View Full Version : wgt efi conversion
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 11:58
Just received an email from pip gardner at wgt regarding doing an efi conversion on renault 5s he is really up for doing this and wants to use my car as the guinea pig all ill have to pay is the cost of materials which sounds like a fair deal. He is then going to price up the proper cost of the conversion but he assures me it will be cheaper than 2k all in mapped up etc. What do you guys think its gotta be worth it just for reliability.
Save your money, the old solex is good enough when set up properly ;)
Penfold aka The Dealer
21-03-2011, 12:07
£2k and your the guinea pig?? depends on whats being used i suppose...
Custom manifold and fuel rail £500
Ecu £500+ for a decent one
Wiring Loom £200
Trigger Wheel £70
Sensors and misc parts £200-300
Looking abit less than £2k...
It is a shame nobody over here offers a off the shelf EFI kit as such, but If i were to go efi I would want a custom manifold and would try to avoid using an adaptated renault manifold, adaptronic ecu, and a few other things from Scoff - who even has some maps to help you get started...
Solex carb easy for 200bhp with a bit more effort and trail and error can see 240bhp.
but with EFI you can push much further as long as your turbo is correctly spected and act are good. The question is weather the extra 30-40 efi could give you is worth 1-2K it'll cost you.?
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 12:13
I wont be paying 2k fella all am paying is cost of materials. Am not sure what the all in price will be after but it wi be drive in drive out completely done.
Penfold aka The Dealer
21-03-2011, 12:17
I wont be paying 2k fella all am paying is cost of materials. Am not sure what the all in price will be after but it wi be drive in drive out completely done.
ah ok not so bad then, even so I would want to know what parts are going to be used and whats happening with the manifold ;)
If I were to go for efi it would be for better mpg, better power throughout the range not just peak power & also should be abit more reliable.
Wait until Scoff finds out...:D
Something tells me Glenns car on Saturday wet a few lips...:cooter:
Seriously though unless your going to go Glen Hi 5's route i.e fully forged lump, gas etc really pushing the limits of the c1j you wont see the benefit. As for power look at gianni santi, mega power still on a carb.
If your heart is set on efi, you would do far better dropping a modern engine in with more cc's and make the most of it. Be far more cost effective in the long run & better gains! Gearbox will always be the weak point though:crap:
can't Justin @ automedics sort you out? :cartman:
SCHWARTZ
21-03-2011, 12:37
You could easily drop a b18ft on standalone for under 2k.
Seriously though unless your going to go Glen Hi 5's route i.e fully forged lump, gas etc really pushing the limits of the c1j you wont see the benefit. As for power look at gianni santi, mega power still on a carb.
If your heart is set on efi, you would do far better dropping a modern engine in with more cc's and make the most of it. Be far more cost effective in the long run & better gains! Gearbox will always be the weak point though:crap:
I may be wrong, but didn't Oli (Os8472) record like.. 20% extra power at the same boost pressure, along with much better fuel economy and turn key reliability?
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 12:46
can't Justin @ automedics sort you out? :cartman:
With an efi conversion? I cant answer that as we speak as iv only just had that email from wgt so aint spoke to justin yet.
get your carb correctly speced first blunty, Personally i love carbs, the r5 carb is so simple and does a great job, i feel if you begin spending big cash on efi as already said you may aswell change lump at the same time, as really your already loosing a lot of character of the car by sticking electronic fueling on it.
Also remember that if you go efi.. every wothwhile mod afterwards will require a lenghty time with the tuners to map it up again.. I think saturday highlighted that so many folks fuelings were completely off, however everysingle one of them had either, just hit and hoped with a odd set of jets and boost, or gave it somebody else to setup and trusted that they have it right(and the dyno showed otherwise). My advise would be to get an lm1, sit down and study the afrs and what they mean and how the diffrent jets work and at what stage they do there bit, and do it yourself.
What silly times was tommyB running ?, he was on a carb , think he'd of died at the sight of 2k efi setups. Push the limits of the carb first, then if you still feel the need for power maybe fork out the silly wedge for efi, but personally im against it in most cases.
Seriously though unless your going to go Glen Hi 5's route i.e fully forged lump, gas etc really pushing the limits of the c1j you wont see the benefit. As for power look at gianni santi, mega power still on a carb.
If your heart is set on efi, you would do far better dropping a modern engine in with more cc's and make the most of it. Be far more cost effective in the long run & better gains!
:agree:
markey b
21-03-2011, 15:35
I may be wrong, but didn't Oli (Os8472) record like.. 20% extra power at the same boost pressure, along with much better fuel economy and turn key reliability?
i wouldn't say turnkey reliability lol.... the starting was no better, if not worse than a carbed one!
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 16:13
get your carb correctly speced first blunty, Personally i love carbs, the r5 carb is so simple and does a great job, i feel if you begin spending big cash on efi as already said you may aswell change lump at the same time, as really your already loosing a lot of character of the car by sticking electronic fueling on it.
Also remember that if you go efi.. every wothwhile mod afterwards will require a lenghty time with the tuners to map it up again.. I think saturday highlighted that so many folks fuelings were completely off, however everysingle one of them had either, just hit and hoped with a odd set of jets and boost, or gave it somebody else to setup and trusted that they have it right(and the dyno showed otherwise). My advise would be to get an lm1, sit down and study the afrs and what they mean and how the diffrent jets work and at what stage they do there bit, and do it yourself.
What silly times was tommyB running ?, he was on a carb , think he'd of died at the sight of 2k efi setups. Push the limits of the carb first, then if you still feel the need for power maybe fork out the silly wedge for efi, but personally im against it in most cases.
will be sorting the carb out iv got an aem wideband kit here to fit, its just something that i might consider if its going make the car better on fuel and reliable and poss a bit more power etc
Alastair
21-03-2011, 16:26
I agree with most of what has been said, but most people are looking at peak Hp not drivability, lower lag/good throttle response. I am going efi for all these reasons and mid range torque, i don't really need that much more top end power (although more is always helpful;)). Ive spent a fair bit on all new parts for the C1J + spares + quaife box + turbo + spare turbo + development so I want to get my moneys worth too, and for 600 squids it seems a good value upgrade option. It would cost me a fair bit to get a new engine and 'box up to similar power levels and be equally reliable, with an equally low centre of gravity and low(ish) all in weight, and not as cheap to rebuild if it pops, hence sticking with the C1J for now.
The flip side is that a NA 220+bhp 2 litre would put me in a lower class and make the car even more competetive and easier to drive. So, anyone selling a TB'd, cammed clio lump on standalone for £20? :laugh:
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 16:32
I agree with most of what has been said, but most people are looking at peak Hp not drivability, lower lag/good throttle response. I am going efi for all these reasons and mid range torque
they are a few good reasons to go for efi
TNT ANDY
21-03-2011, 17:42
they are a few good reasons to go for efi
and the first thing has got to be the ability to re map the poor ignition map. I have seen a 25bhp increase at 1 particular part in a map which makes the car so much more responsive low down.
Standalone ignition with carb, sorted:D
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 17:46
and the first thing has got to be the ability to re map the poor ignition map. I have seen a 25bhp increase at 1 particular part in a map which makes the car so much more responsive low down.
was this on your car or a friends ? sounds like a fair chunk of power low down to gain:agree:
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 17:47
Standalone ignition with carb, sorted:D
who does standalone ignition ? lumenition do it dont they ?
Markey Mark (BD)
21-03-2011, 18:02
who does standalone ignition ? lumenition do it dont they ?
Scoff does a Adaptronic unit that will allow you to map the ignition i believe, Rob (backyard racing) used a unit on his C1J powered clio or was it his phase 1.
Standalone ignition with carb, sorted:D
You know that **** ;).
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 18:15
Scoff does a Adaptronic unit that will allow you to map the ignition i believe, Rob (backyard racing) used a unit on his C1J powered clio or was it his phase 1.
How much is this kit.
danielmk323
21-03-2011, 18:34
in my option a 5 fun is because of the 1.4 c1j and the fact you can give a good run for many of the modern car whit bigger cc and if some one pass you can say man is only a 1950 lump and i give you a run for your money and if you fit a f7p and turboit you must play a different game and lose the 5 best ting if you want a big motor in small car then go get your self a corsa whit a calibra motor in it and race it until the body holds :smokin:
BluntyR5GTT
21-03-2011, 18:37
i dont want a big motor in my 5 mate, this would convert the c1j to efi
danielmk323
21-03-2011, 18:41
i m whit you 100% what can make the c1j better is a good thing to have
TNT ANDY
21-03-2011, 19:43
was this on your car or a friends ? sounds like a fair chunk of power low down to gain:agree:
This was on a friends car, mapped himself on a RR.
TNT ANDY
21-03-2011, 19:47
You know that **** ;).
That's what Rosco shortman has done and I can tell you, I'll not be putting pinks down on national day because his is absolutely lightning quick.
So I agree there.:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::a gree::agree::agree::agree:
I love to see a well set up carbed, big turbo FMIC, 5 doing the bussiness, I have a lot of time for the carb, just couldn't tune one for toffee hence the EFI.
:smokin:
i wouldn't say turnkey reliability lol.... the starting was no better, if not worse than a carbed one!
But thats in the tuning. With a good tune it'll start on the button, hot, cold, whatever ;)
I've been involved with and tuned a few EFI C1J's as some of you will know and so I'm pretty well placed to be able to tell you the pro's and con's of the conversion.
Pro's (with a good map!) are that you'll have perfect starting, improved fuel ecconomy and *notably* improved mid-range.
I've said it before - the one thing that doesn't seem to improve much is out and out power output - that is until you start to push the boundaries. EFI is fantastic in high boost applications like Glenns car. I'm 100% confident we could not squeze as much power out of it as we could with a carb. Sure, maybe a couple of guys have made more power again - and with a carb inplace - but they'll have ran some trick camshafts and cylinder heads. We have a standard BP285 @ standard timing with a standard cylinder head in Glenns car !
So if you're only interested in 1.5bar or whatever then you can't expect to see big HP gains, but the other gains might make the conversion tempting.
I think Pip was quietly impressed with Glenns injection setup, I had a good chat with him about it and other conversions after most people had gone so perhaps that sparked some interest. I have confidence he'll do a great job on anyones conversion :)
As for the question "Why hasn't anyone produced a kit?" - the answer is because there isn't enough interest to warrant it. Even for an individual like me it wouldn't be worth my effort putting one together, let alone a big company or tuning outfit.
BB tuning tried it, did the development work and had good results. How many kits did they sell do you think ? About zero.
Very few people with R5's want to spend money and even fewer apreciate modifying them these days. It's all about OE and restoration and those that do tune like to do it on a shoestring themselves because it's fun or because (like me) they're brasic lint :D
REBEL GT TURBO
21-03-2011, 20:25
Very few people with R5's want to spend money and even fewer apreciate modifying them these days. It's all about OE and restoration and those that do tune like to do it on a shoestring themselves because it's fun or because (like me) they're brasic lint :D[/quote]
:agree:
REBEL GT TURBO
21-03-2011, 20:33
I'm interested in the Adaptronic system! As for EFI conversions i think its something that will cost you as much as you want to spend! The more you spend the better the quality will be! If i was gonna go the EFI route i'd go the whole hog, Forged engine etc etc, F**k fuel economy! If thats what your after buy a diesel!
BluntyR5GTT
22-03-2011, 06:13
after a little chat with scoff last night another option i will be putting forward to wgt today is mappable ignition as from the sounds of it the gtt benefits quite a bit from this and would be alot cheaper of going down the efi route.
danielmk323
22-03-2011, 06:44
after a little chat with scoff last night another option i will be putting forward to wgt today is mappable ignition as from the sounds of it the gtt benefits quite a bit from this and would be alot cheaper of going down the efi route.
can you say what benefits you can get whit it i was looking in it but i told my self to go that rout i go for efi or can you join the 2 together
Jimmy_GTT
22-03-2011, 07:46
From France you can buy R21T kit with eeprom mapped to GTT. It uses R21T throttle body and injectors. I have found some homepages describing the whole process.
I have bought Megasquirt about 2 years ago. And first I've only used it for ignition.
The MS costs about 250 dollars. And with the help of Scoff (big thanx!!!) it was an easy job to fit it. Than you have all the possibilities to modify your ignition.
During the winter I have also done the EFI conversion. Now the car always starts for the first either cold or warm. I haven't yet finished the mapping as my second doughter has borned 7 weeks ago. And also the cold winter is not for GTTing. :)
I haven't made it for the extra HP only for fun. I wanted to learn how to make such conversion. How to map an ECU...
And I have also talked to other guys on msextra.com running on MS and I have even received full setup for E85. Maybe I'll also give it a try.
BluntyR5GTT
22-03-2011, 08:44
From France you can buy R21T kit with eeprom mapped to GTT. It uses R21T throttle body and injectors. I have found some homepages describing the whole process.
I have bought Megasquirt about 2 years ago. And first I've only used it for ignition.
The MS costs about 250 dollars. And with the help of Scoff (big thanx!!!) it was an easy job to fit it. Than you have all the possibilities to modify your ignition.
During the winter I have also done the EFI conversion. Now the car always starts for the first either cold or warm. I haven't yet finished the mapping as my second doughter has borned 7 weeks ago. And also the cold winter is not for GTTing. :)
I haven't made it for the extra HP only for fun. I wanted to learn how to make such conversion. How to map an ECU...
And I have also talked to other guys on msextra.com running on MS and I have even received full setup for E85. Maybe I'll also give it a try.
Interesting info there. What improvements did you get from the mappable ignition?
Alastair
22-03-2011, 09:35
From France you can buy R21T kit with eeprom mapped to GTT. It uses R21T throttle body and injectors. I have found some homepages describing the whole process.
I have bought Megasquirt about 2 years ago. And first I've only used it for ignition.
The MS costs about 250 dollars. And with the help of Scoff (big thanx!!!) it was an easy job to fit it. Than you have all the possibilities to modify your ignition.
During the winter I have also done the EFI conversion. Now the car always starts for the first either cold or warm. I haven't yet finished the mapping as my second doughter has borned 7 weeks ago. And also the cold winter is not for GTTing. :)
I haven't made it for the extra HP only for fun. I wanted to learn how to make such conversion. How to map an ECU...
And I have also talked to other guys on msextra.com running on MS and I have even received full setup for E85. Maybe I'll also give it a try.
That sounds very similar to the BBPT EFi setup, they used the clio / R19 16v ECU with a chip.
Any links Jimmy?
Jimmy_GTT
22-03-2011, 09:39
Interesting info there. What improvements did you get from the mappable ignition?
At low-mid range car is more responsive.
You can set up rev limit.
You can set up also boost limit. (take away 2 ignition events out of 5 for eg.)
You can modify your ignition for bigger boost.
The OE ignition is only good till 1.2bar. Aftar that you have to modify the VR sensor. But that will effect the whole ignition map.
Jimmy_GTT
22-03-2011, 09:43
That sounds very similar to the BBPT EFi setup, they used the clio / R19 16v ECU with a chip.
Any links Jimmy?
I have to check at home. I do not remember. I was searching the french forum 2 years ago. I've seen such kit on french ebay. Maybe it wasn't sold buy a company only buy other GTT funs.
Those ECUs are very similar. But I think the 16V ECUs are not able to handle boost. I think those MAP sensor is only for N/A purposes.
Good info Jimmy. :agree:
If there really are gains to be had for £200-£300, I think 'mappable ignition' is something that club members here should discuss at length. It's a relatively untouched subject as far as I can tell.
Nah, it's been discussed a good few times Trev - I was running it on my old Raider back in the days when DaveAVT was Adaptronic UK, and posted a thread about it.
Prior to that, there was the French guy (whose name escapes me now) who modified/sold programmable aei's, and as far as I'm aware, still does. I'll see if I can find his website...
Jimmy_GTT
22-03-2011, 10:33
Good info Jimmy. :agree:
If there really are gains to be had for £200-£300, I think 'mappable ignition' is something that club members here should discuss at length. It's a relatively untouched subject as far as I can tell.
There was also a french project for mappable ignition:
http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-officiel-et-programmable/aei-programmable/aei-re000
I have talked to the guy (about 4 yeears ago) who has helped me to build up this ignition. He has also sent me the codes. And I have spent more than a year to lear how to program a PIC micro in assembly and understand his code. In the end it was working. But I wasn't able to modify the ignition curve via serial port. There was something about SW limitations.
I haven't tested it too much. Only for a short drive. As I wanted to check the ignition values somehow. And by the time MS is arrived. So it went to my drawer. :)
Jimmy_GTT
22-03-2011, 10:34
Nah, it's been discussed a good few times Trev - I was running it on my old Raider back in the days when DaveAVT was Adaptronic UK, and posted a thread about it.
Prior to that, there was the French guy (whose name escapes me now) who modified/sold programmable aei's, and as far as I'm aware, still does. I'll see if I can find his website...
I was faster! ;)
BluntyR5GTT
22-03-2011, 10:35
Well iv put the wheels in motion with pip at wgt for a drive in drive out price on mappable ignition fully set up etc. So watch this space guys.
Nah, it's been discussed a good few times Trev - I was running it on my old Raider back in the days when DaveAVT was Adaptronic UK, and posted a thread about it.
A good few times? Mart, you should know, if it hasn't been done to death on this club, it hasn't been done at all! :laugh:
I think what I mean is, if there's only been a few owners who've done it and there's only been 2-3 threads about it and yet it remains a worthwhile mod that has stayed out of the mainstream, then maybe it needs to be revisited? Also, you'd hope that from pooling previous knowledge, might spring forth new ideas, a baseline, a group buy, a club article possibly? Maybe this is something that will be forced on the club eventually as Renix units' diaphragms fail?
I don't know exactly what it's about or what's to be had from it from how much outlay but I'm wondering if it's at least worth a revisit, especially at a time when a couple of members (Blunty, Jimmy), are heading this way...
I was faster! ;)
That's the fella. Nice one mate :) :agree:
BluntyR5GTT
22-03-2011, 11:48
A good few times? Mart, you should know, if it hasn't been done to death on this club, it hasn't been done at all! :laugh:
I think what I mean is, if there's only been a few owners who've done it and there's only been 2-3 threads about it and yet it remains a worthwhile mod that has stayed out of the mainstream, then maybe it needs to be revisited? Also, you'd hope that from pooling previous knowledge, might spring forth new ideas, a baseline, a group buy, a club article possibly? Maybe this is something that will be forced on the club eventually as Renix units' diaphragms fail?
I don't know exactly what it's about or what's to be had from it from how much outlay but I'm wondering if it's at least worth a revisit, especially at a time when a couple of members (Blunty, Jimmy), are heading this way...
Im certainly going head the way of mappable ignition and am mlre than willing be the first one wgt do am just waiting on a price from them. Will then speak to them about group deals etc.
Jimmy_GTT
22-03-2011, 12:11
I like the idea of this RE000. Than the car will look absolutely original.
But if you take the plastic case of the ignition module you can build inside something different. I think a MAP sensor is much better than the original vacuum membrane.
With the description of this french guy I have successfully repaired some vacuum membrane.
http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-officiel-et-programmable/kit-membrane
As we have talked about it maybe I'll take it from my drawer and play with it another few days. :)
I like the idea of this RE000. Than the car will look absolutely original.
But if you take the plastic case of the ignition module you can build inside something different. I think a MAP sensor is much better than the original vacuum membrane.
With the description of this french guy I have successfully repaired some vacuum membrane.
http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-officiel-et-programmable/kit-membrane
As we have talked about it maybe I'll take it from my drawer and play with it another few days. :)
With the adaptronic ecu you can use a clio/19 16v ignition unit to control spark.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180448705790&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
So the engine bay and scuttle area would look oe depend on where the ecu was put. :smokin:
Guys, all this info needs to be transferred to a 'mappable ignition' thread. This will get those not reading this thread interested and also be better for future RTOC board searches.
BluntyR5GTT
22-03-2011, 14:30
Guys, all this info needs to be transferred to a 'mappable ignition' thread. This will get those not reading this thread interested and also be better for future RTOC board searches.
Good suggestion if a mod would like to move the relevant bits into a new thread that would be great
I will be interested to see how mapable ignition works out with wgt .. you would think that with all the mods on most cars these days the standard ignition map could definately be improved ..
would be great to see the differences at a set boost pressure and comparing before and after rr graphs ... especially on wgts hub dyno ..
Blunty if you decide not to go ahead ... give us a shout and maybe i will be interested depending on cost ... once i sort my clutch out :)
Tony Walker
22-03-2011, 16:16
Deffinetly interested in this, i looked in to it awhile back as with most other things for me i didnt get time to invest in it.
Ignition timing is one of the most critical things in tuning, you can run 10-20-30 psi of boost but whats the point if your only igniting the mixture when its half way down the bores.
Let us kno how you get on and costs involved!!
Let us kno how you get on and costs involved!!
:agree::agree:
Tony Walker
22-03-2011, 16:24
I asked awhile back and im sure mr cooke posted me a french website of a modified renix unit, but i couldnt read it so didnt look further lol.
BluntyR5GTT
22-03-2011, 18:33
as soon as i get the prices back i shall post up onto here :agree:
REBEL GT TURBO
22-03-2011, 19:22
Put me down for it!:agree:
REBEL GT TURBO
23-03-2011, 22:15
Any news on prices dude?
BluntyR5GTT
24-03-2011, 05:17
not yet mate should get back to me soon
BluntyR5GTT
24-03-2011, 18:52
Right guys got a price on mappable ignition. This includes absolutely everything drive in drive out all mapped up. £1000. Apparantly the ecu they use will also allow to upgrade to full efi in the future if you wanted.
BluntyR5GTT
24-03-2011, 19:01
Right guys got a price on mappable ignition. This includes absolutely everything drive in drive out all mapped up. £1000. Apparantly the ecu they use will also allow to upgrade to full efi in the future if you wanted.
BluntyR5GTT
24-03-2011, 19:04
Oops sorry guys double post.
REBEL GT TURBO
24-03-2011, 19:31
£1000 all inn! so ok thats a little more than i expected but cant put a price on performace! So what is going to be the advantages??
Thats pretty fair, I expect Pip might use a DTA s40 for that price so full EFI wouldn't be much further away.
BluntyR5GTT
24-03-2011, 19:35
That is something i cant answer until one has been done. I was hoping be the first but i think my mrs will kill me if i spend another 1k on my car iv only just got away with buying a van and spending our holiday money lol.
£1000 all inn! so ok thats a little more than i expected but cant put a price on performace! So what is going to be the advantages??
increased performance due to weight of spent wonga...
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/581154/2/istockphoto_581154-pile-of-money.jpg
You've got to realise that more than half of that is in the ECU and loom so it's pretty fair. Sure, you could buy a Megajolt instead, fit it youself in a day and it'll have cost you £250. Expect to spend the same again or more on mapping though. Of course, there's no possibiliy to upgrade to fuel injection with that route though.
BluntyR5GTT
24-03-2011, 19:46
You've got to realise that more than half of that is in the ECU and loom so it's pretty fair. Sure, you could buy a Megajolt instead, fit it youself in a day and it'll have cost you £250. Expect to spend the same again or more on mapping though. Of course, there's no possibiliy to upgrade to fuel injection with that route though.
Spot on chris.
Ecu,coil,trigger wheel and mapping bang on all done without you having do a thing.
£1000 all in :eek: forget that ill stick with the carb thanks. a £1000 nowadays is alot of money i could do with in my bank.:agree:
i guess the question on everyones tongues is how much would the full package be.
Me personally , im not really interested as i enjoy the carb and dont feel need to push r5s to there limits, and im happy with its small donwfalls.
£1000 all in :eek: forget that ill stick with the carb thanks. a £1000 nowadays is alot of money i could do with in my bank.:agree:
you'd be sticking with the carb anyway, we're talking about mappable ignition. Full EFI is going to be £1500 on a budget :)
Dave Reed
24-03-2011, 21:51
you'd be sticking with the carb anyway, we're talking about mappable ignition. Full EFI is going to be £1500 on a budget :)
As Chris no's i'm currently in the process of doing a full EFI converstion on my 5.... To date I've spent nearly £1500 and that's getting most of the parts secondhand.. Bearing in mind this is just parts, no labour to fit or map.
Manifold is 2nd biggest cost really (after ECU) (i seem to remember Hi 5 saying about £900 for something like he's got) I went with a MT one, not sure how it's going to hold up, but, will be a good test for other memebers, as I plan to squeeze as much power out of my engine as poss..
But the way I look at it is, its going to hopefully be a massive improvement over the carb in all area's. I also don't just use my car for drag racing, i drive it on the road too, as a few members no.
So as Chris said 1k for ignition control drive in drive out is pretty good!
I hope this helps
i personally find the price seems very reasonable however i just cant help feel that id personally spend my own hard earned cash fitting a large CC engine which also comes with injection. I completely understand those either pushing the 1.4 limits like glen or racing within set events, however for those just randomly looking for more numbers on them rollers just swap engines if your penny watching as it will generally be far more benficial.
Same story with my 205.. i purchased a set of weber 45's , and inlet etc.. but when i really looked at it, the power would maybe be 150 at a push with a nice cam, guzzle fuel, still be rough at certain areas within the rev range etc, where as my gti6 is circa 160bhp , 32 mpg, parts off the shelf all day long, turn key start, and it owers me about £200.
in other words just ask exactly what you want from the car, what yours aims are and what your budget is... also be ready for them sills to drop off and land you with just as large bodywork bills , as im sure all these french tin cars are rotters.
Tony Walker
24-03-2011, 22:53
This really is a good price for a performance/reliability addition to the c1j.
The three most important parts to the performance are the compression, fuelling and ignition timing. we all now realise that incorrect fueling = poor performance and potentially damaging to the engine. Ignition timing is even more critical and has a huge effect on performance and a catastrophic effect if its wrong. It is a large amount of money in one go unfortunately, even more unfortunate is the fact that the 5 allready has this system it just isnt easily mappable and doesnt work at the boost levels we now play at.
I'm interested to know what the cheaper mapped ignition option might provide in improvement/reliability (as an alternative to the £1000 option).
£250 for megajolt
£250 for mapping say
What are the benefits for that £500 (understanding there's no route out to EFI afterwards)?
Can you ditch the Renix unit at that rate? What happens when you alter boost levels once it's all set up?
Imho, if you're not gonna go the whole hog & fit a complete efi setup, you're wasting time & money, and with regards to a c1j some may argue that even with said complete efi setup, you'd still be wasting time & money.
As always, it depends on application - Running a carb never hurt Stuart Clark on the strip, nor Hoolio Geordio (or whatever his name is) with his carb/NOS setup, and I've yet to see any efi'd GTT breaking records on track.
A well setup carb' will give equally good cold/hot starts, and likewise, good driving manners with respectable mpg. I was getting close to 400 miles to a tank out of Whitey, and that was driven (and started on the key) day in, day out come rain, shine or even snow.
The o.e Renix ignition map isn't that bad, and of course has limitations, but again it comes down to what you want from the car. It's relatively easy to advance/retard the complete map if needs be, and I'd say, imho, for 99% of people with gtt's/c1j's, that's all that's required.
If you're prepared to pay out for a full blown efi setup, imho again, you might as well ditch the c1j & fit a newer, already efi'd, possibly larger displacement, engine into the bay instead & go from there.
As a last point, it's a ~25 year old car - How far down the line d'you want to go with trying to modernise it, before you lose the appeal & character of the car?
TALKING/THINKING OF IGNITION ONLY IN THIS POST, NOT EFI
Mart, I'm thinking ahead a few years. What happens when Renix boxes' diaphragms start failing. Can they be fixed? If not, what's the best/cheapest/best performing solution?
IMO it's worth thinking about/understanding upfront and in this instance I was just trying to understand the benefits (if any) of something like megajolt to look for reasons that improve the cost/benefit ratio.
Trev, yes they can be repaired - One example is here: http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-officiel-et-programmable/kit-membrane (the jubilee clip method would be sufficient).
If you're thinking ahead a few years, fair do's, but I'd wait & worry about it as & when/if it ever happens mate :)
Anyway, akin to the tubular manifold thread, this is all just my humble opinion.
Ahh, I'd not seen that bit of the site. Cool, although not something I'd like to have a stab at unless I really had to!
Talking of years down the line, I'd need a GTT before I started worrying about that again anyway, lol. :D
Imho, if you're not gonna go the whole hog & fit a complete efi setup, you're wasting time & money, and with regards to a c1j some may argue that even with said complete efi setup, you'd still be wasting time & money.
As always, it depends on application - Running a carb never hurt Stuart Clark on the strip, nor Hoolio Geordio (or whatever his name is) with his carb/NOS setup, and I've yet to see any efi'd GTT breaking records on track.
A well setup carb' will give equally good cold/hot starts, and likewise, good driving manners with respectable mpg. I was getting close to 400 miles to a tank out of Whitey, and that was driven (and started on the key) day in, day out come rain, shine or even snow.
The o.e Renix ignition map isn't that bad, and of course has limitations, but again it comes down to what you want from the car. It's relatively easy to advance/retard the complete map if needs be, and I'd say, imho, for 99% of people with gtt's/c1j's, that's all that's required.
If you're prepared to pay out for a full blown efi setup, imho again, you might as well ditch the c1j & fit a newer, already efi'd, possibly larger displacement, engine into the bay instead & go from there.
As a last point, it's a ~25 year old car - How far down the line d'you want to go with trying to modernise it, before you lose the appeal & character of the car?
Mart man, I can guarantee that if you were to have completed and accurately mapped the standalone ignition on your old raider you'd have loved it to bits. The standard map really is very poor once you fit a big turbo! There's a massave hole in the timing at 3000rpm, WOT and the rest isn't exactly optimized for performance. Fixing that hole alone makes pulling out of junctions without boost a whole load more responsive. With the whole map optimized it suddenly feels like you're in a 2L when you're off boost.
Full EFI is a god send when you're pushing the limits, trust me. It benefits peformance a lot too at higher boost levels. Not so much at lesser levels as I've said before. And you know me better than to go spouting unproven nonsence - I'm not that guy, I wouldn't say it unless I was condifent of it's truth.
As for the carb not hurting Stuart Clark, it often did with blown gaskets, expanded pistons and so on. We used my logging gear on his car once, the fueling was less than optimal but no doubt the best he could have done.
As for records with EFI, is the UK 1/4m record not sufficient ? :cry: Yes, Gianni has us pipped with Glenns car. He has a trick camshaft and a lot of time and effort in the engine. We have a standard cylinder head, a standard BP285 and standard cam timing ! I'd take my hat off to anyone who could re-create that with a carburettor.
I whole heartedly agree about the engine swapping though. If you're going to spend all that time and money you really should be looking at a modern engine. Of course, there are a few guys that want to stay true to the original - at least in some part - and thats OK too. :)
BluntyR5GTT
25-03-2011, 18:02
i personally think that mappable ignition is the way forward with the c1j
i personally think that mappable ignition is the way forward with the c1j
I'd say it is too but with it's cost it will be on the very end of people list once all the cheaper ponies had been realised.
BluntyR5GTT
25-03-2011, 18:19
am pretty sure cost cn be taken down by using something like megajolt maybe to around the £800 mark
Alastair
25-03-2011, 19:33
Scoff, that's exactly the band where i struggle with a lethargic response 2.8k - 3.4k. I doubt the 34mm restrictor helps and may be stalling flow under certain conditions. Next time the engine is out i might go for a closer ratio box and fit a 172 box with my diff in it, trouble is, the tall 1st is very usefull for very tight hairpins around bales. Once i get the EFi set up fitted next month i'll be in touch for a decent ECU and mapping session. I have semi-free access to a friends R/R down south though, might do a before and after graph and post it up?
Mart once its done you are welcome to have a drive next time i'm racing up north, it is still road legal;), would welcome your opinion.
Tony Walker
25-03-2011, 19:55
EFI and ignition mapping are two completely seperate things and should be considered that way. I think up to 15 psi the standard renix is fine, beyond that im sure theres lots of room for improvement. as prevously said, the ignition map is for a t2 and standard cam on full boost(full ignition retard) by about 2000rpm. i know from my rr day my turbo isnt on full boost till 4000rpm so ive got 2000rpm off boost of probably pretty retarded ignition timing. no wonder there so flat. Short of sitting on the engine with a strobe while someones on a rolling road i dont think were going to know how bad/good the map is. I do remember someone stating in an EFI thread that the c1j responded well to ignition adjustments.
The standard renix 'map' is not that bad for high boost, im running my tdc in stock position with 22 psi @ manifold with no knock.....mappable ign will make response low down better without a shadow of a doubt.
Im planning on fitting mappable ign to the van at some point, im tempted to megajolt it on the cheap, be ideal for nitrous ;)
Tony, I sampled the RE209's response years ago (using an airline on the capsule instead of a dyno) thats how I can see the big hole in the timing. It's a 3D map by the way, so you won't have excessive retard from 2000-4000rpm. :)
Jimmy_GTT
25-03-2011, 20:51
And the RE209 has a very big retard after the stock boost level. That's why it can be used till 20-22psi. But it is very weak in the 10-20psi range.
(it will use the same advance @12psi and @22 also)
And there is no rev limit.
Tony Walker
25-03-2011, 20:58
so you tested throughout rev range at different pressures? i assumed you just scoped it idling and recorded the retard at different pressures.
so you tested throughout rev range at different pressures? i assumed you just scoped it idling and recorded the retard at different pressures.
I could probably do a better job these days but essentially I had my trusty piper timing disc bolted to the crank pulley, the car at standstill and an airline/guage on the renix. I had a bit of stiff wire clamped to the subframe as a pointer. I strobed and plotted every 500rpm and every +2psi increment or something. I couldn't test vacuum though, but I wasn't interested in that. I published the results at the time on the old forum, which of course was lost. Some of the long timers might remember it. I put together a "suggested" general purpose replacement map which exists in the files area under my name. That map is essentially the standard map with the hole filled, a bit more timing up to about 1.2 bar, OE timing around 1.5bar and a bit of extra retard there after.
As jimmy says, the renix does nothing to retard further after 10psi in my tests, so the same timing curve at 10psi or 30psi boost. You can therefore see that you could safely run more timing at 1-18psi and still pull timing at higher levels if you had something mappable. Couple that with removing the hole at 3000rpm and you're on to a winner.
This sounds good!
How cheaply can this be done, with what and by whom?!
BluntyR5GTT
26-03-2011, 12:04
cheapest kit would be the megajolt and i wouldnt be surprised if lumenition do some form of universal mappable ignition
wgt price was for an ecu that could be upgraded to efi at a later date if required im going see what they say if we use just mappable ignition only how it affects the price
BluntyR5GTT
26-03-2011, 14:08
Just spoke to.pip at wgt and he says if using a megajolt instead of dta it would be an all in price of £850 that includes everything required and fully mapped up on dyno.
Tony Walker
27-03-2011, 21:54
I do remember your thread on that scoff, you did send me the file too, ill try my best to find it but i dont think it was on this laptop. I was thinking along the megajolt route with some ford components if i remember rightly.
£850 is getting a bit more tempting!!!
michael tierney
28-03-2011, 21:31
I just wanted to clear this question up........ if u use a wasted spark system,1 and 4, with 2 and 3 and are sparking at say 15 degrees after top on no.1 cyl(power) then ure the same with no.4 cyl( induction)so is there a spark when the inlet valve is open on no 4 or am i not looking at it right??:scratch:
Seriously though unless your going to go Glen Hi 5's route i.e fully forged lump, gas etc really pushing the limits of the c1j you wont see the benefit. As for power look at gianni santi, mega power still on a carb.
If your heart is set on efi, you would do far better dropping a modern engine in with more cc's and make the most of it. Be far more cost effective in the long run & better gains! Gearbox will always be the weak point though:crap:
not dissing gianni car but he has 3 injectors as well as a carb so it my as well be efi :cooter:
mart said
As always, it depends on application - Running a carb never hurt Stuart Clark on the strip, nor Hoolio Geordio (or whatever his name is) with his carb/NOS setup, and I've yet to see any efi'd GTT breaking records on track.
lol open your eyes
Jimmy_GTT
30-03-2011, 21:00
I'm also thinking about building a similar programmable ignition like the french project.
It won't be that difficult with the modern microcontrollers.
And as a default Scoff's curve could be used, (if he agrees)
It would be a straight replacement of the renix module only with some additional USB or RS232 connector on it. But I'd use a 3 bar MAP sensor.......
BluntyR5GTT
30-03-2011, 21:11
spoke to pip this evening and he says he needs a car to carry this mappable ignition conversion out on, it was going to be mine but its a no go now due to buying another van, insuring it etc, so if anyone off here would like be the first one wgt do then give me a shout
Tony Walker
30-03-2011, 23:47
I'd be interested, but my engines 20+ years old now and the compressions not there, so no point mapping it, if i rebuilt it the compression would be alot higher and i'd just need it remapping again, plus it wouldn't be a good map for pip to have. im pretty sure after 20 years the cam chain will of stretched and retarded the cam timming quite alot too, probably why it made good torque.
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