View Full Version : R21 txi disc help
Having murders, i have tried fitting my Renault 21 2.0l txi discs to my r5 gt turbo.
I bought some willwood 4 pots and had bracket/extenders made from andy tnt.
I thought at fist i was putting them on back to front or something because the calliper would not line up with the disk.
So i fitted the gt turbo disks back on with the extenders and the callipers all is well, what is happening when the 285 txi disk is sitting on the hub the disc has a larger offset ie the disk sticks further out therefore not being able to get the disk to fit where its supposed to. Its about 7-8 ml out.
I rang brembo and asked them, hard work female :(, im going to ring back tomorrow.
can anyone shed some light, loads of people have fitted larger 285 disks and just used r21 txi disks with extenders :confused:
The extenders usually use the standard gt turbo caliper mate, you will need to chop and change your caliper extenders to suit the 4pots.
Matt Cole
02-02-2011, 17:48
Having murders, i have tried fitting my Renault 21 2.0l txi discs to my r5 gt turbo.
I bought some willwood 4 pots and had bracket/extenders made from andy tnt.
I thought at fist i was putting them on back to front or something because the calliper would not line up with the disk.
So i fitted the gt turbo disks back on with the extenders and the callipers all is well, what is happening when the 285 txi disk is sitting on the hub the disc has a larger offset ie the disk sticks further out therefore not being able to get the disk to fit where its supposed to. Its about 7-8 ml out.
I rang brembo and asked them, hard work female :(, im going to ring back tomorrow.
can anyone shed some light, loads of people have fitted larger 285 disks and just used r21 txi disks with extenders :confused:
Phil, im sure i mentioned this in your PM when you where having the brackets made. It certainly sounds like the offset of the discs you have are wrong or the extenders.
The extenders usually use the standard gt turbo caliper mate, you will need to chop and change your caliper extenders to suit the 4pots.
Its been machined to fit the willwood briggs
If i fit the willwood and the extenders on the gt turbo disk no clearance issues only the disk is not large enough ie diameter wise.
If i fit the willwood and the extenders with the r21 txi disk the offset is not right and the disk sits proud of when the gt disk sits and therefore will not fit into the guide for the disk and pads.
Sorry its a bit hard to explain
as you can see the centre offset is different to the gt disk
Matt Cole
02-02-2011, 17:54
from memory i think from the surface of the disc to the top of the hub face is 40mm?
from memory i think from the surface of the disc to the top of the hub face is 40mm?
Do you mean picture 2? its 20ml on the txi it 10ml
21 txi I'm pretty sure is 32 o/all 20 thick . 5 is what ? 41 o/all . Wrong extender design by the looks of it .Where they made with actual 21 txi disks in hand ?
21 txi I'm pretty sure is 32 o/all 20 thick . 5 is what ? 41 o/all . Wrong extender design by the looks of it .Where they made with actual 21 txi disks in hand ?
According to brembos website txi has an overall height of 31.8 and 21ml thick
gt turbo is overall 41 and 20ml thick
I have been speaking to andy and he measured up from a k-tec big brake kit which he believes to be a 285 txi disk, he is going to have a measure up.
Is the k tec kit just a txi disk?
Question, loads of guys have fitted larger disks, put the txi disks on with extenders then a standard gt turbo calliper.
Do the extenders just move the calliper further out the disk for the larger of size 285 or do the extenders also move the calliper further out from the disk face ie the overall hub height size to?
I bet if marts reading this he is thinking, should have just stuck with standard discs and ds pads like i told you :laugh:
Question, loads of guys have fitted larger disks, put the txi disks on with extenders then a standard gt turbo calliper.
Do the extenders just move the calliper further out the disk for the larger of size 285 or do the extenders also move the calliper further out from the disk face ie the overall hub height size to?
I think you already know the answer to that one ....:crap:
I think you already know the answer to that one ....:crap:
Just had a chat with andy, standard extender brackets (for a gt turbo calliper) will only move the calliper further out to the 285ml and not in or out from the face of the disk.
He also measured his larger 285 disk against his standard gt and the both have a 20ml clearance from disk face to the outer hub face.
These txi brembo only have 10ml
Does anyone else have txi disks to hand they could measure?
Had a good look round and all txi discs have an overall thickness of 31.8 mm and are 21mm thick so leaving ruffly 10ml from the disc face to the hub face, so my discs are the same as all other txis.
Problem i now have is measure for new extenders to take txi disc or try to buy some discs with the same thickness as the gt of 41mm.
Andy mentioned that his was a k tec set up he measured of believing them to be the same as the txis.
So on the phone to k tec tomorrow :cry:.
Matt Cole
02-02-2011, 20:14
I guess I was only 1mm Out! But yeah its something I have been through and ended up with a set of lancia discs
youngscottie
02-02-2011, 21:07
dont supose you guys would be willing to help
i made caliper extenders to suit the 21 txi discs
copied an ap bracket but ive never had any luck sourcing the txi discs
my local motor factors cant id them
would any of yous have a part number for the discs
cheers
Alan
dont supose you guys would be willing to help
i made caliper extenders to suit the 21 txi discs
copied an ap bracket but ive never had any luck sourcing the txi discs
my local motor factors cant id them
would any of yous have a part number for the discs
cheers
Alan
my brembo are 09.4626.20 :)
Tony Walker
02-02-2011, 21:30
Not trying to fit the wrong extender on the wrong side/wrong way round? i did do this with my extenders because they looked wrong when fitted correctly lol.
Not trying to fit the wrong extender on the wrong side/wrong way round? i did do this with my extenders because they looked wrong when fitted correctly lol.
No, fitted from the back of hub, i did wonder though, basically the txi disk has a different offset to the gt.
Im hoping the guy at brembo will help me out with something similar like what matt said, the lancier is very close, think the centres will just need machined out from 59 to 61
Matt Cole
02-02-2011, 21:51
No, fitted from the back of hub, i did wonder though, basically the txi disk has a different offset to the gt.
Im hoping the guy at brembo will help me out with something similar like what matt said, the lancier is very close, think the centres will just need machined out from 59 to 61
Yes mate that's the ones as I think the will wood caliper's are very close dimensionally to the hi specs. You will also have to elongate the bolt holes slightly or you'll pull the thread off the bolts when fitting.
Tony Walker
02-02-2011, 22:01
Your discs do look identical to mine. heres a pic if it helps, i know it is a different setup but atleast you can compare.
so does anybody know for sure what k tec used as cant see any elongated holes on my discs that form part of the big brake conversion :scratch:
Your discs do look identical to mine. heres a pic if it helps, i know it is a different setup but atleast you can compare.
You can see on those that the extender is moving the caliper out from the original mount face on the hub carrier to suit the TXI disc .
just seen this thread, give me 5 minutes.............
Right, i've been in the garage for ya Phil
My larger disks (old set up and I presume from the 21) which work with the standard caliper have a dimension from the face of the disk to the face of the wheel mounting of 18mm (see first pic). The disks to go with the Hi Specs have this measurement as 22mm (see second pic on the car).
I have taken a picture of the caliper where the disk rotates through. When i first installed the caliper, i too thought my old disks would be OK, however as you look at this picture, the disk was not central and was more to the right (front) of the caliper and therefore incorrect. I presume this is the problem you have, and would make sense with the 4mm difference
If you do a search, i remember reading through the slagging off of high spec brakes that someone had sourced the correct disc instead of paying hi specs prices, however they needed to get the spigot hole made bigger. I'll see if i can find it.
Also if you look on my "Your my Boy Blue" thread, the first pic is with the old disc, and a picture further down is the hi spec disc. Mine don't have elongated holes at all.
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=958&highlight=spec+discs
This may help?
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=958&highlight=spec+discs
This may help?
Cheers captain, i thought i was going mad :confused:
It would seem that the txi discs do definitely pull the discs further out from the hub compared to a gt disc, so the extenders being used with the txi set up and standard calipers must allow for this, ie pull disc out a little.
I think like what andy thought, myself included that all large disc conversion used a 21 txi disc. I think the 4 pot kits must source another disc.
From the comment on here and ref the other thread it seems lacier discs are going to closer to what i need tho keep the disc sitting a bit closer to the hub.
Going to ring brembo today to try and cross reference with some other disc options.
Have you seen this ?
http://www.brembo.com/ENG/catalogo_BRECO/2010/index.html
Have you seen this ?
http://www.brembo.com/ENG/catalogo_BRECO/2010/index.html
Thanks for that, it looks exactly the same as the brembo catalog.
I have been cross referencing the lancia with the gt turbo and they do look similar overall width is 43.5mm
Phil, As per my photo of a cross section through the caliper, how does the disk foul the caliper? to the front or rear and by how much in mm? Sorry if this info is already in your tread.
Use the search by dimension tool . 284 diameter comes up more than 285 .Depends just how much scope you have .5 hole is also a lot more common .You can search using a min of 2 data fields :agree:
I bet if marts reading this he is thinking, should have just stuck with standard discs and ds pads like i told you :laugh:
:wasntme:
'Mostly ignored since 1996' ;)
Phil, As per my photo of a cross section through the caliper, how does the disk foul the caliper? to the front or rear and by how much in mm? Sorry if this info is already in your tread.
It fouls to the front, outside edge of caliper, approx 7-8mm. Im going to have a proper measure up tonight.
Use the search by dimension tool . 284 diameter comes up more than 285 .Depends just how much scope you have .5 hole is also a lot more common .You can search using a min of 2 data fields :agree:
I will have a good play today see if a 5 stud disc may work to, im sure there are more options :)
:wasntme:
'Mostly ignored since 1996' ;)
:D
I have had a chat with the guy at brembo, it seems there are a few options.
I had a bit more of a look at the set up, If i go of the gt turbo disc the centre is light up nearly perfect i could maybe do with the disc to sit 2ml back to be exact.
So if a gt disc is 41 im going to be looking for a disc around that figure maybe a bit larger to move the disc back a little more. The lancier disc has a overall height of 43.5, i think this is probably the best way to go.
Next problem the calliper just rubs on my 16" momo arrow, so i can either fit a wheel spacer on the front or move the extender back with a washer maybe.
The Williams wheels i bought for the track fit fine loads of room, i was considering going for some team dynamics pro race 1.2, just worried now the might also catch.
I will have a proper look on sat when its a bit lighter.
just out of interest phil,which lancia discs did you go for in the end, was thinking about this today, felt guilty/responsible:( even if you used a "txi disc" you would never have cleared the inside of edge of 99.9 % of alloy wheels, due to the thicker side walls of the 4 pots, i dont suppose k tec or cgb let on what they used?:(
Right, i've been in the garage for ya Phil
My larger disks (old set up and I presume from the 21) which work with the standard caliper have a dimension from the face of the disk to the face of the wheel mounting of 18mm (see first pic). The disks to go with the Hi Specs have this measurement as 22mm (see second pic on the car).
I have taken a picture of the caliper where the disk rotates through. When i first installed the caliper, i too thought my old disks would be OK, however as you look at this picture, the disk was not central and was more to the right (front) of the caliper and therefore incorrect. I presume this is the problem you have, and would make sense with the 4mm difference
If you do a search, i remember reading through the slagging off of high spec brakes that someone had sourced the correct disc instead of paying hi specs prices, however they needed to get the spigot hole made bigger. I'll see if i can find it.
Also if you look on my "Your my Boy Blue" thread, the first pic is with the old disc, and a picture further down is the hi spec disc. Mine don't have elongated holes at all.
looked into extenders from hi spec before, as they only have a .5mm centre difference to the wilwwod midilite, wanted a 100 notes plus postage which is why i went with the machined extenders:(
my discs have a reading of 18/19 mm between disc face and wheel face, and ive had no problems with clearance at all, in fact i have a 4mm more gap on outside edge of disk to brake pad/ caliper:scratch:
just out of interest phil,which lancia discs did you go for in the end, was thinking about this today, felt guilty/responsible:( even if you used a "txi disc" you would never have cleared the inside of edge of 99.9 % of alloy wheels, due to the thicker side walls of the 4 pots, i dont suppose k tec or cgb let on what they used?:(
I have not sorted it out yet andy, brembo have said i can send them back, so thats good, just need to find the best disc or as close to what i will need to make the extenders work.
You are right, no way a txi disc would work with the willwoods or any other 4 pots i would imagine due to offset of the disc.
I will update the thread as soon as i have some more info :)
I have not sorted it out yet andy, brembo have said i can send them back, so thats good, just need to find the best disc or as close to what i will need to make the extenders work.
You are right, no way a txi disc would work with the willwoods or any other 4 pots i would imagine due to offset of the disc.
I will update the thread as soon as i have some more info :)
:cool:
if anybody else knows what discs are used in the k tec big brake kit, please share the knowlegde with the rest of us:sos::sos:
Here is a few pictures of how the calipers sit with the extenders on a gt turbo disc.
I have found a disc that has a very similar profile to a gt turbo disc, It has an overall height of 43.3, disc width is 22mm, it even has 4x100 stud pattern, the centres are a 60mm so machine out by 1mm. Job done.
0.10mm :coffee: 60.10 innit
0.10mm :coffee: 60.10 innit
ey :confused:
Im not addind 10th of a mm im adding 1mm 1.0mm
The hole in the disk will be clearance size to the hub center .IE the hub will be 60.00 mm so the hole in the disk will be 0.10 bigger or you'll struggle to fit if size for size .61.00 will be sloppy :agree:
The hole in the disk will be clearance size to the hub center .IE the hub will be 60.00 mm so the hole in the disk will be 0.10 bigger or you'll struggle to fit if size for size .61.00 will be sloppy :agree:
I get you the gt turbo runs a 61.00mm hub centre, correct?
So i need to get the disc machined from 59.00mm to 61.10, is that what you are saying?
oops ignore me
It is 61.00 :o I was thinking wheels ...there is a step up on the hub where the disk mounts .Sorry to confuse :scared:
oops ignore me
it is 61.00
Sorry, the info i got from the brembo site said the gt has a 61 centering diamiter and in the disc measurements it says the discs have a cenrte hole of 61.084 61.010 the txi discs are 61.084 61.000.
The ones im looking at are listed as 60 in the measurements it says 60.065 60.000
oops ignore me
It is 61.00 :o I was thinking wheels ...there is a step up on the hub where the disk mounts .Sorry to confuse :scared:
Its ok mate just want to make sure i get it done right, so my disc would go from 60mm to 61.10?
No ,you're 100% right .
I was in wheel mode , just drawn up some hubcentric spacers for a guy and had that figure in my head
No ,you're 100% right .
I was in wheel mode , just drawn up some hubcentric spacers for a guy and had that figure in my head
No probs :)
:)
The point I was trying to make is don't make them dead size to the male bit or they'll be a bitch to fit and get off :agree:
Today i have been having a measure up, moving calliper back a little and messing with wheel spacers.
My 16" arrows will not clear the callipers, im have been trying a 3mm wheel spacer on to see how much i can pull the extender back for my wheel to be clear.
3mm was not enough wheels still catching, and to top it of i have scratched my calliper. I masked them up and was so careful when nipping the wheel up, but on taking it back of its scratched the calliper :cry:
To get this to work with the momo 16" alloys im going to have to pull the extender back 3mm with washers and probably use a 3mm wheel spacer :(.
Update on the brakes, i bought the lancier discs, i have had the centres machine and elongated the stud holes. Thank god they fit, i have fitted an m12 washer to pull the calliper back a little to line up, so the disc and callipers are bang on centre :)
Next problem, im probably going to have to run 5 maybe 6mm spacer to clear the momo alloys. I think the best way to do this will be buy a full stud kit for the car, it will make taking the wheels on and on alot easier.
2nd problem, my brand new goodridge hoses are to short on the front on full lock so im either going to have some longer pipes made or use a banjo kit with a 45* in it, which just might work :crap:
Oh the joys
glad your getting there phil:)know it wont help your wheels ,but os8472 came over last sat and tried his 15" rims, fitted a treat , no problems with clearance what so ever :scratch:
Mate, i know you must be thinking in some respect............."i wish i'd never bothered" but keep at it, it will be worth it.
glad your getting there phil:)know it wont help your wheels ,but os8472 came over last sat and tried his 15" rims, fitted a treat , no problems with clearance what so ever :scratch:
Its the arrows, i had to grind the back callipers to get them on the back but got away with the front, until now that is. Yet the Williams wheels sail on :scratch:, i have been told 5 spokes generally have alot more meat on the inside edge of the spokes.
What style were your mates?
What did you do with the brake hoses, the goodridge are now to short?
Also when searching for a stud conversion what did you end up going foe andy?
Mate, i know you must be thinking in some respect............."i wish i'd never bothered" but keep at it, it will be worth it.
A little :laugh:
New rear discs, bearings, pads another rear calliper, wrong front disc's, new ones machined to fit, wheels now not fitting, spacers and stud conversion kit on the cards, calliper scratched, front pads modified to fit calliper and now my goodridge hoses are to short :dearme:
Yeah mart was so right
Captain everything on this car has been hard work so im used to it now :laugh:
i replaced the lot on mine as they where old, but in your case i would use the existing connection from steel or copper to flexi, and buy longer braid hose and new caliper connection,
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=85_248_249&products_id=1530
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=85_248_249&products_id=1530
cant remember what thread the oe connections are , if they are a m10x1.0 then perhaps one of these
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=85_248_249&products_id=1528
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=85_248_249&products_id=1526
ollies wheels are speedline turini's , he's got a picture of one on my car up close, about 4-5 mm clearance :)
phil ,not sure what you mean by stud conversion?
mine are still 4x100, not running any spacer plates:)
ollies wheels are speedline turini's , he's got a picture of one on my car up close, about 4-5 mm clearance :)
Yeah multi spokes then :)
phil ,not sure what you mean by stud conversion?
mine are still 4x100, not running any spacer plates:)
No, i read you swapped bolts for a stud and nut conversion, just wondered what you used in the end?
:ashamed::ashamed:thats on my to do list, just got bolts at the mo, intending to weld in the stud kit into the back of hubs, later this year once the beast is up and running ,and the rest of the niggles sorted out:D
:ashamed::ashamed:thats on my to do list, just got bolts at the mo, intending to weld in the stud kit into the back of hubs, later this year once the beast is up and running ,and the rest of the niggles sorted out:D
Great, now i will do the complete opposite :laugh: Only jocking :)
ollie has put up that caliper/wheel piccy on my project thread at last!!
ollie has put up that caliper/wheel piccy on my project thread at last!!
Yeah had a look, multi spokes seem to be the best for clearance. Like i said the williams wheels are fine.
Should be getting a stud conversion kit, then a measure up for spacers on the front.
I also look at the banjo you have on, it looks like a 90* then the brake pipe is put round the front of the strut, is that how you have done it?
phil
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