Charges for Running at rolling road days

[Mudslinger]

I grudged paying £35 for an accellaration run on the rollers ,£40 wouldve had me in tears :cry:
I cant see how they can justify anymore than £20 for this :confused: i mean it takes 10 mins if that to hook the car up and give it a quick run . Different if they are having to do some messing about with the car, but on a club day , when its just 1 accelaration run it just seems steep ,is it just me being a tight arse jock or do others feel its a bit pricey ?

[Mike Wilson@ PCS]

i agree its a bit steep just for a run , and especially if theres a rr day arranged

[djinuk]

i expect £25 for a power run, end of day though i guess the cost is on wear and tear on the kit, which i imagine can cost

[newbstar*]

Also they got to pay for the unit itself.

[clee]

I think a lot of people do forget that people are trying to run a business :laugh: It's only the car club mentality that everything should be done for cost .

[warpspeed]

Mudslinger i do understand your feelings on the prices i charged, however the rolling road has cost nearly £40k to buy and set-up, it was supposed to be installed and running in the middle of dec '07 but due to delays and calibration probs it wasn't running until july this year, so that means £40k paid out and nothing earned. We are a family business and need to earn a living, i could have earned more from 8 hours labour on sat than i did from the rr day so yes a run may 'only' take 15-25mins but for the info that you get in black and white so to speak i feel it is worth the money. for example looking at your printouts this morning i noticed that your run was'nt 'normal' in that the boost wasn't being controlled properly and your afr's were too rich (11's) so i asked Chris to have a look and he was of the same opinion so decided to give you a call. Your not just paying for the use of the equipment, you are also paying for somebody who knows what they are looking at in the printouts to give you advice, i apologise for not getting to have a look at and discuss your results with you yesterday, i wanted to be able to get round everbody to discuss their results but it just didn't happen. Scott

[car.crash]

I think a lot of people do forget that people are trying to run a business :laugh: It's only the car club mentality that everything should be done for cost .


i was saying exactly the same thing tonight, i dont work for free so why should tuners.

[D4WNO]

Never forget that the majority of the time the people running the rollers are extremely knowledgable and will notice "off" things about your run from a mile.

Remember you can also potentially save some engine parts that have previously been set up incorrectly. Spending £35+ is well worth it if you ask me, if only just for the advice/knowledge that you can come away with.

[Mudslinger]

Mudslinger i do understand your feelings on the prices i charged, however the rolling road has cost nearly £40k to buy and set-up, it was supposed to be installed and running in the middle of dec '07 but due to delays and calibration probs it wasn't running until july this year, so that means £40k paid out and nothing earned. We are a family business and need to earn a living, i could have earned more from 8 hours labour on sat than i did from the rr day so yes a run may 'only' take 15-25mins but for the info that you get in black and white so to speak i feel it is worth the money. for example looking at your printouts this morning i noticed that your run was'nt 'normal' in that the boost wasn't being controlled properly and your afr's were too rich (11's) so i asked Chris to have a look and he was of the same opinion so decided to give you a call. Your not just paying for the use of the equipment, you are also paying for somebody who knows what they are looking at in the printouts to give you advice, i apologise for not getting to have a look at and discuss your results with you yesterday, i wanted to be able to get round everbody to discuss their results but it just didn't happen. Scott

No need to go into detail m8 , i wasnt refering this to you it was just a general Question to see what others thought , thats why i started another thread .
The rr day in the south west was £40 so u were cheaper :)

as for my car , didnt you tell me it went lean a bit around 4k rpm and that was all you said ?

now your telling me its rich ?

[Miller]

I think £35 is very fare, take for example the club member that ran his 5 yesterday on the rollers i discover the reason his engine was pinking......this is just unbelievable.

The previous owners has hooked up his aei to the enrichment circuit overflow pipe so it was not seeing any boost (or vacuum) so running full advance all the time:eek:.

So i saved his new engine from destruction for just £35, i bet he is very happy with spending the money:)

[Kris M]

No need to go into detail m8 , i wasnt refering this to you it was just a general Question to see what others thought , thats why i started another thread .
The rr day in the south west was £40 so u were cheaper :)

as for my car , didnt you tell me it went lean a bit around 4k rpm and that was all you said ?

now your telling me its rich ?


The SW rr day was £25 per run yesterday

[Mudslinger]

but thats what i said in my first post , its fair do's if the operator has to get his hands dirty , but for just a 35 sec run on the rollers i felt it a bit steep ?? oh thats how long mines was on , just watched a vid :)

Oh and your helpfullness to other members was mentioned Chris in my post on the other thread , alot of credit to you working with an audiance like you did ..

[dj13]

The rr day in the south west was £40 so u were cheaper :)

as for my car , didnt you tell me it went lean a bit around 4k rpm and that was all you said ?

now your telling me its rich ?



Some of these tuners are like the weather men. :scared:

[warpspeed]

No need to go into detail m8 , i wasnt refering this to you it was just a general Question to see what others thought , thats why i started another thread .
The rr day in the south west was £40 so u were cheaper :)

as for my car , didnt you tell me it went lean a bit around 4k rpm and that was all you said ?

now your telling me its rich ?

Yes when i was running it i noticed the afr rise to 13.05 at 4k then within 250revs it was back to 12.5, as i said i only really got a chance to look properly yesterday morning and the area that concerns me is from 5-6.5k you told me the rev limit was set at 7.2k but it never even got that far, your boost peaked at 26psi at 5k then by 5.2k it was 21.5psi, 5.3k up to 24, 5.5k 22psi, at 6.5k 21psi 12.25afr 6.6k 24.5 psi 11afr, your boost control is poor and there is no way it can be mapped properly, with proper boost control and some time mapping (i'm not suggesting i do it by the way as i have no experience with omex ecu's) i would be looking for figures around 260-280hp flywheel and 220lbft. I asked Chris to phone you yesterday as i didn't want you to think that i was trying to get work of you or slag off ava since i didn't get a proper chance to discuss your run on sat. I was concerned that you had put a lot of time, money and effort into you car (which i think is a work of art by the way) only to fall at the last hurdle!

[Mudslinger]

fair do's Scott , i dont have any qualms about you giving your judgement and opinions on my car , the car has hardly fell at the last hurdle as its not the finished article yet there is still some underlying issues that need sorting , i have also contacted AVA and expressed my feelings about the car and based them on the results i got from you and how it drove on the road , it was made clear to me that the mapping had some workarounds in it due to different factors that need looked at .

Having mtb's has caused some grief with the mapping and theres not alot of help around ,so alot of it is trial and error .

im unsure how the boost is jumping around abit , its controlled via the ecu , i was told that it made no more power when more boost was added as the turbo was the restriction .

[phase i 16 v turbo]

Have always paid £25 for a power run which included the air / fuel, boost pressure and connecting an external knock sensor + the knowledge and advice of the tuner. Mind you the last one was 8 months ago now. I am well aware things are going up.

[warpspeed]

fair do's Scott , i dont have any qualms about you giving your judgement and opinions on my car , the car has hardly fell at the last hurdle as its not the finished article yet there is still some underlying issues that need sorting , i have also contacted AVA and expressed my feelings about the car and based them on the results i got from you and how it drove on the road , it was made clear to me that the mapping had some workarounds in it due to different factors that need looked at .

Having mtb's has caused some grief with the mapping and theres not alot of help around ,so alot of it is trial and error .

im unsure how the boost is jumping around abit , its controlled via the ecu , i was told that it made no more power when more boost was added as the turbo was the restriction .

I know the feeling of there being not a lot of help around as there isn't really anybody in the uk doing lpg with performance in mind.
Are you still using an actuator with a spring in it with a solenoid valve controlling what this see's? may be worth considering an external wastgate for more accurate efficient control. Probs the reason no more power was made with more boost is that the turbo is near the edge of its thermal efficiency, i.e. the extra boost created is reduced due to the extra heat that is created so the engine see's the same volume of air and more fuel can't be added.

[dgdogz]

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

interesting thread.
i agree with the main object though...£40 for less than a minute is a bit steep.
i was charged 65 quid at AVA and all i got was a severely rich setup that had my car tanning a tank of fuel every week

but as said...people have to make living and cover expenses...so who knos what prices we can expect in the future.

credit crunch wil probably raise the figure

:(

[Guybrush]

Have always paid £25 for a power run which included the air / fuel, boost pressure and connecting an external knock sensor + the knowledge and advice of the tuner. Mind you the last one was 8 months ago now. I am well aware things are going up.

Yup, £25 is what i'd consider to be fair...
I wouldn't expect any knowledge/advice from the tuner tho, just a printout with afr, power and torque.

If they're taking a feed off for boost pressure, then i'd expect to pay a little more.

Thing is, the price should be publicised before the day, so if people don't want to pay the cash.... then they don't have to turn up. :)

[warpspeed]

Yup, £25 is what i'd consider to be fair...
I wouldn't expect any knowledge/advice from the tuner tho, just a printout with afr, power and torque.

If they're taking a feed off for boost pressure, then i'd expect to pay a little more.

Thing is, the price should be publicised before the day, so if people don't want to pay the cash.... then they don't have to turn up. :)

It is stated at the beginning of the thread that if 15-20 are run the price is £35/run, but i decided to make it £35/run no matter how many turned up since i am in the club myself and have a 5. If it had been any other clubs the pricing policy would have been stuck to more closely.

[clee]

I think we've established that everyone else thinks it's a fair price and that Mud is by his own admission ' a tight arsed Jock ' ;)

[Mudslinger]

I didnt bring my 5 along to get anything more than a power and torque figure , which is what i got :)

the car was on and off the rollers in less than 10 mins ,i only asked if peeps thought it was value for money or not ..

but yeah i suppose your right i am a tight ass Jock .

AVA charge £65 per hour for a 2wd rolling road sessions where time will be spent making adjustments and making improvements if poss ,they charge £25 for power runs on rolling road days .

[warpspeed]

Ok i can see your point about the prices but AVA don't give power at the flywheel or torque figures, now i don't want to get into a slagging match, each to his or her own. I chose a DASTEK dyno as it's just about the most accurate, i could have bought others for £15k or even a full 4wd set-up for about £45k but felt that accuracy and repeatablity were the most important aspects to using a dyno. These reasons are why i'm defending the prices. Anyway enough said i don't want arguments with anybody, i do things my may and others do it theirs, doesn't mean either way is wrong :)

[Ricardo]

If i need to use a rolling road facility i have no qualms in going to Track N Road Powerformance in Rainham, Essex. My old white R5 GT Turbo blew a hole in the block, when we dropped another C1J back in i booked the 5 on the rollers to check the fuelling. They couldn't even get it going through the rev range as it was running lean, the same coming on boost. So whilst the car was still strapped to the rollers we were allowed to remove the carb and Mart (legend) worked on it and was put back on the car.

Much better and in the 2 hours the 5 was the rollers we had quite a few power runs constantly making sure the carb was fuelled ok throughout the rev range, also adjusting the boost pressure.

I was charged £80 (£40 an hour) for the use of the rollers and 1 of the operatives driving the 5 on the rollers giving us as many runs as we needed in that 2 hours. I'd rather spend the £80 than go through blowing another engine, also the 2 chaps that own/run Track N Road are very very helpful too, so much knowledge between them.

[James5]

If i need to use a rolling road facility i have no qualms in going to Track N Road Powerformance in Rainham, Essex. My old white R5 GT Turbo blew a hole in the block, when we dropped another C1J back in i booked the 5 on the rollers to check the fuelling. They couldn't even get it going through the rev range as it was running lean, the same coming on boost. So whilst the car was still strapped to the rollers we were allowed to remove the carb and Mart (legend) worked on it and was put back on the car.

Much better and in the 2 hours the 5 was the rollers we had quite a few power runs constantly making sure the carb was fuelled ok throughout the rev range, also adjusting the boost pressure.

I was charged £80 (£40 an hour) for the use of the rollers and 1 of the operatives driving the 5 on the rollers giving us as many runs as we needed in that 2 hours. I'd rather spend the £80 than go through blowing another engine, also the 2 chaps that own/run Track N Road are very very helpful too, so much knowledge between them.


He's a bit of a moddy git before your car gets on the rollers and doesn't say much until he has finished and then you just can't shut him up :laugh:

[Mudslinger]

Ok i can see your point about the prices but AVA don't give power at the flywheel or torque figures, now i don't want to get into a slagging match, each to his or her own. I chose a DASTEK dyno as it's just about the most accurate, i could have bought others for £15k or even a full 4wd set-up for about £45k but felt that accuracy and repeatablity were the most important aspects to using a dyno. These reasons are why i'm defending the prices. Anyway enough said i don't want arguments with anybody, i do things my may and others do it theirs, doesn't mean either way is wrong :)

I dont want a slagging match either

[Mart]

He's a bit of a moddy git before your car gets on the rollers and doesn't say much until he has finished and then you just can't shut him up :laugh:

Me, or Steve @ Track & Road? :D

[Ricardo]

Me, or Steve @ Track & Road? :D

:laugh:

My only gripe was the burger van that was there didn't have a tea urn!! :cry:

[Mudslinger]

would a loose boost hose cause the boost to fluctuate like it done on the rollers ?

i was out yesterday and blew a boost hose off , stopped and fixed it , went for another run and i still got no boost, there was another section that was loose but still attached behind the bumper, im wondering if this couldve contributed to the fluctuating boost readings i got on sat .

it was like the s/s pipe was sliding in and out of the silicon pipe but could not have came right off as there was only so much it could move .

[warpspeed]

would a loose boost hose cause the boost to fluctuate like it done on the rollers ?

i was out yesterday and blew a boost hose off , stopped and fixed it , went for another run and i still got no boost, there was another section that was loose but still attached behind the bumper, im wondering if this couldve contributed to the fluctuating boost readings i got on sat .

it was like the s/s pipe was sliding in and out of the silicon pipe but could not have came right off as there was only so much it could move .

Yes it is a posibility that the hose is expanding and letting the boost out then once its out the hose will seal up again, is it mikalor or like clamps that you have? if not get them! and horse them up!

[Mudslinger]

all the clamps u see are mikalor , but the ones behind the bumper that connect from the i/c are run of the mill jubilee clips , i went round the full boost circuit and tightend/checked them all , there was a few that were needing nipped up :crap:

[Andrew Cooke]

if your boost curve from the dyno looks like the one I sketched from you AVA plot I'd say its a controller setup issue. Are you using electronic boost control? If not look at a softer wastegate spring so that it opens further when you overboost. Maybe look at that anyway.

[Mudslinger]

that maywell be the case Andy ,the boost is controlled via ECU so i guess thats what you mean, im planning on trying to get rid of the niggles then ive to take it back to AVA to have it checked ,im considering taking the throttles off to get them rebalanced , it seems the throttle posistion sensor is pulsing , u might have noticed that ive moved it back to the hot side , it seems to wok better there but still has issues .

After finding that sliding boost hose its making me think it couldve been like that for a while , just like what Scott posted holding boost then losing some as its expanding ,but im certainly going to get the boost control looked at , ive not plumbed the spa boost gauge in yet so need to do that and ill be able to see my self whats happining.

[Mudslinger]

oh and 2 weeks of having the car back im done in already , strained a muscle in my back with stooping over the engine bay :crap: went to work this morning and was like a half shut knife when i got out the car , managed to stay till lunch time i was in so much discomfort so came home .pumped up with pain killers now :coffee:

[Mart]

Mud, have you tried plumbing/running the actuator straight off the comp' housing, rather than letting the ecu do the work?

[Mudslinger]

Mud, have you tried plumbing/running the actuator straight off the comp' housing, rather than letting the ecu do the work?

I havent no , im unsure if AVA did or not ,but its certainly something to try if the ecu is having problems controlling the boost.