View Full Version : Still Not Idling
Try a different idle jet, one with the original hard plastic seal in good nick.
Well that is strange. Does the engine rev clean? or does it mis-fire. Is the bakolite spacer between the carb gaskets ok, these can crack sometimes.
thinking outside the box.
if you get the distributor timing slightly out then it can run like a pig, all spluttery, but rev OK.
why not mod the dizzy to manual adjustment so you can get it spot on because even the factory settings are not that close!
1) remove 11mm bolt and 'Y' clamp from base of dizzy
2) spin whole dizzy 180deg
3) re-fit 11mm bolt and 'Y' clamp finger tight, so that the dizzy is now adjustable
4) spin your ht leads around so they are correct again (180deg)
5) fire it up and with gloves or a rag adjust the dizzy left and right to see if you can improve the running. you'll find it'll get rough at the 2 'outer' most settings and it'll have a sweet spot in the middle
6) tighten up the 11mm bolt and leave it be!
note: you use gloves or a rag to try and prevent a shock.
Rob@Backyardracing
10-12-2008, 18:38
Do you have a timing light? What camshaft do you have fitted etc? Are you sure you fitted your dizi drive gear ok and not off to one side? try taking the clamp of the dizzi unit and slowly rotate both ways and see if the car will idle better or try to...
Rob@Backyardracing
10-12-2008, 18:41
blah you scoff...lol.... do what he posted, makes alot more sense than mine but same thing...:)
ha! scuppered you rob, sorry mate :cool:
raj, yes sometimes. just depends how it lands and how well timed up your cam is.
normally I get someone to hold the car at 2k while I nudge the dizzy left and right, you hear it start to cough when your on the edge of the 'contact' so to speak. find the center and lock it off. if you try do it at idle (not that you can!) then often the car will just keep stalling when you try to do this.
Rob@Backyardracing
10-12-2008, 18:53
Pic here of how i have my dizi drive fitted and the way scoff also said just to help you get idea
http://s331.photobucket.com/albums/l463/BackyardRacing_2008/?action=view¤t=DSCF0226.jpg
Is the mixture screw in too far. Maybe wind it out a few turns and see if the car runs. Just an idea.
ive already done that, thanks for not reading the list in my 1st post :p
My bad.:ashamed:
is the breather system all ok? i noticed you say uve modified it, my car wouldnt idle when i fitted sfs silicone breather hoses, changed them back and hey presto?:cool:
MR TURBO
11-12-2008, 18:41
is the breather system all ok? i noticed you say uve modified it, my car wouldnt idle when i fitted sfs silicone breather hoses, changed them back and hey presto?:cool:
STRANGE!!!!!!!!!!:confused::confused:
STRANGE!!!!!!!!!!:confused::confused:
I dunno if they were poorly made? bad batch or something but they were all visible bigger than the oe ones and the restrictors were too small etc...... got them off ebay so that will teach me.
MR TURBO
11-12-2008, 18:54
I dunno if they were poorly made? bad batch or something but they were all visible bigger than the oe ones and the restrictors were too small etc...... got them off ebay so that will teach me.
Hopefully our group buy batch should not have these problems touch wood as they are from ebay or a ebay seller:innocent::innocent:
yes correct,i have modded the breather system.
ive basically simplified it.....
what ive done is-
got rid of 1 of the oneway valves on the inlet manifold and blanked it off .
removed hose that runs to the inlet manifold.
removed hose that runs to the airfilter pipe
removed hose that runs to the breather pot
removed breather pot.
so the new set up is - hose connected to the hard pipe that comes up from the sump, then routed to the rocker cover, from rocker it is tee'd off and routed to the catch tank.
how would this cause the car not to idle? im sure there are lots of folks with this mod:confused:
did you remove any of the hoses with the restrictors inside? if its not too laborious perhaps try reverting breather system back to oe, as long as you didnt bin anything of course. Ive had countless problems with me messing around with the breather system, all resulted in ythe car not idleing. i dont know enough to describe why it wont run properly, im sure one of the other guys can answer?:agree:
Hopefully our group buy batch should not have these problems touch wood as they are from ebay or a ebay seller:innocent::innocent:
if its hose solutions they will be all good.
You have one hell of a strange fault there raj!! You can rule out a electrical fault i think. sounds fueling issue but what. The only other thing i can think of is a blocked exhaust. does it sputter then die or just like turning the key off die?
i cant be a blocked exhaust as ive not fitted it yet.
as soon as i let go of the revs it just dies.
also from quote #20
im assuming that the haynes manual is saying that no#1 piston is closest the flywheel :confused: whereas i was using the piston closest the waterpump as no#1. but regardless of this the dizzy drive is pointing correctly to 12oclock when no#1 piston [waterpump end]is at the top of its comp stroke.
a friggin annoying problem:brickwall:
So im assuming u have stripped the engine, fitted a cam, rebuilt it and it wont idle?
You may have been asked this before' not read the old thread.
Have you compression tested it?
Are the valve clearances correct?
Did it run ok before the engine was stripped or whatever u have done to it?
So im assuming u have stripped the engine, fitted a cam, rebuilt it and it wont idle?
You may have been asked this before' not read the old thread.
ok just read old thread. up to speed
Have you compression tested it? Not read anything about compression test?
Are the valve clearances correct? Forget that then!!
Did it run ok before the engine was stripped or whatever u have done to it?
mmmmmmmmmmm????
ive not done a comp test.
Definately the next thing to do :)
mmmmmmmmmmm????
I think you need to go and compression test it. 7.9/1 is roughly 120 psi on the gauge. back to basics!!! :)
If you dont sort it i might have time over xmas to pop up and give you hand.
I think you need to go and compression test it. 7.9/1 is roughly 120 psi on the gauge. back to basics!!! :)
If you dont sort it i might have time over xmas to pop up and give you hand.
If you dont sort it i might have time over xmas to pop up and give you A hand.[/quote] :D spot the difference!! Big error there!
If you dont sort it i might have time over xmas to pop up and give you hand.
Thats the Christmas spirit ! :wasntme:
:D spot the difference!! Big error there!
:laugh: which ever mate, ill appreciate both:D
will any old comp tester do? might buy this ebay special (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PETROL-ENGINE-AUTOMOTIVE-COMPRESSION-TESTER-TOOL-GAUGE_W0QQitemZ110323044231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_H and_Tools_Equipment?hash=item110323044231&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4%7C65%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318) . are they not supposed to have a reset button on them:confused:
ive never done a comp test before:scared:[/quote]
Yea they are!! it will be on the metal block below the gauge part. Looks good for that price and should do the job nicely.
compression has nothing much to do with compression ratio raj :)
i would do the compression check,
then start spraying around places with carb cleaner to see if the revs pick up and locate ur leak. id concentrate on the inlet manifold area....
jantheeven
12-12-2008, 00:16
just wondering,
could someone thats good at calculations "jantheeven:innocent:" work out what my comp ratio is? and then work out what psi i should be seeing on a comp tester?
the only thing i can tell you is that ive has the crowns skimmed off the pistons and also 9thou skimmed off the cylinder head.
im not sure if that enough info but thats all i have.
Don't push it mate :laugh:
I'm not THAT good at calculations... ;)
Try this one yourself:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
Hope you have all the data this tool requires...
tiff_lee
12-12-2008, 00:26
i would do the compression check,
then start spraying around places with carb cleaner to see if the revs pick up and locate ur leak. id concentrate on the inlet manifold area....
That's what I was thinking vacuum leak of some kind.
Not too sure about 5's but my old mini turbo idle'd like crap when one of the little vacuum pipes was drawing air through even though it 'appeared' to be blocked off.
im now thinkin that you have got the cam slightly out and that the engine isnt producing much vacuum at idle, which would mean the carb isnt able to dribble fuel into the engine. a comp check should show this.
also, check your tappets are done to the manufacturers recommendation....;)
Matt Cole
12-12-2008, 13:10
im now thinkin that you have got the cam slightly out and that the engine isnt producing much vacuum at idle, which would mean the carb isnt able to dribble fuel into the engine. a comp check should show this.
also, check your tappets are done to the manufacturers recommendation....;)
:agree: Could be just that if the timing is out too as i had that prob on the 225 lump. Get a gauge with vac reference set up and see what its pulling!
Alastair
12-12-2008, 16:00
think i can rule out the timing being out.
as you can see by the picture the timing marks line up ok.
[note that i HAVENT lined the pulleys up 100% for when i took the picture, so if you can imagine just twisting the cam pulley just slightly to the right, the marks on the pulleys will then line up 100%]
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/R5_GTT/r52-1.jpg
It looks to me as if your cam pulley is 180 degrees out in that pic? Both marks on the sprockets should point towards each other if i remember correctly...
Alastair
12-12-2008, 16:17
i think your forgetting that 1 pulley basically double the size of the other! if i was to turn the crank pulley another 360deg"i think" then they would line up as you say.
i think the crank pulley does 2 turns with every 1 turn of the cam pulley!
Agree but dont forget that if you remove the chain you can then spin the cam 180, and change exhaust stroke for compression....
who is to say the cam has been ground accurately? get the dti gauge on the cam...
The cam being 180deg' out won't be helping matters. What's to say there hasn't been any valve to piston contact?
You really need to carry out a comp' test, but before that, I'd take the chain off and swing the cam around.
Don't forget that if the cam is out, the dizzy gear (and hence rotor arm position) will also be out.
At least get a known base to work from before starting the process of elimination...
i dont understand why i have to swing the cam around:confused: i can do the same thing by just turning the crank pulley until both timing marks are next to each other.
Aii, but not if the crank/pistons are then @ bdc.
Hold on, I'm confusing myself :D
how did you get on with compression testing raj ? maybe your still waiting on the gauge sorry, getting curious.
if the compression is ok then the engine is ok to idle, pretty much. so then the fault will be a lack of fuel or no ignition.
If there's no ignition it'll probably want to pop and bang out the exhaust, I guess it isn't doing that, and I'm assuming that when you say you have a spark that you've checked the for the spark at cranking speeds, not 2k+ rpm.
so, pending a compression test showing something wrong the problem is one of fuel.
by chance you havn't had the head and/or inlet manifold ports smoothed or polished ?
another question, when it starts to run rough sub 2krpm does it sound like it's dropping onto 3 or 2 cylinders or just struggling for fuel ?
If it sounds like it's just leaning off then you could drill out a spare idle jet to 0.5mm (or 0.6mm!), it'll fecking idle then, it might at least let you see that the engine is OK, may even help you find an airleak if its running ;)
Andrew Cooke
12-12-2008, 19:22
:scratch: now youve gone and confused me more saying youve confused yourself which in turn is making me think why your confused:confused: :sad:
in Mart's case it's old age:mart:
tiff_lee
12-12-2008, 22:31
i dont understand why i have to swing the cam around:confused: i can do the same thing by just turning the crank pulley until both timing marks are next to each other.
I think what Mart was getting at is that even though when you rotate the crankshaft you can align the cam and crank it is still possible to do that if the cam is out by 180.
As i'm sure you aware (not trying to teach you to suck eggs I believe the phrase is) for one rotation of the crank you get two rotations of the camshaft therefore regardless of whether your cam is timed in at TDC or BDC when rotating the crank the timing marks will still line up.
Not sure how accurate the cam marks are on 5's but I remember when I fitted a cam in my mini (which was also chain driven cam) I had to use offset woodruff keys to get spot on timing as adjusting the timing by one tooth on the sprocket was too large a jump.
I think what Mart was getting at is that even though when you rotate the crankshaft you can align the cam and crank it is still possible to do that if the cam is out by 180.
As i'm sure you aware (not trying to teach you to suck eggs I believe the phrase is) for one rotation of the crank you get two rotations of the camshaft therefore regardless of whether your cam is timed in at TDC or BDC when rotating the crank the timing marks will still line up.
Not sure how accurate the cam marks are on 5's but I remember when I fitted a cam in my mini (which was also chain driven cam) I had to use offset woodruff keys to get spot on timing as adjusting the timing by one tooth on the sprocket was too large a jump.
not so I'm afraid. for each turn of the crank you get only half a turn on the camshaft :)
raj, its right as it is, don't worry :)
tiff_lee
12-12-2008, 23:02
not so I'm afraid. for each turn of the crank you get only half a turn on the camshaft :)
Of course you do the crank is the small pulley and its 2:1 crank:cam doh
damn I feel stupid now
Of course you do the crank is the small pulley and its 2:1 crank:cam doh
damn I feel stupid now
nah, figured it was a typo :)
it's all good, you've done it right :)
olidaviesuk
13-12-2008, 00:16
sounds like you've done the cam timing right, to double check use a dial gauge to ensure that tdc is in line between the gogs.. and the no1 valve lift is correct, should be a certain no of deg off tdc dept on your cam.... don't think this is gonna be the problem though.
providing that your ign system is all okay, have you checked fuelling - not the carb as you seem to have checked that ok, but fpr and fuel pump? and or vac. leaks, to me feels like a vac leak on one of the hoses around the carb? should run ok with all big boost hoses (main ones running to ic etc) disconnected - running the cup setup on mine so might not be the same on a standard 5? but still should idle ok with big hose running to ic disconnected. if all okay then have to look at more serious causes, leakdown test/compressions, etc..... :cry:
ooookay... :crap: :D
try the big old idle jet though, if you can force it to idle it might help you find the leak, which is still the most likely cause I think.
Your plugs are sooty, so you've not got an apparent fuel problem...Just too much has enetered the chamber. But they're damp?.... Petrol evaporates pretty quickly...
Your plugs are sooty, so you've not got an apparent fuel problem...Just too much has enetered the chamber. But they're damp?.... Petrol evaporates pretty quickly...
sooty plugs could mean its rich above 2krpm, that doesn't mean its too rich below 2krpm where it isn't running.
yeah, thats more likely, which as you say shows that there is atleast some fuel there.
raj not usually. 0.4x mm is standard, group A too. try 0.5mm. if the problem gets better than you know its a lack of fuel. if it gets worse then maybe its actually flooding like adam says.
It may be unlikely to fix the problem, but have you tried heating the plugs before firing the engine? Just to get them up to an ideal temp.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
hang on, have i got the wrong size idle jet fitted.? the one i have in at the mo has 25 stamped on it?
also what do these numbers represent?
errr ??
most are 0.44mm, I don't know about numbers being stamped, normally the size is stamped on it.
measure it if you can. doesn't explain why the other carb you tried didn't work, unless you are just pretty unlucky. occums razor usually wins in aparantly wierd situations like this ;)
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
with an 0.4mm drill! I just checked, it should be 0.45mm, R11 turbo was 0.44mm.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
45 sounds more like it. 0.5mm should be enough to make pretty much anything idle, minor vac leaks included. I've had to go to 0.5mm on some cars that had worn spindle seals to get them to idle properly. not ideal, obviously.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
you not got an old jet you can butcher just for a test ? you not got an 0.5mm drill ?
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
a spare idle jet then try it. if the problem gets better, or is solved then you probably have an air leak, so check those green seals, etc. if the problem gets worse then it's flooding.
ive just tried the above out today.
i had my bro hold the revs at 2k while i slowly twited the dizzy drive, and just as scoff described it started to run ruff if i went too far left or right.
when i was happy with the way it was revving i clamped the drive down.
my bro then let go of the revs and the car died.
i went to restart the car and.................
:sad::sad::brickwall::scratch:
its still EXACTLY the same:cry: - still taking time to fire up and when it does it refuses to idle.
also while i was at it a double checked that the dizzy toothed gear was fitted correctly -
[when i say no#1 piston,i mean the waterpump side]
on its compression stroke,when no#1 piston is at 0deg tdc the toothed gear is just very slightly past the 12/6 o clock postion.
if i want the toothed gear to sit perfectly at the 12/6 o clock postion i have to turn the mark on the flywheel sits at 8deg before tdc.
ive also noticed that although the rotor arm is pointing to no#1 ingition lead, the larger offset of the toothed gear is on the left hand side.
the haynes manual states - you must fit the toothed gear so the larger offset is on the right hand side when no#1 piston is @tdc.
but even though my toothed gear is fitted the opposite way round the rotor arm is still pointing to the correct piston ie, no#1 piston @ the 12 o clock position on the comp stroke.
if i was to spin the toothed gear around it would point to no#4 piston but not on its comp stroke.
am i confusing myself here as i crap when i cant understand something fully:confused: :scratch:
you need to check this part again.
just follow the steps EXACTLY.
- flywheel tdc mark on gearbox showing at 0deg on gearbox case marking.
- pistons 1 and 4 at the top of the stroke.
- the cam and crank marking MUST FACE EACH OTHER.
- then put the dizzy drive in with the fat side on the passenger side!
- fit the dizzy, make sure the rotor arm faces away from the block, towards the rad!!!
i reckon you have the cam and dizzy drive out of sync....by about 180deg
in Mart's case it's old age:mart:
True :D
Soz, I was confusing the issue. What I meant is that you need to make sure No.1 piston is at (power stroke) tdc, then line the cam sprocket up to the pulley (marks pointing towards each other), insert the dizzy gear, making sure that when it's fitted the rotor arm is pointing towards No.1 contact (nearest the radiator) on the dizzy cap.
I'm sure I measured what would happen if the dizzy gear was fitted the opposite way (ie, rotor arm pointing towards the rocker cover) and it wasn't a true 180deg' out.
You'll kick yaself if it was lol
Good luck, let us know how ya get on
Ive been reading this thread like its a soap opera! lol I find myself checking every ten minutes to see whats happening! haha I feel like Im going to get emotional when the engines running like its the climax to some tv series!
Good luck tomorrow with the new seals.
:sos:
Where did you get the piper 260 cam from raj?? Does seem like you have covered everything else. (apart from compression?) Is it a proper piper or a ktec
Andrew Cooke
13-12-2008, 21:39
doh! just noticed that there a cam comparion chart type thing now:ashamed:
:innocent:
MR TURBO
14-12-2008, 12:21
right, just put the carb back together,
i found that when i removed the green seals and compared them to the new ones the bore/inside diameter looked bigger in the old ones! which to me would suggest that the seal lip has worn away on the old ones.
so new ones are now in place, and so its on to refitting everything tommorow.
im really hoping the cause of not idling was these green seals!!
fingers crossed:sos:
Anybody heard from Raj yet?? I wonder how it's coming along for him!!!!!
hahaha oh man. This is when we get the trailer for what happens on season two! It always ends with a cliff hanger.
Hopefully with a charged battery its a win.
Ill make sure to tune in.
Same bat time. Same bat channel.
tiff_lee
14-12-2008, 19:39
Yes a typical soap opera, when someone else's misfortune becomes your own entertainment.
Good luck!
Yes a typical soap opera, when someone else's misfortune becomes your own entertainment.
Come on that aint fair, I didnt mean it like that! Im interested in the thread as an educational exercise. Im still quite new to engine work and this is a really good way for me to learn troubleshooting methods.
I am getting no entertainment out of Raj's misfortune! :ashamed:
lol, Im hoping he wasnt seriously taking a dig at me anyway.
Thanks though, Im glad you knew what I meant. Sometimes messages can be read in a different tone from the way its intended.
Best of luck tomorrow with the charged battery. :agree:
tiff_lee
14-12-2008, 23:05
lol wtf I was hardly being serious obviously you didnt see I was merely 'jesting', sorry next time i'll include some smileys of the sort
tiff_lee
14-12-2008, 23:45
Come on that aint fair, I didnt mean it like that! Im interested in the thread as an educational exercise. Im still quite new to engine work and this is a really good way for me to learn troubleshooting methods.
I am getting no entertainment out of Raj's misfortune! :ashamed:
No sorry mate didn't mean it like that at all and after reading back what I wrote it does sound a little on the serious side which is by no way what I intended.
I totally agree this is a learning experience for everyone after all if it wasn't someone would of have posted the solution by now and it would all be sorted, I too like yourself are watching it to see the outcome, be it the cause of the problem and the action required to fix it.
My soap opera analogy would of been better had I said you always keep tuning in to see what happens next, or something along those lines pretty which is pretty much what you said Mike!
hahaha no worries mate, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I didnt think it was a serious comment I just wanted to make sure eh. Everyone so far seems really sound and helpful on RTOC so I wasnt expected it to be anything.
Like I said, comments can be a b4stard some times cause they are read with a different tone in yer own head lol! Thank feck for these daft smilie things huh! :laugh:
Still Im dying to know what gonna happen tomorrow. This thread has covered almost every possiblility for the enigne cutting out a low revs...I now know where to look if Im ever haven a similar problem! :agree:
Hurry up Raj!! :coffee: lol
tiff_lee
15-12-2008, 01:00
Yeah there is no way I paid to be a member of this club to upset people! if anything I paid to tap into their knowledge lol
Sometimes it is rather hard to convey sarcasm in text something I have no trouble with in person!
MR TURBO
15-12-2008, 01:35
I really hope it all works out for Raj 2m fingers crossed for him:sos::sos::niceone:
:coffee:...."time to give up"? :scratch:.....that does not sound like the raj i have got to know? ......keep going mate, you will sort it eventually......:smokin::D
Raj,
Can you get it to 'idle' if you hold it on a bit of throttle? If so, is it smooth, or does it sound lumpy, all over the place, popping, etc.
Does it fire up straight away, or does it require a (fair) bit of cranking?
Soz if you mentioned all this before.
Have you carried a comp' test yet?
Ok mate.
Really need to carry out that comp' test, as it might reveal all.
In the meantime...
Have you measured fuel pressure at the carb inlet?
If you rev it right up, and let go of the throttle (so it closes on its own), does it pop/back-fire whilst the engine is decelerating?
Long shot, but someone hasn't put water/sugar/cr8p in your fuel-tank for an (un)funny laugh? Have you tried draining the float chamber, and pouring fresh fuel straight in, and then try starting it?
Feck man, if you were closer I'd drive over & have a sniff. There's only so many things it can be! Surely there's another rtoc'er close to you who can give it the once over? Who's the Nottingham area rep' these days?
Stating the obvious, but you are using a bit of choke to help keep it idling (when cold)?
ive not used the choke.
!!
Yeah, but the whole point of a choke is exactly that - To keep the throttle slightly open more, thus letting the engine rev that bit higher, whilst also richening the mixture (by restricting the air-flow into the carb/engine) so that it doesn't stall whilst warming up.
Feck man, please tell me all this isn't simply because you haven't been using any choke, and expecting the carb to fuel sufficiently/engine to idle as is in this colder weather?! :eek:
jantheeven
15-12-2008, 18:47
?
what? the choke only holds the throttle open right? thats what im doing manually anyway!
i dont have a choke flap either.
I really hope this is your "problem" mate... but you should really use the choke flap! I don't think many R5s idle okay from the start without choke, especially in this weather!
?
what? the choke only holds the throttle open right? thats what im doing manually anyway!
i dont have a choke flap either.
what ?!?!? :D
:confused: Ok, but it's holding a steady idle, so what's the prob'?
Andrew Cooke
15-12-2008, 22:58
Blue Peter time
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19718
OK people . My 1108cc campus 5 engine refuses to idle until the engine is up to temperature. Why you ask? The carb manifold has blocked up so there is no water flow through it. So the only heat the carb base is getting is from the head and exhaust manifold below. ;) Worth a check raj.
to save any confusion, i dont call the engine running at 2k idling! idling to me would be sitting at 1krpm max and without cutting out.
But it won't do that if it's cold, and definitely not if you're not using any choke!
2k cold idle is about right. Have you ran the engine till it's fully warmed up, then see what the idle's like when the choke is off?
tiff_lee
16-12-2008, 01:06
just to add, through out this problem ive never had the main turbo to i.c to carb boost hoses fitted! ! pls dont tell me this would be the cause of the idle prob??
Well in effect you're running without an air filter which would no doubt cause the car to run a little leaner (no air restriction through filter) but I doubt it would be causing your issue?
Why not plumb the i.c/ turbo and air filter back in, run it up to temp on the choke as Mart suggested and then see how it is?
Whatever you do don't give up mate, i'm sure everyone has been there banging their head against a wall as it just won't work but we all get there in the end.......well hopefully :crap:
tiff_lee
16-12-2008, 01:16
could you tell me on average what psi i should be aiming to get in the cylinders?
Couldnt tell you exact figures myself but the gunson gauge I have has a 'green zone' which illustrates good compression whatever that is I suppose it is all dependant on your specific compression ratio and the engine you're testing.
However you should have pretty much the same reading over all 4 cylinders.
Depends upon cam spec, but even with a hot stick in situ, you should still see a minimum of circa 120psi. With a standard/warm stick, that figure should be higher (getting on for 150psi).
I wasn't aware you had idling prob's even when the engine was fully warmed up. That eliminates the choke issue...
Stick ~ cam.
Won't make a difference if the hoses are in situ or not when carrying out a comp' test.
as ive never carried out a comp test could someone confirm that my method is correct -
remove all spark plugs
remove king lead
plug comp tester in
crank the engine over a few times with the throttle fully open.
note pressure reading on cylinder
does that sound right.??
Sounds ok to my Raj.
Chris Hebden
16-12-2008, 19:06
I wouldnt take all the sparks out personally
It's better to turn the engine over with all the plugs out as it puts less strain on the engine without the compression in every cylinder.
roflol, how the funk are you going to get a compression reading with the spark plugs out ?!?!?!?!? :laugh:
:confused: I've always got good readings with the plugs out.
:confused: I've always got good readings with the plugs out.
your winding me up right ? :laugh:
Scoff you must be thinking of something else?
The compression tester plugs the cylinder that in under test. That where the compression is.
The others are run with the plug out to allow the starter to easily turn the engine or the reading will probably be lower and might be variable.
My Gunson compression tester states to use it with the plugs removed.
I've just had a complete mental melt down, I'm thinking "how is he getting compression with no plug in" not considering there might be a frigging compression tester screwed into the hole instead :laugh: numb nuts alert :ashamed:
definately fine to remove the other 3
crank the engine over a few times with the throttle fully open.
Crank the engine until there is no further rise in pressure on the dial gauge.
The length of time it take to reach the peak pressure should be noted and compared with that of the other cylinders.
I just tested my Fiat and number one was a bit lower, but it took quite a bit more time to get there. Maybe there is a piston ring sealing issue and it needs extra oil (I think it has sprayers) to seal and take a little while for that to happen. That maybe not so. There was water slightly leaking into that chamber for many miles.
is it too late for me to edit all that away so that no one see's it ? :laugh: *lol* dear god, whats wrong with me today.
Maybe you have the cold going around. I've did last week and over the weekend. Perception and Brain function were scrambled.
Matt Cole
16-12-2008, 23:01
I couldn't even plumb a FPR the other week. 13 years as a mechanical engineer, educated and reasonably competant, and i couldn't work that out!!!:scratch:
olidaviesuk
16-12-2008, 23:47
hmm, this post of mine is a bit immaterial until you get the compression test done, but might help.. what carb is yours?
I've got one of the proper cup carbs with the larger venturi and ALL of the choke flap mech etc removed.. not read the complete thread so apologies if this has been said before but mine on occasions is a real **** to start and hates idling until it is really totally and completely warmed up - pretty much the exact same symptoms as yours. (other than yours doesn't like idling after - which would probably indicate (given a successful compression test) that engine is okay and the carbs either not setup correctly or had it...
(also from past experience tuning na vauxhall lumps on throttle bodies, the more aggressive the cam the harder it is to get a decent smooth low idle - and thats with mappable injection) would assume that it will only get harder with carbs - are you trying to get a smooth idle speed thats too low and not possible with a uprated cam, sure the peeps on here can answer that better than I can - would have thought a smooth idle at 1200 - 1400 rpm on a 285-300 cam would be reasonably acceptable
Is the carb a 'tuner - grp A' carb? or secondhand? only a suggestion, but could it have been fcuk'd at some point and your on the back end of it, have you had the carb working properly before on this engine..?
I've not got much experience with carbs, but if its not run on the engine.. im sure one of the nice peeps on here might lend you a known good, working completely standard carb, then swap it out and see if it eliminates the problem, don't bother setting the jets up for the car or anything as waste of time, if it idles then go down that road...
James George
17-12-2008, 18:40
sounds like duff compression tester if your not getting a reading, even a knackered engine will register something, I would not rush to take head off just yet.
You've either not screwed the tester in far enough/created a good seal on the thread, or the tester itself is fecked...or all 4 plug threads are partially stripped
James George
17-12-2008, 18:41
check you have a good O ring on the connector of the compression tester
Alastair
17-12-2008, 18:51
Raj, i would at least expect a small deflection on the comp tester needle even if Vvs were removed and you turned the engine over? Test it in your bro's engine like you said before you rip the head off.
Also your engine wouldnt start/run above 2k if it was that bad!:agree:
At work with these things i usually find that the best thing in these situations is a fresh pair of eyes (not doubting your abilities bud:)) to go over the basics from scratch and often they will find somthing silly that has been overlooked:smokin:
Anyway good luck mate, i would offer to help but your a tad far away from me! Oh and you car looks lovely in the pics you posted, and to cheer you up have a cop at this...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WaNEDJkALgE
(contains a lot of swearing)
you know that little button on the side that releases the air, make sure that is returning out properly. also, on the tip of the tester itself, where it screws into the hole, there is sometimes a little pin there too, part of the 1 way valve, make sure this is releasing outward also.
even with a foobar engine you'd get some compression, the gauge is telling you fibs mate.
like I said already raj the piston height or compression ratio doesn't play that big a part in your compression test results.
I think your results are fine for an engine that hasn't been run in, but check the valve clearences if like, if they're too tight in places it'll cause a drop in compression as well as a rough running at low rpm's. not as bad rough-running as you're having though, unless they're wildy too tight (in which case the compression results wouldn't not have been as high as they are).
imo, the results are OK.
I think if I were you I'd be doing 2 things:
1/ try yet another known working carb incase you've been incredibly unlucky
2/ do a leak down test on the carb and inlet manifold. this goes something like this:
1) engine off.
2) remove boost hose from the intercooler output.
3) block this pipe off with something, back end of an aerosol, etc, so that the boost pipe is air tight upto the carburettor.
4) with a compressor/air line with gauge fitted (or watching your boost gauge) you want to inject air into one of the carb-top ports to pressurise the carb and manifold upto 20psi or so. You should be able to store pressure in there, it should take a good 10-20sec to leak the pressure away. If there is even the slightest of air leaks you will find it, assuming it isn't via a 1-way valve!
Andrew Cooke
18-12-2008, 19:00
.how can you get a pressure build up as your always going to have various valves that are fully/partly open:confused:
try it, then see if you can work out why it works ;)
soapymech
18-12-2008, 20:03
surely you can just use a footpump
soapymech
18-12-2008, 20:33
really? surely it would have been mentioned though:confused: i just thought that a compressor would get the air in quicker, where as if using a foot pump you wouldnt be able to keep up with the air which actually leaks.?:confused:
i should think that 15 to 20 psi would only only take couple of pumps you should be able to determine how fast ur leaking (if your leaking) id try it before splashing out raj but thats jus me being tight:scared:
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 20:43
If its leaking quicker than you can pump then you got big problems mate! Give it ago, its by far the cheapest option!
i should think that 15 to 20 psi would only only take couple of pumps you should be able to determine how fast ur leaking (if your leaking) id try it before splashing out raj but thats jus me being tight:scared:
no, you need an air line, it'll leak out faster than you can fill it with a foot pump.
soapymech
18-12-2008, 20:47
If its leaking quicker than you can pump then you got big problems mate! Give it ago, its by far the cheapest option!
cmon raj tell me it works??????
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 20:50
no, you need an air line, it'll leak out faster than you can fill it with a foot pump.
Why would it leak out so quickly Scoff?
soapymech
18-12-2008, 20:50
cmon raj tell me it works??????
if u have any breath left:D
I wouldn't like to see you spend money on a compressor just to try something I suggested, it's just the next logical test I'd do if it was me, no guarantee's it'll show anything. it doesn't need to be a big compressor, somone might be able to loan you a portable jobby.
Why would it leak out so quickly Scoff?
its amazing how non-air tight things like the carb, manifolds, valves, piston rings, etc actually are. like I say, 20psi might last 10-20 sec max in a healthy engine, you won't build 20psi that quickly with a foot pump, there's a lot of volume that needs filling.
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 20:54
its amazing how non-air tight things like the carb, manifolds, valves, piston rings, etc actually are. like I say, 20psi might last 10-20 sec max in a healthy engine, you won't build 20psi that quickly with a foot pump, there's a lot of volume that needs filling.
Where does it escape too? The breather circuit?
How long does it take to pump a bike tyre up? and they don't hold much pressure... You won't get anywhere with a foot pump.
it escapes in all directions, out of gasket joints, past carb-top o-rings, past throttle seals, past valves that arn't sealing that well, past piston rings into the crank case and finally out the breather :) I used to pressurise cars upto 2 bar looking for boost leaks and things, I normally block the inlet of the turbo off and pressurise the whole lot, intercooler and all but in raj's case he's better just pressurising from the carb, he doesn't need the destraction of minor air leaks from boost hoses, etc.
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 21:02
How long does it take to pump a bike tyre up? and they don't hold much pressure... You won't get anywhere with a foot pump.
LOL not very long mate! I pumped my spare tyre from flat to 2bar in a matter of minutes! I was f***ed afterwards mind!
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 21:03
it escapes in all directions, out of gasket joints, past carb-top o-rings, past throttle seals, past valves that arn't sealing that well, past piston rings into the crank case and finally out the breather :) I used to pressurise cars upto 2 bar looking for boost leaks and things, I normally block the inlet of the turbo off and pressurise the whole lot, intercooler and all but in raj's case he's better just pressurising from the carb, he doesn't need the destraction of minor air leaks from boost hoses, etc.
With all this in mind then, is there not an easier way of pressure testing the important bits i.e. the carb and manifold by taking it to an engineering shop? Just a thought dont know if its possible?
whats easier than sticking an air line on the carb top ?!?!?! :D
if there was an easier or better way I would have told him that instead :) the point really is that it needs testing in situ, if he removes things then whatever was leaking may well be disturbed and the fault will not be aparant.
LOL not very long mate! I pumped my spare tyre from flat to 2bar in a matter of minutes! I was f***ed afterwards mind!
Exactly the point... If you've got air leaking out within a matter of seconds and your ''uprated'' twin piston foot pump takes you a couple of minutes to get your tyre to 29psi, you don't stand a chance of getting a reading from an engine...
when i did a leak down test with tommyb we used alot of psi cant remember the figure we used det phones and could hear the compression escaping out the carb top. turned out the gudgeon pin has scored the liner but is a better way to diagnose doing a leak down over the compression tester. JUST MAKE SURE your at tdc or the car will try to move.
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 21:10
Exactly the point... If you've got air leaking out within a matter of seconds and your ''uprated'' twin piston foot pump takes you a couple of minutes to get your tyre to 29psi, you don't stand a chance of getting a reading from an engine...
LOL fair comment!
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 21:13
whats easier than sticking an air line on the carb top ?!?!?! :D
Alot if you havent got one ;), just messing! Out of curiosity what could you use to connect the airline to the carb top? A tyre valve?
any old bit of hose, I used to use a dust blower attachment with a bit of old silicon pipe pushed on the end :)
ok will will check on the things you mentioned scoff.
in the meantime.. alistair,that link is sh1t:sad2:
the dubbing done by this guy "buffalax" cracks me up no end:laugh: he redubs everything into what it sounds like in english:laugh:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA1NoOOoaNw
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MSsXlRytRDs&feature=channel_page
now they cheere me up:D
That first link looks like the bollywood version of thriller!!!!
Raj please dont shoot me if i have missed this but
have you removed the breather hose with the restrictor in it from round the back of the carb?
Only saying as i once removed mine and i gave scoff a headache trying to find the problem of a sh*t idle.
Chris Hebden
18-12-2008, 21:22
Ah i am getting too see how this all goes together now!!
are you talking about the hose that goes from the back of the inlet manifold[one way valve] to the t-piece where the restrictors are located..?
i think thats the one.
and while im thinking about it
take the carb top off and see if the long brass needle is leaking.
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=460 - third photo down
photo of it there.
not sure if that would effect the idle, but if its leaking surely it will be over fueling.
i put an oe breather pipe back on and swapped that brass needle and everything run fine in the end.
hummm
i cant remember if we removed mine in the end or not.
Last i remember is we had to pu the OE pipe on to get it to idle.
But my car is garaged miles away currently so i cant just stick my head under the bonnet and double check.
But it wouldnt be the first time someones had idle issues and rtoc pointed out the breather pipe with the restrictor in it as the cause.
Andrew Cooke
19-12-2008, 19:01
good air tools and compressors cost good money. If you need them buy good, otherwise don't bother, noisy underpowered tools will just piss you off.
That size compressor is fine for blowing up your tyres and doing a leakdown test.
rs250nut
19-12-2008, 19:01
Where compressors are concerned you want as high cfm as you can afford. its not all about the size of the pressure vessel.:)
mightymanx
20-12-2008, 02:41
a come on raj you will get there mate.
my 1st ever 5 drove me 2 frustration but after after havin loads of things wrong with it
and fixing them and them braking again i got rid of it despite me having another 15 after the 1st 1 i wish i had kept the 1st 1.
i always found with 5s persistance is the key so do a bit go in then come out again the 5 will not win you will in the end just think how happy ull be when u get it right.
so just keep at it ull get there :D
ok, but why would getting rid of the std breather set up and restrictors cause the car to die..?????
OE worked wonders. Thats all i can say fella.
tiff_lee
20-12-2008, 12:11
Why not try reverting back though? at least that is one less thing to suspect being the cause.
Because it won't make a difference.
Providing the breather port on the inlet manifold is blocked off (which you would do anyway if running the Cup type breather setup), then nothing else on the breather circuit, or what's left of it, is going to affect the idle.
tiff_lee
20-12-2008, 12:33
hhmm well it appears someone else doesn't share the same opinion.
The cup mod breather system doesn't affect the idle, no point in going back to o.e. Imo this has got to be carb related or air leak.
hhmm well it appears someone else doesn't share the same opinion.
Then they're wrong :)
tiff_lee
20-12-2008, 17:40
lol fair enough at least I know now.
Pass. If it was an immobiliser though, the engine wouldn't be firing up full stop.
Unless it's intermittent & precise in where it fails (which I v much doubt) then you're barking up the wrong tree with this one mate...
TNT Tricky Nicky
21-12-2008, 16:19
could be an old immobiliser that was disconnected when the toad alarm was fitted and left in place rather than leaving the hole. most just tap into ignition ciruit but doubt this would cause your problem as it wouldn't run at all
how did you block off the one way valve you removed? may be the bolt is loose sucking air there, hense unable to see any change when adjusting carb as the leak is below
Lost track a bit so dont hurt me, but have you checked the carb body doesnt have a hole in it?
only reason i say that is i used to have a real horsesh*t carb body which we replaced.
ive had more bad idling issues than i can remember.
anyone with more knowledge than a mear ant on here know, if the brass needle at the carb top was leaking fuel would this affect his idling?
i had an issue with mine and swapped it. Also i remember aaeron had a problem with the idle on his gtt clio and we slapped the brass needle about a bit in his as well, that seemed to do the trick. might of been a couple of flucks
Back-firing through the carb top usually means either the ht leads are wrong, the carb is seriously over-fuelling, the cam timing/dizzy gear is wrong, or a valve(s) isn't opening, which could be a bent pushrod, or the valve itself is bent & stuck in the head.
I think you'd know if the latter was the case, as the engine would be sounding rough (as in running on 2 or 3 cylinders), and assuming you've got the ht leads the right way round, and the fact you've swapped out the carb a couple of times, that leaves one thing...which has what's been mentioned to death throughout this thread...
whats the one thing ure thinking of mart? lol
tiff_lee
23-12-2008, 23:58
cam timing/dizzy gear
mightymanx
24-12-2008, 01:50
i agree a friend of mine did a engine change but couldnt get his gtt started
so i went up and soon discovered he had put the leads on the wrong way so worth giving them a check :coffee:
markey b
24-12-2008, 04:28
stupid stupid question... but are your leads:
12 o'clock = 4
3 o'clock = 2
6 o'clock = 1
9 o'clock = 3
number one from the flywheel end, not timing chain end??
i had something with backfire, had dizzy gear in the wrong way, and leads the wrong way, i thought it would cancell out but didnt until i swapped it all back as it should have been
UNICRONICUS
24-12-2008, 10:33
Can someone please go up and sort this out for Raj for his christmas present :laugh: This is one for the ages though WHEN he does sort it ;)
tiff_lee
24-12-2008, 13:00
My mate had a similar issue with his landrover, backfiring and such even though it ran at high revs.
Somehow is dizzy was 180 degrees out so he just moved all the leads round to compensate
i.e swapped 1 & 4 , 2 & 3 (I think thats right?)
12 o'clock = 4
3 o'clock = 2
6 o'clock = 1
9 o'clock = 3
Assuming you mean 12 o' clock being nearest to the radiator, then fail. Number 1 is nearest the rad'.
looks ok mate, if everything else is as you say!
Have you tried taking the pipe off the servo and blocking the end? Servo might be goosed and causing an air leak in there!
rotor are at 6 oclock postion[firing to piston no#1]
Fail.
This is the last time I'm gonna post this...
Rotor arm should be pointing to 12 o' clock on the dizzy cap; ie, number 1; ie, the dizzy cap outlet nearest the radiator. Period.
If it's pointing towards the rocker cover/6 o' clock, the dizzy gear is 180deg's out at best. At worst it'll be a tooth either side of that out, which could be what your problem is.
The fact that you're getting backfire through the carb confirms the above. That, or your lead placement is incorrect, even though the whole dizzy gear is 180deg' out.
Take the dizzy unit out, take the dizzy cog out that sits on the cam, double-check you're defo at tdc, re-slot the dizzy cog in place, making sure that when you refit the dizzy gear, the rotor arm now points to number 1 dizzy cap contact. Number 1 being nearest the radiator, as I've said several times previously throughout this thread.
If it isn't, take the dizzy gear out again, take the cog out again, and re-slot it a tooth backwards/forwards as required. It's trial & error, but there will be a point that when the cog is fully home, with the dizzy gear sitting on top of it, the rotor arm WILL be pointing bang on number 1 contact in the dizzy cap.
After that, re-plug your ht leads on the cap in the correct order, namely 1-2-4-3 going anti-clockwise on the dizzy cap.
You could've mentioned that earlier from the previous times that I've asked...
Andrew Cooke
26-12-2008, 12:56
You could've mentioned that earlier from the previous times that I've asked...
surely the fact that it runs would tell you that it wasn't 180 deg out
surely the fact that it runs would tell you that it wasn't 180 deg out
Not if the ht leads had been fitted thus so. I went from Markey's post about 6 o' clock being nearest the rocker cover.
TNT Tricky Nicky
26-12-2008, 13:24
:scratch: the thing i keep coming back to is valve clearence, you sure you've got it right for the cam? i have read through but can't remember if you were told it's definatley 100% what you've used. the fact it's actually running smooth over 2k rules out timing and mechnical issues so just leaves fuelling. may also be worth whipping out one way valve and bolt and putting ptfe tape on just incase the threads are loose, could be that simple
Andrew Cooke
26-12-2008, 16:53
have you got a boost/vac gauge fitted to the manifold?
Andrew Cooke
26-12-2008, 17:08
the only gauge fitted is the oe one.
note that no boost pipes/ carb elbow / i.c has ever been fitted yet.
you don't need any of that
TNT Tricky Nicky
26-12-2008, 17:09
a few folks in the know have said that they stick to std oe valve clearances even with aftermarket cams!
they'd kno mate, that's the problem really all the big guns on here have already given ideas and solutions and still no joy. hopefully someone will get it sorted for you
Adam 005
26-12-2008, 18:54
just a quick question which end of the engine are you using as the marker for number one piston.I.e water pump end or flywheel end?
The c1j engine piston number 1 is nearest the fly wheel and number 4 is at the water pump end.
just a quick question which end of the engine are you using as the marker for number one piston.I.e water pump end or flywheel end?
The c1j engine piston number 1 is nearest the fly wheel and number 4 is at the water pump end.
fly wheel end
the only gauge fitted is the oe one.
note that no boost pipes/ carb elbow / i.c has ever been fitted yet.
I think what Andy's getting at is that it would be interesting to see what sort of vac its pulling at idle!! Maybe give us a clue as to what the problem is!!
You need to block everything that could be leaking. The brake servo outlet, has the carb got the base insulator and both gaskets fitted? have you removed all bleed valves and associated piping, just run 1 vac line straight to the AEI.
markey b
26-12-2008, 20:26
Assuming you mean 12 o' clock being nearest to the radiator, then fail. Number 1 is nearest the rad'.
yeah i meant as if you have the bonnet off, and are standing in front of the car looking down.. dont fail me just yet lol
MR TURBO
02-01-2009, 18:30
I really hope that is the prob and you get it all sorted:niceone::niceone:
Chris Hebden
02-01-2009, 18:40
:scratch: What a day! It was an interesting day i have to say, but a real shame we couldnt get it running anybetter than what we managed too in the end. 1200rpm was the slowest we could get it idling in the end, with a reasonable AFR that was with a .5mm idle jet
It was good meeting you Raj and Scoff, still cant get over the hob trick :D!
Andrew Cooke
03-01-2009, 14:55
"heres the results -
no#1 = 160 psi.
no#2 = 140 psi.
no#3 = 170 psi.
no#4 = 150 psi.
"
I'd have expected more like 140psi with your cam and low cr, maybe even less. 170 psi looks like either a bad gauge, much higher CR than you think, or advanced cam timing.
Are you sure that you still have the woodruff key in the crank?
I'm not sure what you want me to measure, but I will do. If it's as bad as you think I imagine it'd look pretty bad.
cooking hobs are more usefull than you'd think ;)
anyway, this is a wierd fault, here's what we did at raj's yesterday:
fired it up, sure enough it was lean at idle but sounded larier than i'd expect.
mixture screw did not provide enough fuel, nor does another known working carburettor.
I drilled up an 0.5mm idle jet and got idle AFR's into the 14's. that brought the idle down to 1200rpm, still it sounded choppy like a lairy camshaft. a ktec-260 cam should not need this much fuel at idle I'm sure. If it was some lairy big-overlap cam then I could understand it.
Chris brought up a compressor so we sealed the carb inlet off and pressurised to check for leaks. it's fine, it holds 2 bar in the manifold so not an air leak.
I strobed the ignition timing too, nothing out of the ordinary, so not AEI or TDC related.
So it's camshaft I thought. timing disc on the crank we checked the cam timing, it was perfect at 110° ATDC. So not a cam timing issue.
Still with the timing disc on we roughly measured duration, with 0.3mm valve clearance we got about 240deg between the valve starting to lift and being fully closed again. It was a bit of a crude measurement, we had no DTI to hand so it's probably a bit off.
we also looked at valve lift at TDC, we had both valves open aprox 2mm at TDC, looking at andy's cam data I was expecting more like 1mm, again with 0.3mm clearence. so that apeared to show a lot more overlap than his camshaft should have given, but we were pissing about with a steel rule against the spring cap, not ideal, so probably doesn't tell us much.
non sealing valves might have the same symptoms, we re-did the compression test with my gauge, had about 140psi, so not valves, and raj assured me they were lapped in good and propper.
inlet ports, manifold, etc are all standard.
I'm convinced it's something to do with the cam.
I think raj will refit the standard cam, see how that runs.
Andrew Cooke
03-01-2009, 15:32
cooking hobs are more usefull than you'd think ;)
anyway, this is a wierd fault, here's what we did at raj's yesterday:
fired it up, sure enough it was lean at idle but sounded larier than i'd expect.
mixture screw did not provide enough fuel, nor does another known working carburettor.
I drilled up an 0.5mm idle jet and got idle AFR's into the 14's. that brought the idle down to 1200rpm, still it sounded choppy like a lairy camshaft. a ktec-260 cam should not need this much fuel at idle I'm sure. If it was some lairy big-overlap cam then I could understand it.
Chris brought up a compressor so we sealed the carb inlet off and pressurised to check for leaks. it's fine, it holds 2 bar in the manifold so not an air leak.
I strobed the ignition timing too, nothing out of the ordinary, so not AEI or TDC related.
So it's camshaft I thought. timing disc on the crank we checked the cam timing, it was perfect at 110° ATDC. So not a cam timing issue.
Still with the timing disc on we roughly measured duration, with 0.3mm valve clearance we got about 240deg between the valve starting to lift and being fully closed again. It was a bit of a crude measurement, we had no DTI to hand so it's probably a bit off.
we also looked at valve lift at TDC, we had both valves open aprox 2mm at TDC, looking at andy's cam data I was expecting more like 1mm, again with 0.3mm clearence. so that apeared to show a lot more overlap than his camshaft should have given, but we were pissing about with a steel rule against the spring cap, not ideal, so probably doesn't tell us much.
non sealing valves might have the same symptoms, we re-did the compression test with my gauge, had about 140psi, so not valves, and raj assured me they were lapped in good and propper.
inlet ports, manifold, etc are all standard.
I'm convinced it's something to do with the cam.
I think raj will refit the standard cam, see how that runs.
did you check the total lift? 240deg of seat duration and 2mm lift at TDC with 110LSA just sounds weird, that gives 220deg duration at 2mm lift, that would give 2mm lift in 10 deg, or 0.2mm per deg, I've not seen as much as 0.1mm per deg at the steepest part of the ramp.
andy, it was a bodge job regarding the measuring so don't read too much into those numbers. I think the lift at TDC was fairly accurate, the duration was down to me wiggling the rockers to see when the gap had closed up. as you know, its a bit piss poor. I didn't measure total lift.
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2009, 17:41
whats a wood ruff key :scratch: if its the metal insert that slot on the end of the crank just under the crank sprocket then yes, its in situ.
just in the process of refitting a std cam.
that's the fella :)
does it say ktec-260 on the end of the cam?
bones660
05-01-2009, 18:59
i havent taken it out yet,
should it actually say "ktec 260" on the end then.? is that what you remember? or are you assuming?
does ayone else have a ktec powersystems cam fitted.?
adam005 has a ktec cam.
Andrew Cooke
05-01-2009, 19:04
i havent taken it out yet,
should it actually say "ktec 260" on the end then.? is that what you remember? or are you assuming?
does ayone else have a ktec powersystems cam fitted.?
no, it'll say 709 110, I was just checking whether you were paying attention
my god
wht a carry on uve had with this
i really hope you get this doe and dusted asap
:)
Chris Hebden
05-01-2009, 21:05
You not god that cam out yet? I thought you would have got it out before me and Scoff had got home ;)!!!!
Raj, it will say 709@110 (709@110 ...just)- like Andy said.
no mention of ktec at all....especially as they got piper to make it for em....
no, it'll say 709 110, I was just checking whether you were paying attention
Chris Hebden
05-01-2009, 21:59
:rolleyes: tut tut! New came back in straight away as well?
bones660
06-01-2009, 19:14
also to add, i compared the ktec cam to the std one. not technically but by sight.
the difference is that the lobes on the ktec cam are more steep and the std cams lobes are more of a smooth slope. im assuming thats right?
the k-tec cam should have slightly longer [ in a word ] lobes . hence to keeep the valve open longer and slightly more than standard . :agree:
Markey Mark (BD)
06-01-2009, 19:17
the k-tec cam should have slightly longer [ in a word ] lobes . hence to keeep the valve open longer and slightly more than standard . :agree:
In a way your right mate but to make it lift more the base of the lobe will be shorter to create the lift so it'll look smaller at the bottom
bones660
06-01-2009, 19:23
In a way your right mate but to make it lift more the base of the lobe will be shorter to create the lift so it'll look smaller at the bottom
i was just trying to explain in simpler terms for him to get the basic's of what uprated cams are and do . without being to :scratch: :agree: :agree:
Markey Mark (BD)
06-01-2009, 19:24
i was just trying to explain in simpler terms for him to get the basic's of what uprated cams are and do . without being to :scratch: :agree: :agree:
I know mate thats cool:)
bones660
06-01-2009, 19:25
I know mate thats cool:)
or should i say without :scratch: myself. :D
i was just trying to explain in simpler terms for him to get the basic's of what uprated cams are and do . without being to :scratch: :agree: :agree:
are you saying raj is simple thats not nice:wasntme:
trim the ears off the horseshoe seal, use plenty of sealant and press the cover down firmly, making sure the ends of the horseshoe seal dont poke into the sump area- u want them poking outwards if they are gonna poke out at all.- then seal all gaps with lots of sealant.
but ive not put it all back together yet as ive spent the majority of the day thinking i could squeeze the timing cover back on with the sump in situ:sad2: fuk no!:brickwall:
sooo ill be taking the sump off tommorow and going from there, shouldnt take long to refit everything:rolleyes:
yeah, thats what I was trying to explain to you raj. snip the tab/ears off :D
also, I find sticking it to the bottom of the timing cover first helps, letting it go partly off so it stays inplace, then fresh sealant on everything else and wodge it on, bottom end into the sump first.
Purple_rob
06-01-2009, 19:51
appologies i cant reply to the above as ive no idea when it comes to the technical side of cam lift, duration etc etc :ashamed: to me its just a lumpy stick.:scratch:
ill be refitting the std cam back in over the next few days and all being well the idle problem will be sorted.
Wow mammoth thread and I just sat here for about 3/4 hour reading it.
I had to laugh out loud at the lumpy stick comment above though, that was good :).
raj , I hope you get this sorted mate.
It seems I have become an addict of this "reality" thread :)
is the lumpy stick going to be sent off to andy to have a look at when you looking to be up and running again then raj im dying to find out the verdict i cant take it anymore:dearme:
bones660
06-01-2009, 20:33
i personally cant be bothered to send it off to andy now. hes had it once already and i doubt anythings changed. the cam still looks ok which is making me worry that the cam may not be the cause:scared: ill save my worrying for after the cars running though:coffee:
you know that after all this . it will turn out to be one of the simplest of things . it's probably out there now shouting at you. youwho . you have'nt checked me , have you . :innocent:
hope you get it sorted soon mate .
markey b
08-01-2009, 01:47
how you get on??
bones660
08-01-2009, 21:05
i'll chop friggin chop you:upyours: its too choppy outside and ive got no heater in me garage:sad:
any luck yet . stop having:coffee: breaks , more production please . if you are cold , then you are not working hard or fast enough,,:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
The night is young Raj, fill her up ;) :D
come on dude get her burning :)
Do it please Mr Raj. :coffee:
DaveMayGTT
09-01-2009, 18:36
lol @ the loads of people just waiting eagerly to see what happens with the new cam with more interest than raj. Hope it works m8.
MR TURBO
09-01-2009, 18:39
Like said b4 its like a mini series that went bigger........Come on raj:D
for gods sake raj get on with it ;)
markey b
09-01-2009, 19:25
we need some background music to add some suspense... lol
...the suspense is killing me! Huuuuurry up! :)
MR TURBO
11-01-2009, 00:00
Whats happening Raj??? :cool:
DaveMayGTT
11-01-2009, 08:53
raj, dont upset your viewers, theres gonna be public outbursts and rioting soon
extraturbo
11-01-2009, 18:20
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
omg jus spent ages reading this the suspense is crazy jus want to know what happened!
hope uve got it sprted Raj.
bones660
11-01-2009, 19:50
:brickwall:
i agree:brickwall::brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:
obviously stalling cos its still not working and the cam aint the problem.... shoddy workmanship if you ask me. :laugh:
a part that you were missing eh?? maybe the reason why it didnt idle ;)
Andrew Cooke
13-01-2009, 21:12
a part that you were missing eh?? maybe the reason why it didnt idle ;)
not at all, it's just the idle speed control valve
so how did the engine idle after i'd built it with the same cam in?
I fear the worst mate, if I'm being honest; ie, that the cam you've removed isn't the root of your problem :( Hope I'm wrong though :agree:
Hope it's all now tickity boo mate. If not, perhaps ya man Sparkie there needs to cast his hairy hands over your engine again?
if scoff and co cant sort it, i doubt my 'hairy hands' will have the sparkle to perform miracles. :laugh:
Chris Hebden
13-01-2009, 22:38
Still no joy then Raj?
MR TURBO
14-01-2009, 15:59
i "think" ive found the problem..!!!!!
scoff.. dont shoot me down as you did mention this when you was round:ashamed: :D so going on what you said i thought id check AAAAND:ashamed:............................ive noticed the inlet ports in my head are smooth when "compared" to all my other spare heads!! so im assuming its been ported at some point.!
what actually made me take the head off AGAIN:rolleyes: was i remembered seeing the squish area machined.! which made me think "has it been fettled with in other areas!
so im thinking ive found the cause of the idle problem:yeah:
just got to put it back together after ive roughened up the inlet ports:rolleyes:
so the question is.. What grade sand paper should i use to do this? and should sand the ports in an in/out motion or left/right.?
what a feck around:rolleyes::sad2::wasntme::sad::laugh::cry:
:coffee:
Feck knows but i've still got my fingers and toes crossed.......COME ON MY SON!!!!
Just pour some sand into the carb
:laugh:
Chris Hebden
14-01-2009, 16:11
Raj i wouldnt use sand paper mate, a bit of emory cloth should do the trick i would have said, you wont have to worry about leaving sand behind?
How is a smooth inlet tract gonna stop the car from idling?
that'll prolly smoothen them off even more:rolleyes: :coffee:
now go back to sleep:cooter:
Personally, I just wanted to see you pour sand in your carb :coffee:
Chris Hebden
14-01-2009, 16:16
How is a smooth inlet tract gonna stop the car from idling?
Something to do with the inlet ports not mixing the air and fuel enough (Atomising- not sure thats the right word)
Chris Hebden
14-01-2009, 16:16
emery cloth? whats that? sounds a better idea.
Its basically sand paper but a bit courser and doesnt leave the paper, its red in colour?
Chris Hebden
14-01-2009, 16:36
Never heard of that mate
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_17 0731_langId_-1_categoryId_165610
Have a butchers at this, you can get it on a roll which is easier!
Something to do with the inlet ports not mixing the air and fuel enough (Atomising- not sure thats the right word)
It was a rhetorical question mate.
Atomisation initially (and in the majority) takes place in the carb venturi & inlet manifold throat/headers.
errr, ok are you saying the head you have on has no squish area?
i l k e r
14-01-2009, 17:26
isn't that the infamous gr.A head mod?
Part of the squish area can be removed if ya trying to lower the c/r (after a head-skim for example), so nothing abnormal there.
Again, I fear you're barking up the wrong tree :(
just a thought raj me old mukka.....do you have the water pipes connected up to the inlet manifold heating element?
how smooth are your inlet ports? - shiny as in mirror finish, or are they still matt finish, with faint scratches in across the runner...not lengthways down it.
Andrew Cooke
14-01-2009, 19:48
how well do your gaskets/manifolds match that fancy head?
You might want to check your combustion chamber volume now that it's apart, standard is 43.4cc.
i would have said your runners are fine.
what happened to "its a totally standard cylinder head" raj :D
Chris Hebden
14-01-2009, 21:25
Can someone point out too me the machined part on the head as i cant recognise it please?
Can someone point out too me the machined part on the head as i cant recognise it please?
the top and bottom of each chamber in that pic chris, there's normally a flat ledge. google-images squish or quench area, better than someone trying to describe it.
Chris Hebden
14-01-2009, 22:08
Thanks for that Scoff, this is getting more confusing as time goes on!
so basically, nothing appears to be standard on this engine at all?
what next N/A 1.1 pistons, cos you wanted to save a few bob?:laugh:
Andrew Cooke
14-01-2009, 23:31
http://www.cosworthvega.com/cc_an_engine_GEC.html
I use a syringe coz I'm cheap :laugh:
Hello?? Am I the only one here not grasping the fact why the head/runners are causing the engine to not idle?
Hello?? Am I the only one here not grasping the fact why the head/runners are causing the engine to not idle?
that was one of the 1st things I discussed with raj when I visited, I don't think they're smooth enough to worry about, maybe not ? he told me they were standard / not polished.
I think the head inlet ports/tracts would have to be super polished/mirror finish before you could possibly point the finger at them for causing a cr8p idle, but even then I'm not totally convinced, as, as mentioned earlier, the majority of fuel atomisation takes place in the venturi/inlet throat/manifold.
Maybe on an efi setup, where the injector(s) is nearer to the inlet port(s), then it's feasible, but I can't see it on the gtt's carb'd setup, not when there's a fair 'distance' between venturi & head ports for the atomisation to take place.
I might be completely wrong, and I hope I am, in that you finally get your engine running properly, but I do personally think you're barking up the wrong tree with this one.
well, yeah, your right ofcourse mart but trust me, when you hunt around that engine you'll be grasping at straws just like I was :D
bones660
15-01-2009, 18:07
decided not to re-fit this modded head:disagree: this probs gone on far too long:rolleyes:
so! im just in the process of cleaning up/lapping valves in etc a std head ready to fit:agree:
i just hope for the sake of the 5:hmmph: that the modded head was the problem! knowing my luck it wont be:rolleyes:
just a question regarding fitting this std head..- how can i be 100% its flat.? im not confident with a metal ruler etc. just wondering,do places that skim heads offer to check a head for flatness?
if you are not 100% . then have it cleaned up . ie not a full skim . just a clean. to be safe . :agree:
MR TURBO
21-01-2009, 13:28
ITS ALIVE (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c) :yeah::cool2::burnrubber:
M8 i'm over the moon for ya.......Also pleased this story has a happy ending unlike some series's.......Happy boosting dogg:yeah::yeah::yeah:
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