View Full Version : R5 GTT 172 Project
Gttnutter
08-04-2009, 10:41
It does sound like an ecu problem like its just shutting everything down. As scoff said these are what the vw's do when the codes dont match from key to ecu
It does sound like an ecu problem like its just shutting everything down. As scoff said these are what the vw's do when the codes dont match from key to ecu
:cry:
I have pm'd rstuning via cliosport as they are a member but I will give them a call on my lunch break to get there advice's.
Soke to Paul @ RS tuning who advised the following - When i did your ecu i tested it on our PH1 to make sure it's working ok and the car ran fine. Not sure what to suggest really. Maybe try a TDC sensor on there?
smithsgtt
08-04-2009, 15:57
Don't suppose anyone knows the Renault part number for this with the low cable bit coming out of it as my Diaologys does not show this part?
i was on ebay any way james and found this for you mate
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Renault-Clio-172-tdc-sensor-and-loom-megane-scenic_W0QQitemZ190268849066QQihZ009QQcategoryZ104 10QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp 1638Q2em118Q2el1247
smithsgtt
08-04-2009, 15:59
hes good for anything you might need for the 172 mate ive used him a few times and he get everything just right
hes good for anything you might need for the 172 mate ive used him a few times and he get everything just right
Cheers for that but that sensor looks different to mine for a start it has the blue connector at the top (mins is black) and what is that cable coming out of the bottom?? Mine doesn't have that either:confused:
smithsgtt
08-04-2009, 17:12
Cheers for that but that sensor looks different to mine for a start it has the blue connector at the top (mins is black) and what is that cable coming out of the bottom?? Mine doesn't have that either:confused:
i have found out that the black ones are prone to failing and this replaces it if you email hime through ebay he normally answers up to about 10pm mate so hell help you out and tell you whats prob missing
Andrew Cooke
08-04-2009, 18:08
Here's a pic of one of the funnky 172 TDC leads
I defo have to top connection but my TDC sensor does not have the bottom cable / loom coming out of it??
that's a sensor and a bit of wire with a connector on it to allow you to splice into your loom, not a sensor with 2 connectors.
the 2 wires from the sensor should run direct to the ECU with no funny business.
that's a sensor and a bit of wire with a connector on it to allow you to splice into your loom, not a sensor with 2 connectors.
the 2 wires from the sensor should run direct to the ECU with no funny business.
Doh
On this what would you guys says is my ECU ignition live? (Just want to make sure I am not totally special:laugh:)
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/172%20conversion/IMG_4694.jpg
29 = ignition live
30 = pre-ignition live. Now, this might be a perminant live or if your diagram is to be taken literally then it may need to be non-powered once the ignition is ON. You could use a relay to do the switching. I suspect it'll be a perminant live though. It's something worth clarifying with the cliosport.net guys maybe :)
Or, you could test the theory by disconnecting no.30 wire the moment the engine fires to see if it continues running. Bit of a long shot I think!
Andrew Cooke
08-04-2009, 23:39
I have the ph2 wiring:
there is a constant live via a 5A fuse to pin 30
the switched live is via a 15A fuse to pin 29, this also goes to the fuel pump relay
there is a constant live via a 30A fuse to the 'ignition locking relay' and the fuel pump relay.
Andrew Cooke
08-04-2009, 23:41
do you have a PH1 loom to go with your PH1 ECU?
Ah, I wonder if his ignition relay isn't remaining powered up after cranking :)
Andrew Cooke
08-04-2009, 23:52
Ah, I wonder if his ignition relay isn't remaining powered up after cranking :)
correction, it's an 'injection locking relay' - item 238
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Cooke%27s%20stuff/Twingo/ecu%20wiring.pdf
be careful though, this is PH2, so all may not be as it seems....
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Cooke%27s%20stuff/Twingo/ecu%20wiring.pdf
I see, the ECU latches it on. Is the fuel pump driven off that too ? Andy, do you have a component key you could upload for that diagram ?
It would be worth watching what that relay does as the motor cuts out. If the relay cuts out immediately before the engine stops then either the power to the relay is vanishing or the ECU is deciding to cut the engine for some reason. If the relay cuts after the engine has died then I expect that is normal.
Andrew Cooke
09-04-2009, 00:23
I see, the ECU latches it on. Is the fuel pump driven off that too ? Andy, do you have a component key you could upload for that diagram ?
I'll repeat, this is PH2, so you may need to adapt for your PH1 (although this list seems to be Renault wide)
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Cooke%27s%20stuff/Twingo/REPORG.pdf
I assume you have linked out the wiring that normally goes to "927" inertia / impact switch too ? I don't know if that is part of the engine loom. I know that the phase 1 certainly has that switch and the car will not run if it is open circuit.
do you have a PH1 loom to go with your PH1 ECU?
Yes even though I have a phase 2 engine I managed to get hold of a phase 1 loom.
I assume you have linked out the wiring that normally goes to "927" inertia / impact switch too ? I don't know if that is part of the engine loom. I know that the phase 1 certainly has that switch and the car will not run if it is open circuit.
It is definatly bridged.
I even picked up a new TDC today from Renault thankful they had one on the shelf LOL I still have the same symptons.
Yet again I am going to go through all my wiring as I want to make sure it is 110% correct going to tidy it up this time as I go along.
Andrew Cooke
09-04-2009, 19:57
this should be a PH1 wiring diagram
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Andrew%20Cooke%27s%20stuff/Twingo/PH1%20ECU%20wiring.pdf
Like I said James it won't be TDC mate since it runs (and sounds OK) for that 1 second or so.
Did you have a listen to what that injector locking relay does ?
Standing in front of the car again checking everything over and I just can't see what the problem is
I have replaced the TDC (brand new from Renault), bridged the inertia switch, got 3 bar fuel pressure to rail, injectors are firing, fuel pump is on a switch and I have checked my wiring which to be honest isn't much required to get it running:scratch:.
Live wires
Battery to starter,
Battery to alternator,
Battery to 172 engine loom,
Ignition barrel to battery,
Ignition lives,
Ignition barrel to 172 engine loom,
Earths,
4 x engine earths,
the usual interior earth points,
As said above the fuel pump is on a switch (Temporary solution for the time being)
??????????http://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley5.gifhttp://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley5.gifhttp://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley5.gifhttp://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley5.gifhttp://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley5.gif
Anyone got any more suggestions before I set alight to it all or better still a helpline LOL:scratch::scratch:
Like I said James it won't be TDC mate since it runs (and sounds OK) for that 1 second or so.
Did you have a listen to what that injector locking relay does ? will take a look a relay now
Like I said James it won't be TDC mate since it runs (and sounds OK) for that 1 second or so.
Did you have a listen to what that injector locking relay does ?
I can here it clicking if I fiddle with the fuses
I can here it clicking if I fiddle with the fuses
Read what I was saying about what the relay should and shouldn't do :) If the relay cuts immediately before the engine stops then it means the ECU is killing the engine for some reason. What should happen is when the engine stops the relay should un-latch very shortly afterward.
If the ECU is killing the power then you really have to test the ECU on someone elses car to be sure it runs OK still.
Andrew Cooke
09-04-2009, 21:03
I can here it clicking if I fiddle with the fuses
check that the wiring to fuse 1 (30A) that supplies that relay is good, check the fuse is home (pop it in and out a couple of times).
Andrew Cooke
09-04-2009, 21:09
interestingly that fuse also protects the fuel pump, I recall you saying that wiring the fuel pump direct improved things, that too would also point to a poor connection somewhere in that area.
btw, you should have 3 bar fuel pressure, not 3.5, maybe your gauge isn't that accurate? anyway, it 's unlikely to prevent you from starting
29 = ignition live
Or, you could test the theory by disconnecting no.30 wire the moment the engine fires to see if it continues running. Bit of a long shot I think!
Have you tried this James?
Have you tried this James?
Yeah traced number 30 it is defo a permanent live it is part of the original 172 phase 1 loom that connects to the battery (not even fettled with that wire)
Read what I was saying about what the relay should and shouldn't do :) If the relay cuts immediately before the engine stops then it means the ECU is killing the engine for some reason. What should happen is when the engine stops the relay should un-latch very shortly afterward.
If the ECU is killing the power then you really have to test the ECU on someone elses car to be sure it runs OK still.
I have managed to find a bloke on the cliosport.net site whom will try my ECU on his car (its a clio phase 1 with 172 lump so like mine it will require the demobilised ECU to run)
Further update, had a 15 min play tonight to do some quick tests and tidy things up a bit and I found the following-
Fuel pressure to fuel rail 3.0bar,
Sparkies are firing with very good spark,
I then decided to take the fuel rail of tonight to make sure the injectors are firing to find that they were NOT firing this time???
I do defo think it is the injectors that have failed for the following reason the 172 standard Injectors I believe are Pico 250cc min @ 3bar 14.5 ohms (High Impedance). Now because I have used a modified alloy fuel rail from another car (Volvo Turbo) the standard 172 Injectors would not allow the alloy rail to be used (FPR fitment problems) so i had to source some injectors from a different car (Cossie). Cossie yellow spec (standard cossie injectors) Bosch 270cc min @ 3bar I have just found out that they run 3.5 ohms (low impendance).
So I reckon due to them being low impendance I cannot use in them in the high impendance injectors system of the 172 hence them not working properly everytime or if at all.
Anybody got some spare working injectors I could try pref 250cc min @3bar 14.5ohms??
i should have a 182 lump arriving at mine on friday. Im a little way up the road from you in croydon. Your welcome to give them the injectors from this lump a try.
just re-read your post. And im being a div. Can you not refit the standard fuel rail, injectors and fpr?
i should have a 182 lump arriving at mine on friday. Im a little way up the road from you in croydon. Your welcome to give them the injectors from this lump a try.
Cheers for the offer matey but in order for me to use the standard 172 / 182 injectors I will require a phase 1 172 fuel rail, fpr setup as the phase 2 setup which you are getting is different.
Let me think how I could possibly modify my setup non renault fuel rail to use the standard injectors as it may be possible if I can relocate the fpr.
just re-read your post. And im being a div. Can you not refit the standard fuel rail, injectors and fpr?
My engine is a phase 2 172 so in order for me to get it to work properly I would need the phase 1 setup, all I have left of my phase 2 setup is the phase 2 rail and 1/2 the fuel feed pipe no injectors.
Well no real progress todate (still not running but then not tried to fire her up yet) thanks to Ashy for the 172 injectors and Brigsy for a brass carb fuel feed which i have drilled and taped into my alloy T5 fuel rail to fit so I have been able to relocate the FPR of the rail all seems good so far. Got a slight prob with the rail in the standard 172 injectors, because the standard injectors are tiny compared to the Bosch type the T5 rail does not allow them to fit perfectly straight in the rail not run any fuel through yet so it may leak will have a play later to see.
Slight update unable to use the volvo alloy rail with the standard injectors due to the standard 172 injectors being tiny compared to the bosch type. I have therefore had to revert back to the phase 2 172 plastic fuel rail and modifiy it so I can use my FPR.
why cant you use the std 172 rail and FPR?
You seem to be over-complicating things??
why cant you use the std 172 rail and FPR?
You seem to be over-complicating things??
because I don't think there is an FPR in the clio rail - the pump does the regulation I think.
there is on the Mk1 172 engine, you're right the later ones don't have a FPR.
Could of leant you the rail too James... Let me know if you need it!
You don't want to be taking the risk with fuel rails and injectors that don't quite fit properly!! Trust me!
because I don't think there is an FPR in the clio rail - the pump does the regulation I think.
That is exactly why I will see how my mod goes if it doesn't work properly I will just buy the phase 1 parts from Renault
That is exactly why I will see how my mod goes if it doesn't work properly I will just buy the phase 1 parts from Renault
Did you see my post, one above your last one?
Did you see my post, one above your last one?
Nial your 172 rail does this have the fpr on it?
i have one that does and one that doesnt.
Andrew Cooke
19-04-2009, 21:39
I'm thinking that I might need to convert to the PH1 fuel rail/ regulator, it doesn't look like the 172 fuel collector will fit into my tank.
actually, is it possible to modify my rail to use the regulator?
i have one that does and one that doesnt.
Can I try it out please matey :cooter:
I'm thinking that I might need to convert to the PH1 fuel rail/ regulator, it doesn't look like the 172 fuel collector will fit into my tank.
actually, is it possible to modify my rail to use the regulator?
I'm not sure andy, I'll get a few pics of both types and upload them. THe ph2 172 rail has the FPR port and the outlet they are just blanked off! Maybe you could open them up and use then?
I'm not sure andy, I'll get a few pics of both types and upload them. THe ph2 172 rail has the FPR port and the outlet they are just blanked off! Maybe you could open them up and use then?
Ashy does your phase 1 rail have the Renault part number on it??
Andrew Cooke
20-04-2009, 18:43
Ashy does your phase 1 rail have the Renault part number on it??
it should be 7700107405, and PH2 7700112777
Andrew Cooke
20-04-2009, 19:54
James, I'm going to backtrack on my previous comment about not fitting the FPR ref pipe, it looks like the PH1 uses that pipe as the reg is on the engine, on the PH2 that pipe won't be used as the FPR is in the tank, the map must take each eventuality into account.
She is running at last, traced the wiring on the original 172 loom and I found the earth to the ECU to have a split in the cable sorted it out and she now idles. Only prob now is that the cam, tensioner has come loose:crap:
my modified fuel rail seems to be doing the job ok:coffee:
I will get a vid up but **** she is bloody loud with the powerflow sidey:cooter:
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/172%20conversion/th_MVI_5026.jpg (http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/172%20conversion/?action=view¤t=MVI_5026.flv)
great, so you don't need this FPR then mate? Saves me stripping it down and posting it off :)
Which injectors did you run it on in the end?
WHen you say cam tensioner what do you mean? The idler pulley? as you dont want the tensioner coming loose!!
Andrew Cooke
20-04-2009, 20:56
woot, now you're full of skills you can run up the motorway and get mine running :D
great, so you don't need this FPR then mate? Saves me stripping it down and posting it off :)
Which injectors did you run it on in the end?
WHen you say cam tensioner what do you mean? The idler pulley? as you dont want the tensioner coming loose!!
No won't need the fpr now cheers though ashy I am running the standard 172 injectors
Yeah the adjustable pulley has come loose looks like engine out to sort cam timing need to find my mot tools again :(
engine out ? bet you can jack it up enough with the n/s mount undone so that you can whip the cover off and sort it. glad it's running :)
I would like to thank everyone whom has given advice and parts especially to Ashy, Scoff, Andrew Cooke
many thanks
:cry:
engine out ? bet you can jack it up enough with the n/s mount undone so that you can whip the cover off and sort it. glad it's running :)
:cooter:
Will try that at the weekend
engine out ? bet you can jack it up enough with the n/s mount undone so that you can whip the cover off and sort it. glad it's running :)
Aye, easy enough, I've done mine with the engine in... :)
http://www.r4f1.btinternet.co.uk/dta/DSCF3160.JPG
http://www.r4f1.btinternet.co.uk/dta/DSCF3167.JPG
http://www.r4f1.btinternet.co.uk/dta/DSCF3172.JPG
http://www.r4f1.btinternet.co.uk/dta/DSCF3175.JPG
I do all mine with the engine in too, but I think james has the oe covers inplace, I don't know how awkward they will be to remove in the tight 5 bay!
Oh, but looks like you runt the covers to Ashy ? :)
Oh, but looks like you runt the covers to Ashy ? :)
Aye they are a bit fiddly but I don't even remember jacking the engine up to get them off.
Aye they are a bit fiddly but I don't even remember jacking the engine up to get them off.
I have got the cover off not much room but came out with some force:D
Need to find my cam timing tools now, I know i put them somewhere safe:rolleyes:
She is running at last, traced the wiring on the original 172 loom and I found the earth to the ECU to have a split in the cable sorted it out and she now idles. Only prob now is that the cam, tensioner has come loose:crap:
my modified fuel rail seems to be doing the job ok:coffee:
I will get a vid up but **** she is bloody loud with the powerflow sidey:cooter:
Well done mate! that's great news and a nice bit of detective work too !!! for a moment I thought I was going to beat you to it.. but as you sort yours my ECU fails :sad2: (it's on it's way to emerald as we speak)
I log onto this site everu night and the first thing i do is check to see if you've got it running!
Really pleased for you mate top work!
Matt Cole
21-04-2009, 22:39
Thank feck for that!:agree:
TURBO'D CLIO
21-04-2009, 23:38
Well done for finding that loose wire bud, I'm dreading my loom when it comes to it..
Gotta lay the volvo loom in with the clio loom and its gotta look good and be reliable for every day use..
Great work so far mate, can't wait to see your plans when u turbo it.. :coffee:
TURBO'D CLIO
21-04-2009, 23:43
Just one question?
How did you know what mounts to use, that rubber mount that sits just down from the drivers side strut top mount, Is that mount standard in all renault cars ?
Reason i ask is becasue i bought i rsi engine mount and top mount for my volvo 480 turbo lump to go into my mk2 clio, they havent arrived yet and im taking a gamble on the wing mount that rubber one..
Some people have told me i need to change it, others say thay are all the same and that the rsi mount will bolt straight on?
Any body got any ideas as to weather all these wing mounts are the same, they all look the same to me ?
The top mount in my photos was welded in, there is no top mount at all on an R5.
If you look at the volvo conversions that people have done on 5's they dont bother with the top mount so I wouldn't worry too much about it!
I haven't bothered with a top mount for my 172 conversion either - but then again I've no immediate plans to turbo it
Gttnutter
22-04-2009, 10:08
Nice one james really well done :agree:
I haven't bothered with a top mount for my 172 conversion either - but then again I've no immediate plans to turbo it
Same here I haven't bothered whilst I am running N/A form but with the future turbo conversion and the extra power i would defo go down the route of getting one welded on.
Nice one james really well done :agree:
Cheers Rich, just need to sort my timing out now.
Also cheers to everyone above for the comments I agree it is about bloody time it was running. At one point I was thinking both Andrew Cooke and Andrew Warren where going to overtake me LOL. Not bad considering I only spend a couple of hours a week on the car due to work commitment and a really moany Mrs's + the 3 kids.
I am quiet impressed with it as it is my 1st engine conversion. Just need to sort the timing out to get it on the road then it will be a case of just tidying it up, not sure if I should leave the bonnet black or get it sprayed Tungy?
Good work James:agree:
Id get the bonnet painted tungy to match myself:)
Gttnutter
22-04-2009, 13:26
Good work James:agree:
Id get the bonnet painted tungy to match myself:)
I didnt know you were tungy coloured brigsy :laugh:
will you be coming on the 29th james so we can all have a look under the hood
I didnt know you were tungy coloured brigsy :laugh:
will you be coming on the 29th james so we can all have a look under the hood
Rich, I very much doubt I will be there on the 29th but I will see what I can do with my time to try and get things sorted.
Fingers crossed I have now done the cam timing correct:scared: just got in from finishing it off not turned it over yet to see if ok.
Hope you didn't bend the valves :(
Be a right bummer if you have... Fingers crossed as i don't know how close the valves go to the pistons nor how much the belt was out when the tensioner came loose !
Hope you didn't bend the valves :(
Be a right bummer if you have... Fingers crossed as i don't know how close the valves go to the pistons nor how much the belt was out when the tensioner came loose !
They go slighlty onto he the top of the pistons. I keep thinking I hope I haven't bent the valves
Did you rent the tools or buy them? I'm considering buying the 3, but might change my mind when I find out the price of them.
I rented the tools from a bloke of the cliosport site Renault wanted around £200 for the kit i just couldnt justify spending that so hired @ a cost of £30 there are a couple of blokes who do this
TURBO'D CLIO
26-04-2009, 16:56
They go slighlty onto he the top of the pistons. I keep thinking I hope I haven't bent the valves
Wern't it still running thou when you noticed the belt was loose, im sure in a previous post you said you switched it off and noticed that the belt was slack ?
If it was still running then i reakon you might be ok...
Have you wound it over today to see if it starts ?
Remember to do a couple of turns of the crank by hand first to check all is in the correct place.. :agree:
Wern't it still running thou when you noticed the belt was loose, im sure in a previous post you said you switched it off and noticed that the belt was slack ?
If it was still running then i reakon you might be ok...
Have you wound it over today to see if it starts ?
Remember to do a couple of turns of the crank by hand first to check all is in the correct place.. :agree:
Not been out yet to start her up but I done 2 turns on the crank last night and all seemed good belt is now alot tighter will try later need to put the rad back in 1st
TURBO'D CLIO
26-04-2009, 18:48
Not been out yet to start her up but I done 2 turns on the crank last night and all seemed good belt is now alot tighter will try later need to put the rad back in 1st
Dont worry about small things like rad's lol, just get out there and fire her up it will be ok to run for a few seconds with no water then switch it off, were all waiting on the up date lol .. :D
P.S good luck :cartman:
Well I have checked and checked the timing and all seems good my markings all line up. Did try to start but battery bloody flat :(
TURBO'D CLIO
26-04-2009, 21:11
Well I have checked and checked the timing and all seems good my markings all line up. Did try to start but battery bloody flat :(
:disagree:... that's a bugger... Tomoz thou hey, deffo try tomoz suspense is killing me... :wasntme:
come on, you got it to run yet?
Driven it yet ??
come on !!
come on, you got it to run yet?
Driven it yet ??
come on !!
No not yet started it weather was to bad yesterday, tonight is the night to try and crank it over to get it running and friday will be the day she is fully road legal and I discover more problems when driving it:laugh:
fidos got a raider
28-04-2009, 12:55
No not yet started it weather was to bad yesterday, tonight is the night to try and crank it over to get it running and friday will be the day she is fully road legal and I discover more problems when driving it:laugh:
Yeah on the way down to mine
Yeah on the way down to mine
FAIL FIDO on the way to mine, YOU stand CORRECTED
fidos got a raider
28-04-2009, 13:25
FAIL FIDO on the way to mine, YOU stand CORRECTED
What so you can look out your bedroom window as you wont be able to move
What so you can look out your bedroom window as you wont be able to move
:cooter::cooter::cooter::cooter::upyours2::upyours 2::upyours::bla::bla::mart:
fidos got a raider
28-04-2009, 13:31
:cooter::cooter::cooter::cooter::upyours2::upyours 2::upyours::bla::bla::mart:
Just messing man hope all goes well
been home on my lunch break
Had a quick chat with Fido on the phone,
Unplugged Car battery from charger now full of juice,
Placed battery in the R5 and plumbed in,
Turned the ignition key after turning immobiliser off,
and yep you guessed it she cranks with either no spark or injectors not firing again (Still got fuel pump on switch at mo) LOL oh well will have another look when I get home from work. Just makes me laugh
It will be running by the end of the night:smashpc:
fidos got a raider
28-04-2009, 15:36
Bloody want to be
'kin 'el mate, will she ever run:crap:
Hope you sort it soon, don't want ot go to the classifieds & find it there (coz i'll have to buy it then :wasntme: )
I'll try to pop round later & have a nosey, what times good matey ??
'kin 'el mate, will she ever run:crap:
Hope you sort it soon, don't want ot go to the classifieds & find it there (coz i'll have to buy it then :wasntme: )
I'll try to pop round later & have a nosey, what times good matey ??
I will be out the front playing with the car from 7 matey so anytime from then onwards.
I will be out the front playing with the car from 7 matey so anytime from then onwards.
I bet Lauren wishes you'd have kept the C1J in there now, at least it moved now & again :cooter:
it's a live it's a live - fecking loud with the sidey
30amp fuse had blown :(
it's a live it's a live - decking loud with the sidey
30amp fuse had blown :(
yaaaaaaaaay yaaaaaaaaaaay yaaaaaaaaaaaay james bring it to mine friday
well guess what I have ****ed it again LOL
I seem to have melted one of the pulleys ????
Thankfully it is all timed up slipt the tools back on and all good need to get another pulley from Renault.
I'll get a pic up in a mo
Here's a pic of the pulley:scratch:
It's a little strange as the belt tightness is controlld by the tensioner pully which all markings are aligned as supposed.
Ashy, Scoff, Andrew please help
New Pulley according to my Diaologys - 77 00 108 626 PULLEY LA 42.76
The cam kit I used was new with new pulleys:(
I'm pretty sure there is a spacer that goes between the pulley and the cyl head, do you have that installed ? Without that it will lock solid against the head when tightened up.
looks to me as though you've put the pulley on the wrong way around mate. There is a spacer as Scoff says which sits into the bearing and holds the pulley away from the block. I think the pulley is offset (i.e. the bearing isn't central) so if it was fitted the wrong way around the pulley would touch the block and not spin.
I'll go have a look in the garage if i've got one!
I think ashy's on the money james, I usually slip that pulley off to remove the cambelt quickly and I remember I was carefull to keep the pulley and spacer in the right order. Looking at that picture shows the belt has cut through over to one side, it should have been running closer to the middle.
The bit that is sticking out in the pic is the spacer, but now you say that I may have put it on the wrong way I am now thinking **** did I put it on the wrong way but looking at in my hand it looks the same on both sides aparft from the spacer being on one side
This is it just before then I heard a funny noise and stopped the car immediatly
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/172%20conversion/th_MVI_5035.jpg (http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/172%20conversion/?action=view¤t=MVI_5035.flv)
I think ashy's on the money james, I usually slip that pulley off to remove the cambelt quickly and I remember I was carefull to keep the pulley and spacer in the right order. Looking at that picture shows the belt has cut through over to one side, it should have been running closer to the middle.
:cry::cry:
Have you guys got a closeup picture of your pulleys so i can see which way it should go on for next time:cooter:
Just been ot and had a look at an old 182 lump... You're right the pulley does fit either way round, and it looks in your picture like you've fitted the spacer so I'm not sure whats happened?
Heres a pic of the pulley and spacer
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=390&pictureid=6194
Heres a couple of shots of the pulleys in position...
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=390&pictureid=6195
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=390&pictureid=6196
You'll know when its on the right way because it'll spin :D :p
have you used the wrong spacer or something? In your photo it doesnt look like it protrudes past the pulley?
Looking at the pulley and spacer on a flat service and the spacer gives about 2-3mm clearance from a flat service to the pulley wheel itself, I am going to assume that I have fitted it inorrectly looking at the way the belt has destroyed the pulley
is the belt wrecked then?
is the belt wrecked then?
No the belt looks good it has rubbed some of the lettering of the top but that is it
heres that pic you sent me
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/CWB1_77large.jpg
Yeah thats how my engine looked when the Renault tools where in place and with pulleys and the belt attached, I am now thinking did the pulley spin? I don't remember it spinning freely!!!
TURBO'D CLIO
29-04-2009, 19:18
Yeah thats how my engine looked when the Renault tools where in place and with pulleys and the belt attached, I am now thinking did the pulley spin? I don't remember it spinning freely!!!
I would say you had the spacer on the wrong side and jammed the roller against the head, I've done a few and got the spacer on the wrong side... :p
No the belt looks good it has rubbed some of the lettering of the top but that is it
I'd be tempted to replace the belt aswell mate, might be damaged and just wear out quicker, £35 belt is cheaper than a head over haul with 16 new valves...
Can't beleave your luck dude, you thought u ****ed the timing but then it ran, now you have killed a roller and still NOT bent any valves... One lucky man.... good on you thou for seeing the funny side of it, better to be like that than stressing out as the problem get's greater lol ....
So what the plan of action now mate - any idea why it blew that fuse, possibly a short some where.. ?
Rob
Well many thanks to Ashy for the spare Cam pulley I have replaced the belt with yet another new one to be on the safe side. And I timed the car up again this time double checking then triple checking the pulleys and all seems good I have taken it for a quick drive around the block and all is good apart from my idle which seems a little high @ 2k if I adjust it 1 notch on the accelerator cable it goes to under 1k but stalls. I will have a play around and see what i can do but good news is that is bloody works.
Well many thanks to Ashy for the spare Cam pulley I have replaced the belt with yet another new one to be on the safe side. And I timed the car up again this time double checking then triple checking the pulleys and all seems good I have taken it for a quick drive around the block and all is good apart from my idle which seems a little high @ 2k if I adjust it 1 notch on the accelerator cable it goes to under 1k but stalls. I will have a play around and see what i can do but good news is that is bloody works.
Wahoo!! congrats mate.. I can't wait till I can say the same :)
Wahoo!! congrats mate.. I can't wait till I can say the same :)
Looking at your thread matey you are almost there.
The one thing I to like with my conversion is the keeping of the original clocks. I still need to wire up the coolant temp though
Yeah, I was wondering about that as I need to send the coolant temp to the ECU so what do I use to feed the gauge on my dash? ..short of fixing my laptop on the dash :)
I am just going to use the orginal gtt temp wires and splice into the 172 loom that provides the temp feed to the ecu somewhere. Probably easier to wire up and than standalone.
I am just going to use the orginal gtt temp wires and splice into the 172 loom that provides the temp feed to the ecu somewhere. Probably easier to wire up and than standalone.
so when you comming up then you homo sexual straight man (best of both ;) )
so when you comming up then you homo sexual straight man (best of both ;) )
:cooter:So that's why you want me over:laugh: you big gay polar bear
I am going to run the car locally tomoz to make sure all is good then i will make the journey to yours on thursday eve I fancy taking the back roads to yours aswell to get a feel for the old 5 aswell :burnrubber:
Thursday eve, ile put the waffle iron on, the coffee maker, and have plenty or party rings and bourbons:D:wasntme::laugh:
Thursday eve, ile put the waffle iron on, the coffee maker, and have plenty or party rings and bourbons:D:wasntme::laugh:
:agree: Sounds good I'll aim to get to you for 7ish if i am late give me a bell I would have prob broken down somewhere :laugh:
TURBO'D CLIO
05-05-2009, 19:36
Good work james, Glad you replaced the belt aswell just to be on the safe side...
So is it quick then or did ya just poodle round the block ? :)
It was only a poddle :ashamed:
TURBO'D CLIO
05-05-2009, 20:53
It was only a poddle :ashamed:
Never the less it moved on its own steam.. Good work matey :agree:
you wont be able to splice the Gt clocks into the 172 temp sensor mate. Best bet is to fit the Gt sender into the thermostat housing!
Glad its all running, you can adjust the idle on the throttle body mate, there is a grub screw in in behind the pulley on the TB. Using the cable to adjust the idle is the wrong way to do it.
Ashy.. does this mean I would need to run a separate sender if I want to see the temp on my clocks as well as feed my ecu (aftermarket)?
I'd better get another gtt water temp sender then.
Yeah I know about the grub screw but mine has been messed about with in the past and is mullered I am going to have to drill it out and use another bolt in it. In fact I have got the tb in my hand right now and am having a look at it whilst the mrs's is watching love actually.
the 172 temp sender for the dash is a 3 wire sender, Scoff will tell you what the 3 wires do. But your ECU will probably need a Bosch 2 pin type sender (which is what I use) they are the same thread so you can just swap them over!
If you want to retain the GT gauge then the best bet would be to weld a boss in the back of the thermostat and run the GT sender.
TB now sorted and can now adjust tb cam
TURBO'D CLIO
05-05-2009, 23:36
the 172 temp sender for the dash is a 3 wire sender, Scoff will tell you what the 3 wires do. But your ECU will probably need a Bosch 2 pin type sender (which is what I use) they are the same thread so you can just swap them over!
If you want to retain the GT gauge then the best bet would be to weld a boss in the back of the thermostat and run the GT sender.
One does temp gauge
One does temp warning light
Other is engine management
I split the clio wiring up and just nabbed the gauge wire and ran it right to my volvo lump, like you said you cant really use that sensor on your old clocks, u should be able to drill a small hole in the thermostat and put a tap down it and just screw in a r5 sensor single wire jobbie... :agree:
the 172 temp sender for the dash is a 3 wire sender, Scoff will tell you what the 3 wires do. But your ECU will probably need a Bosch 2 pin type sender (which is what I use) they are the same thread so you can just swap them over!
If you want to retain the GT gauge then the best bet would be to weld a boss in the back of the thermostat and run the GT sender.
How weird my ph2 engine had a two wire plug and it works.. well should I say the ecu reads the temp - I'll double check though
One does temp gauge
One does temp warning light
Other is engine management
Are you sure, ones normaly a sensor ground and ones +5v not sure about 3rd!
Are you sure, ones normaly a sensor ground and ones +5v not sure about 3rd!
The 3 wires are
Coolant temp warning light number 9 pin on ecu,
Coolant temp sensor input number 13 pin on ecu,
Coolant temp sensor earth number 73 pin on ecu
I also need to get an engine speed signal to pins 24 & 54 on the ecu all I need to work out is which wire on the gtt speed cable I can take the signal from
The 3 wires are
Coolant temp warning light number 9 pin on ecu,
Coolant temp sensor input number 13 pin on ecu,
Coolant temp sensor earth number 73 pin on ecu
Ahh that'll explain why I only needed 13 & 73.. I haven't got a coolant warning light :)
I also need to get an engine speed signal to pins 24 & 54 on the ecu all I need to work out is which wire on the gtt speed cable I can take the signal from
why do you need speed? I thought the gtt speed cable was for road speed from the gearbox like MPH? don't you need engine speed (rpm) from the TDC?
why do you need speed? I thought the gtt speed cable was for road speed from the gearbox like MPH? don't you need engine speed (rpm) from the TDC?
Yeah which is what I have got but the cliosport boys say I need to take a speed signal from my speedo aswell unless they are pulling my leg
Also the OE 172 rad fan should this be on constantly or just come on when up to temp, not that I know what the temp is yet as I have no temp gauge:eek:
Also an update pic of car legally on the road:smokin:
rs250nut
06-05-2009, 17:44
Looks sweet as mate wish I had brought it when I had the chance:)
Coolant temperature sensor for 172:-
Three-way sensor, two tracks for the coolant
temperature information and 1 track
for the indication on the instrument panel.
This system is fitted with a single coolant temperature
sensor which is used by the injection, the fan
assembly and the temperature warning light on
the instrument panel.
Operation
Sensor 244 enables:
- the coolant temperature to be indicated on the
instrument panel,
- the injection computer to be informed of the
engine coolant temperature.
Depending on the coolant temperature, the injection
computer controls:
- the injection system,
- the fan assembly relays:
• the fan assembly is controlled at low speed if
the coolant temperature exceeds 100 °C and
stops when the temperature falls below
96 °C,
• the fan assembly is controlled at high speed
if the coolant temperature exceeds 102 °C
and stops when the temperature falls below
100 °C,
• the fan assembly may be controlled at low
speed for the anti-percolation system and at
high or low speed for the AC.
- the coolant temperature warning light.
COOLANT TEMPERATURE WARNING LIGHT
The warning light is controlled by the injection
computer if the coolant temperature exceeds 118
°C and is switched off if the temperature falls below
115 °C.
just checked my "warning light" wire is blanked off (factory) it's a phase 2.. odd one eh!?!
Andrew Cooke
06-05-2009, 21:22
just checked my "warning light" wire is blanked off (factory) it's a phase 2.. odd one eh!?!
I thought that was the case. I'll bet the warning light is a CAN message to the dash. I was wondering about adding the wire back into the loom.
Well taken the r5 out for a run tonight sounds very very loud had a couple of probs like the heat wrap on the fanimold is giving of alot of smoke. Also rad fan wasn't coming on so have bypassed it to come as an ignition live for now.
Do have a real concern though which is how tappy / ticky the engine is? Are these engines supposed to be ?
I might do another oil change as I changed the oil back in nov 08 and the filter.
Have to say though the engine feels pretty responsive and revved all the way through to 7k with ease
Well taken the r5 out for a run tonight sounds very very loud had a couple of probs like the heat wrap on the fanimold is giving of alot of smoke. Also rad fan wasn't coming on so have bypassed it to come as an ignition live for now.
Do have a real concern though which is how tappy / ticky the engine is? Are these engines supposed to be ?
I might do another oil change as I changed the oil back in nov 08 and the filter.
Have to say though the engine feels pretty responsive and revved all the way through to 7k with ease
tomorrows on then :) whoooop
R5GTTRaider
06-05-2009, 23:29
tomorrows on then :) whoooop
o o whats happening tomorrow
just coz im nosey lol
o o whats happening tomorrow
just coz im nosey lol
Heading up to jon's gaff to take a look at his new 5 and running my conversion in only concerns I have is the amount of smoke my heat wrap is giving off.
R5GTTRaider
06-05-2009, 23:42
ah i see, how bad is the smoke?
shame i dont know u lot would have tagged along for the drive
ah i see, how bad is the smoke?
shame i dont know u lot would have tagged along for the drive
It like there is a fire under my bonnet but no flames :eek: a little worrying I am putting it down to the heat wrap being new and the fact it has got really wet over the winter period as water has got in through the 16v vent on the bonnet
R5GTTRaider
06-05-2009, 23:57
is the smoke white or look like a kettle under your bonnet kinda steam
may well be wet heat wrap thats cooking off the water, tho does it look like its burnt or buring?
The heat wrap will smoke/stink like feck mate, Don't worry about it will stop after a few miles.
Good to hear its finally getting there:)
TURBO'D CLIO
07-05-2009, 07:16
The 3 wires are
Coolant temp warning light number 9 pin on ecu,
Coolant temp sensor input number 13 pin on ecu,
Coolant temp sensor earth number 73 pin on ecu
I was nearly right lol, i remember looking at mine and thinking hmmm... I didnt use any of mine on the clio loom but then i was fitting a volvo loom not a 172..
Great work so far mate, gonna be sweet when finished..:agree:
Looking forwrd to my drive tonight just don't like the thought of no temp gauge at the mo
Looking forwrd to my drive tonight just don't like the thought of no temp gauge at the mo
Tonight deffo on then....
ALL welcome.... Spose ile go asda for milk and bourbons... maybe some sherbert dip
The heat wrap will smoke/stink like feck mate, Don't worry about it will stop after a few miles.
Good to hear its finally getting there:)
Agree :agree: its always a nightmare!
No temp gauge :disagree: I wouldn't risk it just yet!
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
Cheers jon well I now want to go back to what I know and the reason I love gtt's
Cheers jon well I now want to go back to what I know and the reason I love gtt's
james, im actualy gutted that you dont like it. all the hard work and effort, and flue/sickness from it.
Mate... when mines done, my garage is yours :)
We need to find a good classic car restoration team in surrey
TURBO'D CLIO
08-05-2009, 07:35
I see your asking for a r5 turbo lump ? are you taking this 172 lump out already.. ?
I thought it was going so well - how come the sudden change of heart.. :rolleyes:
:cry:
I see your asking for a r5 turbo lump ? are you taking this 172 lump out already.. ?
I thought it was going so well - how come the sudden change of heart.. :rolleyes:
I drove it just didn't like it all worked well I just want a c1j back I have been thinking about going back for a while to be honest
:cry:
I drove it just didn't like it all worked well I just want a c1j back I have been thinking about going back for a while to be honest
Ahhh don't tell me that.. I've only just got the engine running :) - you could always stick a low pressure turbo on it .. it may change your mind :)
Andrew Cooke
08-05-2009, 13:28
what is it you don't like? Is it too civilised, or is it the slowness? What about the handling?
what is it you don't like? Is it too civilised, or is it the slowness? What about the handling?
itz wiv ot d boost
Cue the "Renault had it right from the factory" comment again ;) :D
Tiny Tim
08-05-2009, 13:35
:scratch:
Cue the "Renault had it right from the factory" comment again ;) :D
:agree:
Cue the "Renault had it right from the factory" comment again ;) :D
:beer:to that!
Cue the "Renault had it right from the factory" comment again ;) :D
They did with the Cio 172 IMO, as with the R5 GTT
Mixing the new reliability of the 172 engine with the 80s retro shape of the GT is certainly a good idea, it wasn't long ago everybody was doing the 'Valver' conversion so i'd assume the 172 lump was the next logical 'step'
Ashy, what did you think of the conversion pre turbo? I think i remember you taking it to Knockhill?
The Clio 172 itself is IMO a nice complete package for someone into spirited back road driving and trackdays, which i'd imagine is what RenaultSport intended this car for
James, James, James, what are you like !!
long faced at the mo dude:cry::cry: wheres james gone, he looked like i have for a year or so.
TURBO'D CLIO
08-05-2009, 20:14
:cry:
I drove it just didn't like it all worked well I just want a c1j back I have been thinking about going back for a while to be honest
Mate nooooooooo, you come all this way and now your going back.. Just buy another r5 turbo and have 2, keeping ur 172 as a toy and turbo it...
You can't go back man you just can't :dearme:
:cry:
I drove it just didn't like it all worked well I just want a c1j back I have been thinking about going back for a while to be honest
are you quite sane ? you'd exchange a modern day 16v engine capable of making 170hp with no boost for a 1960's carb fed pushrod ? have a word :crap:
But ok ok, I know, there's more to it than that. it can be an emotional thing, a desire to stay original, or whatever else (none of which I subscribe to, but we're all different thankfully!!)
If it's soley down to the feel of the drive then believe me, once you turbocharge it you'll be glad you kept the modern block. If you hanker for originality then crack on, I'm sure folk will understand.
You can't have driven it far enough to make a decision surely?? Enjoy it for summer at least:)
the scope for power with a turbo conversion is awesome too, Half way there now its in the hole ;)
I'm sure folk will understand.
:gagged:
:gagged:
It's the emotional attachment to the c1j that I miss. I have already started the removal process all auxillary parts all removed it is just a case of getting the engine out now which I will do next week.
Andrew Cooke
08-05-2009, 21:08
fortunately I have no attachment to the Cleon in the Twingo :laugh:
they're gonna love this on Cliosport
Ashy, what did you think of the conversion pre turbo? I think i remember you taking it to Knockhill?
I loved mine when it was NA... It was responsive, fairly quick and nice to drive :)
Its ten times better with a bit of boost :agree: I'm with Scoff, seems such a shame to pull it out after only driving it once!!
It's the emotional attachment to the c1j that I miss. I have already started the removal process all auxillary parts all removed it is just a case of getting the engine out now which I will do next week.
wow you work quick! anychance it'll be on the road for the rtoc santapod day?
I loved mine when it was NA... It was responsive, fairly quick and nice to drive :)
Its ten times better with a bit of boost :agree: I'm with Scoff, seems such a shame to pull it out after only driving it once!!
Ashy, how much did it cost to go turbo from N/A? I like the Clio but wouldn't mind knowing what's involved in doing the conversion :)
didn't really cost me anything mate, I made the manifold myself, allready had the bigger injectors, borrowed the turbo ;) and it was allready running standalone ecu so just needed a re-map. Althought i bought a paddle clutch plate for about £180.00? ish.
didn't really cost me anything mate, I made the manifold myself, allready had the bigger injectors, borrowed the turbo ;) and it was allready running standalone ecu so just needed a re-map. Althought i bought a paddle clutch plate for about £180.00? ish.
have you kept the same compression?
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=344&pictureid=3057
Ahh yeah.. it's all coming back to me :)
no mate i've lowered it!
By machining down the OE pistons IIRC?
Ashy i don't suppose you have a list of all the parts needed to do the complete conversion?
Standalone ecu, intercooler and pipe run, custom manifold, custom down pipe, T3 turbo, turbo oil feed and oil drain, skim the pistons to lower compression, setup costs for mapping ecu, injectors (prob use meganne 225 jobbies), sparkies again prob 225 jobbies, weld a boss onto the sump for oil return from turbo, there prob a few more bits needed.
Standalone ecu, intercooler and pipe run, custom manifold, custom down pipe, T3 turbo, turbo oil feed and oil drain, skim the pistons to lower compression, setup costs for mapping ecu, injectors (prob use meganne 225 jobbies), sparkies again prob 225 jobbies, weld a boss onto the sump for oil return from turbo, there prob a few more bits needed.
Thanks Jamesy :)
Think i may pop round for a chat later matey...... give you a slap or two as well :scratch:
Awesome read...James, thanks for putting me off :cooter: :laugh: ;)
Awesome read...James, thanks for putting me off :cooter: :laugh: ;)
Spooky don't let my experiences put you off, the conversion to be honest is quiet easy to do and I would recomend going down the standalone route.
If i stuck with the F4r lump I would have looked into wider track and played alot more with the coilover settings and some stiffer springs, I would have also gone the T3 cossie turbo route.
As Scoff said to me above somewhere am I insane swapping a modern 16v engine capable of 170bhp as standard with little effort. I do miss turning the key everytime and it starting without fault. It was an emotional thing for the C1J (sad) and family that made me sway back to C1J as I was spending a lot of time on the 5 sorting little problems hear and there and juggling my time with the Mrs's & my 3 kids (and forth child now on way aswell). Thankfully the 5 is only a hobby car and the Zafira GSI is a pretty quick people carrier.
Back to C1J and the car is fully road legal and ready for Nat Day, only thing that needs sorting really is the engine loom as the rad fan wiring has a bit of fire damage so not usable so fan on a manual switch (new loom still required) but at the time being seems to be ok with the switch. Am loving the C1J at the mo with 16psi manifold on the little T2 feels really good.
Just toying with ya dude :D
My car is my daily so this would have to be a case of source what I need and literally, do it in a weekend.
I'm convinced that it's achievable, I know you had some electrical/technical gremlins but if you didn't, that car wouldn't have taken so much time to get on the road :agree:
And trust me when I say I was impressed with the speed of conversion, very good work and that aspect is really twisting my arm to press ahead with it.
I've always stuck firm with the C1J, I've never had any reason to doubt it reliability or durability wise. Saying that, I've always felt if I had the oppurtunity to do the conversion, this would be the one I'd follow up.
I'm already making hay into my spares, quite a lot of parts could be up for sale in the near future to fund this.
If you had all the parts ready, I would say it could be done in a weekend, look at my list of parts needed and you will get an idea of what is required to get it running. I hate electrics but since doing the conversion have got used to playing with a multimeter.
Quick tip when / if you do the conversion put the engine and gearbox together out of the car with nothing else attached then put the engine back in.
Volvo F series engines will be your friends to get things cheap or free,alternator brackets top and bottom, also the 1.7 gtx engine mount bracket, you can use the 5 rubber mount.
You will also need a better fuel pump than the GTT 1 as I don't think it will flow enough for the 172.
Just toying with ya dude :D
My car is my daily so this would have to be a case of source what I need and literally, do it in a weekend.
I'm convinced that it's achievable, I know you had some electrical/technical gremlins but if you didn't, that car wouldn't have taken so much time to get on the road :agree:
And trust me when I say I was impressed with the speed of conversion, very good work and that aspect is really twisting my arm to press ahead with it.
I've always stuck firm with the C1J, I've never had any reason to doubt it reliability or durability wise. Saying that, I've always felt if I had the oppurtunity to do the conversion, this would be the one I'd follow up.
I'm already making hay into my spares, quite a lot of parts could be up for sale in the near future to fund this.
steveR5GTT
29-07-2009, 10:23
Shame mate, big big shame, u shud just do a low boost turbo conversion, i love mine and wud not go bk to c1j again after owning this, shud have just given it abit more time to c how u got on wit it mate then poss add the turbo wen funds allow, each to there own but just dont c the logic in goin bk to the 1.4 bud
Shame mate, big big shame, u shud just do a low boost turbo conversion, i love mine and wud not go bk to c1j again after owning this, shud have just given it abit more time to c how u got on wit it mate then poss add the turbo wen funds allow, each to there own but just dont c the logic in goin bk to the 1.4 bud
I know matey is a shame it's like going back to Horse and cart (well not quiet) but I would like to EFI the C1J once I have seen a few succesfull conversions done and completed
Josie172cup
31-05-2011, 03:01
sorry to bring this thread back up after so long but what a journey and just as the plot was coming to an end you throw in a twist like ripping it straight out. emaotional to say the least....
i just had to say well done james.
now to read through andrew cooks thread, i hope its as enthralling as this was :D
sorry to bring this thread back up after so long but what a journey and just as the plot was coming to an end you throw in a twist like ripping it straight out. emaotional to say the least....
i just had to say well done james.
now to read through andrew cooks thread, i hope its as enthralling as this was :D
Crikey not seen this thread in a while :laugh::ashamed::coffee:.
And now I am doing F7p turbo conversion :laugh:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=1381&pictureid=16385
How strange taken 10 years of various conversion and i am back with an F4r in a GTT but turbo'd and 420bhp
Matt Cole
06-05-2018, 10:12
I guess hindsight as they say!:D
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