spark and fuel tables

[SCHWARTZ]

I have made a fuel and spark map for my b18ft with a view to running 2 bar boost. The car dosnt run at the mo so I'm only letting the engine idle, but do these maps look good enough as a starting point?
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0068.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0069.jpg

[Tutuur]

Does the b18ft run that high of a idle advance?
You could keep the off boost ignition a lot higher as that isnt affected by the boost map.

Other then that the ign. Table looks good on the conservative side.

Also i think it would be better to scale in alot more off boost bins as that is where you'll drive daily. Above 200 kpa you'll rise rapidly trough them to 300kpa anyway so not much use to have that much bins.

Try to find a 300kpa table on the net as example and copy the bin layout (Y)

[SCHWARTZ]

Cheers matey had a little play how about this one.
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0070.jpg

[SCHWARTZ]

Just realised where it says 289 now says 190.

[Scoff]

You want a lot more vac advance than that and less around the idle (40kpa, 1000rpm). Maybe 10-12 degrees, not 22. Timing at WOT is going to depend a lot on your setup but it looks acceptable. Maybe knock a couple degrees off that for initial testing. B18ft doesn't like a lot of timing at WOT.

I wouldn't get too hung up on 2 bar either, they really don't breath these engines even with the NA cam. I bet you won't see much more after 1.6 bar :crap:

[SCHWARTZ]

im getting confused now:crap:
so around idle it wants to be around 10 then can increase as revs and kpa increase but when i reach around 100kpa and 3000 rpm i want to drop that advance down?:scratch:
has anyone got a decent table i can have a look at i have a few here but none seem right:sad2:

[Tutuur]

Well, to understand what's going on with the map the first thing to do is find out what's going on inside the engine.

[TrixNFlix]

You want a lot more vac advance than that and less around the idle (40kpa, 1000rpm). Maybe 10-12 degrees, not 22. Timing at WOT is going to depend a lot on your setup but it looks acceptable. Maybe knock a couple degrees off that for initial testing. B18ft doesn't like a lot of timing at WOT.

I wouldn't get too hung up on 2 bar either, they really don't breath these engines even with the NA cam. I bet you won't see much more after 1.6 bar :crap:

Chris, is the head and cam the biggest limiting factors on these engines? What is the biggest torque and bhp that you have seen produced on stock internals/gearbox, with standard management and standalone?
Nice work Gary:D:agree:

[SCHWARTZ]

im trying to see what the stock internals will take:D im sure its more than my set up can manage tho:laugh:

[SCHWARTZ]

ok still trying to understand this,:rolleyes: i need around 10 for idle then i can advance as the kpa and rpm increases until the rpm reaches 4k (turbo kicks in) then i have to start retarding and when the kpa reaches 100 start retarding. but in the areas that i prob wont reach in the map like 40kpa 7000rpm i can really advance? and likewise 500rpm 300kpa where i wont reach i can advance?

[SCHWARTZ]

Done some more playing:D
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0072.jpg

[Scoff]

Better, but you have more timing at 75kpa than you do at 0kpa at certain rpm's, which doesn't make sense. You can go to 30 deg or more at low kpa's and higher rpm.

It's not about finding the limits of the internals. Whats the point in running 2 bar if it makes no more power than it does at 1.6. From experience they just don't make much more than 230hp without a fight. Hopefully in a week or so well be able to try Lee Wadmoors B18FT engine with it's new cam from Markey mark. There was some problems with valve bounce at high RPM, hopefully thats rectified now and we can continue the mapping. It was showing good power at low boost so fingers crossed.

[SCHWARTZ]

that was the head and cam that was accidently made for me:laugh:
ok i will advance those areas more still trying to get my head round all this ecu lark:wasntme:

[SCHWARTZ]

Right I have been playing with the map on the 3d table and from about 2000rpm now it has a lot of advance and slowly tapers off as the Loa increases. I'll post a pix later to see what ya think.
Chris I have a rsi cam and it spiked to 2bar accidently when the wastegate stuck and it seemed quicker until a boost hose popped off:laugh:
I don't want to reach the limit of standard internals but I would like what power I can get which is why I will be getting it properly mapped when I have sorted the rest of it out.

[SCHWARTZ]

Had another play this evening taking into account what everyone has said. How does this one look then? http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0073.jpg

[Tutuur]

looking better, however at max torgue the timing would be least. so after 4000rpm timing could go up a bit.

[Logg]

Just something I've noticed Gary. With the ignition tables I've got with the C1J the values go up with rev's not down. I would think it is the same with the volvo lump.

example of a very early base map on mine

[Logg]

looking better, however at max torgue the timing would be least. so after 4000rpm timing could go up a bit.

Damn beaten to it. :ashamed:

[SCHWARTZ]

Just something I've noticed Gary. With the ignition tables I've got with the C1J the values go up with rev's not down. I would think it is the same with the volvo lump.

example of a very early base map on mine

so at 8000rpm 300kpa max boost theres 26degrees advance:eek: seems a lot:scratch:
scoff reckons 10 deg at WOT so was going with that. Also its slightly higher comp and a flat head so dont know if that makes a difference but think it might not be able to have as much as the c1j.
I want something looking good but quite safe at the min as its not driveable so cant test but will up it when i can:D

[Logg]

so at 8000rpm 300kpa max boost theres 26degrees advance:eek: seems a lot:scratch:
scoff reckons 10 deg at WOT so was going with that. Also its slightly higher comp and a flat head so dont know if that makes a difference but think it might not be able to have as much as the c1j.
I want something looking good but quite safe at the min as its not driveable so cant test but will up it when i can:D

See the words early base map the car wasn't ever run over 200kpa on that map plus different engines like different things (C1J). The main thing was the map shows the trend that after peak torque more advance is slowly added. :)

[SCHWARTZ]

See the words early base map:laugh:
i have advanced after 4000rpm a bit more now but will prob leave it there until i can drive it and see how it behaves

[Markey Mark (BD)]

that was the head and cam that was accidently made for me:laugh:


Thats the one mate :agree:

I must admit i did talk to Waddie about opening the exhaust port alittle as this looks the restrictive part of the head but he decided to leave as to see what difference the cam made
Heads now fitted with double valve springs fitted so should be sorted now, engineers did admit old springs were way too soft for cam profile

[SCHWARTZ]

Can't wait to see the power it will make. Hoping I will get a fair bit, will be good to see how much a pretty much standard engine can make.:D

[SCHWARTZ]

Maybe something to look into at some point, but saying that if I did want more I'd prob go f7p and o2m:D

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Maybe something to look into at some point, but saying that if I did want more I'd prob go f7p and o2m:D

I'll see how much power can be made from modding the B18FT further, if can get it to flow better then it'll be cheaper/easier getting power from current then changing.

Lifes not all about 16v's :D;)

[SCHWARTZ]

:agree:nope would have thought a lot of it is down to the inlet One side n exhaust otherside tho.:D

[TrixNFlix]

I'll see how much power can be made from modding the B18FT further, if can get it to flow better then it'll be cheaper/easier getting power from current then changing.

Lifes not all about 16v's :D;)

I'm at a crossroads, with the possibility of entering my r5 into rallycross, I have all the b18ft gear, just will it be powerful enough:rolleyes: This is all being done on a tiny budget, so whatever I pick has to last me a while.

[Markey Mark (BD)]

I'm at a crossroads, with the possibility of entering my r5 into rallycross, I have all the b18ft gear, just will it be powerful enough:rolleyes: This is all being done on a tiny budget, so whatever I pick has to last me a while.

The engine will be powerful enough, make car light enough and it'll go well
Got to think of reliability too, these are built like battle ships very strong bottom ends :agree:

Ask Romil and Logg what my B18FT van went like at 160bhp when we had alittle race on way to Nat Day this year ;)

[SCHWARTZ]

The b18ft can be done on a tighter budget. All I have is a rsi cam and a big blower. The ms cost 250quid if I were to go straight to where I am now I reckon I could have done it for 1k. Hopefully soon il be able to do some power runs to see how much easy power can be had:D

[SCHWARTZ]

I was pleasantly surprised by the thickness of the con rods:D

[SCHWARTZ]

Right since sorting the timing the engine has now developed a miss fire over 3k. I have cleaned the plugs and its not that, I'm sure its down to the timing as when I sorted it it got knocked back by about 10degrees over the whole rev range. How much can I advance the timing in low load areas?

[Scoff]

so at 8000rpm 300kpa max boost theres 26degrees advance:eek: seems a lot:scratch:
scoff reckons 10 deg at WOT so was going with that. Also its slightly higher comp and a flat head so dont know if that makes a difference but think it might not be able to have as much as the c1j.
I want something looking good but quite safe at the min as its not driveable so cant test but will up it when i can:D

I don't think I said 10 deg at WOT ? I wouldn't have offered any exact suggestions for WOT. You also can't compare B18FT with C1J, the timing map requirements are nothing like. C1J needs more advance just about everywhere.

As the guys say you have the top half of the table arse about face. With the B18FT you dont want a lot of timing at WOT where peak torque happens. You need to be feeding it back in as revs rise though. I'd be starting very safe where peak torque happens and initially no more than 16deg@ 6000rpm / 230kpa. Work from there. You need to look at and absorb some other turbo timing maps to get a feel for what the engine wants. I wouldn't put too much stock in the b18ft timing map that floats around on the web, it doesn't look right to me :)

You can put more timing in at vacuum above 3000rpm say. Beware that moving the timing has an impact on how it fuels in those areas too, so pulling 10 deg probably made it go richer in those areas. Maybe it's bogging down now.

[Scoff]

Just as a random aside, I finally got to tuning Lee Wadmores B18FT GTT last week with it's headwork and custom cam from Markey mark. I was very impressed, it went as well as I expected it to with a real cam. 203hp at 13.5psi and 224hp at about 17psi. He has a 0.86 T28. His actuator was knackered so we could not test with more boost but it goes to show how much better these engines will go with a performance cam. :)

[TrixNFlix]

Just as a random aside, I finally got to tuning Lee Wadmores B18FT GTT last week with it's headwork and custom cam from Markey mark. I was very impressed, it went as well as I expected it to with a real cam. 203hp at 13.5psi and 224hp at about 17psi. He has a 0.86 T28. Annoyingly his actuator was knackered so we could not test with more boost but it goes to show how much better these engines will go with a performance cam.

:):agree:

[SCHWARTZ]

Cheers Chris I will have a look and re tune my map tomorrow and il post it up to see what ya think. I too have a t28 with a .86 rear but only have a rsi cam. Will be good to see what the headwork has done.

[Mart]

Are you road-mapping, on the dyno, using a steth', etc? Surely you're not just entering the numbers willy nilly? :)

As a good r.o.t, try not to have too large a value variation between cells. 3 is about the most you want to go on the scaling you have.

Can you source an o.e ign' map? At least you'll have a good starting point, then tweak accordingly from there.

[Robbo]

The b18ft can be done on a tighter budget. All I have is a rsi cam and a big blower. The ms cost 250quid if I were to go straight to where I am now I reckon I could have done it for 1k. Hopefully soon il be able to do some power runs to see how much easy power can be had:D

off topic, but is the clio rsi cam any good before i chuck into my b18ft??

[SCHWARTZ]

Mart I haves had a look for std ign map but no joy il keep looking tho. Atm its just idling an revving as it can't drive so I'm just getting it to rev nice. I will be tuning it on the rd until I can get it to someone like Chris. I have a knock monitor but want to test it. Is there any way I can test it with out making the engine nock?

[SCHWARTZ]

the rsi cam seems good i can only compare to the ep cam and to me it feels better bit more power but who knows could be making less:laugh:

[SCHWARTZ]

I don't think I said 10 deg at WOT ? I wouldn't have offered any exact suggestions for WOT. You also can't compare B18FT with C1J, the timing map requirements are nothing like. C1J needs more advance just about everywhere.

As the guys say you have the top half of the table arse about face. With the B18FT you dont want a lot of timing at WOT where peak torque happens. You need to be feeding it back in as revs rise though. I'd be starting very safe where peak torque happens and initially no more than 16deg@ 6000rpm / 230kpa. Work from there. You need to look at and absorb some other turbo timing maps to get a feel for what the engine wants. I wouldn't put too much stock in the b18ft timing map that floats around on the web, it doesn't look right to me :)

You can put more timing in at vacuum above 3000rpm say. Beware that moving the timing has an impact on how it fuels in those areas too, so pulling 10 deg probably made it go richer in those areas. Maybe it's bogging down now.

Chris i apologise i have gone back and it looks like i miss read your advice.:rolleyes:
I will be having a play with tunerstudio tomorrow so hopefully i can get a good base set.
Is it just a cam upgrade as i thought there was a lot of head work to incorporate the cam?

[Scoff]

Yes, head work is to accept the cam. It's machined, double sprung etc.

[TrixNFlix]

the rsi cam seems good i can only compare to the ep cam and to me it feels better bit more power but who knows could be making less:laugh:

What's it like compared to the 'e' cam Gary?

[SCHWARTZ]

Never had the 'e' cam to campare matey but don't think the 'e' is much more wild than the 'ep'.

[SCHWARTZ]

How about this then?
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0083.jpg

[Tutuur]

Looks lots better mate!

[Scoff]

Too much at 4000rpm for my liking though. You need to be very safe at peak torque with these engines. 10-12 deg maybe then progress from there.

[SCHWARTZ]

Too much at 4000rpm for my liking though. You need to be very safe at peak torque with these engines. 10-12 deg maybe then progress from there.

So arround 10-12deg at 4000rpm above 100kpa then slowly bring it up as the revs increase then? Would it be more advanced before 4000rpm then slowly retard up til the 4k mark then advance it after?

[Scoff]

Well lets say 10 deg at about 230kpa, it can ramp up as load decreases.

[SCHWARTZ]

Excuse the ignorence but is this what ya ment chris?
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0084.jpg

[Scoff]

Looking best so far :) Better to start safe than sorry.

[SCHWARTZ]

Cheers guys il give this a go for now and go from there can't really do much as its off the road at the min tho:rolleyes:

[SCHWARTZ]

right i seem to have a missfire at 3100rpm with next to no load. The afr's are 13 and the spark adv is around 26deg btdc this all seems ok to me is that correct?
I have removed the plugs and cleaned them, I did notice that cyl 2&3 were fouled up alot more than 1&4 so running rich on those cyls. Is it possible i have wired the injectors wrong as i thought if i had it wouldnt run at all?:scratch: I have a spare set of injectors i can try and was thinking of using them anyway as i think they will have a better spray pattern than the ones im using at the mo.
The leads, rotor and dizzy cap were new about 2years ago and all look ok, Anyone got any good ideas where to start?

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

How is your tdc sensor mounted?

[SCHWARTZ]

It's one of scoffs I just cut up a piece of angle bracket and drilled a hole its aluminium 1" angle and about 1.5mm thick. I think I have a pix of it somewhere.

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

It's one of scoffs I just cut up a piece of angle bracket and drilled a hole its aluminium 1" angle and about 1.5mm thick. I think I have a pix of it somewhere.

Reason I ask, is just in case the bracket is vibrating and causing some probs for the sensor signal.

[SCHWARTZ]

Here Are
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0063.jpg

[SCHWARTZ]

It seems quite sturdy I may try doubling it up if it feels wobbly. The plug for the sensor does hit the water pipe. I'll get a pix when I get a bit of light.

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Personally, I'd be inclined to beef that up. Possible steel angle as opposed to alloy.

[Woznaldo]

Agreed, that bracket will definitely be vibrating. Go for the steel equivalent and possibly add a gusset brace or two.

[SCHWARTZ]

Cheers fella looks like il be getting my self some steel angle then:rolleyes:

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Worth a try and shouldn't cost the earth as you have a pattern to work from already.;)

[SCHWARTZ]

Yeah hopefully this will sort it as everything seems to be ok. I will report back when I have tried this. Cheers mat;)

[SCHWARTZ]

Right had a look at the bracket and it seems sturdy enough. I revved the engine up to 3100 whilst holding the bracket and tdc sensor to take away any vibrations and it still missed:scratch: is that a good enough test or is there another way?

[Scoff]

Sorry if you already checked, but are you sure polarity is correct ?
You have no funny launch control or cold-engine rev limiters set ?
Over boost kpa isn't set at 100kpa or something daft ?
You're using twin core screened ?
Air gap between sensor and flywheel is less than 2mm ?
It's 60-2 and not a siemens clio 172 pattern flywheel ?
Software is definitely set for 2 missing teeth ?

Just thinking out loud, I'm sure you've checked all of this already :)

[SCHWARTZ]

All is fine except for the launch control which I was thinking about when I was writing the last post.
Think I'm going to cut the switch off(has diodes wired in) and see if that is the prob as everything else seems fine:scratch:
I have my launch control set as;
Retard ign above- 3500rpm
Retard to- 15deg
Enable launch when throttle over -40%
Hard rev limit- 4800
Variable launch- on
I'm sure its something to do with the switch or these settings do these sound about right? Also there are flat shift options but I have no idea what to set them at and don't really want them coming into play so have just set the values silly high, is that ok?

[SCHWARTZ]

Now changed rpm set points to 2800 and 3800 so both down 1000 rpm on both values to see if it makes any difference.

[Tutuur]

Don't cut the switch, you can simply turb them off in tunerstudio or put in way too high values.

[SCHWARTZ]

I will try setting the values way too high first but they shouldn't come into play at all if the switch hasn't been pressed, should they? So I'm thinking its the diodes connecting the +&- together are poss the wrong way round.:rolleyes:

[SCHWARTZ]

Dropped the tdc sensor down and all is solved:ashamed: It is extremely close to the teeth to the point where for the first couple of revelotions it was scraping on the teeth, even though it has only been dropped a tiny ammount not even 1/2mm.:scratch:

[Tutuur]

apparently that does the job :agree:

[Tony Walker]

sounds like a bad connection or dodgy sensor if theres a poor signal? The gap shouldnt need to nearly touch.

[SCHWARTZ]

It's a brand new sensor and plug from scoff and I soldered all the connections using screened cable. I wonder if its just that the ms is poor at reading the signal:scratch:

[SCHWARTZ]

Right so the car revvs up well and didn't miss at high rpm, but I have to press the throttle very gently from idle for it not to miss. After a second or so it will smooth out and rev very quickly but there's an initial hesitation.:scratch: I have tried the accelerator enrichment settings in both map and tps based settings and no change:mad:

[Scoff]

Thats map and transient related. Welcome to the challenging world of accurate mapping ;)

Don't worry about transient for now. Get your fuel table done - and by done I mean including load cells above idle and at every other rpm too, at least up to 100kpa. Then you can think about transient settings. There's no point in trying to dial in transient when the cells of the map you're jumping in to are not calibrated.

[SCHWARTZ]

Cheers Chris. Looks like I have done all I can do for now then, until the cars ready to go back on the road:D

[SCHWARTZ]

right i have finally got the car back on the road and i want to start mapping it. The car seems to drive well but it is rich, this is no problem to sort but its the spark map i'm worried about. I want to get the fueling map good so i can drive the car around for a bit then get it mapped properly on the rollers when i have the cash. Does this spark map look safe to sort the fueling on?

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/IMAG0084.jpg[/URL]
chris i know last time you said it looked safe but just want to confirm as i cant think if it has changed at all:rolleyes:

[SCHWARTZ]

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/untitled_zps9526bb8b.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/schwartz87/media/untitled_zps9526bb8b.jpg.html)

right done a bit of mapping looking at other spark tables for the b18ft on the net and come up with this. Im getting some kind of miss fire when pulling hard in second gear it hits 5500rpm then i get loud pops and bangs so i let off, if i rev up slowly its ok. I have a knocktek and im wondering if i need to ignore knocks over 5000rpm or something like that due to engine noise?:confused:

[SCHWARTZ]

would a little more advance help? i was woried about knock so had it a little more retarded that other maps.:scratch:
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy12/schwartz87/untitled_zpsec441286.jpg (http://s773.photobucket.com/user/schwartz87/media/untitled_zpsec441286.jpg.html)

[SCHWARTZ]

also fueling was in the 12s when this happened