View Full Version : Turbo choice
rs250nut
16-11-2008, 22:21
As I am in the market for a new turbo im having a look at this, is it worth it?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Renault-5-gt-turbo-KTR350-power-system-rollerbearing-tu_W0QQitemZ280284271521QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item28 0284271521&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
If I dont go for this I am going for a gt2554r with a .49 rear end with t3 .42 compressor housing will this work ok with the k-tec cam that you dont have to use springs with?
It's a starting price of £650... It's also been sat in his garage, which isn't a great start. The core will be bone dry, rust can also occur internally.
You can't fit a T3 .42 a/r onto a GT2554R as it's a GT25, you can only fit T3 housings onto T3 compressor wheels, or GT28/T28 wheels.
As I am in the market for a new turbo im having a look at this, is it worth it?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Renault-5-gt-turbo-KTR350-power-system-rollerbearing-tu_W0QQitemZ280284271521QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item28 0284271521&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
If I dont go for this I am going for a gt2554r with a .49 rear end with t3 .42 compressor housing will this work ok with the k-tec cam that you dont have to use springs with?
ive seen this turbo in the flesh an its mint, very big tho... lol was tempted but was too big for me..
I mentioned this in another thread the other day - With regards to the 2554r, it doesn't matter if you do fit a .49 hotside housing, the turbine wheel is still gonna be the same size, and thus, that's gonna be where ya lag issue is stemming from.
Not so sure you can swap that compressor housing onto a gt25 wheel either?
If you're planning on using it as a track turbo, and thus in the high revs area the majority of the time, it'll probably be ok to use, but going from your cam quote I'm guessing that isn't gonna be the case.
With regards to the ktr350, it's not a '40psi' turbo, and will probably be maxed out around 230hp. On the plus side, it won't be as laggy as the 2554r.
I mentioned this in another thread the other day - With regards to the 2554r, it doesn't matter if you do fit a .49 hotside housing, the turbine wheel is still gonna be the same size, and thus, that's gonna be where ya lag issue is stemming from.
Not so sure you can swap that compressor housing onto a gt25 wheel either?
If you're planning on using it as a track turbo, and thus in the high revs area the majority of the time, it'll probably be ok to use, but going from your cam quote I'm guessing that isn't gonna be the case.
With regards to the ktr350, it's not a '40psi' turbo, and will probably be maxed out around 230hp. On the plus side, it won't be as laggy as the 2554r.
how big is the 2554r then as this ktr turbo is huge an thought it had a fair bit of lag??? :)
rs250nut
16-11-2008, 22:44
It's a starting price of £650... It's also been sat in his garage, which isn't a great start. The core will be bone dry, rust can also occur internally.
You can't fit a T3 .42 a/r onto a GT2554R as it's a GT25, you can only fit T3 housings onto T3 compressor wheels, or GT28/T28 wheels.
Thanks for clearing that up matey thats just the way it was decribed, No matter how I look at it its going to hurt my wallet.
Dimension wise, probably not a great deal of difference, but it runs a larger (53mm 62trim) turbine.
Iirc, I think that's only a circa 240hp turbo as well, so it's not like you're gonna be getting fantastic power (when comparing to the 350) by having to run it in a higher rev range.
rs250nut
16-11-2008, 22:54
I mentioned this in another thread the other day - With regards to the 2554r, it doesn't matter if you do fit a .49 hotside housing, the turbine wheel is still gonna be the same size, and thus, that's gonna be where ya lag issue is stemming from.
Not so sure you can swap that compressor housing onto a gt25 wheel either?
If you're planning on using it as a track turbo, and thus in the high revs area the majority of the time, it'll probably be ok to use, but going from your cam quote I'm guessing that isn't gonna be the case.
With regards to the ktr350, it's not a '40psi' turbo, and will probably be maxed out around 230hp. On the plus side, it won't be as laggy as the 2554r.
I dont want a really peaky, narrow power band motor, What cam and turbo would you use? I do have a 285 with springs in the garage but I think the springs are to much as in my old engine the valve head it self broke off and destroyed the engine.
It won't be that much of a narrow-band (with the 2554r), but it will want some revs thrown at it.
There's no set answer as to an ideal cam & turbo setup I'm afraid. It also depends what you want from the car, and in which environment it's predominantly gonna be used? ie, responsive country lane driving car? Drag beast? Track attack monster?
K-tec use the GT28R core and swap the comp/turbine housings over to suit the 5. I can also tell that comp wheel is the 28 60 trim wheel from the comp housing inlet.
Dimension wise, probably not a great deal of difference, but it runs a larger (53mm 62trim) turbine.
Iirc, I think that's only a circa 240hp turbo as well, so it's not like you're gonna be getting fantastic power (when comparing to the 350) by having to run it in a higher rev range.
the no.1 c1j in our leaderboard used a 2554r though. running way off the map mind!
how big is the 2554r then as this ktr turbo is huge an thought it had a fair bit of lag??? :)
The 2554R is the rollerbearing upgrade for the CA18det (s13 200sx) ... http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2554R_471171_3.htm
K-tec's turbo is simply a GT28R, they've taken the supplied compressor housing and exhaust housing off and fitted smaller ones to make it more managable for the 5.
The 2554R is the rollerbearing upgrade for the CA18det (s13 200sx) ... http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2554R_471171_3.htm
K-tec's turbo is simply a GT28R, they've taken the supplied compressor housing and exhaust housing off and fitted smaller ones to make it more managable for the 5.
so they have someone to machine up .49 turbines for the 28r core then ?
I'd assume so, it's an arse of a job too, hence the prices. There's .49 housings available for the GT cores now, but I don't know where they're available from...
rs250nut
16-11-2008, 23:17
It won't be that much of a narrow-band (with the 2554r), but it will want some revs thrown at it.
There's no set answer as to an ideal cam & turbo setup I'm afraid. It also depends what you want from the car, and in which environment it's predominantly gonna be used? ie, responsive country lane driving car? Drag beast? Track attack monster?
The guy who built the engine Bruce said that it made peak power at 6400. I will be using it for road driving alot of the time with a few track days thrown in. Driving flat out in a straight line has never appealed to me that much but would like to give it a try. Im only going to be using this set up for a while as I wait for my f7r-p to built, I know its not the best base to start with but I have one in the garage.
That peak power would of had a massive influence from the turbo he was using. For example, you wouldn't get power that high up with a T2.
rs250nut
16-11-2008, 23:19
I'd assume so, it's an arse of a job too, hence the prices. There's .49 housings available for the GT cores now, but I don't know where they're available from...
The guy I spoke to at cr turbos said that he has them cast for the 5.
K-tec's turbo is simply a GT28R, they've taken the supplied compressor housing and exhaust housing off and fitted smaller ones to make it more managable for the 5.
GT or old skool T 28? I thought that turbo had been out a while before the GT series had been launched, unless of course they changed the product but kept the 350 name?
Scoff, that's why I mentioned the 2554r is more at home in a high-rev'ing environment (track/drag use) as opposed to point to point driving down ya average country lane (where lag would be a pain in the ass).
GT or old skool T 28? I thought that turbo had been out a while before the GT series had been launched, unless of course they changed the product but kept the 350 name?
GT, I always assumed the 350 was the GT28R, and the ones i've seen have always been rollerbearing. Confusing thread...:D
Ok, but you can (still) get old skool T series blowers with RB cores.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=tp&Category_Code=GTB
Ok, but you can (still) get old skool T series blowers with RB cores.
The only ones i've come across are T3 or larger. I took a Turbonetics one apart last year and it was the biggest pile of **** i'd seen. It only used a rollerbearing cartridge on the compressor side:rolleyes:, which is clearly where it's needed...
:D
I remember the old 'T25' blowers I supplied several members (Sparkie, JP, Makaveli, to name 3) many years back had an RB core, and for sure, that was before the GT series units hit the market over here.
I've not seen them in the T25 bearings housings, but it would have posed one other benefit apart from the lag. You would be able to rebuild them, if they hadn't totally fubar'd, and you were able to get hold of the cartridges.
Oh, and as far as I can remember, the T series conversions still ran the thrust bearing.
Adam, what spec was that turbocharger you leant to me that went on the 19 Chamade turbo? The 1 that ran 18psi and gave us 180bhp and ft/lbs torque, it definitely wasn't a T28 sized turbo IIRC.
As you know i'm looking into buying a new turbo, i'm have a std bottom end, cam and head, to run just over a bar of boost.
That was a full T25, Tomcat if you will, with a machined T2 .35 a/r exhaust housing.
as where talking turbos.....
why are they such a rip off:confused: i cant see why turbos cost soo bloody much?
i can understand that its all precision work but surely all the componants cant be cost that much for companies to charge silly amounts?
when i say silly amounts im talking £600+
Parts aren't cheap for them, unfortunatley. If you're going off those ''service'' kits on ebay, you're mistaken. That's all they are too, for servicing a working turbo. They're a waste of money if your turbo already has failure symptoms.
There's alot of time that goes into machining parts, especially on hybrids, not to mention the cost of actuators/comp wheels/shafts/360 thrust bearings and so on... You'd be suprised how little profit we make on the hybrids we sell. That's why we mainly deal with standard units that we can have a constant supply of on the shelf.
The hybrid market is too up and down to bother with batches.
Parts aren't cheap for them, unfortunatley. If you're going off those ''service'' kits on ebay, you're mistaken. That's all they are too, for servicing a working turbo. They're a waste of money if your turbo already has failure symptoms.
There's alot of time that goes into machining parts, especially on hybrids, not to mention the cost of actuators/comp wheels/shafts/360 thrust bearings and so on... You'd be suprised how little profit we make on the hybrids we sell. That's why we mainly deal with standard units that we can have a constant supply of on the shelf.
The hybrid market is too up and down to bother with batches.
thanks for that adam:agree: i dont think i could ever afford a fancy turbo, i think the last time i bought a turbo it cost me around £250 cash for a std recon t2.
ahh well maybe i'll treat myself in the future:)
That was a full T25, Tomcat if you will, with a machined T2 .35 a/r exhaust housing.
Was a good turbo :)
thanks for that adam:agree: i dont think i could ever afford a fancy turbo, i think the last time i bought a turbo it cost me around £250 cash for a std recon t2.
ahh well maybe i'll treat myself in the future:)
not everyone can afford the big stuff, but I try to give people a managable price when quoting, except on the rollerbearings, whhich is out of my hands.
Was a good turbo :)
It was indeed, it made my old electric blue 5 shift.
newbstar*
17-11-2008, 21:51
what was the large bb tunings roller bearing turbo?
not everyone can afford the big stuff, but I try to give people a managable price when quoting, except on the rollerbearings, whhich is out of my hands.
:bla::bothered::D
Where's my 20g wheel? ;)
Someone hear something?...:D
It was indeed, it made my old electric blue 5 shift.
Can you text me a price for that 1 if possible :)
what was the large bb tunings roller bearing turbo?
GT28R again, modified the same way K-tec's is, but with a serious lack of effort. I spoke to someone on the phone a couple of weeks ago and they told me BB had welded the core to the exhaust housing:rolleyes:
Can you text me a price for that 1 if possible :)
On, its way...
On, its way...
Blimey that was quick, cheers :)
GT28R again
Again? We still haven't confirmed the first one yet! :D ;)
Again? We still haven't confirmed the first one yet! :D ;)
Trust, I know;).
That one in the ebay advert is without a doubt a rb, the core is a different shape. And I ordered in a GT28R to replace another persons BB rb last week, which wasn't welded together, but shady none the less.
Andrew Cooke
17-11-2008, 22:43
Trust, I know;).
That one in the ebay advert is without a doubt a rb, the core is a different shape. And I ordered in a GT28R to replace another persons BB rb last week, which wasn't welded together, but shady none the less.
6 bolts... but what's the exhaust housing?
.49, although they haven't drilled the required hole for it to fit the Renault elbow properly. That's a T series housing they've used aswell.
The .64 has a differen't wastegate penny and arm, even though the scroll looks similar in size...
on the subjext of turbos i have a gt28r to fit with a 0.49 rear housing from turbo dynamics , i never thought of changing the compressor housing to a smaller size ..... do you think changing the compressor cover will make it boost earlier ?????
the compressor at the moment is 60mm-60trim / 60 AR
The comp housing shouldn't affect spool up, as it's the turbine wheel that's powered by the exhaust gas.
Ill stick with i have and see how it goes then .... :)
rs250nut
24-11-2008, 18:55
Went with the 2554r with a -34 actuator does look quite large.
Andrew Cooke
24-11-2008, 19:03
Went with the 2554r with a -34 actuator does look quite large.
what are you doing for a cam? I've lost track..
rs250nut
24-11-2008, 19:09
what are you doing for a cam? I've lost track..
K-tec The one you dont have to use springs with, In my old engine that came with the car is a piper 285 should i use this? I dont have forged pistons
Andrew Cooke
24-11-2008, 19:14
K-tec The one you dont have to use springs with, In my old engine that came with the car is a piper 285 should i use this? I dont have forged pistons
you'd be better with a 285, check that the peaks haven't worn off the one you have.
rs250nut
24-11-2008, 20:16
Is there a way i can remove the cam without taking the head off, and without taking the engine out?
I used a standard 2554r and could not believe how laggy it was. 5000rpm before any real boost. 0.49 definately needed with one of those.
Is there a way i can remove the cam without taking the head off, and without taking the engine out?
cam out without removing engine is easy enough, it involves undoing the front o/s engine mount, jacking the engine right up so that the cam slides out into the hole in the inner wing that the anti-perc fan normally lives in.
doing it with the head on isn't worthwhile. I remember sparkie talking about using magnets on rods to hold the followers up while you swap the cams. problem is, I'd be wanting to inspect the state of the lifters before I banged a new cam in.
I like my 28R with the .64, it's laggy, but i'm sure it's on boost before 5k, more 4.5k. I managed to get 25psi out of it, but that was too much.
adam, it'll depend a lot on cam choice. my cam wasn't that good at making torque below 5000rpm so didn't help spool. I also ran it at 2bar, which it took quite a while to get to, 5.5krpm I think !! probably 20psi or so came up at 5000rpm. maybe 1 bar at 4800rpm from memory.
Yea, i'd have thought as much, but I don't have a clue what cam is in the engine. I was told lift, but that was it. Still, it suits the car pretty well.
Yea, i'd have thought as much, but I don't have a clue what cam is in the engine. I was told lift, but that was it. Still, it suits the car pretty well.
but you could stick an 0.49 on dead easy ? I bet the 0.64 doesn't make any more power than the 0.49 would, or not enough to worry about anyway.
I guess. I only used the .64 because it came with the GT2554R I used as a base, and didn't fancy waiting 2 days for a new .49 to arrive. The lag doesn't bother me. To be honest, the way the car drives with the .64, I wouldn't be suprised if it made the car a nightmare on boost with the .49, as it's spinning up through 3rd now.
what kinda boost u running there at the moment adam ???
Only about 21psi. If you're after any more details about the engine, you're asking the wrong person, as I didn't build it.
at about 21psi (i take it thats manifold ) must be knocking or over 200 BHP i would expect .......... i was just asking what boost as im looking to whack on a gt28r next year :)
rs250nut
24-11-2008, 20:58
I used a standard 2554r and could not believe how laggy it was. 5000rpm before any real boost. 0.49 definately needed with one of those.
Sorry it does have a .49 rear end. Does anyone know the thread size of the oil feed both ends, what size in aeroquip? -6
I've got an oil in adapter, you're welcome to, but the feed pipe thread is tiny to what i've seen in the past. Looks close to 1/4 unf... I'd have to check that aswell.
Andrew Cooke
24-11-2008, 21:08
this help?
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/catalog/Turbochargers/gt25_pdfs/Garrett_GT2554R_471171_3.pdf
this help?
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/catalog/Turbochargers/gt25_pdfs/Garrett_GT2554R_471171_3.pdf
Totally forgot they had those diagrams on there:agree:
Adam do you know what type of water feed is used on the side closest to the engine ??? Cos so far i have only managed to get hold of a straight down feed , was wondering if a 90degree feed was available here in uk ....... seen some on ebay but£32 ...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Turbo-Turbocharger-Water-Coolant-pipe-kit-M14-x-1-5-mm_W0QQitemZ220304210471QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Cars Parts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item220304210471&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
rs250nut
24-11-2008, 21:16
I've got an oil in adapter, you're welcome to, but the feed pipe thread is tiny to what i've seen in the past. Looks close to 1/4 unf... I'd have to check that aswell.
I have got an adapter but i want to use aeroquip or similar so i can use an inline filter, plus the adapter wont fit because one of the bolts is bang in the way.
Adam do you know what type of water feed is used on the side closest to the engine ??? Cos so far i have only managed to get hold of a straight down feed , was wondering if a 90degree feed was available here in uk ....... seen some on ebay but£32 ...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Turbo-Turbocharger-Water-Coolant-pipe-kit-M14-x-1-5-mm_W0QQitemZ220304210471QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Cars Parts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item220304210471&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
We've got a few old ones at work that are still intact, although the straight ones are fine, I used them without a problem.
I have got an adapter but i want to use aeroquip or similar so i can use an inline filter, plus the adapter wont fit because one of the bolts is bang in the way.
I think I had a smililar problem, although, I only live 5 minutes away from Think Automotive, so I just took my turbo down there and we made up a pipe/adapters/inline filter for it. Cost me over £50 though:crap:, I didn't realise how expensive those funky connectors cost.
Cheers adam , ill just wait and try the straight one first then before i fork out anymore cash. What actuator u using with the turbo adam ???
Yea, i'd have thought as much, but I don't have a clue what cam is in the engine. I was told lift, but that was it. Still, it suits the car pretty well.
Slightly modified Kent rt200 (@ 112).
I guess. I only used the .64 because it came with the GT2554R I used as a base, and didn't fancy waiting 2 days for a new .49 to arrive. The lag doesn't bother me. To be honest, the way the car drives with the .64, I wouldn't be suprised if it made the car a nightmare on boost with the .49, as it's spinning up through 3rd now.
Started to put the FNR 3-1 blower together m8 ;)
Didn't want to open new thread since question is completely related to the topic...
I have GT2554R and from my standpoint it is too laggy in first two gears. In third it is ripping car apart. Still, would like to improve spool in 1st and 2nd. I have .49 rear from my T25 and was wondering how much modification is needed to fit it on GT25? Is it worth bothering at all? I'm running 24psi at manifold and it kicks full boost around 5000 rpm and would like to lover it at least 500 rpm.
Thanks
rs250nut
09-02-2009, 00:25
Didn't want to open new thread since question is completely related to the topic...
I have GT2554R and from my standpoint it is too laggy in first two gears. In third it is ripping car apart. Still, would like to improve spool in 1st and 2nd. I have .49 rear from my T25 and was wondering how much modification is needed to fit it on GT25? Is it worth bothering at all? I'm running 24psi at manifold and it kicks full boost around 5000 rpm and would like to lover it at least 500 rpm.
Thanks
As said above you need to use a .49 exhaust housing.
Yep, I know that but my question was is there possibility to switch .64 rear from GT25 with .49 from T25 without massive modifications on turbine wheel housing. I know that bolt pattern is different and that is half hour amateur job...
The wheel trim is the same, so there's no modifications needed on the internal part of the scroll, you just need to machine the core seat. It's not a quick job though.
Thanks for the info Adam. So i need to adjust part that needs to "sit" on the central part of the turbo (oil and water inlet/outlet) which is afterward tightened with two "half moons". Did I got it right?
Do not have intention of doing it myself. Gonna take it to local specialist for metal processing.
EDIT: I added picture. Adam is this part what are you talking about? This one in perfect circle :D
Yes, that's the part that needs machining, quite a bit of metal needs cutting back, so the original holes may be left redundant. There's several ways you can do it, I hope the people you take it to do it properly:).
They will. No worries Adam. Thanks once again. You are true turbo guru :worship:
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