View Full Version : Engine conversion
Alright guys so, I'm a royal petrol head. Pretty good with a spanner. I have decided to go with an engine conversion on the 5. Now my budget is going to be around 2.5 - 3k. Won't be doing all the work myself. I'd like 230+ BHP. I know with both my engine options it's easily achievable.
Volvo b18ft. This is a good choice for me as its cheaper and I have all the advice and help I can get off my mate Haz. He's got infinite knowledge on it.
Clio 172 turbo. Now not got a clue how this exactly works with the high and low compression models. Any one explain?? I beleive that you can run minimal boost with one engine and plenty with the other.
Opinions and advice welcome... Cheers :agree:
take a look at my thread efi c1j
take a look at my thread efi c1j
:agree: The way forward! I would love to have a fully mappable C1J:smokin:
Hello 30psi:laugh:
TrixNFlix
06-09-2012, 23:20
No brainer with haz as your mate, b18ft is the cheapest efi choice out there. No ones realy pushed these engines yet, mark is almost there.
you didnt mention the 172 versions. basically, std 172 engine can cope with 6/7psi, for more boost it'll want low comp pistons or a decompression plate. for more power again it'll want rods etc.
imo the b18ft is the cheapest as already turbo'd so ecu can cope up to 230bhp without touching the internals too much, more and you'll be needing to visit catcams and scoff for the ecu/mapping. i recon the full 'exchange' of your bits to volvo work out so it doesnt cost much at all. efi'ing the c1j could add a furth £1500+ to what you've already spent.
next is the f7r's, similar cost to buy the engine and ancillaries as volvo but price goes up as you will need ex manifold, low com pistons or plate, ecu and mapping just to turbo it, but it will make more power easier/reliable if you want to crack the 300bhp mark.
lastly is the 172, similar sort of work involved as williams/valver lumps, ecu etc but everything just costs more in the first place, and there's less off the shelf bits, but should make around 300bhp as a low boost conversion but will offer the most reliable power above that.
general rule of thumb is to see what power the engine makes na, just under double it for 1bar of boost, just under treble it for 2bar. volvo makes about 90, valver makes about 135, 172 makes, at a guess, 172 lol. if you want that bit more again the the 197 head should add about 50hp at 2 bar.
suppose it just depends on what you want as the final result as to which to start with, along with budget and sourcing parts
No brainer with haz as your mate, b18ft is the cheapest efi choice out there. No ones realy pushed these engines yet, mark is almost there.
230bhp seems to be very cost effective. the std ecu is the problem when it comes to revving higher, and the cam for flowing better, its just whether its worth the extra £1400?? for what i feel at best 300bhp. thats getting into f7r costs then ;)
steer from the rear
07-09-2012, 07:48
ive a f7r :yeah:
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk55/steer_from_the_rear1985/th_63A7F08A-EE15-4A28-AA26-11D4B7B193D1-186-00000008D3D7D01A.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk55/steer_from_the_rear1985/?action=view¤t=63A7F08A-EE15-4A28-AA26-11D4B7B193D1-186-00000008D3D7D01A.jpg)
that dint cost £3000 but it depends how well you can fabricate :coffee:
Think I'm going Volvo excited!
F7R ftw, ok it'd cost more to start but it'll make more power, more reliabley than an Volvo engine with scope for a lot more later on.
TrixNFlix
07-09-2012, 10:13
Think I'm going Volvo excited!
I think you've made a good choice with your budget, and with haz's expertise. :):agree:
Im happy with the b18 and just a baby t2, next to no lag and it is faster than civic type r and even the odd scoob.
Nottswoody
07-09-2012, 11:44
Think I'm going Volvo excited!
josh i will follow this closely as im still thing off doing this too
No worries mate I'll do a full shabang thread. Going to be getting lots of goodies including better cam, waste gate screamer pipe setup with custom manifolds and downpipe. Looking to go standalone ecu.
Haz is going to kill me, but... ;)
Volvo is the cheapest route, no questions. So if budget is everything, go volvo.
But 230hp is still the upper limit of those engines to date. Lee wadmore (waddy on here) recently had a cylinder head done with a custom cam, initial results were promising but valve bounce or some other oddity is happening at 6000rpm. So we're stuck with NA cams until the problem can be resolved there. The volvo engine takes 20+ psi to make 230hp.
The 172 however :D Will do the same power with 7psi and be under a lot less strain. That's a bone stock engine with standard compression. The downsides here are cost - engine management, engine itself and consider the bulge you have to put in the bonnet to fit it in.
F7P or F7R gets my vote for a budget build. Isn't coops selling a complete setup, ECU and all for 2k ? Or build your own with standalone for maybe 2.5k. :)
Yes he is mate. My thoughts were to buy bit by bit so it's doesn't woop me on the cash side of things. Really Just thought with Haz helping me almost down to the tee that it's a sensible option.
172 Gets my vote if your hell bent on an engine conversion. It really is strides ahead of the c1j and the Volvo lump.
I may get shot down for saying this but if it was me with 3k to spend, I would stick with your lump.
T28 £800 (top line price)
Carb rebuild £30
ajustable or rising rate fpr £60
Gaz coilovers £550
Set of r888's £400
Mappable ignition £700 (I think??)
AP paddle plate £240
full set of service items £120
Bobs your uncle and fannys your aunt 230hp and a well sorted gtt to boot;)
Alistair Gresty
07-09-2012, 13:46
Why not buy this
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4202735.htm
Take the engine out for yours, put your c1j in this car & sell it on.
Hay presto you've got your engine conversion for free!!
This was up for sale a while back mate. Got a suspected rattle...
172 Gets my vote if your hell bent on an engine conversion. It really is strides ahead of the c1j and the Volvo lump.
I may get shot down for saying this but if it was me with 3k to spend, I would stick with your lump.
T28 £800 (top line price)
Carb rebuild £30
ajustable or rising rate fpr £60
Gaz coilovers £550
Set of r888's £400
Mappable ignition £700 (I think??)
AP paddle plate £240
full set of service items £120
Bobs your uncle and fannys your aunt 230hp and a well sorted gtt to boot;)
Your a c1j addict bro!
Nottswoody
07-09-2012, 13:57
Why not buy this
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4202735.htm
Take the engine out for yours, put your c1j in this car & sell it on.
Hay presto you've got your engine conversion for free!!
I'm sure a member went to veer this and he said it was knackerd.. The engine had been in a rolled car and must of been oil starved.. But you could always rebuild it?
Not worth my time of the cars rusty etc mate.
No worries mate I'll do a full shabang thread. Going to be getting lots of goodies including better cam, waste gate screamer pipe setup with custom manifolds and downpipe. Looking to go standalone ecu.
If your doing all this then may as well go f7r as thàts most of the cost difference between conversions
This was up for sale a while back mate. Got a suspected rattle...
It was more than a rattle. The engine come out of Finch's car on here when he fliped his 5 and running upside down. Bottom end was knocking like a gooden. I got offered it for less than what he is asking now and still walked away.
Markey Mark (BD)
07-09-2012, 15:13
F7R ftw, ok it'd cost more to start but it'll make more power, more reliabley than an Volvo engine with scope for a lot more later on.
Why is the F7R/P more reliable than the Volvo B1BFT? Considering they are based on the same block they then both inherrite the same flaws if they have some. Heads are obviously different but no issues there too
In my opninion there both as bullet proof as each other, as for tuning scope thats yet to be decided with the Volvo ;)
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
f7r ftw
steer from the rear
08-09-2012, 08:35
We will see what a standard f7r makes with a t34 next weekend as I've just mot'ed my car and I've some new 630cc siemens deka's to go in at scoffs which he can then map but as regards to my engine it's completely standard only internal modification is the pistons have been machined to lower the c/r
Now I'm taking this engine to limit which I thinks is about 20p.s.i and 8000rpm but I'm crapping myself as regards to con rod bolts and what the pistons will take :sad2:
Why is the F7R/P more reliable than the Volvo B1BFT? Considering they are based on the same block they then both inherrite the same flaws if they have some. Heads are obviously different but no issues there too
In my opninion there both as bullet proof as each other, as for tuning scope thats yet to be decided with the Volvo ;)
Because its so much easier to get the power out of a f7p/r than a b18ft so you don't need to push it as hard.
As already mentioned, to get 230bhp from either engine is relatively simple but when you start wanting more and you will the Volvo lump because more and more difficult to extract the power and you have to push it harder and harder to do so, this can only lead to reduced reliability.
I'm not denying the Volvo is good engine but for all the exspense of building one you can get more out of an F7p/r with scope for a lot more
We will see what a standard f7r makes with a t34 next weekend as I've just mot'ed my car and I've some new 630cc siemens deka's to go in at scoffs which he can then map but as regards to my engine it's completely standard only internal modification is the pistons have been machined to lower the c/r
Now I'm taking this engine to limit which I thinks is about 20p.s.i and 8000rpm but I'm crapping myself as regards to con rod bolts and what the pistons will take :sad2:
8000rpm, that a good idea without springs?
Markey Mark (BD)
08-09-2012, 19:36
Because its so much easier to get the power out of a f7p/r than a b18ft so you don't need to push it as hard.
As already mentioned, to get 230bhp from either engine is relatively simple but when you start wanting more and you will the Volvo lump because more and more difficult to extract the power and you have to push it harder and harder to do so, this can only lead to reduced reliability.
I'm not denying the Volvo is good engine but for all the exspense of building one you can get more out of an F7p/r with scope for a lot more
Totally agree with what your saying mate, getting power from the F7P/R is alot easier and to get the same from the Volvo would need more development but for me thats the fun of it, having an engine which no one expects to develop the power actually producing the numbers! :D;)
As a reliability issue i think there both the same i think its more a limitation issue which the way the engines are designed, being 8v the Volvo is always going to have disadvantage.
Working on the Volvo though is dame site easier though! :laugh:;)
andybond
08-09-2012, 19:53
We will see what a standard f7r makes with a t34 next weekend as I've just mot'ed my car and I've some new 630cc siemens deka's to go in at scoffs which he can then map but as regards to my engine it's completely standard only internal modification is the pistons have been machined to lower the c/r
Now I'm taking this engine to limit which I thinks is about 20p.s.i and 8000rpm but I'm crapping myself as regards to con rod bolts and what the pistons will take :sad2:
Mr From the Rears rods after the mapping
http://mamcosyrup.com/images/bananas.jpg
dangerous dave
08-09-2012, 20:03
I'm gonna fit a 1.5 dci lump and get me 60+ mpg
BILLY-R5GTT
08-09-2012, 20:26
ive a f7r :yeah:
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk55/steer_from_the_rear1985/th_63A7F08A-EE15-4A28-AA26-11D4B7B193D1-186-00000008D3D7D01A.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk55/steer_from_the_rear1985/?action=view¤t=63A7F08A-EE15-4A28-AA26-11D4B7B193D1-186-00000008D3D7D01A.jpg)
that dint cost £3000 but it depends how well you can fabricate :coffee:
I like where the turbo is on that rather than tucked away down the back :agree:
turbo ted
08-09-2012, 20:52
8000rpm, that a good idea without springs?
on standard cams it will be fine keep the revs up:D
Still in no mans land what route to go down. Just waiting on a couple of things
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 21:08
With these conversions, are they purely for dragstrip/traffic light fun/bragging figures? i cant understand how you can get the power down without spinning the wheels? especially on track? LSD must be a necessity?(for track use)
I would have thought a 230hp f4r track car would be a hoot to drive, :smokin: with some well thought out suspension changes especially
No doubt LSD would make it better but by no means an essential ;)
With these conversions, are they purely for dragstrip/traffic light fun/bragging figures? i cant understand how you can get the power down without spinning the wheels? especially on track? LSD must be a necessity?(for track use)
I only go fast in a straight line pal. Think tracks are bad news for the pesky old Renault.
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 21:16
lol Straight lines are fun, i like some twisty stuff too. I geuss straight lines are much more fun at 300bhp plus
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 21:18
Do you guys get much traction 1/2/3rd gears?
I only go fast in a straight line pal. Think tracks are bad news for the pesky old Renault.
He even thinks like his big bro:wasntme:
What is the most tourq a jc5 box can take reliably?
Slammed 66
08-09-2012, 21:41
For what it's worth, I'm a recent convert to the b18ft. I bought my van from Markey mark last month and have put 1,000 trouble free miles on it as a daily driver. The engine is very easy to live with for round town commuting and a blast on the twisty bits.
Don't get me wrong, I do still love a c1j and think they are amazing given that they're just a 1400, pushrod, carb motor but the Volvo motor is also quite excellent straight out of the box.
Try to blag a go in people's cars as a passenger who have different engine conversions and see what you think for yourself.
Ross
Do you guys get much traction 1/2/3rd gears?
With slicks yeah. On road tyres at pod it's abit crap. But what can you do...
Markey Mark (BD)
08-09-2012, 21:44
What is the most tourq a jc5 box can take reliably?
I think if you pushing well over the 300ft lb of torque a standard JC5 box won't last, Turbo Teds JC5 i had built for him lasted a good year a half although it did finally end its life recently due to the power and torque that car is putting out now but before then held well
How long it last will come down to driver too
For what it's worth, I'm a recent convert to the b18ft. I bought my van from Markey mark last month and have put 1,000 trouble free miles on it as a daily driver. The engine is very easy to live with for round town commuting and a blast on the twisty bits.
Don't get me wrong, I do still love a c1j and think they are amazing given that they're just a 1400, pushrod, carb motor but the Volvo motor is also quite excellent straight out of the box.
Try to blag a go in people's cars as a passenger who have different engine conversions and see what you think for yourself.
Ross
That's not a bad shout. Been in a Volvo conversion before (Haz's) from what I remember it was pretty rapid :eek:. Not been in a boosted 172 lump or a valver lump either. Have seen coops run and thought wowsers that's fun!
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 21:55
yeah i c the point in the power for santa pod drag runs but road surfaces are pretty naff im just wondering really with these conversions how much traction is really available? (day to day or on track?) even meganes struggle 1st,2nd with 225/235 tyres and alot more weight over the front wheels.(without traction control)
BILLY-R5GTT
08-09-2012, 21:59
If you were to go for a 172 engine then turbo it do you have to go standalone ecu?
Or would it be easier going megane 225/230 then standlone ecu etc... then you don't have to mess about lowering compression. The only reason I am asking is I would like to do this to my 19 16v cab or maybe even the 5 at somepoint
I don't mind the mechanical stuff it's the wiring that i'm not fond of.
I'm not a fan of the b18ft at all.
On the road I can't do full throttle launches. I have to feather the throttle in 1st then generally it grips in 2nd. But my car is only 180bhp at the minute. Our kids 5 spins in 4th on the motorway if he drops a gear straight into boost. But generally if your good at driving a good launch is achievable!!
If you were to go for a 172 engine then turbo it do you have to go standalone ecu?
Or would it be easier going megane 225/230 then standlone ecu etc... then you don't have to mess about lowering compression. The only reason I am asking is I would like to do this to my 19 16v cab or maybe even the 5 at somepoint
I don't mind the mechanical stuff it's the wiring that i'm not fond of.
I'm not a fan of the b18ft at all.
I'm exactly the same billy. Wiring, ecus I don't know anything about. I'm pretty sure the standalone for the 172 is the option that has to be taken. Adaptronic FTW! I don't know anything about the megane gear either...
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 22:05
so can he get full throttle in 3rd?
C1J FTW :)
Keep it real, keep it original :agree:
so can he get full throttle in 3rd?
Yes but only if he goes through the rev range so to speak. But still some spin as the t28 comes in. Harsh kick of the boost :wasntme:
Full throttle on the road in third is hard work:smokin:
In some of these 400hp valver lumps surely only fifth has decent traction on the road.;)
turbo ted
08-09-2012, 22:45
I think if you pushing well over the 300ft lb of torque a standard JC5 box won't last, Turbo Teds JC5 i had built for him lasted a good year a half although it did finally end its life recently due to the power and torque that car is putting out now but before then held well
How long it last will come down to driver too
this is what happened to my jc5 with 360ft lb of torque with a lsd pics below
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 22:50
Thats good news then? the box is still intact?
That is one minced box/shaft
Was that at pod last weekend?
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 22:56
Geusing you can just swap the diff then is it an LSD?
turbo ted
08-09-2012, 23:07
that box is finished its snapped the spline shaft off the lsd:cry: and destroyed the passenger driveshaft theres nothing else i can do to make it stronger time for vag box conversion.
damage was done at pod last week when i launched:crap:
Tony Walker
08-09-2012, 23:14
yeah i heard the vid, the lsd worked well, snapped one locked snaped the other lol
that box is finished its snapped the spline shaft off the lsd:cry: and destroyed the passenger driveshaft theres nothing else i can do to make it stronger time for vag box conversion.
damage was done at pod last week when i launched:crap:
oouuchhh!!:crap:
welcome to the 02m 6 speed club;), just out of interest how many outer hub splines have you mashed :scared::ashamed:
turbo ted
09-09-2012, 10:28
oouuchhh!!:crap:
welcome to the 02m 6 speed club;), just out of interest how many outer hub splines have you mashed :scared::ashamed:
outer hub splines none this year as i done the 172/182 hub conversion,if your still using 5 hubs and the ends of 5 driveshafts they will snap clean off.
How times have moved on! Driveshafts used to be almost indestructible!:wasntme:
That's ****in nuts teddy. Deary me.
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