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5 GT Turbo > I hate to admit defeat, but in this case I've been well beaten... **UPDATED**
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Right chaps, someone must have the answer to this problem as I've run out of ideas and enthusiasm.
Following on from this thread (http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=21403) my white 5 has areally annoying problem... It smokes heavily.
So It started off as an unknown engine and turbo
and it smoked.
I did a comp test and it was very low, 80psi on all pots.
So i pulled the lump out and replaced it with a different bottom end.
I then replaced the turbo with a T2 that was working when it came off the car.
And it stilled smoked
So I fitted a T3 turbo which I know didn't smoke...
And it stilled smoked
So I pulled it all apart again, skimmed the head, rebuilt it, lapped all the valves in, fitted new guides and put it all back together with a new T25 turbo.
And guess what.... Yes It still smoked!!
I thought maybe it was water leaking into the engine, maybe the inlet manifold or carb base was damaged and leaking water into the engine. So I by-passed both so there was no water flowing through... And Its still smoking!!
So I've just done a compression test... 140 - 145psi on all pots....
Now I'm completely lost for ideas, sick as a chip and seriously thinking of putting it on ebay for a few hundred quid.
Please help before I take a box of matches to it.
Ashy.:confused:
Forgot to say, the weird thing is it runs lovely, starts first time, idles smooth as you like and drives really nice.... :scratch:
raider_gtt
17-04-2011, 21:42
Forgot to say, the weird thing is it runs lovely, starts first time, idles smooth as you like and drives really nice.... :scratch:
well its got to be carb setup is not right then or rings aint put in right make sure that the water is clean and with Antifreeze;)
could be water in the exhaust system if just burning off ?????
u dont say what colour the smoke is as well so im just guessing
Oh and it cant be the breathers becasue I've blocked the one into the back of the inlet manifold off. And theres no breather running into the telephone hose.
The smoke is white....
Nial, did you run the engine without the turbo in place?? did you see any oil coming out of the manifold outlet??
Does seem weird how different engine and same problem:scratch:
Nial, did you run the engine without the turbo in place?? did you see any oil coming out of the manifold outlet??
Does seem weird how different engine and same problem:scratch:
Nah, never run it without the turbo in place mate, might give it a try...
Tony Walker
17-04-2011, 22:03
coolant hoses running through carb??? possible internal crack somehow? How long have you run it for? steam isnt a big deal so long as your not loosing coolant.
coolant hoses running through carb??? possible internal crack somehow? How long have you run it for? steam isnt a big deal so long as your not loosing coolant.
Like I said mate, I did think that so I bypassed the inlet manifold and carb base.... I haven't run it for ages but went for a 6 mile drive and it didn't improve. It smokes badly whilst driving, its not a massive problem but it looks terrible...
Oh and I've changed the oil return pipe (metal bit) to make sure it wasn't blocked and the rubber drain hose isn't kinked...
Tony Walker
17-04-2011, 22:22
if its white then its water, are you loosing coolant?? if the exhaust is full of crap it will take a good run to clear out.
Is it the same cylinder head all along ashy ? If so, did you have it pressure tested when you had it skimmed ? Saying that, you probably skimmed it at work.
Maybe the head is fubar. It only takes a crack. Not enough to pressurise the coolant too much, but enough to make it steam.
Failing that, maybe you're ignoring the obvious ? Could it just be a bit of moisture in the engine/exhaust/etc ? Have you tried a hard drive up and down the motorway for an hour or 2 ? Whenever I killed the old C1J it would chuck oil and/or water into the exhaust which took some considerable time and heat to burn off after I'd rebuilt :)
PS, any joy with that axle ? If not, no probs, I'll put the word out local.
Tony Walker
17-04-2011, 22:38
has the head had alot of porting done to it? perhaps a crack somehow in to one of the ports ??
Forgot to add ive fitted an oil pressure gauge and I get 50psi whilst driving and 20 - 30 psi whilst at idle. I haven't been for a big run down the motorway, its so smokey I worry ill get pulled!
Like you say scoff it got skimmed at work so I didn't pressure test it, i did think it might be the head as ive had that before on a heavily ported one where it had cracked into an exhaust port and had a similar issue! It did have a different head on the original engine, so it is possible that it was originally a smokey bottom end and now its a smokey head?
The rear beam has your name on it mate, but I dont know if ill be able to remove it before I come down next weekend. I will let you know!
Give it an Italian tune up. :)
are the stem seals done ? and fitted right ?
dunno if anyone said it already
are the stem seals done ? and fitted right ?
dunno if anyone said it already
Yup, new ones fitted... TBH though I've run Gt's without stem seals and they haven't smoked at all (After start up).
I was wondering... To check the head I might just run the engine up to temp and then pressurise the header tank upto 1bar.... whip the plugs out and the turbo off and see if any water leaks into the bores (depending on the combination of which valves are open and where the crack is) or into the exhaust manifold...
Other than that its going to be another head swap...?
White smoke, sounds like coolant slighly leaking into cylinder. Even though the head has been skimmed, it worth getting it pressure checked; could be a cracked or porous head
You were getting smoke from the hot side of the turbo last time and that has gone hasn't it? It smoked more on gear changes I thought.
I suppose keeping an eye on the coolant level while pressurising it will tell you if you have a leak othen than that take it out for a blast after work for a red arrows show :wasntme:
and a good run out.
Woznaldo
18-04-2011, 10:48
Ashy, unless you've physically seen the insides of all the parts you've replaced or they are new or recon'd, you cannot say they are serviceable. List the things you are 100% on and maybe double check the rest?
I'd say given what you've checked/changed, it can only be either:
- a cracked/porous head like the others are saying
- a warped block face
- a crack in one of the block's water ways
:(
Thing is, with good pot pressure, can it really be one of the above?
Ashy, unless you've physically seen the insides of all the parts you've replaced or they are new or recon'd, you cannot say they are serviceable. List the things you are 100% on and maybe double check the rest?
Thats just the turbo then... Everything else is 2nd hand / used.
I'd say given what you've checked/changed, it can only be either:
- a cracked/porous head like the others are saying
- a warped block face
- a crack in one of the block's water ways
:(
Thing is, with good pot pressure, can it really be one of the above?
The only thing would be, if it were the cracked head, and the water was leaking down into an inlet or exhaust port and either passing through the engine, or dropping straight into the exhaust manifold. This wouldn't show up on the compression test as it is behind the valves. But yes a comp test would show if the head gasked wasn't sealing around the tops of the liners (which it clearly is).
As the block doesnt really have waterways, its more of a water jacket, so if it were cracked it would be either leaking out (into fresh air) or mixing with oil.... Its doing neither of these.
It all points to a dodgy head... I'll whip the blower off tonight and run it without the turbo fitted....
You were getting smoke from the hot side of the turbo last time and that has gone hasn't it? It smoked more on gear changes I thought.
I suppose keeping an eye on the coolant level while pressurising it will tell you if you have a leak othen than that take it out for a blast after work for a red arrows show :wasntme:
and a good run out.
Thats whats strange george, its not been consistant... I'm using the same parts except I've skimmed the head and fitted a new turbo.
The only thing would be, if it were the cracked head, and the water was leaking down into an inlet or exhaust port and either passing through the engine, or dropping straight into the exhaust manifold. This wouldn't show up on the compression test as it is behind the valves. But yes a comp test would show if the head gasked wasn't sealing around the tops of the liners (which it clearly is).
As the block doesnt really have waterways, its more of a water jacket, so if it were cracked it would be either leaking out (into fresh air) or mixing with oil.... Its doing neither of these.
It all points to a dodgy head... I'll whip the blower off tonight and run it without the turbo fitted....
:agree:
Tony Walker
19-04-2011, 20:54
Personally, i'd drive it and monitor coolant loss. if your not loosing coolant then :agree: happy days, if you want to test turbo coolant jacket just join the turbo pipes. IMO give it a good run
mine was smoking on gear changes really bad as if a stem seal had popped off after a full rebuild, tried gently bedding the rings in but it still smoked after 50 miles
so in the end it was either break it or fix it
went for a good flat out full boost run through 1st to 4th a few times soon sorted it out and it hasn't smoked since :smokin:
Right guys... Decided that I'd get an adaptor plate made up to blank the front of the turbo off so that I could run the car with no turbo fitted... as below.
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Whitey/blank_off.jpg
Just been out for a drive and there’s no smoke at all At last.... :wasntme:
So I guess I've just been really unlucky with my turbos...?? :confused:
Could it be that the car is making too much oil pressure and forcing oil past the seals? could it be the oil is too thin 10w40?
I just don’t see how 2 known working turbo's smoked and the new e-bay turbo also smokes?!? too much of a coincidence?
Tony Walker
20-04-2011, 21:25
:S strange, i have heard of people having to have restrictors fitted to the oil feeds on turbos, i wouldnt of thought a c1j would be producing too much pressure, allthough your pressures do sound quite high. have you shimmed your oil pump?? maybe check your oil return pipes are ok? oil level too high? tough one really. i wouldnt of said 3 turbos would be at fault but....... never say never :eek:
Yo, yeah weird isn't it...
Funny that the one that smoked the least was the T3, wonder if it was becasuse everythings a bit bigger and more robust. I dont know if the oil pump has been shimmed tbh, its just what was in the engine I fitted (Don't really know anything about it). I've changed the oil feed pipe and both oil drain pipes (rubber and metal).
What oil pressure is normal on a C1J?
Matt Cole
20-04-2011, 21:34
How's the oil return pipe / sump and breather pot setup marrow? Phase 1 sump? It could be that the oil path through the turbo/sump is restrictive which would mean oil pressure build up at the core?
Tony Walker
20-04-2011, 21:44
autodata recommends 3.2bar/46psi at 4000rpm at 80degrees c i wouldnt say your pressures are too high.. just very good :), up to temp mines about 15psi at udle and 35psi at 4000. but mines a tired old engine, just with new pump internals.
How's the oil return pipe / sump and breather pot setup marrow? Phase 1 sump? It could be that the oil path through the turbo/sump is restrictive which would mean oil pressure build up at the core?
I guess its a phase 2 sump as the inlet on the phase 1 is smaller. Haven't checked the breathers or breather pot mate but worth a look....
Wonder if theres a way to static test the turbo oil seals...?
autodata recommends 3.2bar/46psi at 4000rpm at 80degrees c i wouldnt say your pressures are too high.. just very good :), up to temp mines about 15psi at udle and 35psi at 4000. but mines a tired old engine, just with new pump internals.
Nice one, good info that... So my oil pressures good... Maybe like matt says I need to check the breathers and flow into the sump.
I think it would be strange to have a problem with all 3 turbos but maybe it is just bad luck. I guess I could send the new T25 away for a test / rebuild if required...
Can turbo rebuilders test units before stripping them down?
Tony Walker
20-04-2011, 21:56
yes they can. just thinking, what breather system do you run?? is the system sealed?? The system should be open to atmosphere to stop any pressure building up in the sump/rocker cover
yes they can. just thinking, what breather system do you run?? is the system sealed?? The system should be open to atmosphere to stop any pressure building up in the sump/rocker cover
It is open to the atmosphere but it doesnt run back into the inlet manifold as per the std setup but doubt this would cause my problem?
Tony Walker
20-04-2011, 22:07
nah that could cause oil to be burnt :) check your sump breather its quite a narrow pipe and easy to block.
old skool turbo power
20-04-2011, 22:07
[quote=Ashy;213660]http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Ashy%20172%20turbo/Whitey/blank_off.jpg
Could it be that the car is making too much oil pressure and forcing oil past the seals? could it be the oil is too thin 10w40?
quote]
try mobil 1 oil 15/40 mate i had a simmilar problem as well it would smoke on start up and prob after a while some times some like 5 mins later.white smoke nothin major but still :crap:i use this oil now and no problems :agree:hasnt somked since the last 6/7 months:)
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