View Full Version : Unhealthy noise?
Hi all,
My engines got a grinding/whirling type noise? - It is intermitent, and comes and goes but mostly appears when i increase the rev's, and may disappear on tick over for a brief period.
As soon as i kill the power to the engine it stops instantly too, appears to also only sound when the engine is up to temperature!
At first i thought it might be coming from the flywheel (cars sat for a while and flywheel has rust on it!) but when i apply the clutch and put it into gear no change!
There are also no obvious marks on the flywheel to suggest the starter motor either.
I'm now convinced it's coming from the turbo, of which i assume is bad news and possibly starving the turbo of oil??
Have a listen! - Any thoughts or ideas much appreciated??:scratch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuvcMJvN7dw
That doesn't sound good matey sounds like something is grinding away, Alex i note you mention turbo have you removed the oil feed to the turbo and cranked engine to make sure oil is getting to the turbo??
also remove the air filter to the turbo and have a look for play
Tony Walker
14-03-2011, 22:58
possibly something inside your filter when you refitted it?
That doesn't sound good matey sounds like something is grinding away, Alex i note you mention turbo have you removed the oil feed to the turbo and cranked engine to make sure oil is getting to the turbo??
also remove the air filter to the turbo and have a look for play
If you have a butchers on my project thread, i've taken a couple pics of the turbo and brief outline, in my opinion the turbo is still good............
Having said that, NO! I haven't actually done as above! - I thought that because i've got the fecking leak (turbo drain to sump!) that oil must be getting through!
I will definately do as above though James for sure............because yes it sounds terrible doesn't it:scared:
possibly something inside your filter when you refitted it?
Do you mean oil filter?
If so, then yes i have checked and double checked and nothing in the filter!
Haven't check the air filter, so will do that anyway, obviously doubt its go anything to do with the noise but be good to do anyway:agree:
Tony Walker
14-03-2011, 23:15
Ah sorry not looked at anyting previous. i wouldnt run it unless you have to. try turning the blades yourself. feel if it catches anything?
Tony Walker
14-03-2011, 23:15
Air filter sorry. see if anythings inside
Cheers Tony:agree:
Will do...........
Thundercat
15-03-2011, 05:55
hi mate, drop the engine oil and see what you get. Had grinding noise before on a c1j that was stood 10 months outside and found water missed in the oil.
Mine sounded a bit like that after having a few issues with the breather system mainly missing restrictors I think. Sounded quite similar though.
TNT ANDY
15-03-2011, 07:15
Mine sounded a bit like that after having a few issues with the breather system mainly missing restrictors I think. Sounded quite similar though.
Starter motor ?
Without a doubt
Thanks all:agree:
I'll try and get it sorted during the week if not at the weekend!
Then post what i find..................
Can't stop thinking about it:devil::scratch::D:laugh:
With regards to the startor motor........
Am i right to assume its proberly "grinding" for 2 reasons:
(1) Not seated properly? out of alignment?
(2) The "solenoid" possibly faulty - not engaging/dis-engaging?
Thanks again:agree:
whirling noise????
could maybe be the release bearing, put your foot on the clutch pedal while
engine is running and see if it stops
whoops just read post right through:o
TNT ANDY
15-03-2011, 18:56
Can't stop thinking about it:devil::scratch::D:laugh:
With regards to the startor motor........
Am i right to assume its proberly "grinding" for 2 reasons:
(1) Not seated properly? out of alignment?
(2) The "solenoid" possibly faulty - not engaging/dis-engaging?
Thanks again:agree:
I'de pitch for number 2 - the noise I can hear was very familiar to me after I've heard this many times on cars that start then when they release the key to stop engaging the starter motor and then it makes this noise on run down. I think it is the sliding teeth cog that is worn or needs lube.
I'de pitch for number 2 - the noise I can hear was very familiar to me after I've heard this many times on cars that start then when they release the key to stop engaging the starter motor and then it makes this noise on run down. I think it is the sliding teeth cog that is worn or needs lube.
Brilliant:agree:
Fooking hope its not chewed it to pieces - its new:cry::D
Hope it just needs some lube-ing up:D
Cheers Andy
Tony Walker
15-03-2011, 20:32
Dont think its the starter, if its staying engaged it would squeal like a b***h permanantly, it wouldnt disapear when it idles then re-apear when yoou rev it. un bolt the tubo put the feed in to the return and run it, you'l know if its turbo or not then.
Dont think its the starter, if its staying engaged it would squeal like a b***h permanantly, it wouldnt disapear when it idles then re-apear when yoou rev it. un bolt the tubo put the feed in to the return and run it, you'l know if its turbo or not then.
Thanks Tony, thats just the sort of advice i'm after:agree::agree:
Seems an obvious thing to do now, but hey ho.......
If i'm honest, i still think its the turbo too........purely just by the sound and the kind of location "i think" its coming from?!
Will try and get things moving tommorrow night, but as is always the case work will probably get in the way:mad::mad:
Tony Walker
15-03-2011, 21:45
Np if i was there and could hear it i'd know straight away, allways difficult from a million miles away :(
'kin 'el thats not a good noise, blip the throttle in the car & press the clutch down to see if it goes, could be release bearing.
I hope it's not anything in the turbo as it would have mullered it by now :crap:
Check the comp wheel is spinning ok as well once you have the filter hose off.
TNT ANDY
15-03-2011, 22:45
Dont think its the starter, if its staying engaged it would squeal like a b***h permanantly, it wouldnt disapear when it idles then re-apear when yoou rev it. un bolt the tubo put the feed in to the return and run it, you'l know if its turbo or not then.
I dissagree:cool:
Tony Walker
15-03-2011, 22:47
:cool: would be a boring world if people didnt.
Grab the compressor side of the turbo and feel for vibration, it shouldnt be too hot. You should feel zero vibration...
I agree with Tonys method of removing the turbo and turning the engine over, wont take long to pull it off and do it either :)
Best way to rule out the starter would be to start the car without using the starter motor...
tiff_lee
15-03-2011, 23:48
Surely just remove the starter motor and look at the ring gear, if it has been catching to the point where it is making that noise it will be instantly obvious.
TNT ANDY
16-03-2011, 06:43
Surely just remove the starter motor and look at the ring gear, if it has been catching to the point where it is making that noise it will be instantly obvious.
I'm spit balling here - but I don't think you will see any 'missing teeth' etc, It is wear on the main shaft of the starter motor.
tiff_lee
16-03-2011, 06:56
So what are we saying here, the starter is still fully engaged once the car is started?
Well i for one am glad theres different opinions - its given me food for thought!
Im desperatley trying to finish off early today to get out there and find out what it is...........and fix it!
I may very well be wrong, but i do think its the turbo! It just really seems to be coming from that area, then again as Steve says- if it is the turbo then i'll be a very unhappy chappy................
As soon as i sort it, i'll post up what i've found..
Massive thank you again everyone for the input:agree:
Dave Reed
16-03-2011, 15:36
I'd say check the restrictors in your breather pipes first fella :D
TNT ANDY
16-03-2011, 18:13
I'd say I aint got a fapping clue now.
:confused:
I'd say check the restrictors in your breather pipes first fella :D
Too late:wasntme::wasntme:
Ummmm kay.................just managed a couple of hours of play time!!
Now proved to myself that there is oil coming through the turbo feed - as pic (1) - thats was from no more than 10secs of tick over!
I removed the turbo, and started the engine, but can't elimate the turbo as yet! - running the engine without the turbo on is fooking loud and didn't want to piss neighbours off so will approach that at a better time.
There is however, zero play in the shaft backwards/forwards & minimal up/down movement...........if i had to put a measurement on it, i'd say 3mm movement max?!
As for the starter motor, well f**k me thats some bull****e getting that off isn't it:mad::laugh:
The pictures say it all really.............so what do you reckon guys???
Whats peoples thoughts then???
Tony Walker
16-03-2011, 21:44
we need to see the teeth on the gear of the starter motor, is the one way clutch working on the starter gear? the squeel can be the clutch, or the starter gear sticking out and not returning. check the gear turns one way and not the other, it will be a bit tight but you should be able to turn it one way.
Tony Walker
16-03-2011, 21:45
lol beat me to it.
Now the starters off and i know its a pain in the arse because i took mine off the weekend gone isnt there a way to test it by putting a wire from the battery to the starter, im sure someone will instruct.
Mat
Sorry peps all sorts going on in the thread now:D
With regards to the restrictors - I need help??
Where should i look/start? - and what am i looking for?
Any pics would be awesome:D
Now the starters off and i know its a pain in the arse because i took mine off the weekend gone isnt there a way to test it by putting a wire from the battery to the starter, im sure someone will instruct.
Mat
Yes you can test it - 12v supply and link to the solenoid
Be doing that tommorrow!:agree:
Cheers Mat
we need to see the teeth on the gear of the starter motor, is the one way clutch working on the starter gear? the squeel can be the clutch, or the starter gear sticking out and not returning. check the gear turns one way and not the other, it will be a bit tight but you should be able to turn it one way.
It turns both ways!
Only way i can describe it is: turns one way with all the "drive gear":scratch:
and turns the other way but JUST the teeth section!
Talk to me???:D:wasntme::D
TNT ANDY
16-03-2011, 21:54
:agree:
Yes you can test it - 12v supply and feed down to earth
Be doing that tommorrow!:agree:
Cheers Mat
:agree::agree::agree::agree:
Tony Walker
16-03-2011, 22:05
does it turn one way, and turn the other but move outwards as you turn it?
does it turn one way, and turn the other but move outwards as you turn it?
No! - One way with everything (shaft,drive gear/internals) & and the other way just the teeth...............but no movement in or out either way?
Thundercat
16-03-2011, 23:03
get some jump leads, black lead on starter mounting flange and red wants to be connected where battery lead went. Then with screwdriver short across to where flat terminal is. Starter gear should shoot out and spin up. When you remove screwdriver it should stop spinning a shoot back in. Simple test!
Dave Reed
17-03-2011, 08:27
Sorry peps all sorts going on in the thread now:D
With regards to the restrictors - I need help?? TBH I really can't remember where exactly they are as it's been that long since I worked on a standard one!!! I've had a search round the site for a pic, but again, can't seem to find a pic.. You need someone who has access to dialogs to get a break down of the breather system :D
Where should i look/start? - and what am i looking for?
Any pics would be awesome:D
hope this helps.
Alex the restrictors for the breather system are placed in the tubes in the locations on the following pic's.
Renault part number for the restrictors are
6001007416 for restrictor between t piece and pipe to telephone hose
6001007478 between T piece and inlet one way valve
I don't see this being a restrictor problem though
I would be tempted to jump start the car with the starter motor removed if the noise is still there eliminates starter.
Clutch bearing??
Hmmm another thought gearbox input shaft damaged?? was clutch friction plate aligned ok?? and torqued down??
Just more food for thought really.
Alex the restrictors for the breather system are placed in the tubes in the locations on the following pic's.
Renault part number for the restrictors are
6001007416 for restrictor between t piece and pipe to telephone hose
6001007478 between T piece and inlet one way valve
I don't see this being a restrictor problem though
James mate your an absolute diamond:agree:
I'll look into that tght..........
I would be tempted to jump start the car with the starter motor removed if the noise is still there eliminates starter.
Clutch bearing??
Hmmm another thought gearbox input shaft damaged?? was clutch friction plate aligned ok?? and torqued down??
Just more food for thought really.
I'm not convinced its the clutch bearing, only because i took alot of care with these jobs, the clutch plate was aligned and torqued............but thats certainly not me ruling them out!
Gearbox input shaft is a definate maybe!
I'm going to do as said a couple times and start the car without the starter motor in place............ive just tested its functionality and everythings seems fine.....
I'll get it sorted eventually, think a day off work may be required, cause by the time i get home it's dark and can't always be arsed:wasntme::D
Thanks again James......
Tony Walker
17-03-2011, 20:54
if you get a long screwdriver, and put it on the turbo when its squealing then put your ear on the screwdriver you will get a much clearer sound of the noise, then try on the gearbox housing(take care of the flywheel while its running) move it around different parts and you will hear it change. it should be quite clear where the noise is strongest.
if you get a long screwdriver, and put it on the turbo when its squealing then put your ear on the screwdriver you will get a much clearer sound of the noise, then try on the gearbox housing(take care of the flywheel while its running) move it around different parts and you will hear it change. it should be quite clear where the noise is strongest.
Cheers Tony:agree:
i'll follow that idea when i have it running again.
Tested the starter motor today,and its working perfectly well, given it some grease anyway..............suppose there is a slight chance it may "snag" when under load, but i doubt it to be honest.........
Will try and leave work early tommorrow so i can get invoved again.......
I've uploaded a video on my project thread - and guess what "no noise"
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?p=208624#post208624
The oil looked ok, the breathers were all present and correct!
I did fit the starter motor before double checking, but was personally convinced it wasn't that..........i may be wrong!
What i think the noise was, is the Turbo:cry:
The new turbo oil feed (with the in-line filter), the hose is just too long.......causing it to kink and then hence starve the turbo of it's required oil.
I've now positioned it precisely to avoid this again, and the noise has not reappeared, and i've had the car running a lot today........
I shall call hose solutions on monday and post up what they say.......
Thanks again for all the advice:agree: and i really hope this is the end of it:mad::D
Just a heads up again on Hose Solutions, and this noise........
Once again, Hose Solutions have been spot on:agree: - we agreed to make the hose extra long to avoid any problems and it's seemed to work, the hose is about 100mm longer than before, and is routed out the way! And most importantly the noise has gone and there is no kink in the hose........
Happy days and another job jobbed:wasntme::D
Tony Walker
29-03-2011, 23:20
:) :agree: happy days.
TNT ANDY
30-03-2011, 06:38
I'm an arse:crap:
I'm an arse:crap:
Thats a bit harsh Andy........
Helpful:agree: Not an arse mate!
TNT ANDY
31-03-2011, 06:49
Thats a bit harsh Andy........
Helpful:agree: Not an arse mate!
Not so sure about that, but thanks for the post.
Alex, glad you got it sorted matey so it was due oil starvation to turbo hope i hasn't done any real damage to the core of the turbo.
Are you sure it was oil starvation? In your other posts the turbo drain was leaking like a good'en so oil must have been going through??
Reason i ask is Benj's engine made a similar noise after i refitted it, just shut up after a few mins of running. I think it was the clutch release bearing or the box..All the oil system is good on his and the oil pressure is very good..
Are you sure it was oil starvation? In your other posts the turbo drain was leaking like a good'en so oil must have been going through??
Reason i ask is Benj's engine made a similar noise after i refitted it, just shut up after a few mins of running. I think it was the clutch release bearing or the box..All the oil system is good on his and the oil pressure is very good..
Cant say 100% it was that, because yes your right - it was and still is leaking!
More coincidence really and it seemed to make all the differnce fitting the new pipe...
Fingers crossed it was as is on Benj's car,just the box etc?? other wise i doubt the turbo will last long......
Alex, glad you got it sorted matey so it was due oil starvation to turbo hope i hasn't done any real damage to the core of the turbo.
Cheers James:agree:
And as above mate really, do hope its not the turbo, but i suppose time will tell!
I wouldnt panic too much mate just ride it out. Im positive the noise on bens was from the flywheel area.
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