View Full Version : Big problems :(
Right peeps, got the F7R fired up yesterday to met with a massive cloud of oil smoke, I thought turbo but it turns out no.4 was filling with oil :( just got the head off to met with nothing, everything looks mint, only thing I can think of is the head gasket didn't take but ive never heard of an MLS hg not sealing.
Any ideas?
Adey aka Ewok
22-05-2011, 17:36
is it an after market hg or are they mls stock? could need a bit more torque than an oe one to seal? did you use new head bolts?
is it an after market hg or are they mls stock? could need a bit more torque than an oe one to seal? did you use new head bolts?
Cometic MLS gasket, brand new head bolts off the club shop, torque was 90 instead of the factory 65 so that weren't the problem :(
Piston rings have now got a clean bill of health, so its either the head gasket or the head, head looks mint so I'm gunna stick an OE gasket on and see what happens, wish me luck
steer from the rear
22-05-2011, 20:00
multi layer steel on a f7r? hope your deck was as flat as your head! from what i understand and have read it needs to be a almost machined flat surface which is what i did for my f4r which is why i think it sealed. :scared: you will be so much better off with a std gasket, it will allow for more deviations in the deck and be a better weak link when it blows up next week ;)
multi layer steel on a f7r? hope your deck was as flat as your head! from what i understand and have read it needs to be a almost machined flat surface which is what i did for my f4r which is why i think it sealed. :scared: you will be so much better off with a std gasket, it will allow for more deviations in the deck and be a better weak link when it blows up next week ;)
Well the head and blocked were checked by the machine shop so that shouldn't have been a problem, gunna try a OE gasket Tuesday and see how it goes.
What makes you think it'll blow up next week?
Andrew Cooke
22-05-2011, 20:37
tap out the threads in the block and screw the bolts in by hand to check that they don't bottom out before they'd clamp the head.
tap out the threads in the block and screw the bolts in by hand to check that they don't bottom out before they'd clamp the head.
I did that during the original build
Tony Walker
22-05-2011, 20:45
overfilled with oil? valve guides worn, breathers blocked, exhaust full of oil?
overfilled with oil? valve guides worn, breathers blocked, exhaust full of oil?
Oil was just above min, valve guides were spot on, breathers were brand new, exhaust is only full of oil after i started it, there was no oil before hand, defo oil getting in the bore, 3 plugs came out fine, no.4 came out dripping with oil, head off should the piston covered in oil
Tony Walker
22-05-2011, 21:14
is it a complete rebuild? made sure your rings and oil scrapers where in correct positions? full of oil is a weird one, did you check compression before taking head off?
turbo ted
22-05-2011, 21:14
check the mls gasket for oil marks between the layers of gasket i had this problem on my c1j when i used a mls gasket as the oil was getting across threw the layers of gasket went back to a standard one in the end.Block and head have to be skimmed to use these mls gaskets to make sure you got true flatness thats what was done to mine f7p turbo;)
is it a complete rebuild? made sure your rings and oil scrapers where in correct positions? full of oil is a weird one, did you check compression before taking head off?
Yep complete rebuild, pistons, rods, bored block the works
check the mls gasket for oil marks between the layers of gasket i had this problem on my c1j when i used a mls gasket as the oil was getting across threw the layers of gasket went back to a standard one in the end.Block and head have to be skimmed to use these mls gaskets to make sure you got true flatness thats what was done to mine f7p turbo;)
Let me go check
check the mls gasket for oil marks between the layers of gasket i had this problem on my c1j when i used a mls gasket as the oil was getting across threw the layers of gasket went back to a standard one in the end.Block and head have to be skimmed to use these mls gaskets to make sure you got true flatness thats what was done to mine f7p turbo;)
Yep there's oil in-between the layers of the gaskets, I guess that confirms it, the gasket didn't seal properly, OE gasket is in then
There's countless issues with the Cometic gaskets, the Nissan guys steer well clear of them as they go prematurely quite often, and have sealing issues.
TNT ANDY
23-05-2011, 07:01
Yep there's oil in-between the layers of the gaskets, I guess that confirms it, the gasket didn't seal properly, OE gasket is in then
sounds promising - now get on and whip Handy around that track.
sounds promising - now get on and whip Handy around that track.
Wont be a problem ;)
TNT ANDY
23-05-2011, 19:58
Wont be a problem ;)
That's more like it - welcome back.
Ok wasn't the head gasket :(
Adey aka Ewok
25-05-2011, 22:34
whats cracked?
Rob@Backyardracing
25-05-2011, 22:40
Cometic gaskets are used by most of the high power honda boys with no probs at all.. I wouldnt blame the gasket, id blame the finishes in most cases..
Ok wasn't the head gasket :(
get some pics uploaded., 300 eye's are better than 2 sometimes matey...
get some pics uploaded., 300 eye's are better than 2 sometimes matey...
Haven't got the head off yet, when I get a chance tomorrow after work I'll get some pics up but there's nothing major to look at other than the piston covered in oil
TNT ANDY
25-05-2011, 23:09
tap out the threads in the block and screw the bolts in by hand to check that they don't bottom out before they'd clamp the head.
And again?
:confused:
boostjunky
25-05-2011, 23:20
tap out the threads in the block and screw the bolts in by hand to check that they don't bottom out before they'd clamp the head.
That is good advice - unfortunately I learned this the hard way :ashamed:
After a sterling effort by Handy we go it started, albeit with no exhaust at all so it pissed off the neighbours lol but next to no smoke, can't be 100% sure all is well till I've got everything back together and had it running for a good 15mins to clear it's guts but things are looking up.
Did a compression check before taking the head off and got
No.1 180psi
No.2 180psi
No.3 190psi
No.4 210psi
So we discounted rings and chose not to pull the piston out and concentrated on other possible causes.
What did we find you ask, well it looks like the locating dowels were stopping the head gasket from sealing properly.
Much appreciated for the help Handy, I owe you a domino's
After a sterling effort by Handy we go it started, albeit with no exhaust at all so it pissed off the neighbours lol but next to no smoke, can't be 100% sure all is well till I've got everything back together and had it running for a good 15mins to clear it's guts but things are looking up.
Did a compression check before taking the head off and got
No.1 180psi
No.2 180psi
No.3 190psi
No.4 210psi
So we discounted rings and chose not to pull the piston out and concentrated on other possible causes.
What did we find you ask, well it looks like the locating dowels were stopping the head gasket from sealing properly.
Much appreciated for the help Handy, I owe you a domino's
:agree::smokin:
TNT ANDY
27-05-2011, 06:27
Nice one Olski - glad you're getting it sorted, you'll be up and running by 1.45pm next Friday, smoking off the rebuild oil and smeg as you roll up to 5 ways. LOL
:agree:
Nice one Olski - glad you're getting it sorted, you'll be up and running by 1.45pm next Friday, smoking off the rebuild oil and smeg as you roll up to 5 ways. LOL
:agree:
Dude I'll be driving it into bury Saturday night to get some miles on it if all goes to plan but I'm not getting my hopes up yet
Bugger, it wasn't the locating dowls causing the problem, nor is it the head bolt holes being dirty.
Pulled the head off and done what I shoulda done the first time and pulled out piston no.4 to check the rings, there intact but they have shifted, they weren't totally online but they were bloody close, I think it's the type of ring compressor I have that caused it but don't know for sure, hopefully by the end of today I'll know either way if it'll make national day.
Wish me luck
Nope still smokes, its not a full on blue smoke, more of a white with a blue tint but there's no sign of oil mixing with water and the only thing we find in the bores is oil, we by passed the turbo to make sure but still no change.
At idle or there abouts the smoke is less but as u increase the revs it smokes more and more, took it for a drive to see if it would clear but nothing.
As it stands it won't make it to national day, please someone save me:cry:
have you gone onto boost? maybe it just needs a good thrashing to get the rings to dig in a bit, i know it fixed my 5 when it wouldnt stop smoking
bed it in fast and it'll always be fast is my cousins moto when it comes to 5's :laugh:
have you gone onto boost? maybe it just needs a good thrashing to get the rings to dig in a bit, i know it fixed my 5 when it wouldnt stop smoking
bed it in fast and it'll always be fast is my cousins moto when it comes to 5's :laugh:
I've read this as well, you need to load the rings then let it run down on the engine, then load, do this a few times in 3rd or 4th up to about 5k, thats how I'm going to do mine, warm up to temp, drop oil, change filter, load rings as above on low boost, then turn boost up a bit & drive about normally with a bit of boosting for 100 miles otr so, another oil change, then give it more boost & more rvs for a few hundred miles then death after that, another oil change around 1000 miles.
TNT ANDY
31-05-2011, 06:58
Nope still smokes, its not a full on blue smoke, more of a white with a blue tint but there's no sign of oil mixing with water and the only thing we find in the bores is oil, we by passed the turbo to make sure but still no change.
At idle or there abouts the smoke is less but as u increase the revs it smokes more and more, took it for a drive to see if it would clear but nothing.
As it stands it won't make it to national day, please someone save me:cry:
Have you still got your C1J :cooter:
Have you still got your C1J :cooter:
Nope :(
Is the head flat?
Yes, perfectly flat
have you gone onto boost? maybe it just needs a good thrashing to get the rings to dig in a bit, i know it fixed my 5 when it wouldnt stop smoking
bed it in fast and it'll always be fast is my cousins moto when it comes to 5's :laugh:
Cant as the trigger pattern is causing issues, looks like I need a stand alone trigger wheel before I can make any progress
Pretty sure the volvo 200mm flywheel works with adaptronic, should work with other aftermarket ecu's as well.
Pretty sure the volvo 200mm flywheel works with adaptronic, should work with other aftermarket ecu's as well.
It worked on omex on my mates car but he did change the sensor as he said the oe one was crap.
It worked on omex on my mates car but he did change the sensor as he said the oe one was crap.
good call , did mention that the pick up might be causing an issue last night:(
but ollie said it was mm perfect on the wheel, as regards to engine he has now realised the rings need bedding in, so all in all a lot of panic over very little , 10 mins of google searching :laugh::laugh:
good call , did mention that the pick up might be causing an issue last night:(
but ollie said it was mm perfect on the wheel, as regards to engine he has now realised the rings need bedding in, so all in all a lot of panic over very little , 10 mins of google searching :laugh::laugh:
Andy u werent supposed to tell them that, I'm gunna have to tell them about your car not restarting even though we had the fueling spot on
Adey aka Ewok
31-05-2011, 14:58
Had to change the tdc sensor on both my clios as the sensor started playing up, I use a ford one now
i will just blame it on that leaky fuel cell ;):laugh::laugh::wasntme:
Had to change the tdc sensor on both my clios as the sensor started playing up, I use a ford one now
from what Ford? does it have same fitment to the JC5 box?
i will just blame it on that leaky fuel cell ;):laugh::laugh::wasntme:
Nothing to do with fact we'd used all the fuel up and 45minstrying to figure out why it wouldn't restart :rolleyes:
Adey aka Ewok
31-05-2011, 16:19
from what Ford? does it have same fitment to the JC5 box?
No mate had to use an adapter, I'll find out what it's off tho, black top zetec rings a bell tho?
TNT ANDY
03-06-2011, 06:34
Nothing to do with fact we'd used all the fuel up and 45minstrying to figure out why it wouldn't restart :rolleyes:
Did you change the cranking fuel value's???
Did you change the cranking fuel value's???
Yeah we kept richining it up but the plugs were dry, the values we were at the bore woulda been full of fuel, I think our next step was pull the reg off and check it weren't blocked, then the immortal question "Andy has it got any petrol in the tank?":rolleyes:
Big thanks to Turbo Ted for Saturday, not just for taking me out for a blatant in ya track slag 19 but for also checking the oil which showed me what was wrong with mine.........
Renault sold me the wrong dipstick, been over filling the oil by about 2 litres, drained the oil to the minimum Mark and have been running it, funny enough the smoke has started to get better.
Big thanks to Turbo Ted for Saturday, not just for taking me out for a blatant in ya track slag 19 but for also checking the oil which showed me what was wrong with mine.........
Renault sold me the wrong dipstick, been over filling the oil by about 2 litres, drained the oil to the minimum Mark and have been running it, funny enough the smoke has started to get better.
Out of interest, does it have a black or blue dot on the top, I had two dipsticks, one was the black dot, the other blue, I used the blue which had the max & min marks closer than the black dot one, if that makes sense.
Oli glad you found out what the problem was:agree:, I will make a note of it for when I get my engine back in as I have both dipsticks aswell and can't remember which one was for my sump:eek:
There's no dot on it, the correct 1 has the marks close together, about 25mm apart I recon, I'll measure it properly later
There's no dot on it, the correct 1 has the marks close together, about 25mm apart I recon, I'll measure it properly later
:agree:
Blue dot then, I have the correct one in that means :)
Does it take 5.1l of oil ?
:agree:
Blue dot then, I have the correct one in that means :)
Does it take 5.1l of oil ?
Yeah that sounds about right
Cometic MLS gasket, brand new head bolts off the club shop, torque was 90 instead of the factory 65 so that weren't the problem :(
Piston rings have now got a clean bill of health, so its either the head gasket or the head, head looks mint so I'm gunna stick an OE gasket on and see what happens, wish me luck
Olly one thing has always stuck in my head with your thread and that is the 90nm as I have been doing search after search after search myself on the F7p and F7r and i have found that the F7p and F7r torque sequence is the same be it for the stretch or non stretch bolts only difference being the non stretch bolts you can prob re-use a couple of times and just need to do the final 2 stages. And the sequence is always that fecking 6 stage crap, are you sure you done it right.
stage one..30nm
stage two..angle tighten by 50 degrees
stage three..wait for 3 minutes
stage four...loosen all bolts completely
stage five..25nm
stage six...angle tighten by 108 degrees +-3 degrees
I know you found the cause was ring to bore clearance but are you sure you have the correct headbolt setting's? just don't want to see you have any more problems as I know how frustrasting it all is:agree:
Interesting that you found the f7r required all that crap, I looked at it and **** myself thinking how hard it all looked but while at my local Renault stealership I asked about it and they said it's just there to put off DIY mechanics :eek: and that it makes feckless all difference, just wind the bolts down hard and it'll be fine.
This seemed to good to be true so I asked at a machine shop and they said the same thing, so basically bolloxs to all that angle crap :D aslong as the bolts are done in the correct order which happens to be the same as a GTT's head bolt sequence there shouldn't be a problem
rs250nut
14-07-2011, 23:17
90nm in one go or in stages?
Tony Walker
14-07-2011, 23:29
Pretty much all heads tighten the same sequence, the angles vary alot tho. basically theres less error with angles than torque settings. if the threads are dirty, some water in there or one bolt oiled and the other not then it will require different forces to tighten the same amount. where as nipping them to the initial 25-30nm on most heads , then giving every bolt the exact same angle tightening sequence means there is more likely to be even pressure across the head. deffinetly let it rest for a few mins after each step.... usually most heads are 20-30nm first stage then two angles. You should have a look at the torque setting for the volvo t5 engines, b5244t3 engine code. with a normal 3/8 torque ratchet you will really struggle to tighten them enough. :eek:
90nm in one go or in stages?
Finger tight on all ten then hammer the f**kers down to 90nm in order, job done
Tony Walker
15-07-2011, 20:32
You wouldnt want to wind one to 90 then leave it tho. that first bolt wouldnt be 90nm by the time all the other bolts have squashed the gasket, more so with fibre than a metal gasket.
rs250nut
15-07-2011, 21:06
Finger tight on all ten then hammer the f**kers down to 90nm in order, job done
Crazy, its never going to be right doing it like that:(
Ok I didn't wind them straight down to 90nm, I did them all finger tight, then all to 30nm, all to 60nm, all to 75nm and then finally to 90nm
Oli, there is a guy on clio16valver.co.uk selling a 7R bottom end for £50 with new water pump, he's in essex.
Oli, there is a guy on clio16valver.co.uk selling a 7R bottom end for £50 with new water pump, he's in essex.
No need fella, tis all hand, got an f7p block at a machine shop getting some tweaks :)
Oli, there is a guy on clio16valver.co.uk selling a 7R bottom end for £50 with new water pump, he's in essex.
No need fella, tis all hand, got an f7p block at a machine shop getting some tweaks :)
Thanks for the help though
No need fella, tis all hand, got an f7p block at a machine shop getting some tweaks :)
Thanks for the help though
:agree:
No need fella, tis all hand, got an f7p block at a machine shop getting some tweaks :)
Sounds good, so are you slipping the williams crank and bit's in to the F7p or just having the F7p crank sorted after the slipped bearing and using your pistons on the f7P rods and just boreing out the block to the correct size.
Fingers crossed after all this it comes together for you:agree:
steer from the rear
19-07-2011, 17:01
Sounds good, so are you slipping the williams crank and bit's in to the F7p or just having the F7p crank sorted after the slipped bearing and using your pistons on the f7P rods and just boreing out the block to the correct size.
Fingers crossed after all this it comes together for you:agree:
To be honest what I want from my engine and the turbo I'm going to use I wished I never used such a long throw engine and used the f7p now, u can't rev the bloody things from what I've read :cry: if I were u I'd really stick to the f7p. I can't see 200cc's making that much of a difference?
Sounds good, so are you slipping the williams crank and bit's in to the F7p or just having the F7p crank sorted after the slipped bearing and using your pistons on the f7P rods and just boreing out the block to the correct size.
Fingers crossed after all this it comes together for you:agree:
Well the plan was to chuck the 2.0ltr guts in the 1.8ltr block but a phone call from the machine shop today changed that plan :( seems I may have jumped at scholar blaming them but it turns out although the bores are slighty different there's no more than a thou difference accross all four.
They are going to test the rings tomorrow but they recon it's the oil scrapper ring on no.4 that's faulty
To be honest what I want from my engine and the turbo I'm going to use I wished I never used such a long throw engine and used the f7p now, u can't rev the bloody things from what I've read :cry: if I were u I'd really stick to the f7p. I can't see 200cc's making that much of a difference?
I've heard that too but I've been out in both Coop's 1.8turbo Clio and a turbo'd Williams I could see a difference but not enough that I'd panic about
You reckon you done the rings with too much oil Oli ?
steer from the rear
19-07-2011, 17:58
I did read HILL POWER used 1.8 blocks and made 2.0 blocks out of them and I think it was the clio 1.9 diesel crank but I've never seen one, I've a f7r 710 block if ur ever after a 2.0 block and I've a 2 f7p engines if u need bits, I've yet to strip them to see if there serviceable though
You reckon you done the rings with too much oil Oli ?
Don't think so, I recon the ring was faulty from new, why would only 1 fail and the first time I ran it up I didn't fill it up full
I did read HILL POWER used 1.8 blocks and made 2.0 blocks out of them and I think it was the clio 1.9 diesel crank but I've never seen one, I've a f7r 710 block if ur ever after a 2.0 block and I've a 2 f7p engines if u need bits, I've yet to strip them to see if there serviceable though
Mines an f7r 710 engine aswell, u wouldn't happen to have the reg of the car your engine came out of would ya?
TNT ANDY
19-07-2011, 18:23
Well the plan was to chuck the 2.0ltr guts in the 1.8ltr block but a phone call from the machine shop today changed that plan :( seems I may have jumped at scholar blaming them but it turns out although the bores are slighty different there's no more than a thou difference accross all four.
They are going to test the rings tomorrow but they recon it's the oil scrapper ring on no.4 that's faulty
At least you're not barking up that tree any more - I would have been staggered if as competent a machine shop such as Scholar had screwed up.
Hope it's the rings dude, and from what you have written so far, it can only be that.
Not long now then.
:agree::agree::agree::agree:
JP Racing
19-07-2011, 18:42
oli we gave you a list of things to look at and rings was the first one on the list :rolleyes: always start with the cheapest option first then work your way up if unsure of what it is ;)
nevermind lets just hope that it fixes the problem and you can sell the f7p bottom end to marky b who will need a few for spares :D
oli we gave you a list of things to look at and rings was the first one on the list :rolleyes: always start with the cheapest option first then work your way up if unsure of what it is ;)
nevermind lets just hope that it fixes the problem and you can sell the f7p bottom end to marky b who will need a few for spares :D
Did look at the rings but they looked ok, if they are at fault then it must be some defect that u cant see, wrong size, wrong spring rate who knows
The F7P block is shorter than the F7R so you can't just bore the 1800cc one out. I guess you could run pistons with less compression height or something. But does the 93mm crank go in OK too ? I think that might want to clobber stuff.
steer from the rear
20-07-2011, 15:24
Mines an f7r 710 engine aswell, u wouldn't happen to have the reg of the car your engine came out of would ya?
Sorry mate I don't it was just a £80 quid engine on ebay he didn't even know that it was a sort after engine
Sorry mate I don't it was just a £80 quid engine on ebay he didn't even know that it was a sort after engine
It's not really sort after, it's only rare cus no one bought the car it came in, it's the Clio Williams 2.0ltr people want
steer from the rear
20-07-2011, 18:12
It's not really sort after, it's only rare cus no one bought the car it came in, it's the Clio Williams 2.0ltr people want
From what I've seen of the 710 to the 700 f7r I wouldn't of payed 265 quid for a williams block 4 years ago lol is it 147bhp to the william's 150bhp? I'd buy them left right and centre for parts if I could and they had jc5 box I think?
The F7P block is shorter than the F7R so you can't just bore the 1800cc one out. I guess you could run pistons with less compression height or something. But does the 93mm crank go in OK too ? I think that might want to clobber stuff.
Interesting as I measured both my f7r block and a f7p block and they came up the same??? I know the crank isn't a direct fit, part of the webbing on rear inside wall of the block needs machine for it to fit but as far as I can tell it would work just fine
From what I've seen of the 710 to the 700 f7r I wouldn't of payed 265 quid for a williams block 4 years ago lol is it 147bhp to the william's 150bhp? I'd buy them left right and centre for parts if I could and they had jc5 box I think?
At the end of the day there is only tiny differences between the four versions of the f7r
The 700 was fitted to the Williams Clio with a valver head but much larger valves than the 1.8, made 150bhp
The 710 was fitted to the early megane coupes, this differed from the 700 by having a whole new head with smaller inlet ports but bigger valves and milder cams, still made 150bhp approx.
The 714 was fitted to the late Megane's and the early Spiders with very little changes over the 710 apart from the shallow sump, 150bhp approx.
The 720 was only ever found in the later Spiders, the main difference is the oil pump is now driven by a chain off the crank instead of by the cambelt, this version was to later become the base for the f4r, albeit with a different head design, still only 150bhp
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