Has anyone done full EFI upgrade for c1j?

[chipis]

hello, i have read a lot of forum threads but didint find no one who has updgarded his c1h engine to efi system. Maybe anyone know where i could find information like "How to" step by step with parts required for it?

[James5]

Quiet a few peeps have done this to name a few

Dave Reed,
Philr5t (in progress)
Glenn aka Hi5,
harri,
OS8472

[Harri]

I'm one of them.

Your main problem will be finding / manufacturing suitable intake manifold. After that it's all quite straightforward.

Scoff can help a lot regarding sensors, choosing parts, wiring and ecu.

[Os8472]

Hi Chipis

Reguarding efi on a c1j, there are many different ways to do it, this is a basic list of parts you'll need

Efi inlet manifold (there's a chap on here does them)
ECU and wiring loom (Emerald, Adaptronic and Megasquirt seem to be popular
Trigger wheel (get a 36-1 wheel as all ecu's will recognise that pattern)
Injectors (size depends on your target power)
Fuel pump (Bosch 044)
Various sensors (air temp, water temp, crank position, tps, MAP sensor are the minimum)

[Os8472]

This chap for the inlet manifold

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=349

[Big Steve - Raider]

While we're talking about this, what does EFI actully improve on a C1J?

Does it make:
MPG better
Hot & normal starting better
Higher power

Etc?:scratch:

[BluntyR5GTT]

it certainly improves mpg from what iv seen steve, id imagine power will benefit somewhat especially in the lower regions of the rev range.

[Logg]

While we're talking about this, what does EFI actully improve on a C1J?

Does it make:
MPG better
Hot & normal starting better
Higher power

Etc?:scratch:

-No more carb Freeze.
-No issue with fueling for over 240bhp.
-True in car adjustable boost with out the car over fueling on low boost setting.
-Also there would be more people able to tune the engine as most tunes don't have the foggiest about our carbs.

[chipis]

I see there are some people doing it. Maybe they have uploaded any pics with description about their job going upgrading efi?

[benj88]

Thinking about doing this to my 5 one day. How much does it roughly cost?

[allanr5gtt]

ms motorsport did one i think and maybe bbpt did one aswell

[Matt Cole]

I did it years ago on an omex and my own manifold.

Caught fire!:cry:

[philr5t]

My efi project is almost complete mate and I'm just waiting for pics now so as soon as I get them I'll upload them for you to see there are another few good efi conversions done at the mo take a look at hi5 glens his is looking proper sweet

[Alastair]

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=1366

and unfortunately all my build thread pics have been jumbled up and there are loads of random ones in there - not sure what has happened...

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2403&page=3

[Tony Walker]

Safer tuning no more carb emptying via whatever reason, no more detonation issues. MPG improvements will save the cost over a year or so depending on mileage.

[Dave Reed]

Most importantly, i think is the improved driverbility, even in a highly tuned motor like mine, it drives great now I've gone over to EFI.. Can't believe I messed around with the carb for so many years!!

Your main challenge will be the the inlet mainfold, but as mentioned above a few people on here make them (Big jim and Micheal T), Scoff http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/ (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/) is your man for all the other bits, ie trigger wheel, coil pack, leads, sensors, ECU etc.. He also knows his stuff, and is a very helpful/nice guy too, which is hard to find these days...

Here's some pics etc form when I was doing mine last year;

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=22420

[sega]

Don't know iff this is a ''full" efi upgrade but this is the one i'm running on my current 5 and the same as i had as on my previous 5. These have been running around here for 4 or 5 years. We can have them setup by fastchip so this probably isn't interesting for the uk.
There is a lot more power on lower boost levels, better driveability, starting, mpg,..
On the negative side you have more electricik components in your car so more things that can break down.

[Matt Cole]

mb carperformance tuning did an EFi kit for the 5gt. Not sure if they are still trading though.

[sega]

No they stopped. I've bought the stock and also the democar last month. Problem was long hours and making almost no money compared. And also people copying their produkts and selling them even with their brandname on ebay. I could still get an mb efi system normally.

[chipis]

I see on the http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/ that there are two options available for adaptronic conection.
1. basic distributor system http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/images/e420c_wiring_diagram_distributor.gif
and
2. wasted spark http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/images/e420c_wiring_diagram_wasted_spark.gif
which one connecting scheme should be used for c1j engine?

[Scoff]

I see on the http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/ that there are two options available for adaptronic conection.
1. basic distributor system http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/images/e420c_wiring_diagram_distributor.gif
and
2. wasted spark http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/images/e420c_wiring_diagram_wasted_spark.gif
which one connecting scheme should be used for c1j engine?

Hi, you can use either type. With the distributor you could use a Clio 16v F7P coil unit, then you do not need an "ignitor" or coil/ignition amplifier. The second diagram uses a wasted spark coilpack, so then you can remove the distributor like a modern car.

[chipis]

I see, so right now now im trying to get into efi upgrade requirements. I have written the list what do we need to upgrade c1j to efi on the basis of adaptronic scheme http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/images/e420c_wiring_diagram_wasted_spark.gif
1. Manifold
2. Throttle body
3. Fuel rail
4. Injectors
5. Coolant temperature sensor (in the head instead of blanking plate from the gearbox side)
6. Air temperature sensor (not a must, fitted before turbo intake)
7. Fuel pump (ford cosworth fuel pump direct bolt on with modified or changed fuel lines)
8. Fuel pump relay (any standart high current relay)
9. Wasted spark coil
10. Ecu
11. Throttle position sensor (depending on ecu)
12. Crank angle sensor
13. Trigger wheel for crank
14, Rev counter (stock will fit)
15. Various wiring
16. Map sensor
17.New spark plugs
18. Modified fuel rail.
19. knock sensor and afr gauge is needed during ecu maping

Have I missed anything?

[steer from the rear]

i wouldn't worry about a air temp sensor :agree:

[Harri]

From my experiences:
a) you should source cosworth fuel pump which can be fitted directly to new fuel lines (they need to be replaced partly at least) any std relay which is rated for right current should do.
b)depends at your ecu, check the wiring instructions before choosing tps
c)air temp is not necessary but it should be before turbo. I installed coolant sensor in the head where there's normally blanking plate, quite easy to replace with your own plate. Its the one located in the gearbox side
d)depends, you can map the car with dyno to run without afr, but you probably need wb-afr when mapping anyway. I originally had narrowband afr intalled just to adjust idle which is needed to pass the mot. Afterwards I changed to AEM WB kit since I needed adaptive adjustment for my flexifuel conversion. Same thing with knock sensors, they're not needed if the mapping is done right. Tuners have various ways of listening knock when mapping cars. I use knock sensor but it's not allowed to give any advance compared to my mapped results it can just retard the ignition if needed.
e) adaptronic can be wired to feed the original rev sensor so you don't need anything extra.

[chipis]

Harri thanks for useful answers. by the way diditn we forget fuel pressure regulator in the line? :)

[Woznaldo]

i wouldn't worry about a air temp sensor :agree:

Why not? I'd say that it is very important on EFI, especially on a turbo'd motor where the act of compressing the air, heats it substantially. An intercooler will cool that air but it will still be warming than an equivalent NA set up.

Temperature effects air density and therefore the true amount of air being consumed by the engine.

I'd say that for calculating the required fuel you would need:

Coolant Temp (CLT) Sensor
Inlet Air temp (IAT) Sensor
Crank Position Sensor (VR, Hall, Optical)
Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor

Mass Air Flow is not required if you are using MAP and IAT Sensors.

[Scoff]

Why not? I'd say that it is very important on EFI, especially on a turbo'd motor where the act of compressing the air, heats it substantially. An intercooler will cool that air but it will still be warming than an equivalent NA set up.

Temperature effects air density and therefore the true amount of air being consumed by the engine.

I'd say that for calculating the required fuel you would need:

Coolant Temp (CLT) Sensor
Inlet Air temp (IAT) Sensor
Crank Position Sensor (VR, Hall, Optical)
Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor

Mass Air Flow is not required if you are using MAP and IAT Sensors.


That's a common misconception with standalone EFI :) A lot of facotry management uses a temperature sensor in the boost run somewhere, either in the manifold, plenum, etc. 9 times of out 10 they are useless for standalone and I usually won't even bother connecting it.

As you say Woz the charge temperature varies a lot between non-boosted and boosted conditions. Charge temperature will almost instantly come up from, let say 20 deg to 30,40 or 50 deg as soon as the turbo is made to work. (Maybe you'll need to tweek those values for Aus :) ) Now, the factory temperature sensor is nearly always a thermistor. A big slow thermistor, like all IAT's. If you use that sensor to trim the fuel in a standalone it can have horrible effects. Imagine how it would go: The engine boosts, IAT reads a mild increase in temperature as it begins to detect the change. The engine continues to boost on a track say, for a few minutes of hard use. The IAT finally warms up to the real value and reports a big increase in charge temperature. Now your trim table is going to pull fuel out, right when you don't want it to, because the chances are that the engine was mapped when the IAT was reporting a low temperature. Even if the tuner pushed the engine until the IAT read right then the result will be an overly rich mixture once it cools again.

They're especially useless when they're in a manifold, that gets hot if the engine's shut off after hard use, then the sensor gets stinking hot and plays havoc with the fuel trim the second you start up again.

Any OEM that has a temp sensor in the boost tract tends to look at that sensor very little and will have almost no effect on WOT fueling.

Standalones want the sensor to be installed before the turbo, in the air filter pipe, and the majority of people doing conversions overlook this. They follow the factory trend. The standalone wants to see ambient temperature, the real "inlet air temperature". With that you can do some usefell tuning but even then you wouldn't trim the fueling or timing by more than, say 5 percent at any point in fear of the sensor dieing and reporting a wildly innacurate value.

For instance it's better to run closed loop lambda control. If you run closed loop then you can safely forget about IAT. If it's a race car then you can safely forget about IAT since you're not going to be too fussed about getting to stoichiometric.

[Scoff]

I thought I should copy the reply I did for Chipis here so that anyone else interested in EFI has an idea of what is involved. It isn't a sales excersise :D Although it might save me from typing it out 3 times a week when people ask me "whats involved with EFI" :)

--------------
Hi Darius,

I just received your email too, about your Renault 11 turbo, so I will reply here to all questions.

I will write a list of parts that I think you will need, and I will price the ones that I have in stock and that I can offer discount on:

1) ECU - I am a big supporter of Adaptronic engine management, it is used a lot with Renault turbo engines (many C1J's use them, and F7P 16v and F4R, and more). The basic model is called e420d, here is the desciption for it:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=248 (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=248)

The cost to RTOC members is £550 GBP. This includes a 2m bare (no plugs) loom. For an additional £130 I can convert the loom in to a full plug in type loom so that you only need to connect a few wires, like ignition live, battery live, fuel pump live, tachometer wire and earths. All plugs and relays will be included with the loom.

2) Crank angle sensor kit - Using a "36-1" pattern trigger wheel on the crank pulley is the easiest way. Unfortunately I do not know of many ECU that will work with the 44 tooth C1J flywheel pattern so a trigger wheel must be used. It must be welded to the crank pulley and to the crank hub so that it can not slip. The timing must remain the same and must not move in time. I make a trigger wheel kit for the C1J, see here, it is £60 to club members:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=126 (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=126)

3) Map sensor. The Adaptronic ECU has a 4 bar map sensor built in, so you do not need a seperate map sensor if you choose adaptronic. Otherwise I advise the use of a real Weber Marelli or real GM sensor. Do not use the cheap copy sensors, they have become very unreliable.

4) Coolant temperature sensor - you should install this into the metal plate on the end of the cylinder head, above the gearbox. A sensor like one of these:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=125 (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=125)
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=240 (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=240)

5) Inlet air temperature sensor - It is not very important but if you wish to use one then use a type like this:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=181 (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=181)

6) Throttle position sensor - Your manifold and throttle may arrive with a throttle position sensor. Normally they have 3 connection, or 3 wires. Any type is fine, the ECU works will all types. If the throttle does not come with a sensor then you must use a universal one like this:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=190 (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=190)

7) Ignition coil - You have a choice here. If you wish to keep the distributor then you can find and use a coil pack from a Clio 16v, 1800cc, F7P engine. They use a coil that looks similar to the C1J coil and it will bolt in the same place as the old C1J coil (AEI unit). The Clio F7P coil works good with Adaptronic. Or, if you wish to remove the distributor then you can buy a "wasted spark" coil pack which means that the coil has 4 outputs, one for each cylinder. You can remove the distributor completely. It must be a coil with built in ignition amplifiers, like this type:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=121 (http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=121)

8) Fuel injectors - I do not sell injectors sorry, but I can advise on some good types. The most common type is from the Saab 2.3L turbo engine, they are known as "Saab red" injectors, like this type, Bosch part number 0280 150 431:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAAB-900-9000-TURBO-350CC-350-CC-FUEL-INJECTORS-SET-4-34LB-HR-0-280-150-431-/110832546356?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19ce227234 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAAB-900-9000-TURBO-350CC-350-CC-FUEL-INJECTORS-SET-4-34LB-HR-0-280-150-431-/110832546356?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19ce227234)

These injectors are good up to 250 bhp or so. I have several Adaptronic ECU maps for cars I have tuned with these injectors so I could assemble a base map with the ECU so that you can start the engine and drive to your rolling road/dyno/tuner.

9) Fuel pump - Lots of options, but essentially needs to be an EFI pump (not a low pressure careburettor pump like the original C1J pump). Any factory 2L turbo engine with an external pump is probably going to be OK.

I hope that helps.

Regards, Chris
-------------

[Dave Reed]

That's a common misconception with standalone EFI :) A lot of facotry management uses a temperature sensor in the boost run somewhere, either in the manifold, plenum, etc. 9 times of out 10 they are useless for standalone and I usually won't even bother connecting it.

As you say Woz the charge temperature varies a lot between non-boosted and boosted conditions. Charge temperature will almost instantly come up from, let say 20 deg to 30,40 or 50 deg as soon as the turbo is made to work. (Maybe you'll need to tweek those values for Aus :) ) Now, the factory temperature sensor is nearly always a thermistor. A big slow thermistor, like all IAT's. If you use that sensor to trim the fuel in a standalone it can have horrible effects. Imagine how it would go: The engine boosts, IAT reads a mild increase in temperature as it begins to detect the change. The engine continues to boost on a track say, for a few minutes of hard use. The IAT finally warms up to the real value and reports a big increase in charge temperature. Now your trim table is going to pull fuel out, right when you don't want it to, because the chances are that the engine was mapped when the IAT was reporting a low temperature. Even if the tuner pushed the engine until the IAT read right then the result will be an overly rich mixture once it cools again.

They're especially useless when they're in a manifold, that gets hot if the engine's shut off after hard use, then the sensor gets stinking hot and plays havoc with the fuel trim the second you start up again.

Any OEM that has a temp sensor in the boost tract tends to look at that sensor very little and will have almost no effect on WOT fueling.

Standalones want the sensor to be installed before the turbo, in the air filter pipe, and the majority of people doing conversions overlook this. They follow the factory trend. The standalone wants to see ambient temperature, the real "inlet air temperature". With that you can do some usefell tuning but even then you wouldn't trim the fueling or timing by more than, say 5 percent at any point in fear of the sensor dieing and reporting a wildly innacurate value.

For instance it's better to run closed loop lambda control. If you run closed loop then you can safely forget about IAT. If it's a race car then you can safely forget about IAT since you're not going to be too fussed about getting to stoichiometric.


In reponse to the above Scoff... Why would you alter the fueling for high IAT? Surely you would take out some timing? That's what I thought all the OEM cars done..

[Scoff]

In reponse to the above Scoff... Why would you alter the fueling for high IAT? Surely you would take out some timing? That's what I thought all the OEM cars done..

Because cold air is denser than warm air Dave. The ECU wants to see inlet temperature, not charge temperature. With inlet temperature you can correct for ambient changes, hot days, cold days, all of this has a big effect on fueling usually more noticable at part throttle or idle. You might take timing out as well, I was really only replying to Woz's bit about fuel mixture.

[steer from the rear]

So really it's best to put the sensor in the air filter pipe work but it's totally irrelevant as by the time it reaches the cylinder it's been warmed up by the turbo cooled by the inter cooler then had some fuel added at some unknown temp.......... Thank god adaptronic doesn't need it! Praise the map sensor and throttle pot lol

[Dave Reed]

Because cold air is denser than warm air Dave. The ECU wants to see inlet temperature, not charge temperature. With inlet temperature you can correct for ambient changes, hot days, cold days, all of this has a big effect on fueling usually more noticable at part throttle or idle. You might take timing out as well, I was really only replying to Woz's bit about fuel mixture.


Yeah I no it's denser etc, just never knew they removed fuel, I always thought it was done on the timing side of things.. I guess I didn't really make it clear what I was asking lol.

[Harri]

Harri thanks for useful answers. by the way diditn we forget fuel pressure regulator in the line? :)

yeah, you should use std 3bar regulator, you really don't want to mess with adjustabe fuel pressure regulators. making fuel rail might actually be your second biggest problem after inlet manifold if you need something custom.

I also think that air temp sensor mounted before turbo might be useful when doing cold starts but generally I use closed loop or adaptive mode after cold phase.

[Woznaldo]

That's a common misconception with standalone EFI :) A lot of facotry management uses a temperature sensor in the boost run somewhere, either in the manifold, plenum, etc. 9 times of out 10 they are useless for standalone and I usually won't even bother connecting it.

As you say Woz the charge temperature varies a lot between non-boosted and boosted conditions. Charge temperature will almost instantly come up from, let say 20 deg to 30,40 or 50 deg as soon as the turbo is made to work. (Maybe you'll need to tweek those values for Aus :) ) Now, the factory temperature sensor is nearly always a thermistor. A big slow thermistor, like all IAT's. If you use that sensor to trim the fuel in a standalone it can have horrible effects. Imagine how it would go: The engine boosts, IAT reads a mild increase in temperature as it begins to detect the change. The engine continues to boost on a track say, for a few minutes of hard use. The IAT finally warms up to the real value and reports a big increase in charge temperature. Now your trim table is going to pull fuel out, right when you don't want it to, because the chances are that the engine was mapped when the IAT was reporting a low temperature. Even if the tuner pushed the engine until the IAT read right then the result will be an overly rich mixture once it cools again.

They're especially useless when they're in a manifold, that gets hot if the engine's shut off after hard use, then the sensor gets stinking hot and plays havoc with the fuel trim the second you start up again.

Any OEM that has a temp sensor in the boost tract tends to look at that sensor very little and will have almost no effect on WOT fueling.

Standalones want the sensor to be installed before the turbo, in the air filter pipe, and the majority of people doing conversions overlook this. They follow the factory trend. The standalone wants to see ambient temperature, the real "inlet air temperature". With that you can do some usefell tuning but even then you wouldn't trim the fueling or timing by more than, say 5 percent at any point in fear of the sensor dieing and reporting a wildly innacurate value.

For instance it's better to run closed loop lambda control. If you run closed loop then you can safely forget about IAT. If it's a race car then you can safely forget about IAT since you're not going to be too fussed about getting to stoichiometric.

Well, there you go! Everyday's a school day! Thanks for setting me straight but, now you mention the relatively slow reaction time of the sensor it all makes sense. I've just bought an IAT sensor for my MS set up and was going to mount it on the side of the Plenum Chamber but now I think I'll go with your advice and mount it before the turbo.

The advice in the 'Wiring and Sensors' section of the original Megasquirt Manual say that both temperature sensors are essential, but maybe that's a generalisation that refers more to the Coolant Temp Sensor?

[Scoff]

Yeah maybe so. I think also it will be assuming that you have no other way to correct the fuel. If you had no lambda control then the IAT becomes more important but only if it's in the right place. :)

[Woznaldo]

Yeah maybe so. I think also it will be assuming that you have no other way to correct the fuel. If you had no lambda control then the IAT becomes more important but only if it's in the right place. :)

I had a look on the support forums and there were a few 'heat soak' issues with IAT placement but a bit of a mixed bag when it came to advice and nothing that was specific to forced induction.

There was a bit of advice that stated that you could set the amount of correction that the IAT gave which would then give you the ability to almost switch it off anyway.

[Harri]

in addition to placement before turbo, please note that if you use aluminum pipe where the IAT is mounted you'll propably still have quite lot of heat soak due to aluminum material properties. I machined nylon pipe to fit the sensor.

this picture is from my first setup but it has the nylon pipe installed before turbo:

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=5223&d=1266553374

currently I use the IAT sensor only to correct cold-fueling, I had to reserve the original IAT input in adaptronic to my E85 correction.

[BluntyR5GTT]

scoff also does a ready made kit over on efi-parts, you just need inlet manifold and injectors iirc?