View Full Version : Engine Dynamics F4R Turbo Conversion
Was browsing the ED website last night and liked the look of their turbo conversion, can be purchased as a full kit or items separately. Does anyone know who they are actually are, for some reason I keep thinking Jon from Torsion Tuning or BB Tuning have something to do with it. Just debating whether to buy the parts over the next say 4 months, sourcing them at reasonable prices or bite the bullet and get the kit.
I imagine the turbo and ECU are the expensive components so at 2.7k for the kit what do people think. I really like the RB and think this is the next realistic step for it :ashamed:
The other option is to pick up a cheap 172 and put the money into the kit straight away.
Was browsing the ED website last night and liked the look of their turbo conversion, can be purchased as a full kit or items separately. Does anyone know who they are actually are, for some reason I keep thinking Jon from Torsion Tuning or BB Tuning have something to do with it. Just debating whether to buy the parts over the next say 4 months, sourcing them at reasonable prices or bite the bullet and get the kit.
I imagine the turbo and ECU are the expensive components so at 2.7k for the kit what do people think. I really like the RB and think this is the next realistic step for it :ashamed:
The other option is to pick up a cheap 172 and put the money into the kit straight away.
That's the old bb tuning lads think scoff has had a lot to do with there latest turbo conversions.
It looks tidy, and if Scoffs had input in it then I think that's only a good thing. I watched the dyno clip and 100% sure its on his RR facility
Also ED did all the machining and stuff for turboted's F7P
Yes, it's andy & andy from BB, keeping things simpler I think these days with less overheads :)
The turbo kit is tidy, everything fits neatly and works as it should. Not a lot of lag either from the large T25. I did the engine management for it and had the fun of running around in their 172 demonstrator for a couple of days, it's just the right amount of power for road and track I'd say. Some drama in 1st gear, bit of squirm in 2nd then pulls well even through 5th. There's a high boost kit in the pipeline too somewhere.
Ooooh, thanks for the info Scoff :cool: I read on their website they do a high boost kit, I can't remember how much more in cost. I think its a 280bhp kit, hmm, I might have to make a phone call to chat about it :)
Markey Mark (BD)
21-09-2012, 16:08
You got a link to this kit Ricardo?
http://www.engine-dynamics.com/Turbo/cid103/Turbo.asp
Different things for the 172 turbo conversion
You got a link to this kit Ricardo?
http://www.engine-dynamics.com/Turbo/pid685/cid103/ClioSport172/182TurboConversionKit230BHP.asp
jesus in the seat of a 5
21-09-2012, 20:24
ive been in contact with these guys... what sort of power is it possible to get out of these set up`s.....realllisticly..:scratch:
ive been in contact with these guys... what sort of power is it possible to get out of these set up`s.....realllisticly..:scratch:
I imagine it depends on the turbo, if you're going high power like high 200s hitting 300+ then you're talking forged rods and pistons. There's a chap on Cliosport with mid 300s, he's tried 3 different spec turbos all with different bhp figures.
There's another turbo converted Clio knocking about that has a 172 bottom end, 197 head, Focus ST turbo and FMIC, was around the 256bhp mark but believe its been mapped for more boost since the conversion.
I'd be happy with the qouted 230bhp from the low boost kit.
jesus in the seat of a 5
21-09-2012, 22:06
I imagine it depends on the turbo, if you're going high power like high 200s hitting 300+ then you're talking forged rods and pistons. There's a chap on Cliosport with mid 300s, he's tried 3 different spec turbos all with different bhp figures.
There's another turbo converted Clio knocking about that has a 172 bottom end, 197 head, Focus ST turbo and FMIC, was around the 256bhp mark but believe its been mapped for more boost since the conversion.
I'd be happy with the qouted 230bhp from the low boost kit.
cheers for the info ric... sounds good for the dosh like to be honest...hmmmmmm
Also gearbox issues come into play the more power too, and clutch. Again, on the 230 the 2 items are deemed ok standard wise. I think the F4R responds to turbo power quite well :)
All info mentioned is what i've read on turbo project threads over the last few months. I actually went to view the 172/197 head turbo Clio as it was for sale just before buying the RB 182, i'm not really sure why i didnt buy it. My head was saying yes! Power! Boost! My heart said it was a 1 off conversion and didnt want to get into something out of my depth.
IMO Rich I am sure you can source the parts cheaper 2nd hand in some cases to keep the price down. 550 quid for an intercooler and air intake seems a bit excessive for me. I am sure you could get an ebay jobbie for say 200 quid and with a bit of work make it fit.
I think the same with the manifold and downpipe. If you can wait long enough I am sure with the right forums/contacts you will be able to source these cheaper and 2nd hand:)
The only problem with swapping and changing bits away from the kit is that you need it custom mapped, so the cost goes back up. If you aim to keep it similar then it'll probably be right enough but I don't know if ED will want to sell you the engine management flash and module without the kit. Best to check with them first :)
Rich its an awesome conversion. If I wasnt getting a Megane, I would have chose this route :)
Rich, believe me Ive thought about going down that route of purchasing separate parts over the months to build up a complete kit. There are parts on kits from both Engine Dynamics and K Tec that could be bought cheaper (maybe the FMIC setup and maybe the turbocharger)
The home brew in me says to do that, make a project of it and fit all the pieces together to end up with a turbo Clio..... BUT, I'm not sure I'd be any better off ordering parts such as different angled pipes for the FMIC routes, trial and error, buy twice... When it's already been worked out. Everything has been worked out, it's IIRC cheaper than K Tec. Whats working for me is that Scoff has worked on it, by the sounds of it I wouldn't need to be heading up there on numerous occasions to have it mapped, that's a money saver in itself with the cost of mapping and petrol to and from Scoffs place.
Just over 3k to buy and have the ED turbo kit fitted.... Hmm, maybe time to do a classified for sale ad
The new Bill J
26-09-2012, 19:59
What about a Megane 225 engine conversion?
For less i have a 250bhp F7r atm
What about a Megane 225 engine conversion?
To be honest I've not really thought about that option
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
26-09-2012, 20:14
To be honest I've not really thought about that option
:laugh: with all the ideas I was throwing around last night and the one before that, I'm surprised you get any sleep Ric, "I'll think about that" are famous last words.... "yeah, but we could use this for that" is just as bad.....
I started making 'that list', then I thought of other things and got lost!!!:wasntme:
jesus in the seat of a 5
26-09-2012, 20:30
What about a Megane 225 engine conversion?
what about a megane....:laugh::wasntme:
Tony Walker
26-09-2012, 20:40
what about a megane....:laugh::wasntme:
:laugh::wasntme:
What about a Megane 225 engine conversion?
:agree: That would be my way of doing it. Swap everything over, remap, ~250-270hp. JD.
Even better if you can mate the R26 lsd/'box to it.
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
26-09-2012, 22:06
Probably buying a 225 and fitting the quaife (£595) is cheaper than an r26r box?
Give or take - They seem to be going for a similar price: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-RENAULT-MEGANE-2-0T-R26-F1-230-LIMITED-SLIP-GEARBOX-2004-2011-BOX-358-/160879840808?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Model%3AMegane&hash=item25752f8e28
:laugh: with all the ideas I was throwing around last night and the one before that, I'm surprised you get any sleep Ric, "I'll think about that" are famous last words.... "yeah, but we could use this for that" is just as bad.....
I started making 'that list', then I thought of other things and got lost!!!:wasntme:
:laugh:
I think you know what I'm like now, in all seriousness what do you think about the 225? How much would the lump be to start with!? To me though it's the parts that will add up, do you buy it as a job lot, find a written off 225?
Matt I hope you don't mind the phone calls.... You know I trust the Code Red policies :)
Top one, nice one, get sorted: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renaultsport-Renault-Megane-Sport-225-Engine-And-Box-Wiring-Transplant-Kit-Car-/180980683206?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a234a11c6
From what ive heard the megane box wont fit without work? & the jb/jc box wont bolt up to the megane block? Easily go over 3k that conversion imo as you will need management to suit.
From what ive heard the megane box wont fit without work? & the jb/jc box wont bolt up to the megane block? Easily go over 3k that conversion imo as you will need management to suit.
Did Matt C do this conversion in the 5? I'll have a look in the projects threads as im sure he's done this. I'm thinking out of the 2 conversions the ED option seems like less hassle.
Although thinking out loud wouldn't the 225 engine and box fit in the Clio bay, I dare say new mounts to be made?
Was also looking into the AEM fuel and ignition controller, this is what ED use as a piggyback ecu. Was wondering if this could be used alongside the original ecu on the 182 with the 225 lump in place, not discounting having to wire it into the loom. This is where it gets beyond me :ashamed:
Did Matt C do this conversion in the 5? I'll have a look in the projects threads as im sure he's done this. I'm thinking out of the 2 conversions the ED option seems like less hassle.
Although thinking out loud wouldn't the 225 engine and box fit in the Clio bay, I dare say new mounts to be made?
There are a few 225 conversions gone into the ph1 172 on Cliosport have a look at those.
Although my offer still stands on the PX of mine for the RB rather than you a spoil a minter!!.......
From what ive heard the megane box wont fit without work? & the jb/jc box wont bolt up to the megane block? Easily go over 3k that conversion imo as you will need management to suit.
Won't fit into a Clio?
Use the 225/230 ecu, and patch the wiring loom.
Needs a bit of chopping to fit the box into a clio apparently and no doubt you will need custom shafts. You could redrill the megane block to fit the jc though. Getting the stock ecu to work will most likely be a headache (immobiliser/wiring/fbw throttle etc), also think you need to modify the stock megane exhaust manifold.
Still a decent conversion though, just wont be cheap. Ive been sniffing about for a 2.0t conversion for ages and there doesn't seem to be a cheap option. When the prices come down on 197 clio's id like to do a 225 conversion in one of them. There's one done local to me goes very well.
This is why it comes back to the ED kit, BUT, I think it could be done cheaper. The part to me that seems to be the most expensive in the kit is the turbo, IIRC asking over a grand for a new unit. Based on a T25-T3 could one be sourced? Could say a T28 rollerbearing from an S15 work. Sometimes its who you know which opens doors to sourcing decent priced parts
Stop pussy footing around and go and do the ED conversion...
You'll end up selling it anyway :cooter:
Stop pussy footing around and go and do the ED conversion...
You'll end up selling it anyway :cooter:
Give me that 5 shell and I'll stick it in that :cooter:
Give me that 5 shell and I'll stick it in that :cooter:
You'd probably get more use out of it than me after I get my Megane :D
Needs a bit of chopping to fit the box into a clio apparently and no doubt you will need custom shafts. You could redrill the megane block to fit the jc though. Getting the stock ecu to work will most likely be a headache (immobiliser/wiring/fbw throttle etc), also think you need to modify the stock megane exhaust manifold
Pah, the PMT Northern division is giving in too easy there ;) :D
Immobiliser could be an issue (although I'm fairly sure there's a doohickey that would sort that). FBW throttle setup is already present on 182's, so that's not an issue. Re-wiring/patching looms is fun :D
Ricky, you could always C1J the Clio for an easier life :laugh:
The new Bill J
27-09-2012, 14:54
When the prices come down on 197 clio's id like to do a 225 conversion in one of them. There's one done local to me goes very well.
That's what I've been thinking lately - Evo out, Liquid Yellow R27 in, with a 225 lump :scared:
Its a good conversion, power to match the handling. Renault should have turbo'd them from factory.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned mart you know me :D rewiring looms is never fun :laugh:
Up to 300 bhp I don't see a problem with a JC5 box, obviously above this the ND0 is a better option. I wouldn't dismiss the the VAG conversion Scoffs developed, everyone who's had it done seems very happy with it.
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
27-09-2012, 16:27
Give me that 5 shell and I'll stick it in that :cooter:
Ric, you can have my R5 shell....
GARY GRWTURBO
27-09-2012, 19:25
This is why it comes back to the ED kit, BUT, I think it could be done cheaper. The part to me that seems to be the most expensive in the kit is the turbo, IIRC asking over a grand for a new unit. Based on a T25-T3 could one be sourced? Could say a T28 rollerbearing from an S15 work. Sometimes its who you know which opens doors to sourcing decent priced parts
the last 172 low boost conversion we did using second hand parts
of ebay only cost £650 all in
and i do mean all in
229 bhp on a nissan t25/28 9psi
ive just got a new 04 plate rb 182 which im using as a run about
im going to turbo this in the next few weeks aswell
low boost on a budget
aiming to spend as little as poss
the last 172 low boost conversion we did using second hand parts
of ebay only cost £650 all in
and i do mean all in
229 bhp on a nissan t25/28 9psi
ive just got a new 04 plate rb 182 which im using as a run about
im going to turbo this in the next few weeks aswell
low boost on a budget
aiming to spend as little as poss
What make parts did you use, intercooler, manifold, downpipe?
Ricky, you could always C1J the Clio for an easier life :laugh:
180 square, actually, i did think of this today in a clio :D
Relatively easier (and defo cheaper) to tune a C1J to 230hp...
Relatively easier (and defo cheaper) to tune a C1J to 230hp...
I bet its not far off if everything C1J wise was bought new, fully rebuilt engine, new turbo, coolant pipes, rad, FMIC, turbo elbow, downpipe. Would also be better to run the ignition in EFI.............. Why am i thinking this, i couldnt do it to the RB, maybe a phs 1 but not the 182
allanr5gtt
27-09-2012, 20:56
from what i have read the ktec f4r turbo manifold is off another renault? it can be brought from renault for arund £80.
quote
Spec isnt a secret, its a 197 head to decompress it on the standard 172 bottom end. Turbo is a MWMSport variant of a focus RS one, ST intercooler (you can tell Mike's still obsessed with fords, lol) Mtech V4 ECU, off the shelf renault turbo manifold.
quote
Manifold is a reanult one that Ktec sell at about 3 times the price that renault sell them for, so yes its the same as theirs but not bought from them obviously.
http://passionford.com/forum/general-car-related-discussion/412142-mwm-sport-clio-172-turbo-258bhp-graph.html
Wouldnt even need the 197 head. Machining the 172 head will do exactly the same!
Machining the pistons is also a possibility...
steer from the rear
28-09-2012, 09:36
Wouldnt even need the 197 head. Machining the 172 head will do exactly the same!
Machining the pistons is also a possibility...
but i take it the 197 head has better flow hence the 197 instead of the 172 (im sure the mapping has something to do with it) but if its a straight swap and has has a larger squish area to lower the C/R
you just chuck it on instant 9:1 C/R no compromise to piston crown thickness
instant turbo engine :smokin:
What renault is the exhaust manifold off?
A Megane apparently, not the R26 either.
the 197 head was just part off the experiment. it's not a straight swap, they had to drill holes for the belt tensioner.
this was a tryout for a conversion program mwn want to do and when they are going to do it they told to machine the 172 instead of using the 197 head...
this is the thread:
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?599541-Soon-to-be-turboed&highlight=mwm+turbo
btw - bypass for the immobiliser on 2001onwards clios......
http://www.hickleys.com/pdf/renault/rae.pdf
steer from the rear
01-10-2012, 21:42
btw - bypass for the immobiliser on 2001onwards clios......
http://www.hickleys.com/pdf/renault/rae.pdf
looks like its just a wire to make a circuit back to one of the pins in the OBD scocket...............any one know which pin does which in the ODB plugs in a clio!!!!!!!!
ive a uch which tells my dash im doing 60 in a 30 and have crazy ABS as a result :cry:
this might just save me trying to remove and replace the immobiliser (NOT THAT I KNOW WHERE IT IS ON THE pcb) from my UCH and possibly screwing up both UCH'S :scared::(
Tony Walker
01-10-2012, 21:47
uchs arent coded.
Tony Walker
01-10-2012, 21:49
think there around £140 ish from renault... just plug and play, swap all the fuses. cant understand why thats affecting your abs tho?
steer from the rear
01-10-2012, 22:25
think there around £140 ish from renault... just plug and play, swap all the fuses. cant understand why thats affecting your abs tho?
heres the story :bothered: i swapped a engine out of a 1.4 16v clio into my 1.4 16v clio
the new clio i took the engine out of had rain sensitive wipers and other things i didnt (hence why i dont have intermittent on my wiper stork :( )
i had to swap the key, the UCH and engine ecu..........but its as if the clocks and abs and wiper stork dont work with the new UCH
the speedo effects the abs as it thinks the fronts are doing 60 when the backs are doing 30 according to my snap on ethos so i can only think when i break its like "o **** its gonna lock up, pulses the break pedal"
i need my old UCH to work my wipers, air con, speedo but it doesnt run the engine due to the wrong key and engine ecu
basically if i could have my new immobiliser code on my old UCH id be :laugh:
i think my new engine ecu, UCH and key are not compatible with my car :scared:
help please :agree:
last time i looked i seen prices for a UCH AROUND 400 +CODING!!!!
Tony Walker
01-10-2012, 22:47
i c :( never had to change a clio uch, lots of megane uch's there not coded, cant understand why renault coded the clios :( i guess you could pull the fuse on the abs? strange how the two clios arent the same. what years were the two cars?
steer from the rear
01-10-2012, 22:52
i c :( never had to change a clio uch, lots of megane uch's there not coded, cant understand why renault coded the clios :( i guess you could pull the fuse on the abs? strange how the two clios arent the same. what years were the two cars?
i did pull the abs but looses the speedo lmao ive a new slogan for renault
RENAULT...... LIFE'S A BITCH
clios 51 and a dynamic and the donor was 53 and cant remember but better
engines were the same just wish i never threw the first ecu out :cry::cry::cry::cry:
mot is coming up so the cars going the scrap yard as it wont get a mot with a abs light, a air bag light and a engine light on :(
Mot is coming up so the cars going the scrap yard as it wont get a mot with a abs light, a air bag light and a engine light on :(
dont be too hasty, perhaps you could just remove the dash bulbs for these issues just to get the years ticket :ashamed: :laugh:
You can get them sorted afterwards :D
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
I had this turbo kit from Engine Dynamics fitted to my 172 cup and was by far the best money i spent and never had any problems with it and was so much fun.
Markey Mark (BD)
30-05-2013, 20:26
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
I had this turbo kit from Engine Dynamics fitted to my 172 cup and was by far the best money i spent and never had any problems with it and was so much fun.
Which kit did you go for?
I'm saving the money up to send my Clio 172 over there to have the high boost 280bhp kit fitted :D
andybond
30-05-2013, 23:02
I had one that was similar to ED kit. It went like chuff !
It's rearing it's ugly head again :D
I'm asking myself the question yet again, the difference this time is I have the cash to purchase the ED kit outright...... So why am I stalling? The PMT in me still stupidly thinks it can be done cheaper...... :scared:
Big Steve - Raider
02-01-2014, 23:02
It's rearing it's ugly head again :D
I'm asking myself the question yet again, the difference this time is I have the cash to purchase the ED kit outright...... So why am I stalling? The PMT in me still stupidly thinks it can be done cheaper...... :scared:
Thats an affliction we all suffer from Ricardo ;)
It's bugging the hell outta me Steve :D
Have a look on Cliosport, AndyRG on there has built quite a few boosted Clio's and has started a company.
Lot's of boosted Clio's popping up there all being done by him.
I can't see higher boost being a problem, just fit Megane pistons, Turn off the vvt, fit a t28/gt28 and ofcourse all the ancilliaries to get it working.
Have a look on Cliosport, AndyRG on there has built quite a few boosted Clio's and has started a company.
Lot's of boosted Clio's popping up there all being done by him.
I can't see higher boost being a problem, just fit Megane pistons, Turn off the vvt, fit a t28/gt28 and ofcourse all the ancilliaries to get it working.
I've already spoken to him :)
That's another option
Megane as in F4RT pistons?
Yup, only doenside to them is they don't have valve pockets so you would have to leave vvt disabled. Or fit a megane pulley so you also get rid of the annoying dephaser
DIY all day everyday heres my thread from ClioSport
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?635501-How-to-build-a-genuine-300-Turbo-Clio
And heres a step by step photo guide on my Photobucket on how to install a low boost conversion. (organise oldest first)
http://s274.photobucket.com/user/SP33DFOUR/library/Clio%20Turbo?sort=2&page=1
Why people would want un qualified numpties working on their car I really have no idea :scratch:, at least if you do it yourself if it goes wrong you'll have an idea on how to fix it.
Aii, what you need Ricky is a weekend...a project weekend...a project weekend with some winter headwear :D
Andrew Cooke
03-01-2014, 08:14
make sure you use our discount code when looking at ED prices, the discount is significant - manifold, IC pipes etc. It might also be worth having a chat with Scoff.
If you can get ED down to around 3k for the 280bhp conversion I don`t even think its worth touching it yourself. The time and effort you put in to try save will probably just cost more in the long run.
DaveL485
03-01-2014, 09:45
I wanted bigger brakes for my 21 but the only kit available was £1200, for 325mm bells/rotors & 4-pots, Off the shelf.
I made my own for just shy of £600, but it took time and effort and patience. Ironically the calipers and pads I used are the same ones in the £1200 kit, but I made my own hangers and sourced some 330mm discs that were a straight fit to my hubs (Clio V6 330mm fronts, 5x108 stud and 57.something mm spigot, identical to the R21T). £600 saved, a few months of messing about on and off, and my hangers are a little heavier than what I would have bought with the kit.
On the flipside, I paid Scoff to fit my Adaptronic to the 21. I bought the unit, the wiring, triggerwheel, blah blah blah but weighing up the options, my skill level with the application at hand, and what was at risk against the cost of paying Scoff to do it for me led to the easy choice of shipping the car off to EFI Parts.
So- can you be arsed with time, effort and messing about to save some money? More to the point, do you have the technical skill to do it? Saving £500 is great, but only if it doesn't grenade itself after 50 miles. Think of the extra cost of the kit as insurance....do you want to be "insured" against issues?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-Clio-182-Cup-Sport-Turbo-282bhp-Quafe-Track-Rally-Race-Hi-Spec-28k-/171206720370?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item27dcb73b72
something already done with extra bits like gearbox, ecu etc
Do we get discount with ED?
Andy, Dave, Rich, i think you're right. The hard work has been done with the kit, all i do is buy it having the reassurance that the research and development (with Scoffs mapping) has been done. I think Matt @Codered is dreading the next phonecall from me :D
Now thinking for the extra money its probably worth going forged pistons for the 280bhp.
My ultimate aim is to have it done by Sangliers in June
Aii, what you need Ricky is a weekend...a project weekend...a project weekend with some winter headwear :D
Project :cartman: :D
I'll be calling ED on Monday, the kit still needs fitting. The engine will come out and have a refresh inside and out, powdercoated parts etc.
Do we get discount with ED?
Details are in the contacts section ;)
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
03-01-2014, 10:52
Do we get discount with ED?
Andy, Dave, Rich, i think you're right. The hard work has been done with the kit, all i do is buy it having the reassurance that the research and development (with Scoffs mapping) has been done. I think Matt @Codered is dreading the next phonecall from me :D
Now thinking for the extra money its probably worth going forged pistons for the 280bhp.
My ultimate aim is to have it done by Sangliers in June
.........:sos:
Details are in the contacts section ;)
Ooh... That's good, just seen it :)
Why go forged pistons? Seriously i would strongly advice using the megane pistons.
Forged pistons need more wall to piston clearance because of the expand ratio. Thus every cold start will cause more wear than with normal pistons. The megane pistons are proven over 300bhp so i don't see the problem tbh.
For what this conversion may end up potentially costing, and just throwing you another idea into the equation, why not sell the Clio & buy a Megane 225/230 instead?
~£4k for a reasonable 225/F1 team, or a couple of bags more opens up the 230/R26 option, which has the LSD in situ.
There's a LY 250 engine'd clio 3 sport for sale on Cliosport for 9k.
Absolutely lovely car, shame the steering wheel is on the wrong side for me!
Big Steve - Raider
03-01-2014, 12:59
For what this conversion may end up potentially costing, and just throwing you another idea into the equation, why not sell the Clio & buy a Megane 225/230 instead?
~£4k for a reasonable 225/F1 team, or a couple of bags more opens up the 230/R26 option, which has the LSD in situ.
This would be my option. :)
For what this conversion may end up potentially costing, and just throwing you another idea into the equation, why not sell the Clio & buy a Megane 225/230 instead?
~£4k for a reasonable 225/F1 team, or a couple of bags more opens up the 230/R26 option, which has the LSD in situ.
I did think that, i mean what would 6k get me Megane wise? Why stop there, what would buy me anything hot for 6k.
The flipside in doing the Clio
Power to weight against the likes of a Megane 225/250, Ford RS Focus etc
Something achieved in having a 280bhp Clio for a fraction of the cost of much newer cars
The only Petrol Blue to be turbo...... Yet, maybe
This is why i haven't just gone in and purchased anything yet, but something that's been burning away for a year or 2 now.
andybond
03-01-2014, 13:19
The megane engine is weak. The rods bend at >300ibft. I think it could be due to the way that the car produces the torque , mine is mapped with a decat filter fmic and it has a almost vertical torque increase at 2700rpm
the box off the r26 ( the one with the LSD ) can be had for £500
The megane fuel system is also pretty poor and cannot fuel when getting above 400bhp. A seperate fuel cell / pump / system will need to be factored in.
Injectors are available pretty cheaply from the states.
Standard f4r with turbo ( incorrectly called f4rT there was no markification from renault for that one ! ) produces 230CV or around 227bhp
Intercooler and air filter plus map will yield around 250bhp and 270ft ib
Decat on the above + 25bhp and +30ft ib to the above
Injectors + Turbo ( the standard one runs out of puff around 290hp ) will yield 300 hp and a capped limit of 300ft ib
You are then going to have to forge the lump or risk a rod banana.
andybond
03-01-2014, 13:20
Something achieved in having a 280bhp Clio for a fraction of the cost of much newer cars
When me and Dean had the Clio 172 mit turbo it went like a chuffing train. Needed a LSD desperatly though.
Just to say i'm not looking for anything 'mental' power wise, i'm not looking for pub bragging rights/figures. I'm looking for more useable power out on road and track, to me +250bhp is a bit of a waste on a road going FWD car.
The ED kit IMO seems to provide everything capable of giving me that...... If i can get the pistons in at a decent package price you could say it's a safeguard option, plus it's all done in one go and the lump doesnt have to be pulled apart at a later date :ashamed:
When me and Dean had the Clio 172 mit turbo it went like a chuffing train. Needed a LSD desperatly though.
I'll be speaking to Matt about a Quaife option
andybond
03-01-2014, 13:32
I'm looking for more useable power out on road and track, to me +250bhp is a bit of a waste on a road going FWD car.
I can vouch that 275bhp and 300ftib is fine on the road and track. I have drive a 451bhp meg and it felt perfect in the dry.
As has been mentioned this turbo Clio (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-Clio-182-Cup-Sport-Turbo-282bhp-Quafe-Track-Rally-Race-Hi-Spec-28k-/171206720370?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item27dcb73b72) on Ebay is a bargain for whats been done to it. If you've got 6K to spend then it's even under budget.
As for the Meg engine being weak, I disagree with that. Most of the problems I've seen are from people wanting to put too much boost through them which creates stupid torque and goes hand in hand with the other problem,the fuel system. With the FPR not having a boost reference port the fuel pressure drops off as you increase the boost causing them to run lean.
Getting rid of the clio to buy a Meg is a good idea, but you still have the same amount of work to do if you want 330+ bhp from either of them
The rods bend at >300ibft.
It's usually (high) rpm, and prolonged usage at that level, that kills rods, not torque.
Imho.
andybond
03-01-2014, 13:51
As for the Meg engine being weak, I disagree with that. Most of the problems I've seen are from people wanting to put too much boost through them
I dont agree with too much boost. Two of the big renault tuners ( Henk @ Fastchips + Paul @ Rs tuning ) wont go beyond 300ib ft. They have smooth progressive maps. The engines just bend the rods.
See the curve ?
http://s17.postimg.cc/duxm1f64v/finalmap.jpg
andybond
03-01-2014, 13:52
It's usually (high) rpm, and prolonged usage at that level, that kills rods, not torque.
Imho.
Understand where you are coming from Mart , but there is a pattern on the cars that if a decat is added to a car , and more than 3--ftib is run then they rod bend. Since the self imposed limit of 300ftib has been established AFAIK there have been no bends.
Understand where you are coming from Mart , but there is a pattern on the cars that if a decat is added to a car , and more than 3--ftib is run then they rod bend. Since the self imposed limit of 300ftib has been established AFAIK there have been no bends.
Yada yada yada ;) :D They said the same in the MLR world about Evo o.e rods failing at 400+, yet ~6 years ownership, keeping the revs the happy side of 7k, proved otherwise.
When these F4r rods fail, is it complete failure (ie, snapped), or do they bend? What's the condition of the big-end bearings at time of rod failure?
How many rod failures have been reported?
We'll just have to disagree Andy. IMHO the turbo is too small hence the high torque at low RPM and the rapid drop off further up the rev range.
The Meg 250 has the same basic internals, however it has VVT and a better flowing turbo, Paul is mapping them to well over 300lb/ft with out any issues
andybond
03-01-2014, 14:20
The Meg 250 has the same basic internals, h
Naw , its a fair bit different from what I understand. The meg rods are the same as the 172 ones.
andybond
03-01-2014, 14:22
Yada yada yada ;) :D They said the same in the MLR world about Evo o.e rods failing at 400+, yet ~6 years ownership, keeping the revs the happy side of 7k, proved otherwise.
When these F4r rods fail, is it complete failure (ie, snapped), or do they bend? What's the condition of the big-end bearings at time of rod failure?
How many rod failures have been reported?
there are anomolies Mart , one guy has run 330bhp and 330ibft for 3 years without fault. Others fail quicker. Rods are bending not snapping.
I am unsure of big end condition once failed.
I am all for running more power through standard internals! I am in two minds whether to forge my lump so testing to destruction could be an idea :eek:
andybond
03-01-2014, 14:24
IMHO the turbo is too small hence the high torque at low RPM and the rapid drop off further up the rev range.
so by reducing the torque at a lower level and making the curve flatter you think that the rods could last longer ? Ie bolt a 3071 on , bigger injectors and hope ?
I dont know the answer to that one matey. Let me email Paul ( or Scoff - you able to comment ) for an answer.
The new Bill J
03-01-2014, 14:24
.....why not sell the Clio & buy a Megane 225/230 instead?
~£4k for a reasonable 225/F1 team, or a couple of bags more opens up the 230/R26 option, which has the LSD in situ.
This is what I've been thinking lately :scared:
andybond
03-01-2014, 14:29
If anyone wants to test a meg with a few mods they are always welcome to test mine.
there are anomolies Mart , one guy has run 330bhp and 330ibft for 3 years without fault. Others fail quicker. Rods are bending not snapping
Ok, well with what Mr Speedy mentions about the fuelling leaning off, I'd lay a firm bet there's detonation/knock at high rpm/load, and it's that, coupled with the high rpm, that's causing these rod failures.
Likewise, if bottom-end lubrication isn't sufficient enough (hence asking about the bearings condition), that would naturally induce extra heat into the rods, and with the additional/varying heat cycles, that may possibly also weaken the rods.
I am all for running more power through standard internals! I am in two minds whether to forge my lump so testing to destruction could be an idea :eek:
:agree: See what you can find out about the lubrication, and if all is good, and if you can keep the fuelling happy at the top end + don't be too rev-happy, I reckon you'd dispel that 300 lb-ft myth...
andybond
03-01-2014, 14:57
Ok, well with what Mr Speedy mentions about the fuelling leaning off, I'd lay a firm bet there's detonation/knock at high rpm/load, and it's that, coupled with the high rpm, that's causing these rod failures.
Likewise, if bottom-end lubrication isn't sufficient enough (hence asking about the bearings condition), that would naturally induce extra heat into the rods, and with the additional/varying heat cycles, that may possibly also weaken the rods.
:agree: See what you can find out about the lubrication, and if all is good, and if you can keep the fuelling happy at the top end + don't be too rev-happy, I reckon you'd dispel that 300 lb-ft myth...
Mart, I cant get my head around the fact the two of the best tuners out there would let the cars lean out / det / knock ?
I am not a rev bouncer !
I don't get to see many engines with standard rods still, but I am fairly sure it's related to load Mart. In my own experience I was bending, and then snapping rods when torque increased. I'd trust Paul's opinion on this one, he see's far more examples of tuned stock motors than anyone else, and I can vouch for his calibration ability :)
Mart, I cant get my head around the fact the two of the best tuners out there would let the cars lean out / det / knock ?
I'm not saying they do, but there's other scenarios that can induce detonation later down the line after the mapping session; ie, they fill up with 95ron fuel, a weak/failing fuel pump, fpr not holding pressure, high act's, oil/vapour being drawn into the cylinder, etc.
I don't get to see many engines with standard rods still, but I am fairly sure it's related to load Mart. In my own experience I was bending, and then snapping rods when torque increased. I'd trust Paul's opinion on this one, he see's far more examples of tuned stock motors than anyone else, and I can vouch for his calibration ability :)
Were you also high rev'ing though?
I'm certainly not questioning Paul @ RST's knowledge or experience, nor am I disagreeing per se with any points made; it's a good discussion (for a nice change :)). Just I personally don't subscribe to torque being the only factor associated to rod failures, hence highlighting other possibilities (imho) as to how/why they fail.
andybond
03-01-2014, 18:51
I'm not saying they do, but there's other scenarios that can induce detonation later down the line after the mapping session; ie, they fill up with 95ron fuel, a weak/failing fuel pump, fpr not holding pressure, high act's, oil/vapour being drawn into the cylinder, etc.
I hear what you are saying Mart. Just seems coincidental that a majority of > 300ftib Meg's bent rods. Most achieved this with the aid of a decat...
I have dropped Paul an email to enquire further.
Thanks for your contribution Scoff.
Spoke to Specky earlier and he thinks both meg 225's and 250's have the same pistons and rods.
I've tried researching it but the people who have rebuilt 250 engines didn't answer :crap:
Ahem...... :ashamed:
So, sub 300 everyone. ED kit, Clio.
It's not so much buy a Megane and modify, it's the upkeep, running, parts costs that would finish me off. At least with the Clio the parts are so much cheaper on the wear and tear side of things
andybond
03-01-2014, 23:41
Spoke to Specky earlier and he thinks both meg 225's and 250's have the same pistons and rods.
I dont doubt what Specky has said. Whats the difference then engine wise ? Why can the 250/265 be mapped so easily to produce that much more power ? 315bhp and similar on a standard map.
andybond
03-01-2014, 23:49
Ahem...... :ashamed:
So, sub 300 everyone. ED kit, Clio.
dont you dare drag this topic back on track !
( yes - ED seems the best. Didnt scoff help with the mapping ? )
Meg all day long, just for the handling. Andy Bonds r26 was epic with the lsd at blyton, could hook the power up no problems. Even stock open diff 225 handling is good.
However mpg is poor, but i imagine a turbo clio would be exactly the same
I dont doubt what Specky has said. Whats the difference then engine wise ? Why can the 250/265 be mapped so easily to produce that much more power ? 315bhp and similar on a standard map.
The only difference's I was aware of was that it was fitted with a better turbo and and better flowing cams. It's also got VVT, not the 16 degrees on/off like the clio 182 but the incremental set up like whats on the clio 197/200.
andybond
04-01-2014, 10:04
The only difference's I was aware of was that it was fitted with a better turbo and and better flowing cams. It's also got VVT, not the 16 degrees on/off like the clio 182 but the incremental set up like whats on the clio 197/200.
the turbo isnt drastically different from what I hear , but nobody has tested it to destruction. Paul has run on in Malaysia at 320bhp.
I know of one car that has the 250 engine in it ( a clio ) with VVT delete and its running strong power.
Need to investigate more.
( Sorry for the thread hijack ! )
andybond
04-01-2014, 10:05
However mpg is poor, but i imagine a turbo clio would be exactly the same
Depends on who did your map mate. Mine is reasonable when on it , and excellent when on the motorways.
In contrast the boosted clio I had was very , very good on juice.
dont you dare drag this topic back on track !
( yes - ED seems the best. Didnt scoff help with the mapping ? )
Yeah Scoff did the mapping side of things on the kit
andybond
04-01-2014, 11:55
Yeah Scoff did the mapping side of things on the kit
I dont think there is a better recommendation for the kit then. If It has his name on it and I was in the market I would be heading straight to them.
DaveL485
04-01-2014, 12:12
This is what I've been thinking lately :scared:
Bond text me an ad for a cat d Meg Turbo on an 05 last night. £1600, needs a rear bumper and an exhaust replacing. If I had the time and room...
If you're happy to drop the Clio Ricardo and buy the Megane instead, do that. Unequivocally, definitely without question. Less heartache, ballache, no time extended investment required and no spiraling project expense (because it ALWAYS DOES), it's a far, far better idea.
By, like, a billion times.
I sit on the other side of the fence & think you should turbo charge the Clio. :D
andybond
04-01-2014, 12:20
I sit on the other side of the fence & think you should turbo charge the Clio. :D
Having owned both I can say the clio is more of a giggle , but the megane the better all rounder.
Stop it boys you're making me sway to Megs :D
Just had a brief look on AT and up to 6k buys me a Megane R26 F1, Recaros, looks nice
Would obviously have the sell the Clio to finance the purchase, there are unknown quantities. Ive never been in a Meg R26, ive never been in a high boost 182 either.
It would be nice to have back to back test rides to see they're all about :)
What's different about the R26 to a 'normal' 225, i have to admit i prefer the later ones
andybond
04-01-2014, 13:08
Stop it boys you're making me sway to Megs :D
Just had a brief look on AT and up to 6k buys me a Megane R26 F1, Recaros, looks nice
Would obviously have the sell the Clio to finance the purchase, there are unknown quantities. Ive never been in a Meg R26, ive never been in a high boost 182 either.
It would be nice to have back to back test rides to see they're all about :)
What's different about the R26 to a 'normal' 225, i have to admit i prefer the later ones
The f1 is a cross over model.
You want the 230.
Comes with the better seats , LSD and either vanilla , or lux pack. Lux pack had various options inc xenons and keyless entry.
The f1 is a cross over model.
You want the 230.
Comes with the better seats , LSD and either vanilla , or lux pack. Lux pack had various options inc xenons and keyless entry.
Keyless entry will be fun with a flat battery. & with french electrics
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201312200635492/sort/default/usedcars/radius/1500/onesearchad/used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew/price-from/3000/make/renault/fuel-type/petrol/engine-size-cars/2l_to_2-5l/page/11/price-to/6000/postcode/ss73lf/model/megane?logcode=p
up to 6k buys me a Megane R26 F1
There's an echo in here :D
andybond
04-01-2014, 13:32
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201312200635492/sort/default/usedcars/radius/1500/onesearchad/used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew/price-from/3000/make/renault/fuel-type/petrol/engine-size-cars/2l_to_2-5l/page/11/price-to/6000/postcode/ss73lf/model/megane?logcode=p
Thats not a lux packed one ( mind you my Glacier White one isnt either )
dangerous dave
04-01-2014, 13:36
Is it not a case of, run a clio 182 for buttons and run a 225 for real money?
I'd just pay ED or whoever, my time could be spent earning money extra days on my day job rather than a slow learning curve into the clio turbo world. I also expect the fit and finish to look clean, when a lot of homers looks sh1t and remain a work in progress.
andybond
04-01-2014, 14:26
Some parts are expensive and quite rare. Steering racks are £200. Discs and pads aint cheap but then it is a quick , modern car.
Is it not a case of, run a clio 182 for buttons and run a 225 for real money?
I'd just pay ED or whoever, my time could be spent earning money extra days on my day job rather than a slow learning curve into the clio turbo world. I also expect the fit and finish to look clean, when a lot of homers looks sh1t and remain a work in progress.
ED are asking another grand to have the kit fitted.
Ok. theoretical situation.
Purchase the ED kit, there's no credit involved here it will all be paid for by me not borrowed or financed.
No real timescale for completion.... Although I see no reason why it can't be done by Sangliers in June this year.
My Clio has been modified in every way bar the power hike.
SPAX full coilover setup
Solid top mounts
Braided brake hoses
Ferodo DS2500 pads
Soild engine mounts
Polybushed gearbox mount
Scorpion exhaust
Scorpion decat pipe
So, engine out, complete refresh, paint the block, powdercoat parts. All this can be done along the way. I'm no stranger to a project on here and don't mind getting my hands dirty.
The question I ask myself.
Petrol Blue 182 mint running 280bhp or Megane R26 F1
The car I'd be doing the conversion to below
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3801/9671755657_6cfa69e924_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64860664@N04/9671755657/)
PBShoot 013 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/64860664@N04/9671755657/) by Ricard o1 (http://www.flickr.com/people/64860664@N04/), on Flickr
The new Bill J
04-01-2014, 15:02
Andy - What mpg can you get out of the Migranes? I've heard 30 on a motorway run.
One thing putting me off of them is the mpg. Not that it's so bad on the migranes, but that the Clios are so good!
I think I might FINALLY be coming round to that dodgy back end on the Migrane :scared:
Then it's a case of would I go for a cheap, bargain basement 225, or spunk my life savings on an all singing R26? If I get a bargain basement 225 and don't like it, I could always chuck the engine in a Clio :wasntme:
Bill, MPG wise I'm pretty sure you'll never beat the Clio (especially the phase 1) with the Megane
The new Bill J
04-01-2014, 15:08
Bill, MPG wise I'm pretty sure you'll never beat the Clio (especially the phase 1) with the Megane
Oh I've no doubt the Migrane wouldn't do as well as a Clio on mpg, even though I still struggle to get over 35 mpg out of mine :(. I just wondered how well they'd do with a map tweek.
I do have a nice turbo for you though :D
Forged rods too
dangerous dave
04-01-2014, 15:44
So your ready for the power increase then, no added extras... The other way to look at it, you won't get your money back in the clio so you should stick with it..
Mummy's clio 182 is coming to and end with her so will soon be mine.. I'm also tempted to turbo charge.. I like the Meg's and was offered one cheap but the running costs, mpg put me off.. The clio has only just cost some propper money for the 1st time in 60k from new with a snapped mid box.. It also chucked a light on but that was all exhaust related, mums short journeys had filled the exhaust with water and it was shafted..
I think the clio can handle more power, yours sounds like its ready...
Are you ready:burnrubber:
andybond
04-01-2014, 15:47
Andy - What mpg can you get out of the Migranes? I've heard 30 on a motorway run.
One thing putting me off of them is the mpg. Not that it's so bad on the migranes, but that the Clios are so good!
I think I might FINALLY be coming round to that dodgy back end on the Migrane :scared:
Then it's a case of would I go for a cheap, bargain basement 225, or spunk my life savings on an all singing R26? If I get a bargain basement 225 and don't like it, I could always chuck the engine in a Clio :wasntme:
If you can afford the r26 get it. The LSD changes the car. There are also other hidden suspension tricks and tweaks.
MPG wise , when mine was standard I got around 30mpg on the motorway and 26 round town.
Map 1 increased it to 32 and 28 ish
Map 2 increased again to around 36mpg and 29ish mpg when around town.
I can drop the mpg to mid teens on trackdays , but I suspect MPG isnt your primary concern there ..
come on rich make ya mind up we are all waiting for your decision matey id do the clio personally but thats me pmsl:laugh:
TNT ANDY
04-01-2014, 17:07
Meggy:agree:
The new Bill J
04-01-2014, 20:09
If you can afford the r26 get it. The LSD changes the car. There are also other hidden suspension tricks and tweaks.
Thanks for the reply. I could live with that fuel consumption. My Evo did 17mpg driving like a granny :laugh:
I don't really want to be spending £5k+ to get an R26, when I can get a 'normal' 225 for a few £k. I could stick a diff' in it as and when if I want. It would be an every day car, not something that I'm likely to test to it's limits. Hmmm, I dunno - I might just stick with the Clio :laugh:
Sorry for barging in Rickay :ashamed:
andybond
04-01-2014, 20:14
Thanks for the reply. I could live with that fuel consumption. My Evo did 17mpg driving like a granny :laugh:
I don't really want to be spending £5k+ to get an R26, when I can get a 'normal' 225 for a few £k. I could stick a diff' in it as and when if I want. It would be an every day car, not something that I'm likely to test to it's limits. Hmmm, I dunno - I might just stick with the Clio :laugh:
Sorry for barging in Rickay :ashamed:
The box is around £500. Lots of other tweaks. Mr Briggs was suitably impressed with a r26 over a 225. Not that a 225 is a bad car.
hhmmmmm
well.... I'm looking at a 172 for a bit of a fun car.... that said I've had my megane 10... OMG 10 years in April
its one of the first! :coffee:
and
I love it!
i did look back in 2005 at getting a trophy, but at the time, I kept mine...
Mine has been back to the motherland far too many times... over there on their fuel sitting at 80 (honest) she'll do mid 30's, but doing 70.... its low 30's! guess they are gear'd for french motorways!!
around town its 20ish... I do 3 miles to work and 3 miles home and I get 23mpg.
weekend before xmas I went with a few mates for a play on the finest welsh roads there are.... I went in the megane *doh*, my mate in his 330ci msport and a mk5 golf gti
and my 2 mates are now looking at 225/230's! I did 27mpg the golf did 23 and the bmw you dont' want to know.... I wasn't driving like Billy, as I was in the front and they had to keep up!!!! and a few times i was waiting
I had mine re-mapped when it was 12months old.... well I had a contact back in in dieppe, who sent me a 'map' and canclip uploaded it in the workshop.... and it made a difference! but.... its been in 2 stealerships since and I have a feeling they've done a sneaky 'update' that you don't get told about as it doesn't feel how it did... either that or i'm finally getting us'd to it!!!!!:scratch:
I've had ds2500 pads in... but they really killed the std discs! and for day use i'm back on genuine Brembo pads and discs, plus they took bloody ages to warm up!!! i guess for track use they are a must! as when warm your head will go through the window!!!!
same as if you're doing track days I guess a diff will be needed..... but i've not driven one... so can't comment really
what would I change..... the boot drips water down your neck when you open it.... the std seats are a little too high... recaro's fix that i'm told...
people say the electronic steering can be vague... but with decent tyres i find it i get the same feedback the v6 gave me... so thats prob vague
tyres are a must... I've had a few sets..:wasntme: std conti's, that lasted 6k!!!! 2 sets of goodyear eagle f1... avons (****) and now i'm on michelin ps3 and they are amazing!!!!!
i'm still on std filter and exhaust.. and they'll be next but I'm Welsh and tight so the exhaust needs to fall off before I'll change it!!! well its lasted 10 years so far!!!:laugh:
but..... i'd park it in the garage for a sorted 172 cup!!!! :dearme: but i'm not sure the 172 would cut it with the wife, dogs and trips to france
hope that confuses you even more
Moggs
andybond
04-01-2014, 20:51
what would I change..... the boot drips water down your neck when you open it.... the std seats are a little too high... recaro's fix that i'm told...
Easy fix. Small length of electricians tape across the place where the metal meets the plastic lip.
tyres are a must... I've had a few sets..:wasntme: std conti's, that lasted 6k!!!! 2 sets of goodyear eagle f1... avons (****) and now i'm on michelin ps3 and they are amazing!!!!!
True. They changed to Michelin ps2 as OEM ps2 are still available, I rate them over the ps3. Personal choice.
In reference to the seats, the recaros are better than the 225 seats but they are not much lower. People often mod them and it typically costs £100. Will feel more like the r26r then
oh.... and incase you wondered whey I didn't comment on cars newer than the trophy... ie 230 or r26....
i don't like the look of the facelift ones!!!!!!! :laugh::cooter:
andybond
04-01-2014, 22:07
oh.... and incase you wondered whey I didn't comment on cars newer than the trophy... ie 230 or r26....
i don't like the look of the facelift ones!!!!!!! :laugh::cooter:
Get some new glasses on old man :p:cool:
Andrew Cooke
04-01-2014, 23:03
Moggy, are you sure they were DS2500? I've never noticed the need to warm mine, either in the 5, or Twingo with 172 brakes.
Were you also high rev'ing though?
I'm certainly not questioning Paul @ RST's knowledge or experience, nor am I disagreeing per se with any points made; it's a good discussion (for a nice change :)). Just I personally don't subscribe to torque being the only factor associated to rod failures, hence highlighting other possibilities (imho) as to how/why they fail.
They only failed when I started to push boost Mart. For me that makes RPM less of a factor.
But, the truth is we don't know for sure what kills them. It's just my 2p :)
andybond
05-01-2014, 00:19
They only failed when I started to push boost Mart. For me that makes RPM less of a factor.
But, the truth is we don't know for sure what kills them. It's just my 2p :)
Scoff , dont know or didnt investigate ? Please dont take that the wrong way. Was it simply a case of not looking and just forging ?
Genuine interest. I want to find out what I can do to run more power ( with out forging ) and remove its limitations.
Its just too much of an unknown for me to accept.
I didn't investigate Andy, so it is just 2p's worth, barely :) Take it with a pinch of salt.
I was being a cheap skate, using standard pistons and rods at 2 bar of boost. I got a few weeks out of them until one came though the front of the block, the other 3 were bent and probably not far behind.
andybond
05-01-2014, 00:28
I didn't investigate Andy, so it is just 2p's worth, barely :) Take it with a pinch of salt.
I was being a cheap skate, using standard pistons and rods at 2 bar of boost. I got a few weeks out of them until one came though the front of the block, the other 3 were bent and probably not far behind.
My plan is the cheap skate one without the piston / block inference problem. Slightly less pressure than you though
:)
What I am ultimately looking for is what enables the meg250 to run more torque and not kill the rods ?
Yes, I wasn't happy about that interface problem, it happened during some late night motorway mapping the night before a big santa pod meeting. :ashamed:
I don't know about the Megane 250 differences sorry. Seems to me that if they're the same rod then they should have much the same limit. Small changes in compression ratio are not going to bother them much.
andybond
05-01-2014, 00:42
I don't know about the Megane 250 differences sorry. Seems to me that if they're the same rod then they should have much the same limit. Small changes in compression ratio are not going to bother them much.
From what I am discovering the head is worked differently and has more volume. The pistons are different ( same rods ) and VVT.
It drops the CR quite drastically.
Looking into my options
The cylinder head seems to be the same as the 197 clio, with the VVT and cam sensor fitted, but I've never seen the combustion chambers to see if they are the same as the clio or the same as the old 225.
I'm guessing the pistons will have valve cut outs due to the VVT and wilder cams, theres a 250 running a gtx 28 turbo and it's making pretty much the same as I was at 1.2 bar. So I'm guessing the cams aren't a million miles away from a stock set off 182 cams.
If the rods are the same then compression height must be the same, so we can't blame rod ratio. If compression is much lower then maybe that's a factor but I can't see Renault dropping the CR more than a couple of 10ths ?
Does the 250 have the same CNC cut inlets as the 197 Steve ?
Not sure Chris, I'm in the same boat as you and not really had loads to do with them. I'm sure the inlet manifolds were the same though.
Heres a thread on meganesport, theres a photo without the inlet on and they look the same shape as a standard 225
http://www.meganesport.net/community/showthread.php?58672-Engine-Megane-RS-250-in-Megane-RS-II
Looks like the 250 is running fuel return, you can see the FPR in the centre of the fuel rail
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 01:06
There might be something in how well the ECU deals with transients, sprung mass flywheels doing weird stuff, traction control putting in crazy torsionals. Or maybe it is just the cylinder pressure (torque) bending them. Either way, they don't look especially stout, not like the midget wrestlers forearms in the GTT.
Ah I see Steve. The 197 has very large inlet ports, 60x32mm with some nice CNC work. bare cast exhaust ports, the same as a 182.
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 01:09
Looks like the 250 is running fuel return, you can see the FPR in the centre of the fuel rail
that makes a lot of sense, even my Twingo is like that :D
Yeah, whilst the 225 heads have that small cut out at the top of the port for the injector angle. They do look big ports on those photos so it could possibly be that they have modified the 197 head?
that makes a lot of sense, even my Twingo is like that :D
I know, but believe it or not meg 225's and 230's have the FPR in the tank, with no boost reference. People fit 630cc injectors to compensate for the fuel leaning out when the boost is turned up.
If I had a meg 230 it'd be fitting a 250 fuel rail and a fuel return.
I remember telling someone to try F7 rods Andy. They're a beefy item and 144mm, so they go right in. He retorted with "I've been told they're made from poor material and I was advised against it". So who knows. That could be good old tuner bull****. What I do know is that I've never seen an F7 rod break. Plenty of them are turbocharged running healthy power. But, thats another 2p, so remember to apply the salt :laugh:
Yeah, whilst the 225 heads have that small cut out at the top of the port for the injector angle. They do look big ports on those photos so it could possibly be that they have modified the 197 head?
Those are smaller than 197, but look wider than the 225 so maybe it's a 197 style casting with a different port. The 197 inlet port is a bit serious for a factory turbo.
Those are smaller than 197, but look wider than the 225 so maybe it's a 197 style casting with a different port. The 197 inlet port is a bit serious for a factory turbo.
Yeah that's part of the reason I used a 197 head, in hind sight if I'd of known it would take so long I'd of had the exhaust ports modified.
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 01:25
I remember telling someone to try F7 rods Andy. They're a beefy item and 144mm, so they go right in. He retorted with "I've been told they're made from poor material and I was advised against it". So who knows. That could be good old tuner bull****. What I do know is that I've never seen an F7 rod break. Plenty of them are turbocharged running healthy power. Thats another 2p, so remember to apply the salt :laugh:
It's more likely that the F4 part has had a lot more structural analysis to take weight out of it, that may mean that it's a better material, but it might not mean that it's stronger. more lieky they found that they didn't need to be as strong as the F7, so cheapened them. I'd want to do some testing before taking any of this as gospel. They'll be fine in my car, and if not I'll have to build a monster to get the benefit of the stronger parts :sad2:
andybond
05-01-2014, 01:44
If the rods are the same then compression height must be the same, so we can't blame rod ratio. If compression is much lower then maybe that's a factor but I can't see Renault dropping the CR more than a couple of 10ths ?
8.7:1 down to 8.4.1
Meg 230 head is 42.4cc , 250 45cc
andybond
05-01-2014, 01:46
that makes a lot of sense, even my Twingo is like that :D
The 250 doesnt have a return , but does have rising rate. .
I measured a 197 head at about 45cc I recall, so possibly the 250 and 197 chambers are the same. 8.4:1, thats a low CR for a modern turbo engine!
andybond
05-01-2014, 01:48
I measured a 197 head at about 45cc I recall, so possibly the 250 and 197 chambers are the same. 8.4:1, thats a low CR for a modern turbo engine!
You recall correctly ! :)and the 197/200 chambers being the same as the 250/265 seems to be true.
the 172/182 has the same cc as the 225/r26
The 250 doesnt have a return , but does have rising rate. .
It looks like an FPR on one of those photos, you sure they don't have a return? if not I wonder if its a fuel rail off something else?
I know the VW 1.8T fuel rail has exactly the same injector spacings as an F4R, it just needs the securing tabs modifying
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 09:34
It looks like an FPR on one of those photos, you sure they don't have a return? if not I wonder if its a fuel rail off something else?
I know the VW 1.8T fuel rail has exactly the same injector spacings as an F4R, it just needs the securing tabs modifying
I just had a squint around the internet, Paul from RS tuning describes a 5 bar regulator in the tank, and a 3 bar on the rail, but with no return. I guess that means the one in the rail is more like the regulator on a gas bottle rather than the pressure release valve we're used to.
There must be a reason for the 5 bar regulator, I suspect the one in the rail requires it to remain stable, so it possibly won't work alone. That, or maybe it's to stop the pump running at it's own full pressure continually, driving hard against the rail regulator (full pressure is max current, so a hard environment for the pump to live, and a waste of power).
Assuming Paul is correct about those pressures, line pressure will limit at under 2 bar boost, not a problem for most. There is nothing to say that the regulator will be able to flow enough for an engine with 2 bar boost, so it may well drop off before that.
For an easy life I'd stay away from this setup until someone has tested it at the kind of power you'd want to run (unless you have the bits sat there, in which case I'd bench test their limits before going anywhere near a car).
Moggy, are you sure they were DS2500? I've never noticed the need to warm mine, either in the 5, or Twingo with 172 brakes.
I have never had this prob with the T2 or gtt....
I did ask around an email various company's and they said it might of been the discs!
I've still got there here as when the killed the set of discs that was on the car... I bought pads and hc discs from Brembo and just fitted them as a set
tbh I might throw them back in soon as a few of us are planning a weekend of 'playing' and see what they are like with the brembo hc discs but if it stops any quicker than what it does at the moment... my mates 330ci might join forces with my rear bumper as he couldn't stop as quick as me last time we 'played'!! :wasntme:
Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, but that sounds ridiculous?
Surely if it has a a 5 bar reg in tank, then the whole fuel system including the rail will be at a constant 5 bar fuel pressure?
I'm guessing that the ECU must use the MAP sensor to calculate any fluctuations in the fuel pressure to keep the fueling correct.
I know of a meg 250 in France running 380bhp with a hybrid turbo but that one's forged.
I asked the lad if he had pictures of the original pistons and rods but he never replied unfortunately!
I'm very curious myself too even if it's only for the knowledge.
Regarding the f7 vs f4 rods, yes they are way more beefy!
Btw, Andy how is your project doing? You never made a thread on here right? And the one on cs isn't updated for quite a while...
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 10:02
Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, but that sounds ridiculous?
Surely if it has a a 5 bar reg in tank, then the whole fuel system including the rail will be at a constant 5 bar fuel pressure?
I'm guessing that the ECU must use the MAP sensor to calculate any fluctuations in the fuel pressure to keep the fueling correct.
If the regulator is on the inlet to the fuel rail, the fuel rail will be at 3 bar, and everything else will be 5 bar. This assumes that it's a regulator, not the prv that we're used to.
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 10:06
Btw, Andy how is your project doing? You never made a thread on here right? And the one on cs isn't updated for quite a while...
it's stalled, I'll update here when there is more news. In short, getting the gearbox sorted has been a saga, but I have it back now. I'm working outside, and it rains on every free day I get :(
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 10:09
I have never had this prob with the T2 or gtt....
I did ask around an email various company's and they said it might of been the discs!
I've still got there here as when the killed the set of discs that was on the car... I bought pads and hc discs from Brembo and just fitted them as a set
tbh I might throw them back in soon as a few of us are planning a weekend of 'playing' and see what they are like with the brembo hc discs but if it stops any quicker than what it does at the moment... my mates 330ci might join forces with my rear bumper as he couldn't stop as quick as me last time we 'played'!! :wasntme:
Is there any possibility that the pads are fake? On the GTT I had cheapo disks, wear wasn't an issue, it only ran for a minute at a time :) On the Twingo I have Brembo HC discs.
Lol, so many guys called Andy i must have made a mistake.
I meant speedy :D
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Arthur's%20files%20(Tutuur)/image.jpg
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Arthur's%20files%20(Tutuur)/F7%20pistons%20specs%20and%20fotos/image.jpg
Surely if the line pressure is 5 bar, the rail reg doesn't have anywhere to vent the excess fuel pressure due to not having a return line so it will also hit 5 bar?
Tutuur, it's coming along slow mate. I'm hoping to have it finished by the summer but it's all work dependant. Heres a small pic of what I'm working with
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/SP33DFOUR/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0070_zpsjy8hkshg.JPG (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/SP33DFOUR/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0070_zpsjy8hkshg.JPG.html)
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 10:47
Surely if the line pressure is 5 bar, the rail reg doesn't have anywhere to vent the excess fuel pressure due to not having a return line so it will also hit 5 bar?
Think about a gas bottle regulator, where does that vent to?
A normal fuel pressure 'regulator' is a PRV, not a regulator.
I see what your saying Andy, I still think its a stupid set up though. :D
Hhhmmm twinscroll? Gt35?
Exactly my kind of stuff! This is what i want to build in the future!
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2014, 11:10
I see what your saying Andy, I still think its a stupid set up though. :D
it does seem an awfully complicated way not to have a return line. But then we're not trying to save pence off the price of building a car.
Hhhmmm twinscroll? Gt35?
Exactly my kind of stuff! This is what i want to build in the future!
It's just a GTX3071R :ashamed:, I wanted really responsive boost as when I moved from a GT28RS to a GT2871R I was pretty surprised at the spool difference from the extra 11mm on the comp wheel.
Obviously a GTX35 will bolt straight on so it's future proof :D
If i read all the Amreican forums good they say the response of a ts gtx35 is the same as a gtx3071 ss.
The 30 will probably be just as or maybe more responsive than the 2871 because of the t2 iwg housing.
Will be good to see how yours goes as i'm destined to build a ts big turbo f4 in the future!
Ideally I'm trying to replicate the GT28RS response with a stronger top end than the GT2871R, from what I've read regarding twin scroll setup's is they don't look any better on a dyno graph but they give much better road manners and response.
We'll see what its like when I get it finished.
Well i've seen a few evo dyno's and they did spool a bit better than their ss counterparts but as you say the transient is supposed to be out of this world!
Matt Cole
05-01-2014, 12:39
Tutuur, it's coming along slow mate. I'm hoping to have it finiscollector I'mummer but it's all work dependant. Heres a small pic of what I'm working with
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/SP33DFOUR/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0070_zpsjy8hkshg.JPG (http://s274.photobucket.com/user/SP33DFOUR/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0070_zpsjy8hkshg.JPG.html)
Steeve, how are the supply runners to the wastegates fitted? Are they fron a divided collector or branched from a pair of runners? Are the supply runners equal length to each gate? Ive really had to compromise on mine and have one longer than the other. Not sure what real world impact that might have on the control?
Scoff can some sort of trick boost controller sort any indifference in the wastegate controls?
Now then chubby cheeks I'll what's app you a picture of my manifold. :)
Is there any possibility that the pads are fake? On the GTT I had cheapo disks, wear wasn't an issue, it only ran for a minute at a time :) On the Twingo I have Brembo HC discs.
i wish... bought from tweeks at £130!! :scratch: from when I spoke to the guy at the brembo importers he said that from the info he had, the std discs aren't brembo items, and I should use them with HC discs, which I now have... tbh I'll give them ago again soon, but it means swapping them... and its cold and wet and as the car stops at the mo, I' can't be arsed! LOL
Open a project on here mate! I want to see them too :D
Paul has just made 352bhp on a Meg 250 running stock internals looks to be about 370lb/ft of torque as well.
Upgrades are hybrid turbo, 630cc injectors and a 3" turbo back exhaust.
Not a bad effort
No banana'd rods at that level of torque then? ;)
Matt Cole
06-01-2014, 22:38
Wow. Did the gearbox last the whole power run?:coffee:
andybond
06-01-2014, 22:57
No banana'd rods at that level of torque then? ;)
250 engine with different pistons than that r26 engine. Sarcastic so and so :p
andybond
06-01-2014, 23:00
Paul has just made 352bhp on a Meg 250 running stock internals looks to be about 370lb/ft of torque as well.
Upgrades are hybrid turbo, 630cc injectors and a 3" turbo back exhaust.
Not a bad effort
No mention of injectors or turbo back in post? No doubting, just querying!
It's the Green writing on the actual graph.
250 engine with different pistons than that r26 engine. Sarcastic so and so :p
:D I thought the internals were identical though? (to the R26). Speedy confirmed that on a previous page, no?
Get that torque wound up you geeza :)
andybond
07-01-2014, 08:47
:D I thought the internals were identical though? (to the R26). Speedy confirmed that on a previous page, no?
Get that torque wound up you geeza :)
I have ascertained that the pistons are different ...
DaveL485
07-01-2014, 08:51
Get that torque wound up you geeza :)
Have you seen his history with cars? Here it is.
Buys car
[Bad things happen]
Large expense and emotional trauma
Repeat ad-infinitum.
If Bond rolls the rod-dice he'll end up with a 6-6-6 :cry::wasntme:
I have ascertained that the pistons are different ...
I thought we were discussing rod failures...
I thought Ricardo was asking about the engine dynamics conversion:laugh:
andybond
07-01-2014, 11:45
I thought we were discussing rod failures...
We were.
But ,
The 250 runs lower comp than the r26.
The 250 appears not to fail until well over 370ib ft
The r26 at just over 300ib ft
I darent risk it.
Well , I dare , but I darent risk the wrath of the wife when I tell her I need to forge the engine , buy a new manifold , new head , big turbo and fuel system to run 450 bhp.
andybond
07-01-2014, 11:58
I thought Ricardo was asking about the engine dynamics conversion:laugh:
Minor detail.
Its reading around the subject on the theoretic limits of a f4r ..
I thought Ricardo was asking about the engine dynamics conversion:laugh:
:D
Its making for a good read, and refreshing to read up on technical info which will might be useful sooner or later :)
So with the 182 F4R high boost sub 300 Tutuur is saying use the Megane pistons but having to do away with the VVT, why is this? I know he says the pistons are different but i dont know the reason what effect it then have when using the Meg ones with VVT installed still.
andybond
07-01-2014, 13:44
:D
Its making for a good read, and refreshing to read up on technical info which will might be useful sooner or later :)
So with the 182 F4R high boost sub 300 Tutuur is saying use the Megane pistons but having to do away with the VVT, why is this? I know he says the pistons are different but i dont know the reason what effect it then have when using the Meg ones with VVT installed still.
Why not just use the laguna pistons ? Cheaper again ...
I see nobody has mentioned the price of a decent clutch for the meg when the power is increased £££:laugh:
We were.
But ,
The 250 runs lower comp than the r26.
The 250 appears not to fail until well over 370ib ft
The r26 at just over 300ib ft
And?
:)
And?
:)
Keep up Mart, we've been there already in this thread :p
A lower compression ratio drops peak cylinder pressure. That might have some bearing on rod failure (no pun intended). Or maybe not that much. :)
:D
Its making for a good read, and refreshing to read up on technical info which will might be useful sooner or later :)
So with the 182 F4R high boost sub 300 Tutuur is saying use the Megane pistons but having to do away with the VVT, why is this? I know he says the pistons are different but i dont know the reason what effect it then have when using the Meg ones with VVT installed still.
The Megane pistons don't have enough of a valve pocket to clear the cams in the retard position.
andybond
07-01-2014, 15:13
I see nobody has mentioned the price of a decent clutch for the meg when the power is increased £££:laugh:
I can mention it. Mine is getting done.
£1280+vat.
Owch.
andybond
07-01-2014, 15:14
The Megane pistons don't have enough of a valve pocket to clear the cams in the retard position.
Do the 250s ? They have pockets.
andybond
07-01-2014, 15:15
Keep up Mart, we've been there already in this thread :p
A lower compression ratio drops peak cylinder pressure. That might have some bearing on rod failure (no pun intended). Or maybe not that much. :)
:wasntme:
Paul has confirmed that the low end high torque kills the engines. He lost an engine that was 3000mi old running at 360ibft
I am looking into fitting a 250/265 hybrid turbo with injectors so I can avoid the hassle of getting a new manifold to fit a 3071 ?
Anyone after a standard meg turbo ?
Can I take the complete dephaser unit off the 182 cam and replace it with a vernier pulley? Thinking Megane pistons and being different to F4R maybe I could fit vernier pulleys instead. Can this be done? I know Pure Motorsport sell the Piper verniers.
yeah why wouldn't it fit? only have to block of the oil port which powers the dephaser iirc
could also just fit 225 pulleys if timing is the same, or maybe they'll give better timing for boost. everything is possible :P
yeah why wouldn't it fit? only have to block of the oil port which powers the dephaser iirc
could also just fit 225 pulleys if timing is the same, or maybe they'll give better timing for boost. everything is possible :P
I don't know why that's why I'm asking :D
Was thinking vernier pulleys to adjust any timing differences/issues but if the 225s timing is the same (who knows?) then it could be an option.
I spoke to Matt earlier and discussed pistons, I don't like the idea of using forged pistons and IMO would rather use Megane for the reason that it's an everyday car but would still like to go high boost ( The ED 280bhp option)
I need to call Engine Dynamics to discuss
Matt Cole
08-01-2014, 22:28
I will have a spare set of 225 pistons and rods soon;)
yeah why wouldn't it fit? only have to block of the oil port which powers the dephaser iirc
could also just fit 225 pulleys if timing is the same, or maybe they'll give better timing for boost. everything is possible :P
The inlet cam has more offset than the exhaust, so you can't fit verniers from a non-VVT engine.
You can cheat like I did and machine a few mm out the back of an exhaust pulley and use that on the inlet, then if you make yourself a variable cam locking tool you can time them however you like.
There are some VVT verniers in the pipeline, Andy G at Clioturbo sent me some pictures of ones indevelopment recently. :)
You need to fit an exhaust cam seal too. And block the 3x holes in the end of the inlet cam and the hole down the center of the main bolt.
I don't know why that's why I'm asking :D
Was thinking vernier pulleys to adjust any timing differences/issues but if the 225s timing is the same (who knows?) then it could be an option.
I spoke to Matt earlier and discussed pistons, I don't like the idea of using forged pistons and IMO would rather use Megane for the reason that it's an everyday car but would still like to go high boost ( The ED 280bhp option)
I need to call Engine Dynamics to discuss
We need to be a little bit carefull here mate because the mapping takes in to account a lower compression ratio from forged pistons.
My honest advice is to use a standalone for best results, or see Paul about remapping the stock ECU if your keeping an eye on the budget. ED will be happy to sell you the kit without the ECU, that should knock a chunk off which can go toward one or other of the above options :)
andybond
09-01-2014, 09:34
We need to be a little bit carefull here mate because the mapping takes in to account a lower compression ratio from forged pistons.
My honest advice is to use a standalone for best results, or see Paul about remapping the stock ECU if your keeping an eye on the budget. ED will be happy to sell you the kit without the ECU, that should knock a chunk off which can go toward one or other of the above options :)
As long as its remembered that your rods will be in for a hiding if using a small turbo , and lots of torque.
Slammed 66
09-01-2014, 09:40
I can mention it. Mine is getting done.
£1280+vat.
Owch.
Bloody hell Andy :eek:
What are you actually getting for that price?
andybond
09-01-2014, 09:57
Bloody hell Andy :eek:
What are you actually getting for that price?
A gold clutch.
I hope.
No seriously ..
single mass flywheel
uprated clutch cover plate
clutch
slave cylinder
fitting.
Its the helix kit. Its the only really uprated kit there is for the meg. I could go down the r26r route and get 20% more clamping force , but I am already running > 20% torque than a standard r26. I hope to be running more.
A standard DMF / clutch / etc from renault is more than the helix kit , and even other vendors still charge around £600 for parts plus fitting.
I can justify it if I look at it like that.
Its the story of most modern cars. Buying is the cheap bit , running and replacing parts is the expensive bit !
andybond
09-01-2014, 20:41
( sorry Ricardo )
( sorry Ricardo )
Andy, seriously it's making great reading and conversation about the F4R varieties... Anyway, a big development has happened
Andy, seriously it's making great reading and conversation about the F4R varieties... Anyway, a big development has happened
you've bought a diesel???? :laugh:
Matt Cole
09-01-2014, 22:33
Andy, seriously it's making great reading and conversation about the F4R varieties... Anyway, a big development has happened:agree:
It's a good thread. I'm on stripping my engine as we speak, head work, cams, forged internals and hopefully some decent results!:D
andybond
09-01-2014, 23:05
:agree:
It's a good thread. I'm on stripping my engine as we speak, head work, cams, forged internals and hopefully some decent results!:D
Which engine Matt? Getting old so I forget!
Your avatar would suggest a blown f4r ?
Matt Cole
10-01-2014, 00:08
Which engine Matt? Getting old so I forget!
Your avatar would suggest a blown f4r ?
It's a 225 f4rt Andy. The same lump I've had since 2007!:scared: it's going through a few changes and I'm hoping to have it alive for june. :D
andybond
10-01-2014, 00:12
I have been reading how a chap who ran cams on his f4r , small turbo , forged everything and only ran 315hp and 335ftib.
In a nutshell cams were overspecced ( duration all wrong ) and couldnt generate enough boost with the turbo.
A GTX3071 should cure it.
Just trying to say be careful with which turbo you partner it with. I dont know how much you know ( if you get my drift ) so maybe speak to Scoff or Paul.
You changing the box ? o2m seems to be the preferential box.
Matt Cole
10-01-2014, 15:19
I have been reading how a chap who ran cams on his f4r , small turbo , forged everything and only ran 315hp and 335ftib.
In a nutshell cams were overspecced ( duration all wrong ) and couldnt generate enough boost with the turbo.
A GTX3071 should cure it.
Just trying to say be careful with which turbo you partner it with. I dont know how much you know ( if you get my drift ) so maybe speak to Scoff or Paul.
You changing the box ? o2m seems to be the preferential box.
Andy,
Not sure if you remember this thread:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2310
Im using a borg warner and cams timed to suit. Not sure what to yet as I might also invest in some adjustable pulleys.
andybond
10-01-2014, 15:25
Andy,
Not sure if you remember this thread:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2310
Im using a borg warner and cams timed to suit. Not sure what to yet as I might also invest in some adjustable pulleys.
I dont remember what I had for tea last night , apologies.
Ill have a good read over the weekend. Thanks for taking the time to post me a link :agree:
I hear them Borg Warner's can rip limbs from babies?!?
Matt Cole
11-01-2014, 23:12
I hear them Borg Warner's can rip limbs from babies?!?
:laugh: Aye your right I have a limbless baby in the garage!
Noooooooooooooo
Poor little bugger........😛
andybond
12-01-2014, 00:17
Crumbs. Thats a fairly meaty turbo there !
I cant get too much in the way of turbo mods without going down a new manifold route. Thats gets expensive fast.
Heard that Paul is offering a turbo with some larger wheels that are from a meg 250. Already run 360hp / 370ibft on a 250. Should be good for 350 ish with injectors on the meg. Bonus is a direct fit.
Snag is the price ..
Matt Cole
12-01-2014, 09:44
I will be updating my thread shortly with progress (which there has been some :D). Will let Ricardo have his thread back! :laugh:
On the f4rt tuning, main issues are the typical turbo type manufacturers mild cams and the smaller head ports. I was in two minds on wether to swap the head for a 182 or even 197,but me being me I've decided to see what can be done on improving the 225 head. I will be sending the head and inlet to Amac engineering in northallerton. It's an old school outfit and all head work is mainly done by hand and experience.
Andrew Cooke
12-01-2014, 09:48
I might also invest in some adjustable pulleys.
If you do I'd set them so that 0,0 equates to 110, 110. You'd need to set them with the Renault tool at something other than 0,0 to make that work, we can try and work that out when you get them :)
Matt Cole
12-01-2014, 10:31
[QUOTE=Andrew Cooke;361248]If you do I'd set them so that 0,0 equates to 110, 110. You'd need to set them with the Renault tool at something other than 0,0 to make that work, we can try and work that out when you get them :)[/QUOTE
Thanks Andy. Yeah as we discussed a while back looks like I will need to modify the timing tools to set the cams initially to ? And then use adjustable pulleys. Thing is I'm not in a financially position to buy a set of cat cams. I was considering using cosworth pulleys as the diameter and number of teeth are similar and are readily available cheaply. I will no doubt be camped firmily in your messages inbox when I'm ready to put it all together. :D
Any other alternatives on cheap cam pulleys?
Andrew Cooke
12-01-2014, 11:12
[quote=Andrew Cooke;361248]If you do I'd set them so that 0,0 equates to 110, 110. You'd need to set them with the Renault tool at something other than 0,0 to make that work, we can try and work that out when you get them :)[/QUOTE
Thanks Andy. Yeah as we discussed a while back looks like I will need to modify the timing tools to set the cams initially to ? And then use adjustable pulleys. Thing is I'm not in a financially position to buy a set of cat cams. I was considering using cosworth pulleys as the diameter and number of teeth are similar and are readily available cheaply. I will no doubt be camped firmily in your messages inbox when I'm ready to put it all together. :D
Any other alternatives on cheap cam pulleys?
no idea on the pulleys.
No need to do anything funky with the tool. Say the standard cam is timed 116, set the pulley to 6 deg and fit it, then when you adjust to 0deg you'll be at 110. But, with the advance, retard, +/-, cam, and crank degrees there are many more ways to screw it up than get it right :) Check, check again, sleep on it, check it again, repeat :laugh:
andybond
12-01-2014, 11:20
I will be updating my thread shortly with progress (which there has been some :D). Will let Ricardo have his thread back! :laugh:
On the f4rt tuning, main issues are the typical turbo type manufacturers mild cams and the smaller head ports. I was in two minds on wether to swap the head for a 182 or even 197,but me being me I've decided to see what can be done on improving the 225 head. I will be sending the head and inlet to Amac engineering in northallerton. It's an old school outfit and all head work is mainly done by hand and experience.
Don't swap for a 182 head. It has the same volume as a 172/182/f4r. 197 or 200 head only.
There is work that can be done on the head. An aquatintence spent heavily on the head to gain 50bhp
The phase 1 cylinder head from the 172 has bigger ports
Pulleys
http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/details.php?itemid=166
Matt Cole
12-01-2014, 21:13
The phase 1 cylinder head from the 172 has bigger ports
Pulleys
http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/details.php?itemid=166
Cheers Ricardo. Yes your right the ph 1 has bigger ports. I got Ashy to measure his when he was building the engine up.
The pipers are slightly cheaper than the cat cams ones. I like the idea if the dowel to. It's the £230 that doesnt agree with me although I may have to bite the bullet! :cry:
I was tempted to fit a phase 1 head to the 182, then have the inlet manifold ports enlarged to match
andybond
13-01-2014, 06:59
The reason I suggested the 197/200 head is because it can flow more than the 172/182 head and crucially it will lower the compression for Matt.
I have no idea how CR affects as supercharger though!
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