its a piper 270 - 25/30 as per piper website
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/product_nav.php?type=C&cat=CM&man=19&engine=57

Nottswoody

23-02-2013, 20:06

If its a piper 270 - 25/30 as per piper website
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/product_nav.php?type=C&cat=CM&man=19&engine=57

It's an ep Motorsport cam bud but the measurements are close to a 270 I think not to sure really I guess there's only one way to find out :scratch: from what we measured and set it to 112 degrees perhaps its closer to a285 :scratch:

Nottswoody

25-02-2013, 20:57

Engines done :) I hope just need to get some holidays off and fit it now.. One question when I turn it over by hand you can hear air tighten then release slowly is that normal? Call it paranoid but iv never done this before :) hope it works out..

R5MJH

25-02-2013, 21:06

GT Josh

25-02-2013, 21:09

yes thats right :laugh::laugh::laugh:

R5MJH

25-02-2013, 21:10

sounds right, its got some compression then lol:laugh:

forgot comp test once up and runing your looking for 145/150 psi per piston

Nottswoody

25-02-2013, 21:12

Phew.... Hey I said I was new you all know what it's like the first time :cooter: well some of you do.. :) don't remember my old engine making these noises lol

Nottswoody

07-03-2013, 18:48

So Iv booked a week off on the 18th to get this in.. Still a couple of things I need to get yet what's the oil pipe on the waterpump side? I saw it in another pic I'm missing this off my nee build.. I really don't want to take bits off my current engine but I guess something's I will have to swop over.. Should be fun as long as the weather stays dry..

mike's r5

07-03-2013, 18:53

The pipe near waterpump is the oil breather.

Nottswoody

07-03-2013, 19:02

Cheers it was a bare block when I bought it an iv made it from differnt engines I will just sit the two engines next to each other and swop the outside bits.. Unless anyone has one local they don't want?

Nottswoody

10-03-2013, 20:55

So thinking of going for a paddle clutch but which is a best alll rounder? Or should I just go for the Volvo clutch? If so which Volvo should I be asking for at my local factors?

GTphil

10-03-2013, 21:16

How much power are you after? The volvo one is good upto 210ft/lb's or so, after that you will be better off with a paddle plate, it's worth getting a paddle if your not planning on pulling the lump for a while, particularly if pods on your hit list;)

I use an ap paddle plate with the Volvo cover and release bearing, and also the long arm conversion, it's ok both on the road and at pod so far, I'm only just pushing 200ft/lb's but it has coped with 30 or so pod runs all with full throttle launches and has done 2.5k or so, all is well so far.

Nottswoody

10-03-2013, 21:43

r5_scotty

10-03-2013, 22:19

Only 200 for now lol you know how it is :) iv bought a t28 now my problem is I will use it daily so I really need a happy medium.. I don't mind taking the clutch out say once a year with wear and tear but I don't want one exploding.. I have a standard one on now and that's lasted two years nearly and I don't hold back on the boost :) think the Volvo will be fine this year it will give me time to save for the paddle.. Do you know the part number for the Volvo clutch?

lots of people run the volvo clutch and iv herd of people running em with big power too! i belive dale aka bigfoot ran his f7p turbo on one.i think that was about 260bhp? good clutch in my opinion.will sort a part number out tomorrow for you. mike aka gtturbospares, has a few in stock :agree:

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 18:39

So engines going in next week.. What's the deal running these in? How many mikes at what? And NO BOOST :( not done one before

chris

13-03-2013, 18:44

I do 500 miles mate but when i first get the new engine running i get it up to temp shut it off then drop oil in case of any crap when i assembled mate and change filter have you got a turbo oil filter ?

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 18:50

chris

13-03-2013, 18:51

Oh and you can use when first started cheap oil because you are only guna drop it out thats what i do others may do it diffrently

chris

13-03-2013, 18:54

Yer I have a turbo filter I'm goin to run it with the t2 on just so I don't get tempted :-) then it's t28 time :cool: told the mrs I will be going for a long drive to get the miles up.. Is there a set revs? Or speed? Can't keep going round the block :)

Again others may do it diffrent but obviously just dont high rev but dont make engine pull hard either just take it easy :agree:

GTphil

13-03-2013, 18:58

different strokes for different folks!

some people say give it death from the off, others say take it easy for 500 miles or so.

here's what i did, the first start up i needed to bed the cam in so i set the engine speed to 2.8k then left it for 15 minuits, then dropped the oil and changed the filter, re-tourq the headbolts then do the tappets one more time.

I then did 400 miles with no turbo, i blanked off an old exhaust housing, blocked off the oil feed with a wheel bolt, and blocked off the oil return, bridged the coolant pipes.

i worked the engine up through the revs then let the revs fall on over run, took it up to 2k then 3k and so on and so fourth. Through out the 400 miles i was carefull to not let the revs stay constant for to long. After the 400 miles i changed the oil and filter

Then i bolted on the blower then did 25 runs at pod gradually upping the boost:smokin:

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 19:22

Greats stuff thanks Chris/phil I'm sure it won't take me long to run it in that is if it runs lol arse will be a twitching on that turn of the key.. Hope the weather picks up or it won't be much fun in the cold.. Either way its getting done. Pod season is coming :) really looking forward to the blyton day and retro.. But really looking forward to the convoy.. I want to see people's faces when they see the first and say "you don't see many of them" and then another passes and another :) what's the most 5s in a convoy been?

chris

13-03-2013, 19:26

Yea it will be funny to see peoples faces. I saw one today in shrewsbury they do stick out like a sore thumb amongust other traffic they do look good

Tony Walker

13-03-2013, 19:38

Not sure if you've done this or not its a pretty simple obvious thing to do but make sure it turns over freely before starting it(valves not touching pistons) so when your cranking you cant do any real damage.
On my old engine i did struggle getting oil pressure when id had the oil pump off, i had to feed oil in to it down the oil filter housing. i litterally ran it for a minute with no oil pressure by accident lol.
i presumed it would prime and pick it up but it didnt. so make sure your oil pump has some oil in it to pick some more up :agree:

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 19:52

Yer it turns nicely tony actually very nicely the thing I'm worried about is the dissy really I did as the Haynes said and it all lines up fine and everything's nice and new plugs are in and all seems well so far.. Thundercat is coming over Friday so I'm waiting for him to start her up iv got plenty of other things tobe doing aswell so I won't be stood about much I think three days taking my time still got to paint the gearbox and tidy all pipe work plus move my expansion tank all the little bits really.. I'm actually looking forward to it I know some will hate me saying it but I got bord of the 5 being reliable lol.. I can only hope this engine is as good as the one coming out..

Tony Walker

13-03-2013, 20:24

Dave Reed

13-03-2013, 20:32

As said run it up with cheap oil, dump it, change filter & clean turbo feed.. If you've got a new cam, you'll be needing to run that in, although I'd advise to bed the rings first, then swap the cam..
Also give the head a re torque, check tappets etc and have a general look around for any leaks.. Also a good time to just check a few bolts around to make sure everything is tight ie you haven't missed anything.

Now go for a run, going up and down the gears trying not to put too much load on and not to rev too high.. Also take it to say 2.5k then let it over run to 1.5k, then repeat this upto 5kish going back to 1.5k on over run. 50 to 100 miles

Now I'd swap the cam over, run that it in 20 mins @ 2.5k to 3k (most important thing really is to not let it idle).

Then drop the oil, change filter, clean turbo feed, fit t28 and :burnrubber:

I also learnt if it's going to break, it'll break no matter what you've done ;) :laugh:

This of course is what I do and it's totally up to you how you run your engine in :)

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 20:47

Aye? Swop the cam over? It's already in there dave..

Dave Reed

13-03-2013, 21:08

Aye? Swop the cam over? It's already in there dave..

That's what I'm saying, u need to 'bed' the rings in and the cam.. Holding the revs up to run the cam in isn't really a very good idea as the rings need bedding in a different way.

That's just how I do it, not to say I'm right or anything :)

Tony Walker

13-03-2013, 21:17

Is there any particular reason cams need bedding in at said rpm? what difference does bedding it in on idle make?

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 21:19

Hey I respect All yours guys knowledge as you've all done it and been succesfull :)

Dave Reed

13-03-2013, 21:36

Is there any particular reason cams need bedding in at said rpm? what difference does bedding it in on idle make?

Yes, because they need bedding in :D I'm only going on what piper advise when you install a new cam, just like they advise to reface/replace the followers, many don't mind and seem to get away with it.

Tony Walker

13-03-2013, 21:41

Yes, because they need bedding in :D I'm only going on what piper advise when you install a new cam, just like they advise to reface/replace the followers, many don't mind and seem to get away with it.

lol yeah i know what they say i just like to see proof/understand the reason for things, just seems like a get out clause for piper when they get a worn cam in for warranty.... "did you bed it in at 2781rpm for 15 mins?" :cooter:

Dave Reed

13-03-2013, 21:55

lol yeah i know what they say i just like to see proof/understand the reason for things, just seems like a get out clause for piper when they get a worn cam in for warranty.... "did you bed it in at 2781rpm for 15 mins?" :cooter:

No I think it was 2812rpm if I remember correctly ;)

It has to bed to the followers, hence why you should replace. The followers are much harder material than the cam itself, I've seen weak followers concave before (like TNT Andy) and it not only destroys the follower, it'll wreck the cam.. That'll happen in no time at all, I've never had the problem until recently, one of my followers decided to crap itself and that was it, bye bye cam :cry: it's an expensive mistake should you get it wrong, although, I think mine was down to a tight tappet (set it to an inlet not exhaust :ashamed:)

I could've taken my cam back to piper as it was less than a year old and had only done 1000miles at the most, but I knew what their response would have been, so i don't think they say it to cover themselves, also my engine builder advises me to run the cam in..

Problem is, is everyone will say something different..... Sooo good luck Nots :D

here's what piper say

http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/tech_camshaft_installation.php

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 22:04

Starting up your new or rebuilt engine for the first time

by Bob (mr409)

Whether you've rebuilt your engine yourself, had it rebuilt or have a brand new engine, you have alot of money invested at this point. Now your ready for that last big task...Starting it! I can remember the day I started my engine for the first time. I know that I will never forget it. It's a very tense feeling especially if it's your first time. It's about as nerve racking as waiting in the fathers waiting room for your first born!

This article will focus on the proper method of starting up a new or rebuilt engine for the first time and to help alleviate some of those nervous feelings. Following the information found here, you can correctly break in your new engine. This information comes from various books but mostly from my own personal experiences.

Starting an engine for the first time is a make or break deal for the camshaft. (unless your using a roller cam-these do not require the usual break the way the flat tappet type do) If done correctly, your engine will provide years of service. If done incorrectly, you can do major damage within minutes! It's the first 5 minutes of running time that can wipe out a new cam. The other 15 minutes is just insurance. If I haven't scared you away yet, continue on as I list all the do's and dont's to help you avoid such a disaster.

A very important step is preperation. This isn't something to rush into. Taking a day or two before fire-up to look over the engine and double check (even triple check) your work is a good idea. Sometimes it's easy to over look the most common of things. You want to find any loose bolts, loose fittings, etc now rather than on the "big day." You did remember to remove that shop rag from the intake before bolting on the carb didn't you???

Here is a list of items to adjust and check a day or two prior to fire-up:

Valve adjustment-This is very important to do now. Spend as much time as needed until your sure all the valves are adjusted to specs.

Ignition timing-Another important step. If the timing isn't set correctly, your engine may run poorly or not start at all. You want the engine to start right away and avoid any unnecasary cranking which can damage the cam lobes.

Check over the torque of the headbolts, intake bolts, exhaust manifold or headers as well as all external engine parts such as fuel pump, water pump, etc.

Pre-fill the carb with fuel and make sure the accelerator pump is working. It should spray gas out in steady streams. Doing this will insure that your engine gets fuel immediately. No fuel...no start.

Fill oil filter with oil-If you haven't already, it's very important to do this with your new engine to insure that the engine has a continuous supply of oil and doesn't hit a dry spot. (it's a good idea to do this everytime you do an oil change too)

Be sure to use a thermostat. You want the engine to reach normal operating temperature. Not using a 'stat can cause the engine to run too cold and not heat up properly. It's also a good idea to test the 'stat ahead of time even if it's new. Place 'stat in a pot of boiling water on the stove to be sure it will open. To avoid any air pockets which would cause overheating, with thermostat removed, fill the block with distilled water then re-install the stat. Then simply fill the rest of the cooling system at the radiator as normal. It's important to use water at this point and not antifreeze. If your new engine should have an internal leak, antifreeze getting to the bearings could wipe them out.

Check over spark plug wire routing. Be sure all wires are installed to the correct cylinders and that they are not touching any part of the engine that will burn them.

Install an oil pressure gauge and temperature gauge to the engine even if you don't plan on keeping them in the car. It's best to monitor the engines vital signs with gauges than to rely on idiot lights.

Install a tachometer. You'll need one to monitor the rpms during break in.

Now go get some sleep. Tomorrow is a big day!

Heres the list of things to do on fire up day:

Having a helper is a plus. An extra set of eyes never hurts! If no helper is available, don't fear. This job can be done by one person. Im living proof of that.

Check all fluids, belts, and visually go over all bolts fittings and connections one last time. I know, you just did this yesterday but do it again anyway! Remove radiator cap and leave it off until the thermostat opens. This will ensure that any trapped air in the system will be able to escape. (once the thermostat opens you can install the cap and continue on with the break in) Install battery and check power wire at the coil. (without power here, engine will not start)

Pre-prime the oiling system. This is very important! Remove distributor and all spark plugs. Attach an old distributor shaft with the housing (cam gear must be removed) or a store bought primer to an electric drill and spin in a clockwise direction for a few minutes. Check oil pressure gauge to be sure all is working good. Turn engine over a 1/4 of a turn, and spin oil pump again for a minute or two. Continue this until the engine has gone 2 full revolutions then, reinstall the distributor being sure to a align the rotor so it points to #1. (the number 1 cylinder of the engine must be on the compression stroke-if it's not, the engine won't be in time and will not start) It's also a good idea to remove the valve covers during priming to be sure that oil is reaching the top of the engine. *note-if using only a store bought primer rod with no distributor body the oil will not make it this high up into the engine as it's the distributor body that directs the oil up into this area.

Place a house fan directly in front of the radiator to blow cool air into it. An engine running at a high rpm standing still will benefit from the extra air.

Have a garden hose nearby in the event of a fire. A fire extinquisher is also a good idea but use that as a last resort as it will really make a mess! (saving your car is the most important thing however)

Have a watch or clock available.

Dump about a 1/4 cup of gas down the carburetor and operate the throttle to allow the fuel to pass through the throttle plates. Look down carb while moving the throttle to check one more time that the accelerator pump is working. (the engine is bone dry at this point so it will need a bit more fuel than usual but don't go overboard) Check to make sure choke is working properly and that it's set where it will start your cold engine. Install the air cleaner. (be sure to use the air cleaner in the event of a backfire-if any flames do backfire through while trying to start, crank the engine again to suck them back into the engine-this is a good tip to remember anytime this happens)

You'll need a way of keeping the engine at 2,000 rpm's for the break-in. If you have a helper, one of you can sit in the car and do this via the gas pedal. If your going solo on this one, do what I did. Tie a piece of heavy string to the throttle linkage at the carb. Make it long enough so you can reach it while standing at the driver door. After engine starts and you have the rpm's at 2,000, just tie the string off near the cowl or hood hinge. Then you will be free to walk around and keep an eye on everything.

Do the break-in outdoors! There will be alot of smoke coming off of the exhaust manifolds or headers especially if you have coated them. There will be plenty of blue smoke coming out of the tail pipes as well until the rings seat themselves. Do not be alarmed when you see this, it's normal. Be sure to have adequate ventilation. * Note-Moly faced rings will be broken in by the time you get the cam broken in. If using any chrome face type rings, take the car out on an open stretch of road and starting at 30 mph, accelerate to the legal speed limit. When you get to the limit, let off on the gas and let the engine pull the speed down to 30 mph. Repeat this about 10 times and your rings should be seated properly. This procedure can also be done if using Moly rings as an added insurance.

With all that done, your ready to bring that beast to life! Are you nervous??? If you said no, your a liar! Now take a deep breath. When you are sure that your ready and you feel confident that nothing has been over looked, pump the pedal a few times and hit the key. If everything has been done properly, the engine should roar to life almost immediately. If it doesn't start within a reasonable amount of time (say 10-15 seconds), stop and find out why. Do not continue cranking.

Once the engine starts, hold the throttle at 2,000 rpm's. Hydraulic lifters will be noisy for the first minute or two until they pump up. Check oil pressure gauge to be sure there is sufficient pressure. Listen to the engine for any odd sounds. Check engine at this point for any fuel leaks and if all is well, you can tie off the string to hold the throttle at 2,000 rpm's. Note the time. Keep the engine running at this speed for 20 minutes. (if there are any problems, you'll have to shut down immediately. Allow rpm's to drop down quickly and turn key off right away. Do not allow engine to idle. Find or fix the problem before resuming break-in)

During this time, keep an eye out for any leaks and watch those gauges! Also, be sure the choke has opened up properly. Once the 'stat opens, install the radiator cap. Do not allow engine to overheat! If temperatures go too high, you will have to shut down. (note-a fresh engine will usually run a bit hotter than normal due to increased friction of the new parts)

If all goes well, you'll make it to the 20 minute mark without any problems. Un-tie the string and allow the rpm's to come down. Set the idle speed at this point. Now is a good time to check/adjust the timing, and points if you have them, as well as the idle mixture screws. Shut down and give your engine it's first oil and filter change. (don't forget to write down the mileage) After engine has cooled, re-torque the intake manifold bolts. Drain the cooling system and replenish with a 50/50 mix of anti-freeze and distilled water providing there is no sign of water in the oil when you change it.

If your car is licensed and all looks good, you can take her out for a spin if you like. Be sure to go easy on the "loud" pedal especially for the first 500 miles. Do not drive at any one speed for any extended amount of time and don't push the engine too hard. If your car is not ready for the road yet, avoid starting up and shutting off to show your friends or to get in and out of the garage. Get that car out on the highway as soon as you can to complete the break-in. (note-some people believe in driving the engine hard right from the start-I could never get myself to do that but it's your engine, and your choice)

After 500 miles, change oil and filter again. (write down the mileage) At this point, some say it's ok to drive the car just as it will be driven later on in life but I feel it's a good idea to continue to go easy on it. The choice is yours, it's your money and your engine. Change oil again at 2,000 miles and now your can consider your engine fully broken in. Oil can be changed on a normal time schedule from this point on. I like to change about every 3,000 miles.

I would like to leave with one last tip. Take plenty of pictures during the break in. This is one of those Polaroid moments if there ever was one! A video camera would be even better. I regretably didn't even think of doing this when I started my engine but then again, I didnt' have this list then either. :)

Have fun with your new engine!

Bob (mr409)

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Dave Reed

13-03-2013, 22:11

All in all then, not too far from what I already said :)

Nottswoody

13-03-2013, 22:31

All in all then, not too far from what I already said :)

If bob says its ok then it must be lol

Thanks dave..

Nottswoody

15-03-2013, 10:33

Guys I know this is me being a tight arse but dose it matter what grade of oil I use to flush my new engine? Only aldi is doing some very cheap it's only going tobe in the car for minutes

GT Josh

15-03-2013, 10:57

You wanna get some 1040w mineral to pick up any ****e or buy some of the actual flush oil that's available. That's what I used...

GT Josh

15-03-2013, 11:03

Don't use the flush oil if your going to move the car or rev it over 3000 rpm, I just let then engine get upto temp and dropped it...

Nottswoody

15-03-2013, 11:07

Will do cheers josh

Coops

15-03-2013, 11:59

I used chip fat grade oil to run in essentially, pretty much what you looking at, aldi special mineral stuff, worked a charm

olidaviesuk

15-03-2013, 18:04

Wouldn't hurt to put an oil filter in the turbo oil line for the first 500 miles - one with a reusable filter is best so you can clean it every so often.... Think what all that swarf is going to do you your lovely new 360 bearings....

Nottswoody

15-03-2013, 19:14

Nottswoody

15-03-2013, 19:15

I used chip fat grade oil to run in essentially, pretty much what you looking at, aldi special mineral stuff, worked a charm

Enlighten me coops

Nottswoody

17-03-2013, 09:05

Let the transplant begin.. Should have it out today got till 4pm today the mrs says :) let battle commence..

Tony Walker

17-03-2013, 09:11

Let the transplant begin.. Should have it out today got till 4pm today the mrs says :) let battle commence..

good luck:agree:

Nottswoody

17-03-2013, 15:36

Rained off :( but started stripping and cleaning like its never been cleaned before.. How hard isit to do the seals on a tomcat? There is very little movement in the shaft it just smokes when I leave it in gear slowing down. No mad rush as I have a t28 on the way but would be a great spare.. Back at it tomorrow just the shaft and mounts and stated motor to disconnect then out.. Surprised me how much stuff there is as iv built a different bare block engine.. All in all not too bad..

chris

17-03-2013, 16:56

Well done mate we had bloody snow here

Nottswoody

18-03-2013, 15:04

Engines out :) now a mass clean on all parts needed for my new block. There was a massive oil leak on the turbo oil feed at the front everything's bloody coverd :mad: clean clean clean.. Waiting on parts now before she can go back in :) backs killing me.. Not the brightest idea doing it on my own I was worried it was going through the screen.. Iv only got a scaffold A frame and tackle.. Still half way there now. Happy days so far..

Nottswoody

19-03-2013, 08:57

GTphil

19-03-2013, 11:49

Guys.. You know when you move the expansion bottle to we're the standard air box used to be did you just use that backet? Did you shorten the pipes? Any other little mods I can do while the engines out?

I used the original bracket it just needed a little trim with the grinder first;) pipework wise i think from memory i just swapped both the bottom pipes on the header around. Loads of other potential changes, a few people have removed the swirl pot, you could remove the bracket that's on the end plate on the cylinder head. It really is personal preference :)

Nottswoody

19-03-2013, 17:39

I used the original bracket it just needed a little trim with the grinder first;) pipework wise i think from memory i just swapped both the bottom pipes on the header around. Loads of other potential changes, a few people have removed the swirl pot, you could remove the bracket that's on the end plate on the cylinder head. It really is personal preference :)

Cheers phil :)

Can any mods go into my photos and upload my pictures? I think it will be back in the car for Thursday just waiting on the Volvo clutch and soft pedal from our man mike and the t28 off Marky mark.. Then were hopefully running :)

Nottswoody

20-03-2013, 09:11

Great it's bloody snowing here.. Today is not going tobe fun at all so much for the 1st day of spring.

Nottswoody

20-03-2013, 11:57

Right then thanks to mike@gtturbospares my Volvo clutch and soft pedal just turned up.. Has anyone got a pic of how I fit the bracket? Trying to fit this now :)

Nad-5GTT

20-03-2013, 12:21

This thread needs pics, come on :D

Nottswoody

20-03-2013, 12:26

This thread needs pics, come on :D

Look in my pics I only have an iPhone and my photo bucket kicked me out.

Nottswoody

20-03-2013, 12:27

Right iv worked out the bit to the box but the pedal part is too thick for the bearing do I grind the pedal to fit the bearing like the old pedal?