£££+ideas=speed

[Red October]

right guys ive got about a grand to spend on increasing my bhp and not much in the way of ideas of modding my R5 :rolleyes:

the car is A1 mint all round with no signs of deterioration whatsoever so its no gamble tuning up the engine.

ive currently got:
Uprated pistons and liners
Lightweight fly wheel
Volvo 480 gearbox+ clutch
Hybrid T25 turbo
Uprated pace intercooler
Ported and polished cylinder head
Rejetted carb with large VENTURI (wideband setup)
Custom big downpipe with wideband sensor
Full stainless decat system with 3" powerflex exhaust
Samco boost hose kit
Large Forge dump valve

the car is pretty fast and never been dyno'd but considering i only drive it once a week the reliability issues of running big boost wouldnt be a problem:)

the only problem i can see is that the head has clearly been skimmed a few times hence the reason im at 14-16psi of boost.

cheers rtocers i look forward to ideas:agree:

[SirSamuelOfBuca]

480 engine with custom 285 cam
And a gt2560r

Grand spent 230+bhp

[Red October]

480 engine with custom 285 cam
And a gt2560r

Grand spent 230+bhp

cheers bruca, although a engine change would appear the way forward, Mr insurance man definatley says no!:cry: points definatley dont make prizes:sad2:

maxing the c1j out is the only option for at least 24 months, run it until it explodes the ill go down the 480t route.

[Tony Walker]

if compressions a little higher then upping boost alongside mapable ignition would poss be your best and safest bet?

[Red October]

if compressions a little higher then upping boost alongside mapable ignition would poss be your best and safest bet?

cheers Tony, how can i raise the compression? cams/pistons?
Also how much should i be looking at moneywise and what kind of power figures would said mod plus the other mods achieve?

[Tony Walker]

i meant with the head being skimmed. The power would come from safely upping the boost pressure with some fueling mods(v cheap) then safely tuning ignition timing with a mapable ecu scoffs offering for power and peace of mind.

[Tony Walker]

i think scoffs got something available around £5-600?

[SCHWARTZ]

Free mods first if its higher comp is retard the timing by knocking the tdc sensor foward a bit. with a grand is prob go mappable ignition tho megajolt something like that. Also they didn't mind my capacity increase just wanted to know if it had any more power, luckily it didnt;)

[Red October]

thanks, am doing a little research on ecu's now. with my mods ive already got and a mappable ecu i should surely be around the 160-170bhp figures???

[Red October]

Free mods first if its higher comp is retard the timing by knocking the tdc sensor foward a bit. with a grand is prob go mappable ignition tho megajolt something like that. Also they didn't mind my capacity increase just wanted to know if it had any more power, luckily it didnt;)

cheers schwartz, could you elaborate on what you meant in the last sentance.

[Tony Walker]

you'd prob be able to run more like 18-20 psi which should be good to 180+

[Red October]

i think scoffs got something available around £5-600?

what do i get for my money mate and how much should i be looking at spending for the fit (if its too complex for myself)?

[Red October]

to be honest justin from stoke is doing all my work on the car and he's gonna provide me with a plan on what to do with my lump, a grand for parts and some for labour will hopefully go a long way:)

[Tony Walker]

To be honest you have the parts for more than enough power. no labour needed, you could even up the boost retard ignition a little sort the fueling for pennies and it would be around the 180. mapable ignition is just the way id go if i had £500 spare.

[Os8472]

Sell the intercooler, turbo and dump valve, buy a big front mount intercooler, T28 turbo and 285 cam, get the carb jetted to safely run 20psi and retard the ignition 200bhp+ no probs :agree:

[Red October]

Sell the intercooler, turbo and dump valve, buy a big front mount intercooler, T28 turbo and 285 cam, get the carb jetted to safely run 20psi and retard the ignition 200bhp+ no probs :agree:

cheers pal, i take it the above parts would cost about a grand? ive gotta be looking at £600 for labour aswel surely?

for the sake of 20 odd bhp between a mappable ecu and fueling @£5-600 against £1000-1300 for a bigger turbo etc is a difficult decision considering the latter has more big power options for the future.

safety or adrenaline.....hmmmmmmmm:laugh:

[Os8472]

All depends on how much u sell the old bits for and buying smart when it comes to the new bits and not paying tuner prices, eBay is your friend when it comes to finding cheaper parts.

Labour cost are a ball ache, changing the turbo and intercooler isn't difficult, the carb and cam are more fidderly though, see if u can find another member who's local to u who can show u what to do, the more work u can do yourself the more money u save.

people have been getting 200bhp+ with no problems for years without mappable ignition, yes I agree it has big advantages but I've been there with mine and for all the hassle involved u could go for full multi point fuel injection and squeeze more power out of your current setup while improving reliability, economy and drive ability.

At the end of the day it's gunna be your decision and there are lots of options. A good start would be to know how much your current setup is making and go from there.

[TNT ANDY]

I'd have to agree with Oli in some points, you're probably running out of the T25's map (what is the spec of this turbo?) for 200bhp if it's achievable, a good T28 + mappable and set up by Scoff will spend your grand, get you 200 bhp and a lot of good advice also.

[SCHWARTZ]

cheers schwartz, could you elaborate on what you meant in the last sentance.

All the insurance company wanted to know was how much power it makes. 200bhp 1.4. Costs the same as a 200bhp 1.7;)

[Red October]

At the end of the day it's gunna be your decision and there are lots of options. A good start would be to know how much your current setup is making and go from there.

im running the car at bluntys dyno day next month so ill know more then, such a long time to wait!

cheers for the info.:agree:

[Red October]

I'd have to agree with Oli in some points, you're probably running out of the T25's map (what is the spec of this turbo?) for 200bhp if it's achievable, a good T28 + mappable and set up by Scoff will spend your grand, get you 200 bhp and a lot of good advice also.

i think the turbo is a T25/T2 hybrid but it could be a full blown T25:confused:

what do you mean by running out of the map mate?

looks like im swinging towards a T28 with the mappable setup, but ill have to start T28 shopping and look to sell my T25.

[SCHWARTZ]

Every turbo has a map (where it makes best power) the t25 will be out of that and more boost would just make hot air and no more real power. Get a t28 and mappable ign could be done for a grand easily if you do it yourself.

[Romil Davda]

looks like im swinging towards a T28 with the mappable setup, but ill have to start T28 shopping and look to sell my T25.

t28 turbo. (http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?p=263419#post263419)

I think its a great deal... I would have picked this up but I have been told that the T28 is a bit laggy. (hence me holding out for a T25!)

Can anyone advise how we could get a T28 to sppool up quicker? Tubliar manifold? What cam is best? Does it matter what the psi set too?

[TNT ANDY]

t28 turbo. (http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?p=263419#post263419)

I think its a great deal... I would have picked this up but I have been told that the T28 is a bit laggy. (hence me holding out for a T25!)

Can anyone advise how we could get a T28 to sppool up quicker? Tubliar manifold? What cam is best? Does it matter what the psi set too?

The T28's fine with a .49 rear housing. I'm fully loaded at about 3500 - 3700 which is fine, and if your driving in anger you'll not be below those figures anyway. With the mappable ignition it still feels lively low down and even @ 70mph on the motor way in 4th it pulls well.

[Os8472]

The T28's fine with a .49 rear housing. I'm fully loaded at about 3500 - 3700 which is fine, and if your driving in anger you'll not be below those figures anyway. With the mappable ignition it still feels lively low down and even @ 70mph on the motor way in 4th it pulls well.

:agree:

[TNT ANDY]

i think the turbo is a T25/T2 hybrid but it could be a full blown T25:confused:

what do you mean by running out of the map mate?

looks like im swinging towards a T28 with the mappable setup, but ill have to start T28 shopping and look to sell my T25.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/compressor_maps

[Os8472]

I'll have a T28 with a .49 rear for sale in a couple of months

[Brigsy]

Why all the talk of retarding the ign at lower boost levels?? I run 25 psi standard ign standard comp no knock...

Cheapo ebay fmic, piper 285/valve springs & vernier, get a good standard height head, std venturi carb and up the boost on your current turbo. If its a full t25 with .49 rear it will do 200+hp... Few quid on gaskets and other bits a grand will be gone.

[tubbyG]

I'll have a T28 with a .49 rear for sale in a couple of months


talk to me :smokin:

[Red October]

:yeah:Well ive purchased andybond's T28 with a .49 rear housing fitted, 360deg bearings and a cosworth compressor housing tonight.:yeah:
I will be fitting soon and then sorting out a mappable ign, dependant on the results i may stump up for a piper 285/valve/springs/vernier kit if it helps the situation.

Also looks like the budget is going to get increased, just like the bhp:cool2:

BIG thanks to everyone who has pointed me in every direction and provide some great ideas.

Variety is the spice of life.................

[Mart]

Running a standard cam with a 'T28' is like smothering Nutella on your Sunday roast - Defo invest in a =>BP285 & vernier :agree:

[Red October]

Running a standard cam with a 'T28' is like smothering Nutella on your Sunday roast - Defo invest in a =>BP285 & vernier :agree:

Cheers, nice analogy!

Seriously though is the difference between my T25 and new T28 on my current spec engine going to be so vast in terms of bad performance?:confused:

Sorry for the newbie quiz but lend me some sugar, i am your neighbour:p

[Tony Walker]

id say cam before the ignition management, would probably be better money spent and more gain. i thought you allready had a different cam.

[Red October]

UPDATE :)

Well ive been working on the car with justin (ex ep motorsport) today and made a start on modifications to the lump :cool:

Fitted a full samco cooling hose kit, quietened the tappets, swapped the turbo and adjusted the fueling to suit...........also turns out the cams are uprated as she revs to 7,500~8k with no hesitation.


I enjoy the thump at 4k rpm and power of the T28 WOW!:eek:
I do not enjoy the lag associated with it:( (even though i was prepared for this occurance)

Ive decided to keep th full T25 in the shed because its a cracking turbo, faultless mechanically and performance wise. If red october visits the track this year it'll deffo be back on!

Boosts set to 1.7bar and fueling adjusted accordingly.

Only problems encountered are at full boost at 7.5k from 2nd to 3rd...........once 3rd is active at 2k from the upshift the build up is choppy and hesitant (takes 2secs to sort itself out) then is back to normal????? The engine has cut out twice aswel in this high rpm to upshift gear change scenario:confused:

I do not have a permament afr and other than the above scenario the car is running faultless.

Before i ring justin and cry like a baby :cry: i wonder if there is anything i can do myself to help the situation any suggestions would be appreciated:)

[DaveMayGTT]

If you paid Justin to set it up and its not right dont touch it yourself. If you touch it and it goes bang theres not a lot of come back. Explain the problem to him.

Maybe needle jet? I dont know much about fuelling

[Tony Walker]

thats alot of pressure not knowing what the fueling is like......

[Red October]

TBH we used afr to setup the carb this afternoon but the problems have only happened tonight when i decided to give it some (lots and lots actually:)) around town.

The car was sweet earlier at full chat when we setup. Once it spent a couple of hours with me the chopping started........ i may have inflicted damage to my reno :(

First thing in the morning ill give him a bell, it was a little late tonight considering hes got a baba.

mo power mo problems.......

[Tony Walker]

Imo thats too much pressure, especially without an afr to monitor. Im sure its great fun...... but i would turn it down for now. im sure 1.3-1.5 is just as much fun and a little safer.

[dangerous dave]

the lag of the t28 is like trying to palm one out while mums in the next room.. just when your about up to speed to give it some you have to slow down:(

it takes away the smiles per mile, but when you do hit da boost, you look like

http://www.petmd.com/sites/default/files/funny-dog-smile.jpg

[andybond]

Nearly died laughing at that picture

[Red October]

Imo thats too much pressure, especially without an afr to monitor. Im sure its great fun...... but i would turn it down for now. im sure 1.3-1.5 is just as much fun and a little safer.

Duly nothed tony, the engine how its built should handle this power as its handled 25~30 before in the past before the de tune. I get what your saying and will probably aquire a AFR asap for peace of mind.:)


the lag of the t28 is like trying to palm one out while mums in the next room.. just when your about up to speed to give it some you have to slow down:(

it takes away the smiles per mile, but when you do hit da boost, you look like

http://www.petmd.com/sites/default/files/funny-dog-smile.jpg

Never has a truer statement ever been made :)
A Focus RS's driver earlier tonight had a face like the dog but the only difference........ it was the other way round:laugh:

[Tony Walker]

:D Just think its better to be safe.... Its bogging down for a reason, either too much fuel fouling plugs or too lean.
Engines can handle alot of power when fueled and ignition timing is correct, if its not then it doesnt matter what engine you have it will die. But killing it will be massive fun :D killed mine against a porsche gt3 rs :D should never of gone through 4th.... :scared:

[Red October]

Nearly died laughing at that picture

our dogs have that face sometimes especially the day after theyve stolen left over salt and chilli ribs out of the bin from the chinese :laugh:

[Brigsy]

I dare say the bogging down is due to fuelling issues

[BluntyR5GTT]

sounds like needle valve might be required, also worth checking what size 2nd stage is. whats the actual spec of ur carb?

[BluntyR5GTT]

iv actually got a brand new 2mm needle valve at my house if u need one.

[LYNCHSTAR]

go and see scoff and get mappable ignition its a lot better with a big turbo mines like a different car well worth the money do away with the standard crappy AEI unit and distributer and cam.:)

[andybond]

iv actually got a brand new 2mm needle valve at my house if u need one.

If Ash doesnt want that Blunty - Ill have it off you.

[gttjames]

at what boost roughly will you need a 2mm needle valve? And where do you get them from, thanks

[Red October]

go and see scoff and get mappable ignition its a lot better with a big turbo mines like a different car well worth the money do away with the standard crappy AEI unit and distributer and cam.:)

Cheers, what spec did you have and how much did you pay???

[Red October]

sounds like needle valve might be required, also worth checking what size 2nd stage is. whats the actual spec of ur carb?

I dont actually know blunty, whatevers happening i think the fueling is far too lean. Ive been out "testing" in it today and at full boost at 6k in 3rd the engine is jerking badly with no acceleration even with your pedal to the metal. Am going to speak to justin tomorrow an if it turns out ive got to have my carb messed with i may need to buy that needle off you.:)

If its any consequence the carb was previously built for the full T25@15psi.

[Markey Mark (BD)]

at what boost roughly will you need a 2mm needle valve? And where do you get them from, thanks

You don't need a 2mm needle valve, i find they cause the bogging down between gear changes when using one
Way i got round this was fitting a surge tank in the back but also uping fuel pressure alittle will keep the bowl full while using standard neelde valve. I know Brigsy has done this and seems to be working well ;)

[Tony Walker]

I dont actually know blunty, whatevers happening i think the fueling is far too lean. Ive been out "testing" in it today and at full boost at 6k in 3rd the engine is jerking badly with no acceleration even with your pedal to the metal. Am going to speak to justin tomorrow an if it turns out ive got to have my carb messed with i may need to buy that needle off you.:)

If its any consequence the carb was previously built for the full T25@15psi.

Dont keep trying at these pressures it will cause damage. if its holding back on full throttle then somethings not right. 15 psi at 6k in 3rd should be flying never mind 24psi.
Turn it down to 15 then try it(15psi on a t28 flows more than 15 psi on a t25) roughly...
if it feels fine then gradually turn it up to the point you start to have issues, probably around 18-20 ish i would say. mine bogs from 2nd to 3rd sometimes if i dont change quickly.

[Hi 5]

the lag of the t28 is like trying to palm one out while mums in the next room.. just when your about up to speed to give it some you have to slow down:(

it takes away the smiles per mile, but when you do hit da boost, you look like

http://www.petmd.com/sites/default/files/funny-dog-smile.jpg

Forget the 5 I want the dog it's ace

[Red October]

UPDATE!!!!!:)

Well, ive found the problem and it was staring me in the face all along!:)

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/IMG_0410.jpg

The little blue stopper on the lobster outlet had fired off:laugh: it was staring me in the face all along and i never noticed it!!!

A little pic of the T28 beast.....
http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r600/RedOctober5/IMG_0412.jpg

[andybond]

Isnt that the overboost swith still connected ?

[Brigsy]

You should be able to fit an m6 bolt in the spare port on the carb top, mine had a bolt in blanking it off from new.

[Red October]

Isnt that the overboost swith still connected ?

Yes mate, its been turned up and adjusted to suit:)

[Red October]

You should be able to fit an m6 bolt in the spare port on the carb top, mine had a bolt in blanking it off from new.

The bung has been well and truly superglued on! If it happens again ill get one of the lads from work to TIG it off.

[Brigsy]

Put a zip tie round it mate, superglue is no good lol. You should have all the vacuum hoses ziptied on, when i pressurised my boost circuit up various vacuum hoses popped off at 1.5bar

[Markey Mark (BD)]

I'm just looking at all your vacumn hoses, it may be the pics but something don't look right with them just don't seem to be going to all the right places :confused:

[Red October]

Put a zip tie round it mate, superglue is no good lol. You should have all the vacuum hoses ziptied on, when i pressurised my boost circuit up various vacuum hoses popped off at 1.5bar

TBH your right, since ive gone up by .7 of a bar pipes all over the shop have been firing off!!!

The boost is unbelievable when it comes in, dont get me wrong i loved my T25@15psi for bouncing around town. But when it comes to mental straight line speed, only T28 will feed my addiction!!!!

Did notice a little whine from the turbo earlier but no smoke, sounded pretty gangsta tbh;)

[Red October]

UPDATE

Well what a month.......................about two weeks ago i was peforming a big overtake up a %10 1 mile gradient hill at full chat when....................B O O M !
More white smoke than a steam engine :( managed to get her home without boosting with about 20 stalls as the idle wasnt idle anymore!

Had the head removed and had it skimmed by justin who later informed me that my ported and polished head wasnt very ported or polished (crap 1 hour job) so he's now doing the biz on it for me (multi angled valve/maxed ports etc etc) so hooray for the head rebuild!!!:)

Fitted a innovate afr kit and got all the rest of the samcos to finish the bay off when the rebuild is complete, relocated the head back to its original home.
Blunty sourced me all the same carb needles and jets he is running on his carb so hopefully with the right setup i wont be too far behind him;)
Also aquired new uprated gaskets and bolts from mike 16v with some new water maifold plugs too.

Another good piece of mind for me is that when i got sold the car other than the illusive "ported polished head" the seller quoted a full bottom end rebuild............ thank god that part was right, when the head came off it became apparent after some messing that new perfect circles, liners, shells etc were fitted. 1 out of 2 isnt bad eh?

So as far as my first BIG blow up goes after 3 months ownership, well it hasnt dented my enthusiasm WHATSOEVER :) shame about the wallet!
Bit gutted i missed Bluntys WGT dyno day last weekend but obv the reno had other ideas!
Will have some pics up soon to document the work and roll on Friday/Saturday when we put the hunt back into red october:laugh:

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Question is what caused it to go bang in the first place, you need to know so it doesn't happen again

[Red October]

Question is what caused it to go bang in the first place, you need to know so it doesn't happen again

Too much boost coupled with having no permament AFR, either too lean or too rich.

[SCHWARTZ]

DET baby:wasntme:

[Red October]

DET baby:wasntme:

I am not enjoying DET, hopefully jutto's got some cans on friday so this wont be happening again. :agree:

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Never a good idea full boosting it if you have no idea what the AFR's were or hadn't had carb set up for it, lesson learnt we all been there ;)

One thing will say, see you got a 'large venturi' carb on there. I'd be swaping that back for a standard sized venturi when doing the carb