View Full Version : Turbo porblems, turbo company are telling me you should not adjust actuator?
gttjames
22-12-2012, 10:24
Hi guys, im after abit of advice please. As some of you may be aware, my turbo let go not to long ago, it only covered around 2.5k at 12/13psi - when i originally got the turbo i told them i want to run 20/22psi max, more than likely jsut 20psi and low lag, so they provided me with a t25.47 - i run it at 12/13psi for, then when i get my afr gauge all set up etc i started playing with the carb, i thought it was the norm to adjust the actuator for more boost? Seen it done everywhere, people on here told me to etc read guides on adjusting actuator for more boost. Anyway wound it out a few more turns, and using the vacum/pressure tester tool at work plugged it up and pumped up to 14psi at which point the actuator opened, i then wound it a few more turns and noticed it still only opened at 14psi, so i wound it back a couple of turns to where it opened at 14psi but was closer to standard positon if that makes sense. So there was a few threads left ona ctuator arm. I run it like this for 100/150miles - and came on here, or spoke to marky mark (i think) and he said to just use a bleed valve, so i did, used a bleed valve, half adjustments at a time until i was upto 18psi on my in car gauge - Loved it, but it only lasted about 20miles, before it started smoking. So took it off noticed the side to side movement so the turbo company told me to send it back.
After a week they rung up and 1st conversation went like this
'Hi james yer your turbo isnt looking good, have you adjusted boost to other than standard'.
Yes i said, i bought it off you originally and told you i wanted to run 20psi and this is the turbo unit you recomended'.
'oh really? well it looks like the actuator might have caused the problem as youv adjusted it'.
i said yes i have adjusted it upto 14psi via actuator.
'oh well the actuator isnt strong enough for 20psi'
ok i said, well why wasnt i provided with a actuator suitable for 20psi as that is what i stated on my order'
'urm well if thats the case i will need to have a word with my staff and see whats going on'
So i forwarded a email conversation i ahd with them which has me stating i want to run 20-22psi, to prove i wasnt making that up. And this is the reply i got
Hello James,
The e-mail I sent you regarding the boost capability of the turbo was relating to just that, not relating to adjustment of the actuator. If you required 20-22 psi of boost the requirements to achieve this level would either be fitting an actuator of this static setting or the use of a boost controller. The threaded adjuster on the actuator is for setting the static preload, which is normally 2-4mm, not to alter the boost pressure which most people think it is for! By winding the rod in you are effectively altering the pressure on the spring and the worst case is making the spring coil bound, which does not allow enough rod travel which can lead to over boost and over speed of the turbo. This is what we would attribute the failure of the turbo when analyzing the failure of your unit.
So can anyone shed some light on this, what there saying may well be true? but iv seen people adjust actuators everwhere etc, or are they feeding me some bull?
Even if my actuator wasnt good enough, im still thinking they provided this knwoing i want to run 20psi - so should of told me 'use a bleed valve' or provided me with a actuator for the stated level of boost?
Any input would be helpfull, cheers!
Tony Walker
22-12-2012, 10:50
Regardless of the rods adjustment if you havent exceeded the 20psi you said you were going to use it for then the turbo has been nowhere near the speed/pressure you requested.
Tony Walker
22-12-2012, 10:51
Have you seen the pressure spike? or does it limit to a particular pressure?
Regardless of the rods adjustment if you havent exceeded the 20psi you said you were going to use it for then the turbo has been nowhere near the speed/pressure you requested.
bob on :agree:
if you have not exceeded 20 psi,and the turbo has overspeeded, then its there cock up for selling you a unit that was not fit for purpose that you requested when the purchase was made, however have you any proof apart from a verbal conversation on the phone, as most will try and wiggle out of it,so to speak:(, read the warenty that came with the unit, ie the small print:( how old is the unit?
Load of ****, typical turbo place excuses so they dont honour the warranty. If the actualtor would only hold 14lb then thats not exactly mega boost.
Im suprised they didnt push the old oil pressure is low etc thats what they usually say.
I run a -34 actuator with about 15mm preload to see the required 25lb boost. I bet the turbo was just a ****ty rebuild that has give up after some decent boost.
As above, you told then what you wanted it for, if it can produce 20psi then it should regardless of how you made it do it., mechanical failure due to chocolate interials i suspect. I had a issue with a company call turbo active who were supposed to be garrett approved. After it failed the second time i told then if it happens again i would send it to garrett and get a failure report on it. Funny enough it never failed again!
Stick to your guns mate or they will have you pants down.
I had a similar situation,same turbo,same company.When I placed the order I told them I wanted to run 20lb boost with no bleed.The first actuator was fixed,when I rang them and told them what I had ordered, they really didn't want to supply me with an adjustable actuator.In the end they did but it was the same as the first one just adjustable.Will only hold 14/16psi before boost becomes uncontrollable.
gttjames
22-12-2012, 12:37
Thanks for the quick replies. As suspected they are trying to wiggle. The turbo is over the 12months warranty, but has done low boost and low miles. Which when i told them i phone i know its past the 12months, they said to send it in anyway as it was low miles.
They asked a few questions originally, do you have a standard feed hose 'nope i have a braided' good they said, and i said before you ask i allways primed the oil feed and do regualr oil and filter changes, and i have a oil pressure gauge in car which i allways keep an eye on and oil pressure is spot on.
Regardless of it failing, like we have all said, i asked for a turbo which i will run at 20-22psi - they provided a unit not fit for purpose.
Yes casper i know about your issues i remmeber reading your thread. Well i havnt named the turbo company yet, hopefully they sort it out properly and keep a good name for themselves. I will try ringing monday (or might be in the new year now) and see what they have to say. Il keep you guys informed of the outcome if anyone is interested.
gttjames
22-12-2012, 12:38
bob on :agree:
if you have not exceeded 20 psi,and the turbo has overspeeded, then its there cock up for selling you a unit that was not fit for purpose that you requested when the purchase was made, however have you any proof apart from a verbal conversation on the phone, as most will try and wiggle out of it,so to speak:(, read the warenty that came with the unit, ie the small print:( how old is the unit?
Well Handy, i have more than a verbal conversation, i have a email stating i want to run 20-22psi, and an email with a reply from them recomending this turbo. So alot better than 'i told you on phone'
gttjames
22-12-2012, 12:46
But this has got me abit confussed, is what there saying 'If you required 20-22 psi of boost the requirements to achieve this level would either be fitting an actuator of this static setting or the use of a boost controller. The threaded adjuster on the actuator is for setting the static preload, which is normally 2-4mm, not to alter the boost pressure which most people think it is for! By winding the rod in you are effectively altering the pressure on the spring and the worst case is making the spring coil bound, which does not allow enough rod travel which can lead to over boost and over speed of the turbo.'
got any truth to it? for future reference can i run 20psi on a actuator or should i allways use a blead valve :confused:
So yes altering the spring pressure, meaing it wont open unitl higher boost levels? Which is what its for? And surely if mine was overboosting id have known about it, my boost gauge would of showin it running silly boost? But i checked its function with a pressure tester and actuator rod was opening at 14psi - so was clearly working
Nottswoody
22-12-2012, 13:57
I have a t25.49 tomcat and run 20psi all day everyday with the -31 actuator wound in.. No probs so far after a year of very hard driving daily.. As mentioned before sounds like there trying to get out of the warranty..
if you have not exceeded 20 psiUnless you had a boost leak and it was spinning too fast trying to make pressure it never could.
Or excessive rich fuel which gets into the oil and apparently wear the turbo bearings quite fast.
The need for a stronger spring in the actuator is to stop waste gate creep. More boost may require a stronger spring or it'd be slow to boost as the waste gate will be pushed open by the exhaust pressure.
They are correct that if you wound it in too far the boost won't be controlled and you should see high boost, maybe unless it's a small turbo and your engine is big valve and tall cam with high gas flow, etc.
The correct way to do it is to use an appropriate spring. Harder for higher boost. A larger diameter actuator as well will prevent waste gate creep as the spring pressure is much higher but still opens at 15psi, or whatever, due the larger cross sectional area of the diaphragm. 2 inch area, 15psi = 30 lb of pressure just moves a 30 lb spring. 4 inch area, 15psi = 60 lb of pressure and a 60 lb spring. That holds twice the pressure against the wastegate and prevents or reduces creep.
gttjames
22-12-2012, 15:47
I have a t25.49 tomcat and run 20psi all day everyday with the -31 actuator wound in.. No probs so far after a year of very hard driving daily.. As mentioned before sounds like there trying to get out of the warranty..
yes mate think we have established that just trying to learn correct way to run more boost for future
out of interest how do you find the full t25, what is it liek compared to other turbos youv used, i may go this route but when does it spool and full boost by?
gttjames
22-12-2012, 15:51
Unless you had a boost leak and it was spinning too fast trying to make pressure it never could.
Or excessive rich fuel which gets into the oil and apparently wear the turbo bearings quite fast.
The need for a stronger spring in the actuator is to stop waste gate creep. More boost may require a stronger spring or it'd be slow to boost as the waste gate will be pushed open by the exhaust pressure.
They are correct that if you wound it in too far the boost won't be controlled and you should see high boost, maybe unless it's a small turbo and your engine is big valve and tall cam with high gas flow, etc.
The correct way to do it is to use an appropriate spring. Harder for higher boost. A larger diameter actuator as well will prevent waste gate creep as the spring pressure is much higher but still opens at 15psi, or whatever, due the larger cross sectional area of the diaphragm. 2 inch area, 15psi = 30 lb of pressure just moves a 30 lb spring. 4 inch area, 15psi = 60 lb of pressure and a 60 lb spring. That holds twice the pressure against the wastegate and prevents or reduces creep.
I have checked for a boost leak, i work at a main dealers so have access to good tools, i went from the trubo to other side of intercooler with a pressure tester, all fine, used vacum/presure tester on all other hoses and vacum hoses, all fine. So am pretty certain no boost leak, most the hosses are new and clips as i did my own front mount.
So like you see, i should of seen high boost which i did not, and also i checked the actuator function with a tester, i could pump it upto 14psi, then a small pump more and i could see it manually move the rod - it was working and openign at 14psi - so no over boosting, and also when on road, my standard oe gauge wouldnt go max at this point and my aftermarket gauge showed 14psi peak, so no signs of overboosting at all from what i can see/have checked.
I then added in a bleed valve and started with it fully wound in, it made no difference like it should, then half a turn until i got more boost, gradual adjustments and got to 18psi and was happy to stay there, did a few runs to get afr readings etc, took it home, leaving it to idle and i disovered the heavy smoke after idling for 30 seconds. Il see what they say next time i speak to them. cheers again guys for the iunput
Do you have a dump valve? They can leak.
The bit I found hard to believe was that they told me they couldn't supply a actuator capable of holding 20psi without boost control.I'm running the actuator right on its limit which is 16psi anymore and boost levels go crazy.Fueling is set up for around 20psi so I'm either going to have to bleed the rest off,which I didn't want to do,or buy an actuator that will hold 20psi.
Nottswoody
22-12-2012, 18:44
yes mate think we have established that just trying to learn correct way to run more boost for future
out of interest how do you find the full t25, what is it liek compared to other turbos youv used, i may go this route but when does it spool and full boost by?
Starts at 3000 and full by about 4 to 4500 and keeps pulling the little 1.4 all the way more than quick enough for the road you just have to re learn your distances as things come up a lot sooner when pushing the engine harder to get the boost up as I mentioned 18-20psi is mucho fun :) Definatley need a cam for more fun though but for everyday city driving its more than enough fun and I haven't been shown up or left behind by any bigger motor yet :)
Brilliant turbocharger, would like to get another as a spare :) good cheap upgrade for the 5 :)
gttjames
23-12-2012, 11:55
The bit I found hard to believe was that they told me they couldn't supply a actuator capable of holding 20psi without boost control.I'm running the actuator right on its limit which is 16psi anymore and boost levels go crazy.Fueling is set up for around 20psi so I'm either going to have to bleed the rest off,which I didn't want to do,or buy an actuator that will hold 20psi.
well by the sounds of it they where just trying to persuade you to run less boost?
gttjames
23-12-2012, 11:57
Do you have a dump valve? They can leak.
no, for this reason i dont have a dump valve as read about just another place for a boost leak. Also when i bought he turbo i asked if i should run a dv or not and they said it didnt matter either way
is the company in question turbo technics?
if so I have had similar experiences with them over 2 turbo failures after running the boost pressure stated they could handle...which both seemed to fail due to cheap chocolate internals but they pull the oil contamination, low oil pressure, overspeed lines both times.
They get really pissed off if you ask for the manager and tell them you want the unit back how it was delivered so you can send it away for an independent inspection as you don't believe them, then funny enough they start to play ball with you
gttjames
23-12-2012, 19:45
is the company in question turbo technics?
if so I have had similar experiences with them over 2 turbo failures after running the boost pressure stated they could handle...which both seemed to fail due to cheap chocolate internals but they pull the oil contamination, low oil pressure, overspeed lines both times.
They get really pissed off if you ask for the manager and tell them you want the unit back how it was delivered so you can send it away for an independent inspection as you don't believe them, then funny enough they start to play ball with you
yer seems that might be the way i will go, cheers fordy. But no its not turbo technics. Im not sure if there open tomorrow but il give them a call and see what they say if they are open.
In my experience mate its better to sort problems like these face to face and quick too. Ask for the turbo back and say its going for an independent inspection, and say you will bring the report in to them on completion, and also state that if the component failure is down to faulty goods that you will expect them to pay the costs of the independent inspection. I think it'll save u a lot of time and effort in the long run.
Good luck fella.
gttjames
23-12-2012, 21:49
In my experience mate its better to sort problems like these face to face and quick too. Ask for the turbo back and say its going for an independent inspection, and say you will bring the report in to them on completion, and also state that if the component failure is down to faulty goods that you will expect them to pay the costs of the independent inspection. I think it'll save u a lot of time and effort in the long run.
Good luck fella.
thats another good point, trouble is the company is a 3 hour drive away so face to face isnt a option. I will tell them my opinion and if they give me the bird then il ask for the turbo to be sent back as it was delievered to them and like you say above say i am getting a independent inspection etc etc
cheers
Hopefully they'll be fine, but a mention of trading standards sends a shiver down most managers spines lol. Keep us updated pal.
Tony Walker
23-12-2012, 23:08
maybe get them to send some pics of it apart before you tell them your getting it independantly inspected..... they could easily build it back up with some other old spare bearings or something.
Tony Walker
23-12-2012, 23:09
are the journals on the shaft screwed? or just the bearings? damaged fins on the wheels?
gttjames
24-12-2012, 10:12
Well wasnt sure if thered be open today or not (im working :( ) so i just tried them, no answer so i think therel be shut til new year so will try then.
Well im not just going to mention trading standards etc straight away - il argue my point as - they didnt supply what we agreed a '20psi turbo' simple as that and the fact the actuator rod only held 14psi means it never exceeded 20psi etc so there issue. Il try and work it out with them.
Got point tony, so far the brief convo we had was 'yer the turbo's not good james' so i will be asking exactly what needs doing/whats broken, and if need be will ask for pics 1st etc, then if still doesnt go anywhere i will be asking for the unit back for a independent inspection and i am prepaired if need be to take it further as i have proof with emails stating i wanted a 20psi turbo which they ahve not provided. Il update thsi thread when i next speak to them.
What's special about 20psi? Genuine question. Does that equate to a given power level you're after?
What spec' is the turbo?
Any reason why the company in question hasn't been named?
gttjames
25-12-2012, 14:19
What's special about 20psi? Genuine question. Does that equate to a given power level you're after?
What spec' is the turbo?
Any reason why the company in question hasn't been named?
No reason why I havnt named the company - just thought I wouldn't yet to see if they sorted me out or not. Also if I name the company if anyone has a opinion already then there set like that, whereas if I don't name the company it should give general oponions and not biased.
Nothing special about 20psi, but just around the area I want. (if it happens to fuel and perform well at 19psi il stick there say) but when I got this turbo it was a upgrade over a standard t2. I wasn't keen on the idea of loads of lag and 20psi area is AROUND 200bhp and can pull a 13 1/4 mile - that's what I want. So when they asked what I wanted, I said I aim to run 20psi and want low lag - and this is the turbo they suggested. Im not massive on turbo spec's so went with it.
They sold it as a t25 with a .47 rear housing. I cant remember measurements I took, but it looks like a t25 front, with a standard size wheel going through it with a .47 rear
20psi area is AROUND 200bhp That doesn't really follow.
My original T2 with a (possibly) Nissan Silvia compressor wheel in bored T2 housing made 186bhp at 15psi at 8000 revs on a 1.3 litre engine.
Brads 5GTT 1.4 litre engine made 244 at about 18psi (with VNT).
Many 5GTT owners bolt on a load of parts and make 25psi and only perhaps 150bhp.
Boost doesn't equate directly to a power level. The package as a whole, from inlet to tailpipe, is what makes the power.
gttjames
26-12-2012, 17:19
That doesn't really follow.
My original T2 with a (possibly) Nissan Silvia compressor wheel in bored T2 housing made 186bhp at 15psi at 8000 revs on a 1.3 litre engine.
Brads 5GTT 1.4 litre engine made 244 at about 18psi (with VNT).
Many 5GTT owners bolt on a load of parts and make 25psi and only perhaps 150bhp.
Boost doesn't equate directly to a power level. The package as a whole, from inlet to tailpipe, is what makes the power.
hence the capitals 'AROUND' - I know you cant just run 20psi and get 200bhp, but it is around the boost level I wanted to run so asked for it, and iv done other mods to get hopefully around 200bhp
but this thread isn't about 'will 20psi be 200bhp'
if im going to be honest,if you intend to run 20psi or more in the future, a rollerbearing unit will take it a lot better than a journal type, no matter how well its balanced. and after a couple of rebuilds,will work out cheaper too;)
markey b
07-01-2013, 17:33
if im going to be honest,if you intend to run 20psi or more in the future, a rollerbearing unit will take it a lot better than a journal type, no matter how well its balanced. and after a couple of rebuilds,will work out cheaper too;)
my VNT has done 7 years of hard abuse at 27psi... only now is it smoking like a crack pipe, and back in the day it was my daily, did 10k in the first year of owning it, its only the last couple of years i've had the luxury of alternate transport so its taken a back seat :laugh:
gttjames
08-01-2013, 19:33
if im going to be honest,if you intend to run 20psi or more in the future, a rollerbearing unit will take it a lot better than a journal type, no matter how well its balanced. and after a couple of rebuilds,will work out cheaper too;)
cheers for the advice - a few years back when i bought his turbo - i was new to turbo's etc and didnt know any better, this is what they suggested.
gttjames
08-01-2013, 19:36
finally got a response, this is the message i sent them, not mentionig trading standards or anything yet....
Hi Craig, thanks for reply. I spoke to Oli earlier in the week and he said to contact you and you would be back on wednesday.
Iv got to disagree on adjustment of the actuator - it adjusts the pressure on the spring and which point it opens - and when i set it up i used a vacum/pressure pump to see exactly what was going on. The actuator rod was never took to maximum, and i discovered that even winding further adjustment this actuator could only hold around 14psi i think it was. It was fine then and i could see when testing - pumped up to 13/14psi and it opened. So coil was not bound or jammed. But whatever way you want to look at it, the turbo has never exceeded 20 let alone 22psi so it hasnt been anywhere near the speed/pressure i requested at purchase.
Even after the turbo failed i still did checks on actuator etc and found no problems with its operation. And just to confirm i have a OE boost gauge on dash and a aftermarket unit plumbed in and boost levels never went over. I am now running my standard turbo which was bolted on and no issues now, no boost leak etc, it is running 14psi on standard turbo by actuator adjustment and has run fine, even before your turbo was fitted it ran this boost level for ages like this with it being adjusted via the actuator.
this is the companys reply
Hello James,
I have looked at the turbo again and there is around 20mm of preload on the actuator which is not even remotely correct, this would limit the travel on the actuator and can cause over speed as the valve is not opening correctly, yes there may some minimal travel but the unit cannot work correct in its current state. If you require more boost pressure the only correct methods are via boost controller or a stronger actuator. The adjustment on the rod is not for adjusting boost pressure, it is for preload on the actuator for setting the static pressure which as I said before should be around 3-4mm not 20mm!
this is the companys reply
Hello James, I have looked at the turbo again and there is around 20mm of preload on the actuator which is not even remotely correct, this would limit the travel on the actuator and can cause over speed as the valve is not opening correctly, yes there may some minimal travel but the unit cannot work correct in itscurrent state. If you require more boost pressure the only correct methods are via boost controller or a stronger actuator. The adjustment on the rod is not for adjusting boost pressure, it is for preload on the actuator for s
etting the static pressure which as I said before should be around 3-4mm not 20mm!
So going on this the actuator I received off them today should hold 18psi with no bleed and minimum preload.Will let you no.:coffee:
Tony Walker
08-01-2013, 22:06
i think there trying to suggest the turbo oversped because the wastegate couldnt open to stop the turbo creeping at higher rpm but if you havent seen more than 20psi then regardless of actuator control it wasnt up to the specification requested. even if it had no actuator on it at all.... if theres no boost leaks and never been up to 20psi then theres something amiss.
by no actuator i kinda mean wastegate closed solid(which is the opposite but there we go lol)
yep typical turbo company cop out:(
i would be asking the question, why was it not supplied with a actuator designed to run 20psi in the first place:(, youve got a proof of specification requested, i would threaten them with a third party inspection of the faulty unit ,and depending on outcome, maybe a call to trading standards, might get there attention :D this might have been mentioned already in this thread,but im to tired to scroll through it again:sad:
Just been for a quick blast after fitting the actuator,5mm preload holds 20psi.They can do it.:agree:
gttjames
09-01-2013, 16:45
Just been for a quick blast after fitting the actuator,5mm preload holds 20psi.They can do it.:agree:
is that the same actuator supplied from them or different??:confused:
gttjames
09-01-2013, 16:47
yep typical turbo company cop out:(
i would be asking the question, why was it not supplied with a actuator designed to run 20psi in the first place:(, youve got a proof of specification requested, i would threaten them with a third party inspection of the faulty unit ,and depending on outcome, maybe a call to trading standards, might get there attention :D this might have been mentioned already in this thread,but im to tired to scroll through it again:sad:
yer i am going to use that as my next step why wasnt it supplied with correct actuator before trading standard spiel - and another turbo company would jsut say its ****ed, we all know its knackered, problem is gettingt hem to admit they should of supplied a stronger turbo or a better actuator
gttjames
09-01-2013, 16:47
i think there trying to suggest the turbo oversped because the wastegate couldnt open to stop the turbo creeping at higher rpm but if you havent seen more than 20psi then regardless of actuator control it wasnt up to the specification requested. even if it had no actuator on it at all.... if theres no boost leaks and never been up to 20psi then theres something amiss.
by no actuator i kinda mean wastegate closed solid(which is the opposite but there we go lol)
they dont seem to be agreeing to this tony, iv stated 'regardless of rod position, it never went over stated boost, ever'
is that the same actuator supplied from them or different??:confused:
This is the 3rd,first one was fixed,2nd would only hold 14psi.This one seems ok.
gttjames
11-01-2013, 21:22
right well this is my reply
Hi Craig,
'can cause over speed as the valve is not opening correctly' - it is a max boost 14psi actuator - thats all it can hold! Plug a pressure tester onto the actuator now, pump it up and you will visibly see the rod moving... opening the actuator thus venting the boost pressure. Again going back on your quote, if the 'valve is not opening correctly' i would of seen it spike/overboost on my boost guage, this never happened. At which point has the turbo gone over the 20/22psi boost level it was intended for? As im the only person to own/use it and i have monitered everything - it has never seen more than stated boost, so you talking of actuator adjustment is not relevent. Simple facts are it was bought with intention of running 20 psi, i was told this unit would hold 25psi no problem but ideally rated to 20psi - it has never gone above this regardless of the rods position therefore has not oversped. Again - at which point has it gone over the stated boost? It was not fit for purpose.
Me as a customer spoke to your company regarding a turbo, i told you my needs, 20psi area, you recomended this turbo and boost level - yet you supplied me with a weak actuator, why wasnt it supplied with a actuator able to hold 20psi? Again this is not fit for purpose, i paid my money for a '20psi turbo' - i was not supplied with this.
and this i what i got back today
The turbocharger can over speed without reaching a high boost level, when the waste gate valve doesn’t open fully the continues to try and make boost but cannot achieve the desired level in this case 20 psi. The rod needs to open with the correct travel, it may have been moving but not enough, yes the actuator may be lower than 20Psi, but in general people use a boost controller or bleed valve to achieve a higher boost target. The fact is the turbo was functioning correctly until the actuator was adjusted and then lasted 20 miles tends to speak for itself. If needs be we can quote for repair, we are more than happy to help a little due to the low mileage but bearing in mind the turbo is out of the year old warranty we cannot cover the unit under any sort of warranty. let us know what you would like us to do...
So im at the point - do i give up,. or fight on. I really could do with a reply from adamL or similar to confirm to me there talking crap or if there right. - theres alot more people who know more about turbos than me. If people say there wrong etc then i will now get arsey and go down the route of telling them that 'i am not happy, i want unit back, i will get an independent inspection and provide them with details of what i asked for as a customor, and if they agree with me i will take them to court'
but before i do all that and draft up a good well written email i could do with knowing if im wrong or right.
Also if someone like adaml does get in contact with me, dont worry i wont tarnish your name and say 'adaml form .... told me that your wrong blah blah blah' i wouldnt do that. Just need some proper advice. Cheers for all the help so far
Feel sorry for you mate your haveing a nightmare with them i honestly thought that adjusting actuator is the way everyone gains umore boost
I'd fight tooth and nail to get them to repair it for free- after all it isn't fit for purpose as you've stated.
Another thing to do is find out if any other previous customers have been fobbed off- see what they done for them.
In my opinion its better to go down to the store-if its nearby and speak to the manager face to face and argue your point directly to him. If you arent happy with what they say explain to him that your next move is reporting them to trading standards.
An independent inspection report is deinately the first thing to do and to make sure they aren't muggin you off.
Tony Walker
11-01-2013, 22:50
If it wasn't opening enough you would get boost creep as the revs increase the wastegate can't get rid of thegases if it ccan't open enough. This means higher up the rev range the pressure would increase but it's not been over 14psi then the wastegate adjustment is still irrelevant.
gttjames
12-01-2013, 17:30
I'd fight tooth and nail to get them to repair it for free- after all it isn't fit for purpose as you've stated.
Another thing to do is find out if any other previous customers have been fobbed off- see what they done for them.
In my opinion its better to go down to the store-if its nearby and speak to the manager face to face and argue your point directly to him. If you arent happy with what they say explain to him that your next move is reporting them to trading standards.
An independent inspection report is deinately the first thing to do and to make sure they aren't muggin you off.
there 3hours from me so no chance of face to face. I dont know weather to carry on being polite and just ask them to rebuild it for 'cheap'
but again i dont trust the turbo now and dont want to pay more money to them and it goes wrong.
Im all up for threatening with legal action etc as it wasnt fit for purpose BUT the big but here is if im correct in what im saying which i think i am
gttjames
12-01-2013, 17:34
If it wasn't opening enough you would get boost creep as the revs increase the wastegate can't get rid of thegases if it ccan't open enough. This means higher up the rev range the pressure would increase but it's not been over 14psi then the wastegate adjustment is still irrelevant.
this is it tony, iv clearly said to them the rod was moving, therefore opening and boost gauge would of shown it overboosting, therefore the turbo has not oversped and no overboosting has occured in which case turbo is no good and should be replaced.
and its a actuator that only holds 14psi - thats it, thats all it can hold and then opens, virtually impossible to overboost unless there was a boost leak or the actuator was jammed but neither of these is the case
This whole situation is like mud.
Why would they agree to a discounted rebuild based on the unit's low mileage if they truly believed that the turbo had been damaged due to the actuator issues they cite?? Over-speeding can kill a turbo in very few miles. It doesn't make sense to say one thing on account of the other.
However, the unit is out of warranty. That's the real problem for you here James IMO.
To stand a chance in court you'll need to keep and produce the correspondence that proves what they sold you in the first instance was not fit for purpose and try to get some evidence/clarity from another turbo company regarding this over-speeding issue.
I'm not sure how the court will view your tinkering though. They might decide as you're not a qualified mechanic, that you shouldn't have adjusted the actuator yourself and should have instead contacted the turbo company when you realised the unit wasn't set to the 20psi from the factory that you'd requested. It's been a year, you're out of warranty and you've altered the unit yourself...hmmm
I happen to think you're in the right here however and the over-speeding stuff is hooey but it's not clear cut. I'll be really interested to know the technical truth behind this actuator/over-speed lark.
I think trevs rite the fact that you have adjusted anything has made you liable for turbos failiure i would get turbo back from them send it to adams place ring them first obviously and see what they say i dont think i would spend another penny with this companey even if they say they will do it cheaper its just principle i think you will have to just take this on the chin mate
gttjames
13-01-2013, 01:34
This whole situation is like mud.
Why would they agree to a discounted rebuild based on the unit's low mileage if they truly believed that the turbo had been damaged due to the actuator issues they cite?? Over-speeding can kill a turbo in very few miles. It doesn't make sense to say one thing on account of the other.
However, the unit is out of warranty. That's the real problem for you here James IMO.
To stand a chance in court you'll need to keep and produce the correspondence that proves what they sold you in the first instance was not fit for purpose and try to get some evidence/clarity from another turbo company regarding this over-speeding issue.
I'm not sure how the court will view your tinkering though. They might decide as you're not a qualified mechanic, that you shouldn't have adjusted the actuator yourself and should have instead contacted the turbo company when you realised the unit wasn't set to the 20psi from the factory that you'd requested. It's been a year, you're out of warranty and you've altered the unit yourself...hmmm
I happen to think you're in the right here however and the over-speeding stuff is hooey but it's not clear cut. I'll be really interested to know the technical truth behind this actuator/over-speed lark.
i am a qualified mechanic, national diploma at college - and qualified volvo tech - i have all the equipment at work like pressure pump etc which i used to adjust actuator so that bits fine and i am qualfied enough to know all of that. BUT like you say i dont work at a turbo company so others will be more clued up about turbos - i to would like to know the whole truth behind 'actuator/over-speed lark' - that would clear a few things up, if anyones friendly with adamL maybe get his input (again im not asking him to diss another company as nothing has been name, would just like the real truth on actuator adjustment)
As from all info i can gather is there wrong, loads of guides online to adjusting actuator, guide on here saying to adjust it, iv run my standard t2 on standard actuator adjusted to 15psi and its fine.
I know the unit is out of warranty - but thats not the point here, its looking like it failed because it couldnt hold the boost it was intended for so yes its out of warranty but the product if it has failed because of cheap internalls or whatever then it wasnt fit for purpose. And yer i am prepaired to ask for it back and just have to pay elswhere to rebuild it - but it could be worth a shot - big bit of info i need is the actuator adjustment larky??
Penfold aka The Dealer
13-01-2013, 08:50
James a friend of mine used to work for turbo technics, workshop manager or something, I will ask him what he thinks of the suituation an I will ask if it's ok for me to give you his contact details to speak directly to him, I will let you know
Ah, obviously I made an assumption you weren't a mechanic James, what are the odds, lol. This helps your case IMO and you could use that to your advantage :agree:
Those guides on adjustment and some sort of statement from another turbo aficionado/company would also help a lot.
So let's assume for a moment that the over-speed stuff they've come up with is twaddle. Then given everything else we already know, in court I think it would come down to the magistrate deciding that either the turbo company are liable due to the unit not being fit for purpose at the point of original sale, or you're out of luck since the turbo is out of warranty when you first made the complaint. You'd hope they'd side with you on it, especially if their technical excuses are pish.
I suppose the court might order some sort of compromise and since the turbo company have already offered something to try and jointly resolve the issue, they might view that favourably. :coffee:
Get the technical low-down before anything else and let us know as I'm intrigued.
Apart from the fact my blower seems to be working,both myself and James had similar issues.When I ordered mine James they actually talked me out of a full t25 and recommended this said t2/t25.Had issues like you with actuator except I saw really high boost levels with the actuator that could only hold 14lb.Still now 3 actuators later I still have more preload than they recommend to achieve 18psi.Like we spoke about when they offered to take the unit back and refund I should have taken them up on the offer.
gttjames
14-01-2013, 00:32
James a friend of mine used to work for turbo technics, workshop manager or something, I will ask him what he thinks of the suituation an I will ask if it's ok for me to give you his contact details to speak directly to him, I will let you know
thanks penfold that would be great for abit of advice, cheers
gttjames
14-01-2013, 00:34
Apart from the fact my blower seems to be working,both myself and James had similar issues.When I ordered mine James they actually talked me out of a full t25 and recommended this said t2/t25.Had issues like you with actuator except I saw really high boost levels with the actuator that could only hold 14lb.Still now 3 actuators later I still have more preload than they recommend to achieve 18psi.Like we spoke about when they offered to take the unit back and refund I should have taken them up on the offer.
exactly, well if yours goes make sure you wind actuator back down before sending for warranty claim lol
gttjames
14-01-2013, 00:36
Ah, obviously I made an assumption you weren't a mechanic James, what are the odds, lol. This helps your case IMO and you could use that to your advantage :agree:
Those guides on adjustment and some sort of statement from another turbo aficionado/company would also help a lot.
So let's assume for a moment that the over-speed stuff they've come up with is twaddle. Then given everything else we already know, in court I think it would come down to the magistrate deciding that either the turbo company are liable due to the unit not being fit for purpose at the point of original sale, or you're out of luck since the turbo is out of warranty when you first made the complaint. You'd hope they'd side with you on it, especially if their technical excuses are pish.
I suppose the court might order some sort of compromise and since the turbo company have already offered something to try and jointly resolve the issue, they might view that favourably. :coffee:
Get the technical low-down before anything else and let us know as I'm intrigued.
:) - totally agree with all that trev - need some info re actuator adjustment and go from there. IF there talking crap then I will just have to get abit more pushy and see where it gets me. As more info comes or anything develops I will update this thread for anyone interested.
Cheers everyone for input so far
gttjames
19-01-2013, 12:09
Right well a little update, not where I want but this isn't going to be easy. Had a good chat with 2 members off the forum, wont name names - but there both very well respected for there knowledge and both have been there and done it and still are. They both backed me up with the following -
-actuator can be adjusted to alter boost pressure
-I did it correctly by using a pump and visually watching the arm move and therefore open the wastegate
-If the actuator was adjusted to max and the spring bound/twisted/jammed it COULD stop the rod moving - but this is not the case as the actuator threads where never maxed out, and it was tested with the use of a pump and all moved. And I would of seen it overboosting like mad on my gauge, but this never happened.
-They also should of met my needs of 20psi by supplying a actuator capable of this
So it had been over a week since recieiving the last email, took it to a phone call yesterday. Bit of chat etc about the previous emails, I asked him to confirm his reason for it failing, he said because of simple wrong actuator adjustment and overspeed of turbo.
I explained to him all of the above - which he dismissed and said 'yes the actuator rod was opening - but because it had been adjusted on the threads, the rod wasn't opening fully so it oversped the turbo'
my reply to this was if it was opening it was opening and therefore dumping the boost pressure - as my gauge showed. He again didn't agree and said it would dump the boost but not as it should and it would overboost and I wouldn't see it on my boost gauge.
The total conversation went on for around 20mins, we both agree'd we where going round in circles and wernt getting anywhere. So we decided he was going to send turbo back.
I did abit of searching on trading standards and found a couple of things that relate -
When you buy goods from a trader or when goods are supplied as part of a service, you enter into a contract which is controlled by many laws including the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended). These laws give you certain (sometimes referred to as statutory) rights under this contract. Goods should be:
of satisfactory quality - goods should be free from defects, fit for the purpose for which they were supplied (in this case 20psi unit), safe and durable (2500 miles is not durable for a turbo). Appearance and finish is also taken into account
as described - goods should correspond with any description applied to them
fit for any purpose that is made known to the seller - goods must be fit for their general purpose and any particular purpose that a consumer makes known to the trader at the time of purchase (of which I requested a 20psi unit). For example if you buy a sleeping bag it must work as a sleeping bag. If you make it clear before you buy that you need it for -40 degree conditions and the trader states it will be suitable then it should be suitable
You are legally entitled to a refund, replacement or repair if goods do not conform to the contract, in other words are not of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or as described, but which remedy should you claim?
Right well a little update, not where I want but this isn't going to be easy. Had a good chat with 2 members off the forum, wont name names - but there both very well respected for there knowledge and both have been there and done it and still are. They both backed me up with the following -
-actuator can be adjusted to alter boost pressure
-I did it correctly by using a pump and visually watching the arm move and therefore open the wastegate
-If the actuator was adjusted to max and the spring bound/twisted/jammed it COULD stop the rod moving - but this is not the case as the actuator threads where never maxed out, and it was tested with the use of a pump and all moved. And I would of seen it overboosting like mad on my gauge, but this never happened.
-They also should of met my needs of 20psi by supplying a actuator capable of this
So it had been over a week since recieiving the last email, took it to a phone call yesterday. Bit of chat etc about the previous emails, I asked him to confirm his reason for it failing, he said because of simple wrong actuator adjustment and overspeed of turbo.
I explained to him all of the above - which he dismissed and said 'yes the actuator rod was opening - but because it had been adjusted on the threads, the rod wasn't opening fully so it oversped the turbo'
my reply to this was if it was opening it was opening and therefore dumping the boost pressure - as my gauge showed. He again didn't agree and said it would dump the boost but not as it should and it would overboost and I wouldn't see it on my boost gauge.
The total conversation went on for around 20mins, we both agree'd we where going round in circles and wernt getting anywhere. So we decided he was going to send turbo back.
I did abit of searching on trading standards and found a couple of things that relate -
When you buy goods from a trader or when goods are supplied as part of a service, you enter into a contract which is controlled by many laws including the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 (as amended). These laws give you certain (sometimes referred to as statutory) rights under this contract. Goods should be:
of satisfactory quality - goods should be free from defects, fit for the purpose for which they were supplied (in this case 20psi unit), safe and durable (2500 miles is not durable for a turbo). Appearance and finish is also taken into account
as described - goods should correspond with any description applied to them
fit for any purpose that is made known to the seller - goods must be fit for their general purpose and any particular purpose that a consumer makes known to the trader at the time of purchase (of which I requested a 20psi unit). For example if you buy a sleeping bag it must work as a sleeping bag. If you make it clear before you buy that you need it for -40 degree conditions and the trader states it will be suitable then it should be suitable
You are legally entitled to a refund, replacement or repair if goods do not conform to the contract, in other words are not of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or as described, but which remedy should you claim?
I can't understand why you think you can ask for a replacement FOC after using the unit for so long, which worked fine up till you messed with it, even if you ran it at a lower pressure than you wanted, it's out of any warranty (not that they are worth the paper they are printed on) & anything could have happened to it during that time really.
It's not like it was new & you banged it right to 20 psi & it popped or you found it wouldn't go to the boost pressure you wanted from day 1...
Or am I missing something ?:confused:
I feel for you but you are hoping I think...
So we're saying that their scenario is technically possible but that it hasn't happened in this case based on the evidence available? It doesn't get any easier this does it :laugh:
For me, what you were sold wasn't fit for purpose. The fact you didn't get around to adjusting it and discovering the problem (meaning that it had lain there undiscovered since day 1), until after the warranty had expired, is not your fault!
The one assumption my argument makes is that the adjustment was indeed done correctly and that adjusting actuators is an industry-accepted method for altering boost pressure (which we believe it is). If that's the case, they owe you a new unit IMO.
andybond
19-01-2013, 13:56
I would also add that EU law states that a two year warrenty is required not the standard one year
here (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1677034/Two-year-warranty-EU-law.html) are details
gttjames
19-01-2013, 18:32
So we're saying that their scenario is technically possible but that it hasn't happened in this case based on the evidence available? It doesn't get any easier this does it :laugh:
For me, what you were sold wasn't fit for purpose. The fact you didn't get around to adjusting it and discovering the problem (meaning that it had lain there undiscovered since day 1), until after the warranty had expired, is not your fault!
The one assumption my argument makes is that the adjustment was indeed done correctly and that adjusting actuators is an industry-accepted method for altering boost pressure (which we believe it is). If that's the case, they owe you a new unit IMO.
Bang on Andy - that's exactly how I see it aswell. I kind of caught him out on the phone as I had all the emails on paper in my hand, we both established the actuator spring wasn't jammed and was opening, but even though it was opening he said it oversped and I wouldn't see this on my boost gauge.... right ok mate....
cheers for link andy
gttjames
19-01-2013, 18:38
I can't understand why you think you can ask for a replacement FOC after using the unit for so long, which worked fine up till you messed with it, even if you ran it at a lower pressure than you wanted, it's out of any warranty (not that they are worth the paper they are printed on) & anything could have happened to it during that time really.
It's not like it was new & you banged it right to 20 psi & it popped or you found it wouldn't go to the boost pressure you wanted from day 1...
Or am I missing something ?:confused:
I feel for you but you are hoping I think...
I think you might be missing something steve, when I first joined the 5 scene it was all new to me, turbo's etc - im still not big on turbo specs etc, but IMO from what iv learnt I don't think a standard t2 with just a t25 front housing only should run at 20psi, considering its just a standard t2 journal bearing with a big front. I wouldn't recommend this to someone wanting 20spi.
The fact is steve I asked for 20psi - and I got 2500miles out of it at 12/13psi and then it **** itself when going over that - do you think £500 was well spent considering I have looked after and fitted the turbo correctly? I asked this question to Olli at the place and he said 'no 2500miles isn't acceptable but it oversped due to actuator adjustment so that's your fault'
IF everyone would of turned round and said I messed up I shouldn't of adjusted actuator, I should of used a bleed valve, then ok £500 lesson learnt, il suck it up. BUT its not like that is it.
Tony Walker
19-01-2013, 18:41
I've tried to explain previously. If the wastegate wasn't opening far enough then it could overspeed the turbo. It does this by not allowing enough exhaust gas to exit the wastegate thus the excess gases need to go through the turbine which then overspeeds the turbo..... This would be seen by the boost pressure creeping upwards as the rpm increased. Even if the turbo was going faster than the initial set 14psi so long as it never went over 20psi then there is no overspeed issue.
gttjames
19-01-2013, 18:48
I've tried to explain previously. If the wastegate wasn't opening far enough then it could overspeed the turbo. It does this by not allowing enough exhaust gas to exit the wastegate thus the excess gases need to go through the turbine which then overspeeds the turbo..... This would be seen by the boost pressure creeping upwards as the rpm increased. Even if the turbo was going faster than the initial set 14psi so long as it never went over 20psi then there is no overspeed issue.
Sorry for what might be a silly question, I see what your saying, but would I see this over speed issues on a boost gauge when driving? As there saying I wouldnt
Tony Walker
19-01-2013, 19:36
Yes. What does a turbo do when it goes faster
Tony Walker
19-01-2013, 19:38
Think like this too. 14 psi at 2000rpm is not the same as 14psi at 7000rpm.
The engine is using roughly 7 times the air volume at 7000 rpm than 1000rpm(very roughly speeking the flow isnt linear otherwise we'd all have ace power graphs) so to keep the engine at 14 psi at 7000rpm the turbo has to flow alot more air, this is when its spinning fastest.
gttjames
19-01-2013, 19:47
Yes. What does a turbo do when it goes faster
Think like this too. 14 psi at 2000rpm is not the same as 14psi at 7000rpm.
Well never saw any overboosting on gauge as would of stopped straight away, as I adjusted the actuator and then took for a spin boost increased, this showed on pump I set up with and boost gauge in car. So turbo never went over 20psi, therefore turbo failed as wasn't fit for purpose?
what does the 2nd part mean tony in relation to all this. Haha and I only take it to 6k - to much of a wimp
Tony Walker
19-01-2013, 19:51
sorry just explained on laptop couldnt be bothered typing on my phone lol.
and that adjusting actuators is an industry-accepted method for altering boost pressure (which we believe it is). If that's the case, they owe you a new unit IMO.
Technically, that's incorrect mate.
The 'industry standard' would be to fit a higher poundage rated spring.
Yes, the tuning world 'standard' is to adjust actuator pre-load/rod length to increase boost pressure (excluding any fitment of bleed valves/ebc's of course), but it is a 'bodge' way of doing it, and I'm afraid the manufacturer is right in this instance...certainly from a warranty point of view.
The correct way would've been to supply a 20psi rated spring/actuator, or use an ebc to increase boost, if a lower rated spring was present.
Thanks Mart. I knew there'd be something in what I said that wasn't quite right. :agree:
Now you say it, it seems obvious that the absolutely correct way to set boost pressure is by installing the correct spring (and appropriate rod length) in/on the actuator such that it holds 20psi from the factory.
So, James said to the supplier:
"told you i wanted to run 20psi and this is the turbo unit you recommended." The unit they supplied was not set according to the requirements (and seemingly incapable of meeting them without an additional piece of equipment).
Should James be held accountable for not getting in touch when originally discovering it wasn't set to the level he requested? As the customer he will have assumed that the unit was 'capable' (since that's what he'd asked for), and that it merely needed adjustment as and when appropriate. Maybe it was a happy coincidence as he wasn't ready to run 20psi so was ok with the turbo as it was, for the time being. The fact that attempted adjustment came after the warranty ran out, is an unhappy coincidence. In any case, the turbo company can't make the assumption that James will know which method of adjustment is the most appropriate in their professional opinion.
I don't know, it's difficult to call. I think the onus here still lies with the turbo company since it is not James' responsibility to understand the technical mistakes that the supplier made. If they didn't give him a unit running 20psi and did not supply adjustment advice (remembering that their method of choice for James is bleeding bodge, excuse the pun), then they should carry the can.
EDIT - of course this is assuming James has evidence of what was specified/agreed.
No, because he should've contacted the company the day he tried to run more than 14psi (or whatever the spring poundage was), and complained then that it wasn't producing the boost he initially requested.
Instead he adjusted the actuator rod/pre-load, so by default the warranty was therefore invalid. Simple as.
Not trying to sound harsh, as I know full well the shpiel that turbo companies come out with to get out of warranty claims, but on this occasion there isn't a leg to stand on.
Tony Walker
19-01-2013, 20:52
No, because he should've contacted the company the day he tried to run more than 14psi (or whatever the spring poundage was), and complained then that it wasn't producing the boost he initially requested.
Instead he adjusted the actuator rod/pre-load, so by default the warranty was therefore invalid. Simple as.
Not trying to sound harsh, as I know full well the shpiel that turbo companies come out with to get out of warranty claims, but on this occasion there isn't a leg to stand on.
:agree: i do agree with that, i dont agree with there reason for failure.
I haven't mentioned about the failure/over-speed ;)
Tony Walker
19-01-2013, 21:05
I haven't mentioned about the failure/over-speed ;)
Yeah i kno, your correct the fact that he's adjusted it at all and not just told them its not making 20psi please sort it is the downfall here and probably the point at which they'll fob him off, i just want to phone them and tell them how stupid they are.
Sorry to jump in but I complained straight away,now 3 actuators later and after overboosting they still haven't supplied me with what I asked for,there now saying I have a boost leak,at this rate my turbo could be out of warranty but have hardly any miles on it.They told me that 10mm preload to achieve boost is ok,which is a contradiction in what they have said previously.
Tony Walker
19-01-2013, 21:15
so it did overboost? at which point was this?
Did they supply the 3 actuators?
Did none of those actuators achieve more than 14psi?
so it did overboost? at which point was this?
Did they supply the 3 actuators?
Did none of those actuators achieve more than 14psi?
Sorry Tony,me and James have same turbo from same company with similar issues.In my case told them what I wanted ie 20psi with no bleed off.First actuator was fixed,second adjustable but only held 14psi,this is when I saw crazy overboost.Third actuator holds 18psi with about 10mm preload,there saying I have boost leak cos this actuator dosent open till 16/17psi and with 10mm preload they get 21 psi.Complete poop.
No, because he should've contacted the company the day he tried to run more than 14psi (or whatever the spring poundage was), and complained then that it wasn't producing the boost he initially requested.
Instead he adjusted the actuator rod/pre-load, so by default the warranty was therefore invalid. Simple as.
Not trying to sound harsh, as I know full well the shpiel that turbo companies come out with to get out of warranty claims, but on this occasion there isn't a leg to stand on.
But it would appear he did get in touch with the company when he first tried to run 20psi. It just happened to be a year after purchase. And how is he supposed to 'try' to run that pressure without adjusting something if it doesn't do it out of the box?
This isn't a warranty issue, it's a sale of goods act issue IMO.
Exactly the point - The turbo didn't hit the boost level, so he should've contacted the company to enquire why, without touching/adjusting anything on the turbo, not adjust the actuator willy nilly to see if it would then produce the goods.
Hence I'm guessing they're playing the usual 'tampering with this device will invalidate any warranty' card as their get-out clause.
As for 12 months down the line, good luck to anyone who tries to claim a warranty repair/replacement turbo after that duration...
As I said earlier in the thread, whilst the adjustment causes problems in this situation, I don't believe it is enough on its own to absolve the supplier of all responsibility (for the reasons stated). That's just my opinion
Getting refunds from turbo companies is difficult, warranty or no warranty. I'm not saying what will happen, I'm saying what I believe should happen.
Further, I'm sure the experts of this club have in the past advocated the adjustment of the actuator rod length, as both preferable to bleeding and as an acceptable method in any case. What has changed?
TNT ANDY
20-01-2013, 10:26
Further, I'm sure the experts of this club have in the past advocated the adjustment of the actuator rod length, as both preferable to bleeding and as an acceptable method in any case. What has changed?[/QUOTE]
Firstly - I wouldn't deem anybody on here as 'competent' or as 'expert', I do agree however that the lengthening or shortening of the actuator arm for many years has been a way that many people have adjusted boost pressure (successfully may I add - you may want to mention this to the company you're dealing with) So nothing has changed, we've been doing it for many years.
Hope you get this sorted, looking at your post I'd say stick at it and keep plodding away.
Further, I'm sure the experts of this club have in the past advocated the adjustment of the actuator rod length, as both preferable to bleeding and as an acceptable method in any case. What has changed?
Nothing, but as I said there's a difference between industry standard & tuning world standard:
Industry standard would be to fit a higher rated spring. Tuning world standard is to adjust rod length.
gttjames
20-01-2013, 11:15
Well a lot of good points being bought up, Still all looks a very 'grey area'
Like trev was explain, as a customer I told them my requirements of 20psi, they should of supplied a turbo capable of running this pressure and supplied the actuator capable of this aswell.
I did when on the phone to them explain I had a t2 which has pretty much the same actuator on it, and that's adjusted to run 13/14psi are and has been run like that for a long time and is still working fine.
But again guys its got to be said - hes saying it oversped and from what I read your replies I would of seen this on boost gauge, I didn't see any overboosting
gttjames
20-01-2013, 11:16
Yeah i kno, your correct the fact that he's adjusted it at all and not just told them its not making 20psi please sort it is the downfall here and probably the point at which they'll fob him off, i just want to phone them and tell them how stupid they are.
feel free to pm me for there number :laugh:
gttjames
20-01-2013, 11:20
[quote=Trevhib;309761]
So, James said to the supplier:
"told you i wanted to run 20psi and this is the turbo unit you recommended." The unit they supplied was not set according to the requirements (and seemingly incapable of meeting them without an additional piece of equipment).
Should James be held accountable for not getting in touch when originally discovering it wasn't set to the level he requested? As the customer he will have assumed that the unit was 'capable' (since that's what he'd asked for), and that it merely needed adjustment as and when appropriate. Maybe it was a happy coincidence as he wasn't ready to run 20psi so was ok with the turbo as it was, for the time being. The fact that attempted adjustment came after the warranty ran out, is an unhappy coincidence. In any case, the turbo company can't make the assumption that James will know which method of adjustment is the most appropriate in their professional opinion.
quote]
like you say trev, they should of provided a unit without needing any altering or more parts to run the demanded boost level. And being a turbo company who 'know it all' surely they would of said,
'heres your turbo, to run 20psi we recommend a bleed valve' - not....
'thanks for your payment, good luck' effectively
Nothing, but as I said there's a difference between industry standard & tuning world standard:
Industry standard would be to fit a higher rated spring. Tuning world standard is to adjust rod length.
Agreed.
So we have an industry supplier not applying the industry standard, with an expectation that the customer will understand which tuning standard they would have applied. And then we have the customer, who shouldn't be expected to know either of these things (and didn't).
Yes in an ideal world James should have contacted the company when he first fitted the turbo and realised it wasn't set at 20psi but not doing so was an unknowing response to a problem he didn't realise he had. For these reasons I don't think James should have to take full responsibility and the supplier none.
Exactly the point - The turbo didn't hit the boost level, so he should've contacted the company to enquire why, without touching/adjusting anything on the turbo, not adjust the actuator willy nilly to see if it would then produce the goods.
Hence I'm guessing they're playing the usual 'tampering with this device will invalidate any warranty' card as their get-out clause.
As for 12 months down the line, good luck to anyone who tries to claim a warranty repair/replacement turbo after that duration...
Which was the point I was trying to make :agree:
gttjames
20-01-2013, 20:29
Which was the point I was trying to make :agree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Exactly the point - The turbo didn't hit the boost level, so he should've contacted the company to enquire why, without touching/adjusting anything on the turbo, not adjust the actuator willy nilly to see if it would then produce the goods.
Hence I'm guessing they're playing the usual 'tampering with this device will invalidate any warranty' card as their get-out clause.
As for 12 months down the line, good luck to anyone who tries to claim a warranty repair/replacement turbo after that duration...
Which was the point I was trying to make :agree:
--- to be fair though I was and allways have been under impression actuator adjustment is fine. And I have a pm from steve aswell as he got me in touch with this turbo place - I pm'd him and he replied saying they should of supplied a strong enough actuator so should be fine. And... when adjusting actuator I checked with pressure pump, I noticed even if I went to max it would still only hold 14psi and open, so wound it back down before road testing so it wasn't fully adjusted.
gttjames
20-01-2013, 20:31
Nothing, but as I said there's a difference between industry standard & tuning world standard:
Industry standard would be to fit a higher rated spring. Tuning world standard is to adjust rod length.
so like trev is saying industry standard would be to fit correct actuator - why was I supplied with a standard actuator when the 20psi demand was made.
Also why is there so much adjustment on the rod when they 'should only have 2-3mm of preload'
gttjames
22-02-2013, 00:05
I got turbo back in the end - heres some pics iv took testing it on the bench for anone interested
actuator position - and pressure at when it starts to open
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/turbotecnics007_zps8957e225.jpg
actuator set to 12/13psi had no problems when like this
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/turbotecnics010_zpscd3ccf68.jpg
then the position I went to 3/4 treads from end of adjustment (still open, therefore must vent the boost?) picture isn't the best hence the screwdriver showing it is open more than picture shows
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/turbotecnics009_zps300bb848.jpg
Benjibrady
25-07-2013, 22:18
What was the outcome of this James? Im interested to find out if they wormed there way out or not or whether you managed to get a refund?
I gave cr turbos a touch of criticism in this thread so thought it only fair to praise them as well.Excellent work in the end.Put me a larger trim turbine wheel in( low inertia)transformed it.:agree:
Benjibrady
25-07-2013, 22:38
I gave cr turbos a touch of criticism in this thread so thought it only fair to praise them as well.Excellent work in the end.Put me a larger trim turbine wheel in( low inertia)transformed it.:agree:
Nice to hear at least one of you got a positive out come :agree:
TNT ANDY
26-07-2013, 06:37
Got to say, I've been talking to Craig over there, and just like last time absolutely great knowledge and very helpful. Last time I had any work done the delivered exactly what was needed, quickly. It has been on Fluffy for 2 years now,done about 8k and has been faultless, with no smoke or play. This turbo is the only turbo I have had on my car that has behaved well.
gttjames
26-07-2013, 10:21
benji - basically i got the turbo back (it had not been stripped down or anything) and sent to someone off this forum for a 2nd opinion who agreed to look at it, he stripped it down and said basically it was oil contamination, he found swarf in it - i was not running a inline filter so suspect despite regular oil changes it ruined the turbo. Trusted member on hear so i accepted that.
Could of been solved alot earlier if cr turbo's would of stripped it and found oil contamination then maybe we wouldnt of had such a long thread - i just wasnt accepting them saying adjusting the actuator caused it to fail, and how they sent me a '20psi turbo' a few years ago, then when i contacted them said they wouldnt of said that.
But glad there is some good comments etc just maybe could of dealt with my situation a bit better
Benjibrady
27-07-2013, 09:30
benji - basically i got the turbo back (it had not been stripped down or anything) and sent to someone off this forum for a 2nd opinion who agreed to look at it, he stripped it down and said basically it was oil contamination, he found swarf in it - i was not running a inline filter so suspect despite regular oil changes it ruined the turbo. Trusted member on hear so i accepted that.
Could of been solved alot earlier if cr turbo's would of stripped it and found oil contamination then maybe we wouldnt of had such a long thread - i just wasnt accepting them saying adjusting the actuator caused it to fail, and how they sent me a '20psi turbo' a few years ago, then when i contacted them said they wouldnt of said that.
But glad there is some good comments etc just maybe could of dealt with my situation a bit better
Ah that's disappointing to hear mate, I guess not the news you wanted to hear? Have you since had it rebuilt? You're right not brilliant of the company to not have a least stripped it down to fully investigate it.
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