so its happened, hg has gone :( [Archive]

gttjames

10-05-2012, 21:27

cant beleive it, bought the car almost 5 years ago, done plenty of miles on it (15k) without any real faults, then the camshaft sprocket spins off, so had engine out over xmas and put a piper 270 cam in and re timmed it all up, got it mot'd a month ago done about 300 miles then took it out tonight. Let it warm up for a couple mins, then pulled off, normal cold driving no boost, and 2 miles down the road noticed white smoke out the back and temp was going up and down, pulled over and got water in my oil breather pot and low coolant. So gutted.

So head off then to inspect whats happened i guess?

>>>>>>>>>>>>> SKIP TO PAGE 2 <<<<<<<<<<

Tony Walker

10-05-2012, 21:55

How much water in your breather?, best bet is a Carbon monoxide test on your coolant to see if theres gases in there.

gttjames

10-05-2012, 22:31

i last had the car out tuesday and it was fine, put it in garage then got it out today and started it and was really lumpy on idle, then after 10seconds went fine again. Where the oe breather hose goes to the air filter pipe i just run this to a oil catch tank, well it had about a egg cup full of water in there, with a touch of oil. Was none in there on tuesday... And the header tank is empty

Got a volvo compression tester at work so il see if i can adapt it to fit or will it run 10miles as il drive it to work and take it to mot bay and see if theres exhuast gases in the header?

Tony Walker

11-05-2012, 07:47

starting lumpy doesnt sound promising :( i'd top the coolant up make sure its bled put the cap on and see if it pressurises the coolant system

gttjames

11-05-2012, 08:40

had to drive it home this morning (3 miles ish)

started it up, lump on idle, then sorted within 20 seconds, drove it home, checked oil catch tank bit and its got another egg cup full of water in there and loads of mayo on filler cap, dipstick. So thats settled that.

Shall i just get head straigh off, or should i compression test 1st? And how do i work out if its a different issue like pistons or something, or this be obvious with head off?

cheers

Brigsy

11-05-2012, 09:37

Just pull head straight off if the oil is full of mayo. Get it back together and get the fuelling set up again, job sorted

gttjames

11-05-2012, 09:43

well hope it is just the hg, il make time over weekend and get it off. Il report back as no doubt will come across some issue's.

Oh well 15k ish miles in 5 years and no hg so far so isnt to bad going i suppose

guys while iv got head off this looks ideal time to sort my knocky noise from head. I set tappets to 20/20 on a piper 270 and was really rough. Was going to set them to 15/25 as suggested by piper and see what they where like, but while head is off what is worth replacing/checking for wear as after hearing a few other gtt's i would like mine sounding smooth like theres. Ellz from here just got a 5 with a 285 cam etc and it sounds very smooth

R5MJH

11-05-2012, 09:59

id always check the piston comps also was it breathing heavy we had this and it turned out to be rings sounds more hg in your case but always worth checking compresion boss

Markey Mark (BD)

11-05-2012, 15:42

Have the head pressure tested mate, may well have slight crack in there ;)

gttjames

12-05-2012, 15:30

How much should i be looking at paying for head tested? And what should head thickness be as iv read that somewhere 73.3? Ic measured mine best i can with a ruler and think its 72mm? where should i be mesuring and what is acceptable?

Well it goes like this....
suspicious....
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg003.jpg

oh dear
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg006.jpg

head off
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg007.jpg

gasket shots, looks very old and rusty to me, anyone confirm the hg has failed and no need to look elsewhere?
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg008.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg009.jpg

cant see any cracks or damaged to pistons etc
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg010.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg011.jpg

head and block both seem flat to me
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg013.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/headygggg014.jpg

Brigsy

12-05-2012, 15:42

The head should be 73.5 mate, although you could get away with 73 with the mellior gasket. You need vernier calipers to check the height of the head accurately

gttjames

12-05-2012, 16:07

il try and get hold of some for a better measurement

pistons have all got 52047E stamped on them, standard renault im assumming?

So anyone confirm the gasket failed? Also what bits if any should i check for wear to sort the noisey rattling head

guys while iv got head off this looks ideal time to sort my knocky noise from head. I set tappets to 20/20 on a piper 270 and was really rough. (was rough even with standard cam and set by haynes manual) Was going to set them to 15/25 as suggested by piper and see what they where like, but while head is off what is worth replacing/checking for wear as after hearing a few other gtt's i would like mine sounding smooth like theres. Ellz from here just got a 5 with a 285 cam etc and it sounds very smooth and others iv heard sound fine

Dave Reed

12-05-2012, 16:19

cant really see in that pic.. You need to take some close up pics of each firing ring.

I'd be looking at cylinder no2 as that's the cleanest, most likely where the water has cleaned the carbon of.

gttjames

12-05-2012, 17:30

cant really see in that pic.. You need to take some close up pics of each firing ring.

I'd be looking at cylinder no2 as that's the cleanest, most likely where the water has cleaned the carbon of.

the ring at the top of the bore, close ups of each ok i will get

Dave Reed

12-05-2012, 17:54

the ring at the top of the bore, close ups of each ok i will get

No, I was referring to how clean the piston was.. But ye close ups of the gasket will be much better.. Your looking for a squashed part on the fire ring (the metal part that sits on top of the liner, on the gasket) Will only be a tiny indent.

Tony Walker

12-05-2012, 18:13

Definetly cylinder 2 looks like where liner 2/3 meet.

rs250nut

12-05-2012, 18:16

Check the liners for cracks.

gttjames

14-05-2012, 09:26

heres some close ups guys

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/r5hgfiringring005.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/r5hgfiringring006.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/r5hgfiringring007.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/r5hgfiringring008.jpg

gttjames

14-05-2012, 11:27

right well as far as i can see the hg has not failed, its clear water has got in cylinder no.2 - this will explain the missfire on start up. Head looks flat with a steel rule best i can check, where do i go from here?

also trying to cure 'bag of nails' from rocker cover, how worn can cam followers be, mine have light rub marks on them but all appear flat

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/followers001.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/followers002.jpg

Mart

14-05-2012, 11:50

Could be a perished liner seal causing the mayo, but the misfire/white steam at start-up points more towards water in a cylinder (No.2, going from the pictures) for sure.

If the head isn't cracked, for the sake of whipping off the sump & 2 nuts per rod, I'd be pulling the liners out for a thorough inspection.

GTphil

14-05-2012, 11:52

My first port of call would be to get the head pressure tested and properly checked for true/flatness.

Then I would be clamping the liners down with bolts and large washers and turning the engine over and getting a good look at all the liners, cracks can be very difficult to spot so take your time and double double check. Then look at the liner protrusion (how much they stick out of the block by as this is how the h/g clamps down over the liners. They should be stept slightly from one side to the other.

If all of the above doesn't turn up anything then I would be inclined to pull all the liners out and re-seal them also.

As for the cam followers, again they can look perfectly flat but actually not be, get them checked by the engineer for TRUE also.

Those close up pictures of your gasket could do with being a little more close up of each cyliner if you get what I mean, still difficult to tell from the pictures alone.

gttjames

14-05-2012, 15:37

thanks for replies - was wishing it was just the gasket. I think this may be alittle to in depth for me with a broken hand at the moment, undoing the head bolts was a challenge lol. Anyone want to lend a hand to get me going in the right direction, food/beer/travel catered for :laugh:

which should i do 1st get head checked or check piston/liners?

GTphil

14-05-2012, 16:16

Clamp the liners down and check the liners as much as you can (because this is free) then get the head pressure tested and checked then if that doesn't throw anything up take the liners out and inspect/re-seal.

Worth checking the liner protrusion also as this is free ;)

gttjames

14-05-2012, 20:29

ok so 1st using any bolt that will fit use a washer to clamp liners down, then turn engine over to view all bores. It doesnt matter turning engine over with head off does it as camshaft isnt in the head?

GTphil

14-05-2012, 20:39

I just use bolts with large washers make sure they are all clamped down fairly tight, no need to do em headbolt tight just nip them up so the liners don't move.

Use a bright LED torch to inspect the liners properly, starting with the suspect cylinder.

You will be fine turning the engine over as long as the liners don't move, if they do they will most likely disturb the liners seals then they will have to come out for sure

gttjames

14-05-2012, 21:29

gttjames

15-05-2012, 12:40

right well clamped down liners best i could, yerp it looks pikey. so checked bores especially no.2 where it looks like the water got in and cant really see anything. Then looked at gasket again and can see a very tiny mark, how big does the mark need to be on the gasket to be a problem?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/linerno2002.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/linerno2003.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/linerno2004.jpg

also this is waht my engine has allways sounded like with standard cam and piper 270 cam - i would ideally like to sort this aswell while here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBlvc1iI1rU

Brigsy

15-05-2012, 12:43

Did you measure the head up in the end?? I wouldnt look into it too much, clearly the h/g has let go on cyl 2.

Ive hasd this happen to me in the past, misfire on startup and using coolant, was down to poor tune and det.

gttjames

15-05-2012, 13:04

Dave Reed

15-05-2012, 14:11

I measured myself more accurtley and got 73mm will confirm this with some verniers though. Well thing is i dont want to put it back together and be in same situation 100miles down the road. But doesnt appear to be any liners cracked so shall i measure head and if ok go for it? new hg and bolts.

Also anyone got any ideas on the nocking noise iv allways had??? thanks alot

The mark will only be very small.. It'll be a little indent as I said further up the post.. i'll try get a pick of mine when I get home tonight...

that knocking to me sounds like a piston slapping around in the bore.. Could possibly be a broken ringland.. Or maybe a small end.. Sounds like you need to strip the whole motor down for further investigation tbh :( at the end of the day, if all ok you can just bang it all back together.

R5MJH

15-05-2012, 15:01

The mark will only be very small.. It'll be a little indent as I said further up the post.. i'll try get a pick of mine when I get home tonight...

that knocking to me sounds like a piston slapping around in the bore.. Could possibly be a broken ringland.. Or maybe a small end.. Sounds like you need to strip the whole motor down for further investigation tbh :( at the end of the day, if all ok you can just bang it all back together.
I totally agree the bottom end sounds quite terminal and needs stripping right down boss

gttjames

15-05-2012, 15:23

When running it sounds more from the rocker area. Ok well i guess it all needs stripping then :( - or are they ok to run like this just abit noisey? never done anything this in depth should i try it myself or should i find someone to do the work for me?

So if i take pistons out how will i work out what the noise is:confused:

Next job is sump off yer? and then what, is there a guide anywhere. Thanks for all your help so far

Dave Reed

15-05-2012, 15:37

The problem is that we are all trying to diagnose your problems with pics n videos.. Things sound a lot different in the flesh.. The reason I say it sounds more piston/bearing issue is the rattle on the downward rev motion, top/tappets tend to make a constant tap tap tap sound (if you get what I mean)..

Also if your not sure on what your doing I would seek expert advice.. It is possible to build an engine using a Haynes book of lies, but youll never have the experience of say someone who's builds engines for a living..

A short block rebuild with someone else doing the work should cost no more than 7-800 notes.. This would unculde new liners, pistons & bearings etc.. I always say do it properly n do it once!!

There are a few good people on here who have worked around these cars/engines for a long time...

Markey Mark (BD)

15-05-2012, 16:24

Personally mate first thing i would do is have that head pressure tested, i get sneeky suspision it might have issue with it. If all comes back ok then i would look into striping the block down but don't do it if you don't need to, worth checking everything else properly first

I did read somewhere you trying to work on engine with broken hand, if you get stuck or need someone to do it for you i'm more than happy to build you a bottom end for you to get you on road quickly ;)

Tony Walker

15-05-2012, 21:53

Its not a massive amount more work to take the pistons out and replace bearings and piston rings, worth it imo. If the sounds definetly the rocker area take a look at the rocker cover incase it was overtightened and one of the arms touching the cover?

gttjames

15-05-2012, 22:29

thanks again for replies i will check rocker cover for marks, either way i think il have to get the head checked so i will do that next, do you have to remove water pump, manifold, etc or can it be done with this in place and what should it cost?

And mark cheers i may need to take you up on that offer.... As think it will be a little to in depth for me, and i dont want it off the road ages again. Been off the road 2years get it mot'd and taxed last month and now this, need to be driving it

gttjames

23-05-2012, 16:02

update on this. Took the head to be pressure tested - as expected all ok.

I have looked more online into liner protrusion and my haynes, it states minimal liner protrusion to be 0.02mm to 0.09mm - smallest feeler blade i have is 0.03 and that wont slide under any with a flat edge. it just about goes under number 4 but the rest look flush with the block. So im guessing this is my issue.

Do the liner seals perish/flatten - will new liner seals sort this or do i need a new block? Where should i go from here?

cheers

Mart

23-05-2012, 17:31

Liner protrusion is only important when fitting new liners, and even then, some people don't bother & just fit them any old how.

I'd go with the advice given in post 20...

gttjames

23-05-2012, 20:50

Liner protrusion is only important when fitting new liners, and even then, some people don't bother & just fit them any old how.

I'd go with the advice given in post 20...

I am going to remove engine and strip bottom end. But the more i look into liners the more im worried. And im still trying to work out where its failed and surely if the liners are flush with block there will be minimal clamping force on hg? and i will have problems again soon. This is a message i got from bob at cgb

'The liners all need to sit above the edge of the block by 0.02mm - 0.09mm but all need to be about the same height. If three sit at .09mm higher than the edge of the block and the forth sits at 0.02mm or lower (ie level with the edge) then the lower liner will not gain a good seal with the gasket. Therefore you will not see any failure in the gasket like in your situation.

When we rebuild engines - 60% of the blocks are scrap because they are either cracked (due to the original brackets not being used) or because the area where the liners sit has become corroded and the liner either rocks side to side or no longer sits at the correct height. Before the engine was stripped the base of the liner will be surround by 20 years worth of corrosion and so will seal OK but once the liners are disturbed you may find problems - you can see by the above measurements the tolerances are very tight and I can see why peoples engines seem to fail over and over again.'

gttjames

01-06-2012, 18:35

Ok so got hold of a craine and got engine out, stripped it down.

Crank has marks on it, as do the shells - could this be the tappy noise i was hearing and mistaking for tappet noise?

Pistons look ok to me, im going to put new rings on anyway. What else do you check, con rod to piston moves ok does anything here need replacing? I will do shells on bottom of con rods anyway.

Liners look ok to me, cannot see any cracks, allthough could do with a hone i will get done while there out. Liner seals look streched - none are broke though.

So question still is where has the water got in? Head has been checked and ok, hg looks good, liners look good, piston rings look good, no broken liner seals?

The liners didnt protrude - can the liner seals go flat over time and maybe then this has allowed water past the hg? So new liner seals may give me some protrusion and sort it?

I think it may even be the rad, can they crack from oil cooler to rad? Can a radiator shop check this for me?

Any help im gratefull for, cheers guys

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5002.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5003.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5004.jpg

Will this clean up ok for liner seals?
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5005.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5006.jpg

Crank
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5007.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5008.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5009.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5010.jpg

Corrosion marks on outside of liner, doesnt go through to inside though
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5011.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5012.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5013.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5014.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5015.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5016.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5017.jpg

gttjames

02-06-2012, 22:47

Anyone? :)

chris

02-06-2012, 23:25

You need to have the head pressure checked and skimmed (if it needs it) and yea its not immposible the rad could of cracked i take theres oil in water or is there water in the oil ?

R5MJH

03-06-2012, 12:44

was the tappets ok before the 270 cam was fitted??was the knocking noise there on std cam? im just in the process of buiding a complete new c1j for the boy, knocking could be anything have you checked play on all piston/conrods as they dont have small ends? maybe old hg just had it time mate id check all parts 100% replace if needed then get a blue meillor hg set, check afrs etc, make sure there more than 73mm on the head too

gttjames

03-06-2012, 19:27

chris - post 37 - had head pressure tested all ok.

And the coolant tank when to minimum so water went in with the oil. Can radiotor places check the rads easily?

Tappet noise has been there since day 1 with standard cam - did valve clearances and was abit better - same noise with 270 cam

Well im considering just putting it all back together with new....
all shells/bearings/thrust washers
liner seals
piston rings
new hg
oil pump
and just hope its all ok

r5mjh where am i looking for play on piston/conrods? In the piston where the conrod attaches to piston? That moves side to side isnt this normal?

gttjames

03-06-2012, 19:36

Also i cleaned up the liner's and where they seat in the block, and put them all back in place and i can get liner protrusion witohut seels - i thinik when i clamped them down to turn engine over i must of clamped them down to much. Just dont want to put it all back together and have issues again as i ight be missing something that someone else wont.

Also pistons have on them '52047E ' are these oe renault? As would suggest bottom end never been apart?

Tony Walker

03-06-2012, 19:50

you cant really clamp them too much, they get clamped to circa 70nm when you tighten the head bolts.

gttjames

03-06-2012, 20:42

you cant really clamp them too much, they get clamped to circa 70nm when you tighten the head bolts.

So from previous searches on the boards iv read to put liners in without seals to check protrusion. When i place them in the block how do i tell how far to push them down?? to check theem

Tony Walker

03-06-2012, 21:57

Till they bottom out, this is how you will know if a liner is too low.

gttjames

04-06-2012, 18:30

Oh right:( So if i put liners in (it says in previous threads iv searched to check them without seals fitted as doesnt make much difference) so if i fit them and place a block of wood over them and tap them down and there flush with the block? This means its no good, so what causes this, new liners or new block? Sorry for all the questions just im eager to get it rebuilt, and no point spending hundreds on new gaskets and parts to rebuild it and it fails straight away.

R5MJH

04-06-2012, 18:39

side to side is fine any other movement mite mean noise by your list i think it will be fine doing what you list id still double check piston movement boss

Tony Walker

04-06-2012, 20:13

Ablock of wood is no good, your measuring very fine tolerances and should be measured with an engineering/machined straight edge and feeler gauges.

gttjames

04-06-2012, 20:33

Ablock of wood is no good, your measuring very fine tolerances and should be measured with an engineering/machined straight edge and feeler gauges.

sorry i havnt explained properly....

Iv trial fitted the liners without seals, using a block of wood on top of them to not damge them iv taped them down, but if i tap them down fairly hard, i get no liner protrusion. I measure this with a metal rule, and feeler gauges. I only use the block of wood to lay over top of liners and tap on block to seast the liners

Tony Walker

04-06-2012, 20:45

how low do they sit?

gttjames

05-06-2012, 20:09

cleaned up where liner sits today and liners abit, put them all in where they came from without seals and tapped them all home and flat.

no1 nearest flywheel protrusion - 0.002/0.003
no2 - 0.004
no3 - 0.004
no4 - 0.002/0.003

Haynes manual says they should be stepped down so that the liner with the least protrusion is no4?

Well i have liner protrusion so im thinking im just going to order new bits and go for it. List i have so far is
have crank checked
new piston rings
hoon liners
thrust washers
big end shells
main shells
oil pump refurb kit/new oil pump? is the refurb kit ok to fit?
new gasket set bottom end and head, blue hg, high tensile bolts
and obviously coolant, oil, filter
head checked - done

anything iv missed?

Tony Walker

05-06-2012, 20:53

when refurbing the oil pump you'll find the face that bolts to the housing and contains the pump internals will be worn with scoring marks, get this machined flat or, with some fine sandpaper a little oil and a machined flat surface hold the housing flat on to it and work it round keeping the housing flat.

gttjames

06-06-2012, 14:49

FOUND PROBLEM

Well just out in garage cleaning bits and getting list together of seals i need etc, thought id have a closer look at corrosion on liners, wire brushed the outside on the corrosion marks, put some brake cleaner there and it leaked through to inside. BINGO!

you can just see the corrosion in this pic below

In put on liners please guys? 2 out of 4 look pretty corroded but im thinking just replace them all. The options available are 4 new liners from cgb, or i have a spare block here which had new liners in when it was built, its been sat so therel need a hone, but providing they clean up ok am i ok to use with my pistons (new rings will be fitted) and what do i do just arrange them in order like it says in haynes?? cheers

so glad iv found the actual problem, or would of rebuilt for it to still be leeking

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5011.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/sr50james/bottomend5010.jpg