View Full Version : what am i doing wrong
as some of you will know ,ive been trying to improve on my f7p conversion rwd 5, but i just cant seem to get over the 300bhp mark,maybe im being greedy or to optomistic with what ive got, but it is really bugging me, i have so far played around withe the standard cams (and piper 270 inlet cam), bigger throttle body and recently fitted a bigger pwr chargecooler,
but i just cant seem to make the numbers, what are other members making and running and what inlet/ exhaust manifolds /turbos/and cams are being used to make higher numbers,
my engine so far consits of -
f7p flowed head megane inlets and williams exhaust valves
pwr 6x8 cooler
76mm diameter boost pipes
80mm throttle body
3" exhaust sytem (1m long in total including silencer)
log manifold
gt3071r with .63 exhaust housing
standard f7p cams with no overlap
intend to fit a pressure gauge to the log manifold next week, to measure pressure outputs,or am i wasting my time and efforts, with the fault being somewhere else i.e turbo, dont want to splash out on a set of turbo high lift cams when i probabley could'nt use the extra lift/flow anyway:(
could it be my log manifold holding me back or turbo spec :(
would a fabricated equal length manifold be my answer :scratch:
any thoughts or ideas would be a great help,
as some of you will know ,ive been trying to improve on my f7p conversion rwd 5, but i just cant seem to get over the 300bhp mark,maybe im being greedy or to optomistic with what ive got, but it is really bugging me, i have so far played around withe the standard cams (and piper 270 inlet cam), bigger throttle body and recently fitted a bigger pwr chargecooler,
but i just cant seem to make the numbers, what are other members making and running and what inlet/ exhaust manifolds /turbos/and cams are being used to make higher numbers,
my engine so far consits of -
f7p flowed head megane inlets and williams exhaust valves
pwr 6x8 cooler
76mm diameter boost pipes
80mm throttle body
3" exhaust sytem (1m long in total including silencer)
log manifold
gt3071r with .63 exhaust housing
standard f7p cams with no overlap
intend to fit a pressure gauge to the log manifold next week, to measure pressure outputs,or am i wasting my time and efforts, with the fault being somewhere else i.e turbo, dont want to splash out on a set of turbo high lift cams when i probabley could'nt use the extra lift/flow anyway:(
could it be my log manifold holding me back or turbo spec :(
would a fabricated equal length manifold be my answer :scratch:
any thoughts or ideas would be a great help,
Take a look @ Turbo Ted's 5 running around 400bhp on f7p with standard cam's:agree:
I wonder if it's the manifold ?
I know Robbie runs a tubular one, I always wondered if the log mani would flow enough but was assured it would flow 350 according to BB... or do you have a different one ?
Edit, actually it does sound like it could be restricting things, maybe the printout would shed more light ?
I wonder if it's the manifold ?
I know Robbie runs a tubular one, I always wondered if the log mani would flow enough but was assured it would flow 350 according to BB... or do you have a different one ?
Edit, actually it does sound like it could be restricting things, maybe the printout would shed more light ?
running the bb log manifold:(
my rr print out is almost a mirror reflection of ted,s first rr prin outs,
any ideas what turbo/boost he is running to make those numbers:scratch:
turbo ted
11-11-2011, 20:34
hi there HAndy
my engine spec is
forged pistons and rods,standard crank,standard head and cams standard inlet manifold and standard throttle body have no issues with throttle responce.
cheap china copy t3/t4 turbo rated to 350bhp,custom exhaust equal length manifold.
mapped at 18psi made---267lbft-----323hp.
mapped at 28psi made---345lbft-----393hp.with a 2psi boost leak.
ecu and loom supplied and fitted by the mad scientist SCOFF
and all mapping has been done by SCOFF to get this power.
all i can say is HAndy get your car up to the mad scientist.
hi there HAndy
my engine spec is
forged pistons and rods,standard crank,standard head and cams standard inlet manifold and standard throttle body have no issues with throttle responce.
cheap china copy t3/t4 turbo rated to 350bhp,custom exhaust equal length manifold.
mapped at 18psi made---267lbft-----323hp.
mapped at 28psi made---345lbft-----393hp.with a 2psi boost leak.
ecu and loom supplied and fitted by the mad scientist SCOFF
and all mapping has been done by SCOFF to get this power.
all i can say is HAndy get your car up to the mad scientist.
I still reckon it could be down to the manifold design.
That 3071 should easy make the numbers Andy, hell I'm hoping my journal bearing version of the 2871 will get me close to Robbie.
hi there HAndy
my engine spec is
forged pistons and rods,standard crank,standard head and cams standard inlet manifold and standard throttle body have no issues with throttle responce.
cheap china copy t3/t4 turbo rated to 350bhp,custom exhaust equal length manifold.
mapped at 18psi made---267lbft-----323hp.
mapped at 28psi made---345lbft-----393hp.with a 2psi boost leak.
ecu and loom supplied and fitted by the mad scientist SCOFF
and all mapping has been done by SCOFF to get this power.
all i can say is HAndy get your car up to the mad scientist.
Hi ted
what rpm was your peak torque ( for the 345lbft) ?
also what was your air temps ?
did you ever try the log manifold before going to the tub manifold
thanks
Possibly not very helpful but that turbo on a cossie is pushing 500bhp so very much doubt its that.
Also wouldnt an 80mm throttle body make responce a bit slow? That would flow 800+
65mm would be plenty.
A poor log manifold would be the first place i look.
Thinking about it, if youve reached the limit of flow on the manifold then no matter how much more boost you put in, it wont come out... And it will up the charge temps. It will allso back up heat from the exhaust manifold into the head/inlet/boost, again causing the air temp to rise.
turbo ted
11-11-2011, 22:00
hi andy
peak 345 lbft was at 5600rpm,
peak 393 hp was at 6100rpm,
air temps where not monitored when it made these figures as this was at the rolling day at wgt 3 weeks ago,scoff mapped up my car to 28psi on the road and estimated it was near the 400hp mark 4 weeks before the rolling road day.
i will be going back up to scoff again before christmas for some fine tunning on his new rollers:)
Possibly not very helpful but that turbo on a cossie is pushing 500bhp so very much doubt its that.
Also wouldnt an 80mm throttle body make responce a bit slow? That would flow 800+
65mm would be plenty.
A poor log manifold would be the first place i look.
Thinking about it, if youve reached the limit of flow on the manifold then no matter how much more boost you put in, it wont come out... And it will up the charge temps. It will allso back up heat from the exhaust manifold into the head/inlet/boost, again causing the air temp to rise.
to be honest, the 80mm throttle is very responsive,to the point it reaches full flow at 45%pedal travel:ashamed:, but with the size of the turbo it is still drivable until around 3300rpm ,then begins too pull very hard up to higher rpms. found the 16v double throttle plate before was quite unresponsive below 3000 rpm,(25mm ) that and the quoted prices for the renault tps sensors for that t/b where really silly money, and unavailable new anymore :( i cut off the tapered neck of the inlet manifold and had the throttle plate welded straight on :)
as regards the exhaust manifold.... yeah ,its been one of the few items i haven't changed. after reading the hype it can flow 350-400 hp:sad2:
on the rollers the air temps stayed around 34-36 degrees upto around 4500rpm and then climbed quickly just touching 60 degrees at 6200 rpm, but as soon as it was backed of the throttle the air temps came back down very quickly to the 30's again losing 1-2 degress of heat every second, so quite happy with the effectiveness of the charge cooler set up:)
just like to say thankyou:).... steve,ted,stu for the fast reply's to my ongoing saga, cheers guys:cool:
oh and james5 , thought i'd missed someone out:)
standard f7p cams with no overlap
Hi Andy, what do you mean by the above ?
Andrew Cooke
12-11-2011, 09:50
you've taken a 130hp engine, lowered the compression, fitted a log manifold and boosted it. I can't see it making it more than 125 na, so 300hp would take about 1.4bar boost?
How badly are you doing?
To me it's the log manifold, it's a great thing for knocking up a quick reliable 270hp, but it's no performance item. I'm sure it's the reason why your hotter cams didn't work.
http://www.full-race.com/articles/Bseriestest_writeup.pdf
I think you'll need your cams and the manifold to make it sing.
Which turbine housing are you using? Is it the 3" 4 bolt GT one?
Btw, how rich is he fuelling it? He used to map them really rich, bordering on black smoke rich, he's an old dog, but maybe he's learnt some new tricks :laugh:
I'm guessing all this of course, so feel free to ignore me:D
you've taken a 130hp engine, lowered the compression, fitted a log manifold and boosted it. I can't see it making it more than 125 na, so 300hp would take about 1.4bar boost?
How badly are you doing?
To me it's the log manifold, it's a great thing for knocking up a quick reliable 270hp, but it's no performance item. I'm sure it's the reason why your hotter cams didn't work.
http://www.full-race.com/articles/Bseriestest_writeup.pdf
I think you'll need your cams and the manifold to make it sing.
Which turbine housing are you using? Is it the 3" 4 bolt GT one?
Btw, how rich is he fuelling it? He used to map them really rich, bordering on black smoke rich, he's an old dog, but maybe he's learnt some new tricks :laugh:
I'm guessing all this of course, so feel free to ignore me:D
To be fair to Dave I watched the fueling and it was spot on, not rich at all, yes I know he has a rep formapping on the safe side but at the end of the day I'd prefer safe and reliable to out and out power thats ready to pop at any given moment.
But as I said both the fueling on mine and Andy's were spot on, mine didn't make the power cus the turbo is too small and as for Andy's my first thought was the cams but thinking about it the manifold ain't the best in the world
you've taken a 130hp engine, lowered the compression, fitted a log manifold and boosted it. I can't see it making it more than 125 na, so 300hp would take about 1.4bar boost?
How badly are you doing?
To me it's the log manifold, it's a great thing for knocking up a quick reliable 270hp, but it's no performance item. I'm sure it's the reason why your hotter cams didn't work.
http://www.full-race.com/articles/Bseriestest_writeup.pdf
I think you'll need your cams and the manifold to make it sing.
Which turbine housing are you using? Is it the 3" 4 bolt GT one?
Btw, how rich is he fuelling it? He used to map them really rich, bordering on black smoke rich, he's an old dog, but maybe he's learnt some new tricks :laugh:
was running this beforehttp://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-043&Category_Code=GTH
I'm guessing all this of course, so feel free to ignore me:D
any ideas are good ideas , and your guessing is bob on most of the time:)
with regards to the turbine housing its a .63 5 bolt gt/ internal actuator /on a25 flange plate with a 5 bolt 3" v band exhaust flange http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-FLS-023&http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-043&Category_Code=GTHCategory_Code=ATP-FLS1 on the 25 flange plate, was running this before http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-043&Category_Code=GTH with an adapter to the manifold,which leaked all the time, possibly due to different heat expansions of the log /adapter plate/turbo flange, that and it was just to laggy on its own without the supercharger, nice full race article thread there by the way, got anymore about header lengths/profiles vs ftlb/hp etc, that would be really nice;)
would it be worth while investing in a set of high lift turbo profile cams from somebody like catcams,once ive got the tubby manifold fabricated fitted and breathing alot more,could there be more gains to be had or keep with what ive got with the( lower power band and more usable power )standard ish cams and make do :) , not looking to push the start of the power band to far up the rpm range :(
or save the cash and start purchasing the materials and 02j/m gearbox flywheel/clutch etc ready for the inevitable to happen :scratch:
on the rollers the air temps stayed around 34-36 degrees upto around 4500rpm and then climbed quickly just touching 60 degrees at 6200 rpm, but as soon as it was backed of the throttle the air temps came back down very quickly to the 30's again losing 1-2 degress of heat every second, so quite happy with the effectiveness of the charge cooler set up:)
That's just what my pwr cooler use to do so went fmic and now and only see 15 degrees above ambient and almost an instant temp drop to ambient on gear change.
Andrew Cooke
12-11-2011, 13:05
any ideas are good ideas , and your guessing is bob on most of the time:)
with regards to the turbine housing its a .63 5 bolt gt/ internal actuator /on a25 flange plate with a 5 bolt 3" v band exhaust flange http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-FLS-023&http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-043&Category_Code=GTHCategory_Code=ATP-FLS1 on the 25 flange plate, was running this before http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-043&Category_Code=GTH with an adapter to the manifold,which leaked all the time, possibly due to different heat expansions of the log /adapter plate/turbo flange, that and it was just to laggy on its own without the supercharger, nice full race article thread there by the way, got anymore about header lengths/profiles vs ftlb/hp etc, that would be really nice;)
When you're doing the turbo and exhaust you might want to consider swapping the turbine housing:
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-044&Category_Code=GTH
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-020&Category_Code=TTH
(confirm fitment)
As to lengths etc I can only offer my opinion - copy the Williams manifold :D and use a nice smooth collector, have I seen these for sale somewhere?
T3 flange, external gate, blah...
Andrew Cooke
12-11-2011, 13:13
would it be worth while investing in a set of high lift turbo profile cams from somebody like catcams,once ive got the tubby manifold fabricated fitted and breathing alot more,could there be more gains to be had or keep with what ive got with the( lower power band and more usable power )standard ish cams and make do :) , not looking to push the start of the power band to far up the rpm range :(
or save the cash and start purchasing the materials and 02j/m gearbox flywheel/clutch etc ready for the inevitable to happen :scratch:
either way you're going to need to sort the gearbox...
What happened to your previous cams? They sounded OK to me. I don't think you need turbo cams, fast road cams is what you want, especially if you can play with cam timing. I don't think the manifold on it's own will do a whole lot now that you've 'optimised' the cams to work with a cork in the exhaust ;)
Andrew Cooke
12-11-2011, 13:18
That's just what my pwr cooler use to do so went fmic and now and only see 15 degrees above ambient and almost an instant temp drop to ambient on gear change.
just spotted that, 60C is slit your throat territory. That CC isn't keeping up, do you have a pic of the installation?
just spotted that, 60C is slit your throat territory. That CC isn't keeping up, do you have a pic of the installation?
not to hand cheif, but with regards to layout it lives tight to passenger side rear turret with the inlets/outlets facing front/rear of car , with 1x 90 bend connecting of turbo comp and 1x90 bend connecting to throttle body, all lagged with aluminum heat wrap, inlet/ outlet of cc is 76mm o/a dia which ive kept the same from the turbo outlet to throttlebody(ie no restriction,however the cc core feed pipes are 25mm and my boschpump is 19mm diameter,and the pre rad is 16mm, something i need to change, try and keep all pipe work to 25mm where possible?
perhaps a bigger pre rad?current size 600x280mm
total length of cc coolant pipework run must be getting on for approx 6m:(
not enough room in the back for pre rad /intercooler , unless i go nuts and fit a super scoop to the roof or rear side window:scratch:
any ideas ?:scratch:
either way you're going to need to sort the gearbox...
What happened to your previous cams? They sounded OK to me. I don't think you need turbo cams, fast road cams is what you want, especially if you can play with cam timing. I don't think the manifold on it's own will do a whole lot now that you've 'optimised' the cams to work with a cork in the exhaust ;)
still got them tucked up nice and safe :) never chuck anything :laugh:
Rather than just a larger pre rad try a second it was the only thing I didn't try and everyone that seems to have measured good temps with a cc on a 5 have seemed to use two.
at the end of the day I'd prefer safe and reliable to out and out power thats ready to pop at any given moment.
There's a big margin between overly safe and "going pop at any given moment" ;) That is not a slight against anyone by the way but that statement is wildy unfair to those tuners that spend the time to get the balance right.
standard f7p cams with no overlap
That still confuses me, does that mean you have moved far away from standard timing ?
That still confuses me, does that mean you have moved far away from standard timing ?
sorry scoff bit confusing,reduced overlap :ashamed:
was not thinking to straight when i first posted that up, thinking of a million and one things:confused:
how could i confuse the mad scientist:laugh::laugh:
Andrew Cooke
12-11-2011, 15:40
isn't Blocky the mad scientist? now I'm confused:confused:
Matt Cole
12-11-2011, 17:15
isn't Blocky the mad scientist? now I'm confused:confused:
Nope he's just a pervert!:D
do you think 1 x bosch pump will have enough umph to flow water round the entire CC circuit effectively?
There's a big margin between overly safe and "going pop at any given moment" ;) That is not a slight against anyone by the way but that statement is wildy unfair to those tuners that spend the time to get the balance right.
Yes there is a big margin but I've seen at least 3 tuners push it too far just to get abit more than the other guy, ok the 3 I've seen do this have since gone under but it's not unheard of.
All I'm saying is I'd rather know that I've got someone mapping my car on the side caution instead of just getting power hungry.
Unfortunately the mapping industry is like the building industry, you get the guys who do consistent quality work but you also get the guys who do frankly **** work who bad mouth others just to get abit of work (that's not aimed you Scoff, your work is great), if Dave's was **** he wouldn't still be the industry would he.
Anyway enough of this back on topic, Andy you've now done cams back to stock and it's made a difference but I gotta agree that manifold has got to costing you power, there is nothing else it could be, just think about it this way fella, you've got plenty of space to get somit made up, I'm dreading the day I have to look at something made for mine as space is very tight :(
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