PDA

View Full Version : Front wheel position / alignment, weird one..???


Ashy
12-08-2012, 21:20
I've noticed this before but it now stands out more due to increasing my wheel size from15's to 16's. On one side of the car the position of the front wheels in their arch is different.

I have taken the a couple of pics to show you what I mean, see below:

Passenger side - Looks spot on

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/passenger%20side.jpg

Drivers Side - Sitting too far back in the arch.

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/Drivers%20Side.jpg


So just to confirm whats been done to the front end during the re-bulid.
- Front subframe taken from another car - no alignment issues when fitting.
- New front wishbones.
- Fully Poly-bushed.
- new ball joints, steering rack, track rod ends.
- New GAZ coil overs, rubbers, bearings, strut tops.

I've even had a full 4 wheel alignment done which didn't throw up any issues.

However, Measuring the wheel centres from front to back the passenger side measures exactly 2400mm where as the driver side is 2390mm so its 10mm further back... :confused:

Now I have had an issue on the back where one wheel looked to be further under the arch than the other, I managed to sort that by losening the rear beam bolts and jimmying the full beam over then re-tightening. Its now perfect.

I'm wondering if it could be a similar issue on the front subframe, is there enough play in the bolts to twist it so that the drivers side comes forward 5mm and the passenger side drops back by 5mm making the whell centre measurement 2395mm on both sides?

Its got me baffled, i was thinking maybe the car had had a bump before I got it but if it had then the new subframe wouldn't of lined up properly (assuming one side is bent back by 10mm...

Any ideas chaps?
JRP
12-08-2012, 21:22
has the car had a bump in the past? or hit a curb hard?
R5MJH
12-08-2012, 21:26
has the car had a bump in the past? or hit a curb hard?

exactly is the leg straight?
Ashy
12-08-2012, 21:29
Its got me baffled, i was thinking maybe the car had had a bump before I got it but if it had then the new subframe wouldn't of lined up properly (assuming one side is bent back by 10mm...



....
Alastair
12-08-2012, 21:29
Ashy - definitely an issue if your measurements centre to centre are correct, and looking at the pics they look weird. Most likely is a bent wishbone mate, they used to recon a second a lap after curbing at brands.

There is a couple of mm play in the bottom ball joints, and you will be able to get a few more on the strut top bolts (where your brace sits).

if i were you i would take the time to do this:
Get a large level bit of tarmac (check with spirit level) - a workshop is usually good.
Get a long tape measure and some chalk and a decent straight edge

Mark out all 4 wheels on the floor with a straight line (use a long line so you can measure toe in and out for each wheel)

Remove the car and then use a set square to work out which wheel is out and investigate.

Hope that helps mate, pm me if not clear ... ;)
Ashy
12-08-2012, 21:49
Ashy - definitely an issue if your measurements centre to centre are correct, and looking at the pics they look weird. Most likely is a bent wishbone mate, they used to recon a second a lap after curbing at brands.

There is a couple of mm play in the bottom ball joints, and you will be able to get a few more on the strut top bolts (where your brace sits).

if i were you i would take the time to do this:
Get a large level bit of tarmac (check with spirit level) - a workshop is usually good.
Get a long tape measure and some chalk and a decent straight edge

Mark out all 4 wheels on the floor with a straight line (use a long line so you can measure toe in and out for each wheel)

Remove the car and then use a set square to work out which wheel is out and investigate.

Hope that helps mate, pm me if not clear ... ;)

Yeah, I was thinking of taking it into work one Sunday and getting a chalk line out...

I wonder if it could be a wishbone?
Scoff
12-08-2012, 22:24
Are GT wishbones handed ? I know that some clio, etc, are. Could you have a LH wishbone on the right ?
Nottswoody
12-08-2012, 22:29
Yes they are bud did them a couple of weeks ago.. It's stamped into them
Ashy
12-08-2012, 22:31
Are GT wishbones handed ? I know that some clio, etc, are. Could you have a LH wishbone on the right ?

Are they handed by the little tag / lug that hangs down below and the half clip hooks through to hold the end of the anti-roll bar & bush in place?
dangerous dave
12-08-2012, 22:43
i remember this coming up on the 106/saxo forums, lots of peoples cars look pi55ed, never read to the end of the thread to find out why.. :crap:
Ashy
12-08-2012, 22:56
i remember this coming up on the 106/saxo forums, lots of peoples cars look pi55ed, never read to the end of the thread to find out why.. :crap:

:rolleyes:
Tony Walker
12-08-2012, 23:55
You can push the bushes different amounts to adjust caster, are yours perhaps pushed too far/not enough on one side
Alastair
13-08-2012, 08:01
Are they handed by the little tag / lug that hangs down below and the half clip hooks through to hold the end of the anti-roll bar & bush in place?

yes both ARB clips should be to the rear of the wishbone.
Alastair
13-08-2012, 08:02
You can push the bushes different amounts to adjust caster, are yours perhaps pushed too far/not enough on one side

Not with poly bushes IIRC? but worth checking anyway.
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
13-08-2012, 08:04
Just a quickie, what caster readings did you get Ashy?
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
13-08-2012, 08:05
Not with poly bushes IIRC? but worth checking anyway.

There are two different types of poly bush Al, older pressed in tubes and bushes like originals and the bigger/fatter ones which were more popular.
Ashy
13-08-2012, 13:13
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/IMG-20120616-WA0002.jpg
Ashy
13-08-2012, 13:14
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/IMG-20120616-WA0000.jpg
Alastair
13-08-2012, 14:12
Ashy, might be worth getting your tape measure out and measuring how far forward the mounts for the wishbones are from the rear bolt holes on each side :)
Tony Walker
13-08-2012, 20:18
measure from the centre of the rear wheel to front wheel too, altho the rear axle can be bolted on out of alignment still worth checking and easy to do.
Ashy
13-08-2012, 20:56
measure from the centre of the rear wheel to front wheel too, altho the rear axle can be bolted on out of alignment still worth checking and easy to do.




However, Measuring the wheel centres from front to back the passenger side measures exactly 2400mm where as the driver side is 2390mm so its 10mm further back... :confused:




As above mate, just gona have a look under now with the tape measure and see if I can see anything obvious.
Tony Walker
13-08-2012, 21:09
ah right, it does look around 10mm out. can you measure the angle of the wishbone? were the bushes eccentric in any way? ive seen eccentric bushes as a mod on skylines and a few other cars.
Ashy
13-08-2012, 21:19
THink I've sussed it, photos on the way 2 secs....
Tony Walker
13-08-2012, 21:20
oooooohhhh drum roll.............................................. ..............................................
Tony Walker
13-08-2012, 21:21
strut deffinetly looks more vertical on one of them.
Alastair
13-08-2012, 21:30
CHOP CHOP PICS PLEASE!:laugh:
Ashy
13-08-2012, 21:33
Just doing a bit cropping.... :p
Ashy
13-08-2012, 21:41
OK here goes, see what you think

Passenger Side Front

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/PS-FF.jpg

Passenger Side Rear

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/PS-R.jpg

Drivers Side Front

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/DS-FF.jpg

Drivers Side Rear

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/DS-R.jpg
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
13-08-2012, 21:49
Ah-Ha! the sleeves have moved!
Thats why I was asking about the caster angles.

Were the metal sleeves welded in place when the poly bushes were fitted?
Ashy
13-08-2012, 21:51
Heres the comparison...

Drivers Side Front on Mine

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/DS-FF.jpg

Drivers Side Front On another subframe.

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Wheel%20alignment/DS-F-Rusty90.jpg

:crap:
Ashy
13-08-2012, 21:54
Were the metal sleeves welded in place when the poly bushes were fitted?

Even though the wishbones were brand new I had them shot blasted and powder coated before fitting the new bushes.... You can see that it hasn't moved since being powder coated so I can only assume it wasn't right to start with? :confused:
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
13-08-2012, 21:57
Looks that way...:(

Best to get them off and compare them to some originals,
Ashy
13-08-2012, 22:06
Looks that way...:(

Best to get them off and compare them to some originals,

Yeah, think i'll change them both!
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
13-08-2012, 22:11
Who did the bushes?
Tony Walker
13-08-2012, 22:18
:D simples :agree:
Ashy
13-08-2012, 22:35
Who did the bushes?

Me... :rolleyes:
Tony Walker
13-08-2012, 22:37
:) you'll get to do them again now :agree:
Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
13-08-2012, 22:38
;)
Hehe! At least you can put it to bed for a while now.
Ashy
14-08-2012, 07:04
At least I know the cars not bent after all that work!! cheers for the help :agree:
Alastair
14-08-2012, 19:19
Good news mate, clad it is an easy fix - and your handling will be much better for it too:agree:
Ashy
14-08-2012, 23:31
Quick Update - fitted another wishbone, which looks fine, dropped the car back down and although its much better it still isn't perfect. Wheel centres measure 2400mm and 2395mm.

So its moved it forward 5mm but its still 5mm short... Maybe I'll find a few mm by loosening the subframe and see if I can get the additional movment that way.

Or maybe I'm worrying over nothing... 5mm doesnt seem a lot over 2.4M :confused:
Tony Walker
15-08-2012, 07:34
maybe its the other side thats too long.
philg
15-08-2012, 08:18
Glad you sorted, fix that front bumper to while you are on to ;)
GTphil
15-08-2012, 10:09
Glad you sorted, fix that front bumper to while you are on to ;)


I noticed the bumper also, was trying to work out if it's suppost to sit like that or not, mine did that for years and I couldn't figure it out, turns out o had the little plastic brackets that bolt to the bumper the wrong way round.

Hope you get the wheel alignment issue sorted mate;)
Ashy
15-08-2012, 12:35
I noticed the bumper also, was trying to work out if it's suppost to sit like that or not, mine did that for years and I couldn't figure it out, turns out o had the little plastic brackets that bolt to the bumper the wrong way round.

Hope you get the wheel alignment issue sorted mate;)


Its becasue i've tried to squeeze a big front mount behind it without cutting the bumper and its just a little bit too tight so it holds the bumper off slightly. Its on my list of things to sort but its somewhere near the bottom!

I might measure the wheel centres on my other two 5's and see what they measure.
Coops
15-08-2012, 14:14
i'd do as above, get standard wishbones on BOTH sides and then measure and check, as both polybushed ones could be out, one to far forward, one too far back :cool: