smoking on idle issue's

[gttjames]

Right guys trying to get to the bottom of this new problem, am leaning towards turbo oil seals. What you need to know

recent engine build, i did the bottom, but bought a cylinder head off a member on here, i checked the valves where sealed before fitting it by havinghead uoside down on a bench and using petrol to see if any passed the valves. All new gaskets, 12.9 headbolts. Done 500 miles on it no problems at all. Took carb off last week and did some mods, 1.2mm 2nd stage, 1mm AC jet. Re fitted, had a few problems with it - blocked idle jet, cleaned 3/4 times and all good. But noticed plumes of smoke on idle, afr's where good, no coolant loss so assumed maybe just as id had the carb off. Was fine running so put boost upto 20psi and afr's are all good. 13.5 idle and driving, rich wot at 10.9

After having some fun in it, 20 miles, no problems when running, no smoke when driving or on cold start up, or on boost. But when i go for a drive, stop at traffic lights, or pull up at home, leave it idling and its fine for 20seconds, then 25/30 seconds and it just goes, loads of smoke! Then if you rev it, it clears, leave it idling and sure thing 25 seconds later, boom smoke!

Turbo i bought new from cr turbo's about 3 years ago, allthough its done under 2k - as 5 is a weekend/nice weather car, and its allways been ran at 12/13psi up until the last 20 miles its been running 20psi (they told me its good enough max at 25psi so i thought 20 would be good)

So no coolant loss, no oil loss as of yet as only done 20miles with the problem. Iv had it on the mot testing machine and no serious amount of hydrocarbons, like 250 which is nothing. Heres a video that shows the exact problem!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrThE0jZHrg

[GTphil]

Looks like may be the turbo, is it oil smoke?

Try taking your oil cap off when it's idling and see if it clears.

Is your turbo pre-filtered?

[gttjames]

it just seems strange as iv never had an issue in the total 15k iv done in my 5, new turbo went on and never had an issue, new engine build and 500miles all good. Then all of a sudden this smoke on idle from no where.

Also when iv been running it and its upto temp, if i open the coolant bottle it doesnt pop or hiss with pressure, but no coolant loss still

[GTphil]

After a re-build sometimes the oil isn't all that clean as swarfe can build up as new parts bed in etc.

And now your pushing the blower a bit more that could be the cause.

It's hard to tell from the vid the type of smoke.

Try cleaning out the breather system, then let it idle and see if it stops, then try taking the oil cap off, if that doesn't stop it then Take the air filter off and check the turbo for play by grabbing hold of the wheel and try moving it side to side and in and out, a few mm side to side is normal, should be zero in and out play.

[Tony Walker]

yeah take oil cap off and see if it stops, if it does then its a breather restriction.

[LYNCHSTAR]

same thing happend to mine. making a D.I.Y oil catch tank everything went back to normal been right eversince

[R5MJH]

we had something similiar turned out in our case to be rings id check piston comps and see also we fitted a seperate filter to the breather that goes to telphone then it stopped even wiv dodgy rings alao check for play in turbo

[gttjames]

right done a little more...

started it up again tonight, when cold good oil pressure, no smoke, but as soon as the temp gauge started rising it started chuffing away, i forgot to check if taking oil cap off cured it, will do this tomorrw. But how heavy should it be breathing? As with oil cap off and hand over it theres quiete abit of pressure there.

I took air filter pipe off, quiete abit of side to side movement there, none in and out, so took turbo elbow off and same movement on that side, no fins are broken but there is side to side movement, more than i would like but im also living in hope that its ok. But then i thought if it was well knackered then it wouldnt boost hard like it does and it would smoke all the time. It was hard to look in at the blades from the exhaust end so i used my phone...

(you tube is going to be full of my car vids soon lol)

[gttjames]

http://youtu.be/RXGYSuTCbO0

also what would cause the turbo to wear like this, 2k miles at 13psi, surely not? or do i need to be looking at a possible other factor?

[s3irios]

Had same issue the turbo specialist gave me 2 possible reasons:
1) I had a major boost leak not easily detectable so the turbo was working like on 2 bar but i was only receiving the 14 psi

or/and

2) poor oil pressure

resulting in turbo sleeves destroyed.

What i DID find is that i actually had a major boost leak on the lobster. I bought one of these aluminum ones from ebay. it wasn't sealing right with the o-ring. Went and bought a more "fat" o ring , same dimension though, and a classic o-ring. I placed the fatter bottom and the smaller on tob so it acts like a sealant of sorts going into the lobster. Also replaced one of the screws that hold the carb lobster in place sealed. I actually drilled down the hole and put a larger screw with a tight safety nut on the bottom so it's nice and sealed now.

Without touching my actuator where i previously had 14,5 psi exactly, now i had 21+ psi!!! :scared::o:scared:

The hing is that this leak wasn't detectable via a noise or something, it does the exact noise as it did before but still now i benefit from all the pressure.

After that i stil had oil smoke coming but i removed the second pipe coming off the oil catch tank to vent and it's a-ok now if you can manage with the oil smell in the car that is...:sad2:

[gttjames]

Well my oil pressure is good and within tolerance.

And when i got turbo i run it where it was set on actuator, then a few turns to take it upto a bar, then i used a bleed valve recently to go futher, and started with that wound right in, and didnt take much atall to get to 20psi.

Iv checked all my boost hoses etc and all ok, i was checking the carb at the weekend for an airleak, and i can spray carb cleaner all around it with no increase in revs.

Maybe its just from recent build and some crap has got in there, just obviously am worried about shelling out for another turbo and destroying that aswell

Also worth pointing out i tested the actuator with a pressure tester, pumped it up untill it opened and this was 2psi different to my boost gauge whoch i was told is acceptabel pressure drop from actuator to time it reaches carb - so dont think turbo has been over boosting?

[s3irios]

You won't see revs going higher on idle or light throttle if it has air leak from the lobster. And i tested it this way too and i didn't either. It must have load aka actually driving it to get on the pressure where it starts to leak.
Again not saying it's defo an air leak from the lobster, but i had same issue and took me a lot of time to actually find it. If it was leaking in carb base you would see revs climbing after you spray it.
Just imagine tht with the same actuator before i wound it as much as i could and the boost couldn't climb above 1 bar. On same actuator again i have it on the misddle of the screw far from it being full screwed in and it's on 20 psi.:wasntme:

[gttjames]

Ok well before i fit new i will re do all the boost hosses and pressure test it etc

Iv got some oil in my breather pipes aswell, theres no oil at front of turbo, just exhaust side.

Would the oil in the breather pipes be caused by the turbo shaft moving to much causing it to pressurerise the sump slightly?

[Brigsy]

This sounds like the classic swarf from a new engine build has gone through the turbo damaging the bearings/seals...fit an inline filter into the oil feed to catch the swarf.

[Tony Walker]

have you took the cap off while idling yet to see if smoke stops? really is the first easiest test :agree:

[Adam L]

The C1J is pretty piss poor at filtrating swarf out of oil. I used to tell people to buy inline filters for the oil feed pipe for years on end and only had one person bring a turbo back after 1k miles on an engine rebuild with the filter attached. The filter had a wall of swarf in it completely blocking the oil supply to the turbo...

[Chunk]

So either way you're screwed really, either the swarf blocks the filter and the turbo is starved of oil, or the oil reaches the turbo and wrecks the seals with the swarf..

[Tony Walker]

please take the cap off and report back. the pressure in the sump if its not breathing correctly forces the oil past the seals in the turbo.

[gttjames]

So either way you're screwed really, either the swarf blocks the filter and the turbo is starved of oil, or the oil reaches the turbo and wrecks the seals with the swarf..

haha yer thats what it sounds like:agree:

[gttjames]

please take the cap off and report back. the pressure in the sump if its not breathing correctly forces the oil past the seals in the turbo.

Yes hi Tony have done this and no difference atall, still smokes the same, and if you take cap off and put your hand over its not loads of pressure, just enough to feel - im guessiing a littlbe bit is ok?

More of an update...

I have removed the turbo and yer deffinatley to much play in it, have seen worse though and also no damage to be seen, just to much side to side slop. There is oil at the back part of the turbo, and oil in the dowpipe, not loads but a thin layer. There is no oil in the exhuast manifold - so this suggests rings etc are fine?

I also tested the oil feed from block, just like when you re fit it and prime it up, took king lead off, cranked it over and after about 5 seconds oil was flowing out nicely - it has been sat for a couple of days so the initial 5 seconds of no oil is normal i guess?

Im just trying to look at as much as possible i can to rule out any other faults. But going by all of this is it safe to say its a turbo fault and nothing else?

And either caused by, 1 - bad turbo. 2 - swarf from new engine build ?

cheers!

[gttjames]

The C1J is pretty piss poor at filtrating swarf out of oil. I used to tell people to buy inline filters for the oil feed pipe for years on end and only had one person bring a turbo back after 1k miles on an engine rebuild with the filter attached. The filter had a wall of swarf in it completely blocking the oil supply to the turbo...


with your experience adam would you say it was best to run a in line filter then, and just clean it out regular?

[GTphil]

It will be the new build that's caused it definatly, happens all to often.

I would definatly look at getting a decent inline filter for the oil feed, one of the proper ones also, like mocal or Baileys. The hoses solutions one I have will only stop large bits of metal, you want a very fine guaze inside the filter to do a proper job;)

[gttjames]

Well finally got some time today so put on my standard t2 i have, it msoked initially while i guess the oil cleared from the system/exhaust. Clear as now, no smoke at all - at least im fairly certain now that its hopefully just the turbo.

Haha the t2 feels like it has zero lag! So fun, but runs out of puff straight away (thats at 0.9bar aswell lol)

Now question is, with my setup which turbo. I have spoke to a member on here for advice but also wonder what other people think..

recent rebuild, standard bottom end/pistons/rings
73mm head with abit of squish are cut off (so assuma around standard compression), piper valve springs, slight bit off head/inlet manifold work
lightened flywheel
piper 270 cam
fmic
bms downpipe
standard carb but have afr gauge and can do fueling

aiming for a 200bhp printout (i know dyno figures ae just that)
13 second 1/4 miles (12.9 would be sick!)
fast road/weekend use but would like to keep lag down

replace with what i had t25/.47 exhuast
or go full t25, (as only about £50 more) much more lag?
or go t28 with .49? (dont know how much extra this route will cost?)