View Full Version : DG to build another vag powered 5
Duncan Grier
15-12-2010, 11:42
Well as you may have noticed in my reply to Fran’s project thread I am going to be building another vag powered Renault 5 for my own sins, lucky for Scoff he does not have to do the fabrication work as will be doing the complete build this time round
Few changes over the original build and will be using the vag 2.0 turbo Tsi engine and a variant of the 6 speed box (a nice short square one) was going to use the Tsi engine which is better but the change to change over the belt means it is 3 inch wider and don’t think the 5 will let me get away with it.
Mounting will be the main change but also this is a budget build so no fancy 4 pot breaks etc
At the moment plan is to
Convert to Williams suspension bits (wider)
Mod body to accept the above changes
Custom 3” full exhaust
Oe management
Diff
Cage – with extra work to join to suspension turrets
Will prob start with about 325bhp and see how it goes from there but map out a lot of the low down torque to assist traction
So on the look out for a bargain base car for this and will get to work in the new year
Will still do another vx220 with tsi conversion but funds don’t allow for a couple of years so figured go with a cheap, fun project that should still go well – maybe have a goal of 8 min lap of the ring :D my current quickest is only 8:03 though in the vx lol
Penfold aka The Dealer
15-12-2010, 11:48
Chop chop & then sell it to me... cheaply. :)
Dunc are you with the VXR track day lot? A mate of mine has got involved recently and has been on a number of outings with the club of late. I wonder if you know of each other.
Chris Wright, genuine easy going bloke - Red VXR, black track wheels. Been on the France trip a few weeks ago (where the gendarme made everyone who had velcro number plates rivet them on)!
Nice one mate. Looking forward to the progress pic's/reports :)
Should've bought Whitey after all... ;)
Edit: No, I never should've sold it after all... :(
Could you do a trial run in the back of mine, just to check you have 325hp? :niceone:
Duncan Grier
15-12-2010, 12:00
Yes heavily involved in the VX220 club and know most of them through the boards or meets / events and the other half working on their cars :coffee:
Yes can be fun in France but I was always fine even after loosing my number plate due to grounding out and loosing it. Almost as bad as going Wales lol
Got one in the garage atm for full rebuild / garrett conversion but due to new arrival of baby have halted all other work for a few months which should be enough to build the 5 and finish this one off
They are a good bunch and made some really good friends there - kind of like this site :agree:
It's fair to say there is not much I don't know about the vx now but woking on a 5 is going to a nice change as its even easier :cooter: if I can remember lol. And nice to do something a bit different as once you have worked on them so much you get a bit.........well bored with it :wasntme:
DG
Duncan Grier
15-12-2010, 12:02
Nice one mate. Looking forward to the progress pic's/reports :)
Should've bought Whitey after all... ;)
Edit: No, I never should've sold it after all... :(
Mart I was tempted but would not have wanted to chop that one up and the barge is a beter everyday car for my needs now
And the key of this time round is cheap - expect to pay about what we were taking for the conversion ;)
C7borg - not sure what you mean? Maybe need more coffee lol
DG
just out of interest mate what tsi engine is it that produces the 325bhp
just out of interest mate what tsi engine is it that produces the 325bhp
Doesn't the seat leon use a 2.0 TSI engine so does the passat, scirocco
I know you have the smaller 1.2 and 1.4 TSI engines but I assume they will be a bit small for the Grier:D
C7borg - not sure what you mean? Maybe need more coffee lol
DG
Do the conversion in the boot of my r5, test it's kicking the full 325hp and then feel free to put it in your car, then I'll put my engine back.. I just want to see what it feels like - all for free of course :)
Oh and I'd make you a cup of coffee :agree:
In all seriousness I can't wait to see it!
A remap + better flowing exhaust would equate to an easy 300hp+ from the 2L TSI.
Duncan Grier
15-12-2010, 12:19
just out of interest mate what tsi engine is it that produces the 325bhp
They dont from the factory but the later tsi lump from the audi range has a different head and spec of turbo over the other direct fuel injection (fsi, tfsi, tsi) lumps which most of is the same and only spec of turbo and head revisions play in the last bit of extra power available in for of different specs of k04 and ihi turbos
The one I have put aside for the vx with software will produce 375bhp and with 3071 and uprated fuel pump (piston type) takes it to 425 without opening, very low lag due to very high compression and even the pump is only needed to retain torque low down.
Have the codes and various other info in the garage but have a good friend who does nothing but vag day in / out so tend to just ask him :agree:
The whole tsi / Tfsi thing is a lot of the time same engine but different car - gold gti vs sline a4 etc
DG
Duncan Grier
15-12-2010, 12:20
A remap + better flowing exhaust would equate to an easy 300hp+ from the 2L TSI.
Or the quick answer :coffee:
Duncan Grier
15-12-2010, 12:21
Do the conversion in the boot of my r5, test it's kicking the full 325hp and then feel free to put it in your car, then I'll put my engine back.. I just want to see what it feels like - all for free of course :)
Oh and I'd make you a cup of coffee :agree:
Ok lol, makes sense now :)
get someone to take oyu out in a vx220 turbo with 300bhp will give you the same effect and easier to do :cooter: straight line performance that is
DG
Duncan Grier
15-12-2010, 12:26
Doesn't the seat leon use a 2.0 TSI engine so does the passat, scirocco
I know you have the smaller 1.2 and 1.4 TSI engines but I assume they will be a bit small for the Grier:D
Most things feel....a bit normal after 3.4 to 60 and 8.6 secs to a ton for a road car :(
the 1.4 lump was tempting as it will produce 220bhp and 7 speed dsg box for some fun but dont want to go all Al with one of those flappy boxes and missing pedal :laugh:
Yes the leon uses that engine
Should be a fun build and nice product at the end - Penfol you can have 1st refusal on sale but let me build it 1st :wasntme:
Or the quick answer :coffee:
That's all Seat pretty much done to the top end Cupra R's.
Woznaldo
16-12-2010, 03:04
They never stray far from the nest!... Sounds like another interesting project DG, can't wait to see some progress pics.:cool:
Duncan Grier
16-12-2010, 12:39
Ok well big thanks to Flan, got the william bits ready to collect soon :-)
So now need a car, prefer good body work but dont care about other bits. Needs to be cheap though and can collect
Should have an engine soon so would be nice to get the engine and box mounted over xmas but obviously car required
Campus?
Most of the gubbins from a GTT would be of no use/binned anyway...
Duncan Grier
16-12-2010, 17:27
True Mart and another option but still wanted to keep most of the oe turboness if possible and saves hunting down all the silly little things I would want - Picture oe arches widened to house the extended track :cool:
Although as you say 90% will not be used
See how the turbo hunt goes and it no joy will explore this - Big steve found an interesting one
Itching to get it started over xmas :coffee:
DG
good look with it pal.i started to do a 1.8 20v about 2 months ago but am looking for 600bhp all steel the cost if out off this world but will be worth it:D
Duncan Grier
16-12-2010, 18:54
That much power I would not use the 1.8 but go with the 2lt newer turbo ;)
Unless its pure drag machine it will never work fwd my old one could struggle with 270 and diff fitted
DG
Picture oe arches widened to house the extended track :cool:
DG[/QUOTE]
Prima's hill climb car already has something similar.
I'd be after something similar to this.
That much power I would not use the 1.8 but go with the 2lt newer turbo ;)
Unless its pure drag machine it will never work fwd my old one could struggle with 270 and diff fitted
DG
sorry to say but the 1.8 is better than the 2.0 dont under stand why the other you had struggled in what way
Duncan Grier
16-12-2010, 21:48
sorry to say but the 1.8 is better than the 2.0 dont under stand why the other you had struggled in what way
Based on what data? Certainly from a road / power delivery point of view the direct fuel injection / high compression over a 3rd inlet valve for swirl effect does not compare! Run a garrett 3076 on both and its clear. The direct fuel inj reaches a point for big power and is a restriction bit affraid the newer 2.0 is still better and a lot cheaper to extract big numbers. But I am only basing it on gps stats and the same rr so could be wrong.
Guess thats why I am not using the cheaper older vag lump.
Tsi can do 375 with std turbo no 1.8 gets close
What do I know :-) just love crazy projects whoever does them
Duncan Grier
16-12-2010, 21:59
Struggled with 270bhp and 893kg due to fwd a very short driveshaft on one side and lots of low down torque which is fine for a heavy golf but as I found with the astra vxr lump fitted to my vx220 in a light car is a waste and needs mapping out correctly. New oe maagemnt a lot better on the later engines also
Struggled with 270bhp and 893kg due to fwd a very short driveshaft on one side and lots of low down torque which is fine for a heavy golf but as I found with the astra vxr lump fitted to my vx220 in a light car is a waste and needs mapping out correctly. New oe maagemnt a lot better on the later engines also
i see where your coming from yes 375bhp no problem on 2.0 but a lot of power u need to remove the injectors etc or run 2 sets with the never engine because i want loads of bhp the 1.8 thats now a 1.9 seems to be the better option for me on stand alone the c1j in the white 1 is running 270bhp with no nos but the large turbo makes it nice to drive on the road
Duncan Grier
17-12-2010, 10:21
You are correct at a point the direct fuel injection becomes a restriction. The problem I had with the 1.8 20vt was the instant power low down which a c1j with the same power will not have this issue, the same as having a massive turbo on the vag lump you will loose a lot of the low down torque and prob make driving a bit easier
I have always wanted a wide spread of power for my uses having a small large power band is only good for drag strip imo not what I have wanted to achieve
For certain the 1.8 engine can extract big power but does need some internal work and money spent on custom parts
Also if you plan to retain the stand alone management it will def be easier to use the older engine setup
I was tempted to use the 1.8TSI n/a engine bore to 2ltr and destroke it for a nice 300bhp rev monster but you know a R5 turbo needs a turbo engine :agree:
Looks like there are a few hybrid builds going on and be really interesting to compare at some point - got the race logic box to capture stats ;)
DG
Big Steve - Raider
17-12-2010, 11:09
got the race logic box to capture stats
Loooookout! :laugh:
Struggled with 270bhp and 893kg due to fwd a very short driveshaft on one side
Duncan.. I think I'm suffering from this but I've only got 170ish through the rear wheels I would have thought with the weight over the rear wheels I'd have considerably more grip...
how do you get rid of wheel spin on the vrx? isn't that a simular.. and how will you get rid of it..with the tsi engine?
I was on the way to work this morning in and the tyres lit up at mid to high rpm in second, I know I can let off the accelarator but ultimatley I want to use the power on the tarmac.. I'm using toyo proxies maybe it's just to cold?
Duncan Grier
17-12-2010, 11:43
The VXR engine / 6 speed box conversion into the vx220 turbo is mid engined rwd and the chassis is very good so I never found traction an issue (in the dry on cut clicks) wet was a handfull and when it goes you have to be really quick and not over correct or it gets messy :scared:
I am building a fwd vag 5 not rwd so extra weight over the front but rear will be the same other than running the williams rear beam
diff makes a massive difference on a fwd car with power but the new engine / manafgement allows me to remove some of the low down torque and reatin a very smooth almost s/c power delivery so no bit power spikes - you can of course obtain this on aftermarket systems and certainly scoff's very well place to offer this
I tend to run R888's or R1R's on the vx and found the T1r's...well crap lol
Certainly this time of year the tyres are not designed to work at these temps and will def not help
DG
Loooookout! :laugh:
:D......here we go....grier..grier..his pants are gna be on fier!!!!...:laugh:
Thanks for that.. I think tyres are my first step, I really want the r888 SG's as I'll be mainly using it for hill climbing < 1 mile. I rarely do more than 50 miles a week so they should be okay on the road I just wonder if I did a motorway journey they would heat up and lose a few mm tread.. or maybe they're not quite that soft ?
Duncan Grier
17-12-2010, 12:01
I always ran GG as the SG disapear :D but for hill climbing suspect better suited
Easy J know you are glad I am back in the mix with a silly build again but control yourself man :cooter:
and found the T1r's...well crap lol
Pah, they're a great tyre :) ;) Not so great when you slick them, and then have to drive home from the 'Ring in the pouring rain :eek: :cry:
Thanks for that.. I think tyres are my first step, I really want the r888 SG's as I'll be mainly using it for hill climbing < 1 mile. I rarely do more than 50 miles a week so they should be okay on the road I just wonder if I did a motorway journey they would heat up and lose a few mm tread.. or maybe they're not quite that soft ?
i think you would have to drive a lot of miles before you loose a few mm tread on motorway runs,there be fine for the use you are saying.
:)
Duncan Grier
17-12-2010, 12:36
They were fine on the 5 from memory but pants on the vx - Mart you geeza :coffee:
Agree light weight car on motorway should be fine
jesus in the seat of a 5
17-12-2010, 16:15
Agree light weight car on motorway should be fine[/quote]
lightweight car for a lightweight person, nice to hear your back...;), with your son on the go i expect the project to be ready for national day 2020....:wasntme::laugh:
Agree light weight car on motorway should be fine
wheel spin city... here we come.........:burnrubber::burnrubber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=plcMf6ZacUI
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
another, just for good measure:cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jrp8fg3q3Ds
Adey aka Ewok
17-12-2010, 21:19
them vids look like they were dubed with the sound of a fast car
them vids look like they were dubed with the sound of a fast car
Doesn't even look like its accelerating :laugh:
Doesn't even look like its accelerating :laugh:
my mate kenny's orion is faster...thats s h i t man....:D
Not much to do with this thread but nice mk1 golf turbo build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ytkVUopJo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq0eJjaE0JE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Chris Hebden
18-12-2010, 11:49
Duncan, please please PLEASE run standalone and let Scoff loose on it!!!!!! The previous VAG 5 was amazing but in my opinion this one is going to be so much better with the engine change AND letting Scoff loose on the ECU!!!!!!!
PLEASEEEEEE!!!!!!!
Duncan Grier
20-12-2010, 18:37
Well been out with the tape measure today reviewing engine and box choice and as expected cant do the one I want :-( 4wd option put to bed and non starter due to amount of risk of how the 4wd will work after creating a shorter wheelbase and ecu controling the power. Dsg was never in the mix but after seeing box its ruled out and the tsi is approx 2 inc wider and from a catch up chat with scoff we do not think there is he room to get it in after comparing to the original conversion. So fsi looks the one with the 6 speed box although certain fd will need changing to oil burner again.
Just not great weather for tracking down that needed 5
Not thought about a TDi lump mate?
Duncan Grier
20-12-2010, 18:47
Not thought about a TDi lump mate?
The one thing the 5 does not need is a low reving high torque engine, but did think about it
Says the man who stuck a VAG turbo lump into a 5 ;)
TDi could work - Depends upon application...
this threads getting carried away.....one thing at a time find a nice 5 first!
:D
Mr G, that FD you want comes from the DRW code of 02M, asuming it is 02M you're using after all ?
Duncan Grier
21-12-2010, 11:35
Says the man who stuck a VAG turbo lump into a 5 ;)
TDi could work - Depends upon application...
At last can reply with a keyboard and not touch phone, android mo fo :crap:
Mart did always think it would be a good conversion and could track all day on atank of derv :wasntme: but weigh more than the petrol version and most of the tdi's power is low down as you would expect - the new ones rev well for a diesel but tbh it is jjust not going to work well fwd imo
20vt was only 270 ft/lb torque and most of the diesels come with that before touching the ecu :cooter:
Scoff thanks for the heads up on the fd, saves me looking around again to confirm, yep looks like the box I am going to use - compared to the 02J yesterday and see what you mean :agree:
So as J states before things get to carried away someone give me a shell :laugh: got Mike on backup but with current weather not going to happen collecting that far atm :(
DG
but weigh more than the petrol version
That extra weight would be over the front wheels, plus the oem ecu has T/C as standard anyway :)
Just personally think it would make an awesome all-round car. Maybe one day...
Duncan Grier
21-12-2010, 13:28
VAG derv drag car FTW :D - black rod tuning
Good for traction but effects the corners a bit :cooter: remember I have to get past your barge on track still :rolleyes:
Tell you what someone give me 2 shells and will do an Fsi conversion and derv conversion for that 100mpg - prob same mounting points and running lower egt's will make cooling eaiser
Going to look at teh tc option just for fun mart hence the williams bits with pickups but think it needs to run the abs also as they are tied in
Something to look at further down the line as the plan was raw basic not high end lux with stability control, cruise, abs, launch control, flappy gay box, leather - but I am getting older lol
EOS lump getting checked over today, has a dsg box attached so need to confirm 2nd hand box for it also
DG
jesus in the seat of a 5
22-12-2010, 09:39
shouldnt this be in the projects section....old goat..:laugh::wasntme::p, ditch the whols idea and finally come to the dark side of the c1j...you know it makes sense rodders..:cooter:
Matt Cole
22-12-2010, 11:34
Dunc,
Why do this in a 5? Clios are plentyfull, more space and would probably have less rot and panel availability / longevity when it gets stuffed into a tyre wall! :crap:
Andrew Cooke
22-12-2010, 12:59
Dunc,
Why do this in a 5? Clios are plentyfull, more space and would probably have less rot and panel availability / longevity when it gets stuffed into a tyre wall! :crap:
or a VW for better longevity and parts compatibility?
Duncan Grier
22-12-2010, 13:08
Dunc,
Why do this in a 5? Clios are plentyfull, more space and would probably have less rot and panel availability / longevity when it gets stuffed into a tyre wall! :crap:
5's are cool - clio's are not
Clio would be easier and probably a better base but there is no real challenge there or as many custom bits to play with
And yet to stack it yet - few offs and spins but thanks for the heads up :laugh:
Jesus even you cant make a c1j reliable and 300bhp :ashamed:
But in all honestly not even thought about doing a clio, they are more chav than the 5 now lol
Duncan Grier
22-12-2010, 13:08
or a VW for better longevity and parts compatibility?
And that :agree:
Adey aka Ewok
22-12-2010, 19:35
mk1 clio is not that diff to a 5. i think you should build it into a campus shell and keep it looking like a campus:agree:
...and here was I thinking you'd seen the light at the rear of the tunnel DG :sad2::coffee:
...and here was I thinking you'd seen the light at the rear of the tunnel DG :sad2::coffee:
don't worry, he plans to drive it backwards most of the time :)
Duncan Grier
22-12-2010, 20:13
Lol thanks guys! If only turbo 2's were not so expensive.
Bit torn at the moment with options but do have a REAL soft spot for the 5 even though there are easier base cars
DG
Andrew Cooke
22-12-2010, 21:16
don't worry, he plans to drive it backwards most of the time :)
is that an aero thing?
Interesting read.
PM Big Supes http://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=1486 as he is giving away a free shell that be of use.
Andrew Cooke
23-12-2010, 08:12
Interesting read.
PM Big Supes http://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=1486 as he is giving away a free shell that be of use.
that'll be the one that was 'so rusty' he scrapped the car
Duncan Grier
23-12-2010, 10:17
Well just as I have started to seriously think about using the 172 as a base car for the project I have been offered a free 5 :cool:
May just work out after all, must not stack it :D
DG
so then DG whats the score with the cooling on this project....custom chargecooler with 2 pre-rads again or are you going to sort out a custom fmic of some kind......very tight?..;)
:)
Duncan Grier
03-01-2011, 09:00
J depends on a few things and not thought about it yet tbh :-)
jesus in the seat of a 5
03-01-2011, 12:21
J depends on a few things and not thought about it yet tbh :-)
err maybe hes too busy with....say...a son...:D
Pah ! they're easy to deal with at that age ,wait till you've got three running round the garage ' helping ' :scared: Just wrap up warm and plonk him in a car seat :coffee:
Duncan Grier
31-01-2011, 13:42
Alas the 5 / VAG project never fully started and has be bined although was getting some speed behind it :(
I have now purchased another vx220 turbo which I have some small repaires to bring it back to a VERY nice oe example (only done 7k) I will prob sell this as it is too nice to build as a track beast with the vag tsi turbo lump.
But also have a track car to build, locost (7 style replica) race car which has a bit of a special chassis which is getting the vag treatment and gearbox tbc but 2wd cossie T5 looking like it may be used as the type 9 on the car costs silly money to beef up and still on the limit.
So will have a pure track car with at least 500bhp per ton to start with to give me my track thrills and see how the vx220 goes with a view for something a bit fruity after :cool:
Would have loved to do another 5 and few special extras but do have someone getting me to put the vag in clio 172 so still kind of doing one, just not for me :wasntme:
Will share the track beast build when I free up a weekend to start
Plan to have the track beast for it's shake down at Mallory in June :coffee:
DG
http://jn019.k12.sd.us/Example%20for%20Tech%20Apps/Drake.gif
Duncan Grier
31-01-2011, 19:07
Mark that power graph is a bit spiky ;-)
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