View Full Version : New stuff for 2011
Hi Andy,
Which taper do you mean ? I can only think of the rod end taper.
Yes, new ears on the dampers is the way I'll go. It's just interesting that the hubs can be made to fit as is with very little work. I'll cut the ears off the dampers and make new ones with 15mm more reach.
Regards wishbones, I'll just cut the mounting section out and weld a new piece in. I can't afford to move the wheels even 10mm forward or back, the tyres only just fit in the arch. R11 would have been nice if they happened to be 15mm wider than R5!
Inner bearings ? I havn't seen those. I don't know if they would help me because I'm already elongating the wishbone holes in the subframe and that might only get worse if I fit bearings. Maybe not, or maybe it'll be fine if I thicken the mounting points up.
Plating the wishbone sounds good, the traction bars work wonders but occasionally I have sheered the mountings off the subframe because the wishbone has (presumably ?) flexed. Or maybe that's just movement in the bushes. I've not had a problem since I beefed up the traction bar mounts.
By the way, it's alarming how much chunkier the 172 hubs are compared with the R5 isn't it. Looking at the top of the R5 hub I can't believe I havn't snapped one! Actually they're Clio 16v ones I run but they're the same spindly casting. Only the bearings are larger in those.
I might try tacking up a few pieces tonight to see if I can get the hub and wheel sat where I want them.
Andrew Cooke
05-10-2011, 18:08
Hi Andy,
Which taper do you mean ? I can only think of the rod end taper.
Yes, new ears on the dampers is the way I'll go. It's just interesting that the hubs can be made to fit as is with very little work. I'll cut the ears off the dampers and make new ones with 15mm more reach.
Regards wishbones, I'll just cut the mounting section out and weld a new piece in. I can't afford to move the wheels even 10mm forward or back, the tyres only just fit in the arch. R11 would have been nice if they happened to be 15mm wider than R5!
Inner bearings ? I havn't seen those. I don't know if they would help me because I'm already elongating the wishbone holes in the subframe and that might only get worse if I fit bearings. Maybe not, or maybe it'll be fine if I thicken the mounting points up.
Plating the wishbone sounds good, the traction bars work wonders but occasionally I have sheered the mountings off the subframe because the wishbone has (presumably ?) flexed. Or maybe that's just movement in the bushes. I've not had a problem since I beefed up the traction bar mounts.
By the way, it's alarming how much chunkier the 172 hubs are compared with the R5 isn't it. Looking at the top of the R5 hub I can't believe I havn't snapped one! Actually they're Clio 16v ones I run but they're the same spindly casting. Only the bearings are larger in those.
I might try tacking up a few pieces tonight to see if I can get the hub and wheel sat where I want them.
Bottom balljoint taper.
I knew they fitted easy - I've done it on the Twingo :) Interestingly (or not) the part of the hub that the damper bolts to is thicker on the Twingo than on a valver /GTT. The only thing you might have to watch for is bump steer, but with all the other changes you probably have to watch for it anyway. Does your suspension actually move much these days?
The laguna uprights are a similar step again up from the 172, they are hooge.
I'm trying to think whether moving the holes out on the damper will sort out the camber, I'm pretty sure you'll need to tweek the angle too.:scratch:
Well, the extended ears will sort the camber when the steering is in the straight ahead position but it'll have odd effects on camber (and caster I guess) when the steering is moved. I'll effectively have moved the lower pivot and not the top. I'm not sure I care about any of that though.
Suspension doesn't move much, bump steer isn't high on my list of concerns :D
Got cracking with the hubs today. Turns out there's 7mm more track per side in the 172 hubs compared with GT or 16v. I checked the angles and position of the top damper mount holes. Exactly the same as GT, only the stump is wider and the holes are 14mm.
I cut the ears off the damper, drilled the holes to 14mm and welded in some 13mm spacing strips because I want 20mm per side extra track so I can do away with the hubcentric spacers.
I set about getting the caliper on. Not so straight forward :crap: Totally different bolt pitch, pcd and offset compared with GT or 16v. No room for a bracket. I've managed to re-drill and tap for one of the bolts and I've had to weld a tab in for the 2nd. I wasn't too happy about welding in to cast but because of the tabs location there's no way it can move out of situ even if the weld failed. But it won't fail, I hit it with 150A.
Assembly shows everything to be working fine. I need to order some 14mm bolts for the damper and fathom out what thread those caliper bolts are so I can order a tap. They're not metric. 7/16" OD or there abouts. 20tpi ish. I'll measure them tomorrow. Anyone know what they are ?
I measured, theyre 7/16 UNF.
edit: fail, they're M12 x 1.25mm for future reference !
Good stuff, be interesting to see how you get on with the new set up, fair play for chopping & welding stuff like brakes & suspension, would scare the :crap: out of me that I'd get it wrong !
My whole car is held together with "aftermarket" weld :D
Perfectly safe as long as your confident of the weld :)
Bruce - BHPerformance
09-10-2011, 02:50
"I wasn't too happy about welding in to cast but because of the tabs location there's no way it can move out of situ even if the weld failed. But it won't fail, I hit it with 150A."
My rear axle on the megane maxi has just been cut stretched and rewelded using arc and dissimilar metal rods as the mig welds were cracking although my mig only goes up to 130amp. :ashamed: Solid now though. :D
Having received the 7/16 UNF taps I checked them against the bolt. Close but not right. A re-measure shows the bolts to be M12 x 1.25 :rolleyes: Project on hold again until new taps arrive.
[quote=Scoff;237054]But it won't fail, I hit it with 150A.
[quote]
Its not about how much heat you put into cast iron its more a case of how quickly you allow the heat out. You should really pre-heat the whole job, carry out the welding and then allow it to cool in a furnace, or failing that a bucket of dry sand... Its also better, believe it or not, to use a lower amp setting on your welder as it introduces less stress into the material!
Why can't you use 172 calipers anyway?
Hmmn, maybe in the world of the proffessional, but whenever I've attacked cast with low current and mild wire in the past it doesn't work too clever. All I do is heat the lump I'm welding with the torch (because if you don't you don't get penetration until the work is hot from the weld, and cracking when it cools!) and then go at it with big current. About 160A gets the whole lot glowing cherry and the welds "seem" to be pretty good. I agree that it does sound a bit dubious but I'm confident there won't be a problem.
172 calipers and discs are too big to go behind the 13".
Some progress tonight, I got a 172 hub mounted with modified damper brackets and wishbones. Tracked it up and checked the camber. All good and no odd-looking effects when steering because of the extended damper ears. Got a shaft done for that side too. 172 CV's are lots better looking than the GT ones. Ball bearing CV instead of the naff 3 finger thing that keeps breaking. Also the shafts are still hollow. I heard they were solid. That suites me, easier to join. It's one piece though, no brittle cast bit and spline at the outer end. So far it looks promising !
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/172-_hubs_fitted.JPG
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/yet_another_shaft.JPG
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/join.JPG
the bay as it looks these days:
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/bay-2011.JPG
Good work Chris :agree: Should be ready for the last outing @ Pod by the looks of it.
I'll be looking into 172 shafts I think if mine go, the ones on the car look so flimsy & :crap:, with the 19 being wider they may fit right in without many mods as well.
Andrew Cooke
15-10-2011, 13:14
nice job :)
My N/S 172 shaft was solid, and hard as fook too.
Check how many threads of engagement you have on that trackrod end, I had to extend mine.
Andrew Cooke
15-10-2011, 13:18
Good work Chris :agree: Should be ready for the last outing @ Pod by the looks of it.
I'll be looking into 172 shafts I think if mine go, the ones on the car look so flimsy & :crap:, with the 19 being wider they may fit right in without many mods as well.
They may well be the right length, my R19 shafts were the large diameter like my GTT ones, I bought 2 pairs in case I needed a spare at the track.
nice job :)
My N/S 172 shaft was solid, and hard as fook too.
Check how many threads of engagement you have on that trackrod end, I had to extend mine.
I already did, I wouldn't leave that to chance. Its good on that side, but there's a chance there will be less on the other side, the rack may not have been 100% centered to begin with.
Both of my 172 shafts are hollow so there must be different versions out there :)
I got both hubs done tonight. Just awaiting the m12 x1.25mm tap. Here's a picture of the new mounting locations for the GT calipers. One hole sits nicely on existing material while the other is a piece I've welded in.
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/modified-hub.JPG
jamie_clioGTT
16-10-2011, 17:43
Ledgend! That has by far got to be the prettyist engine bay I've ever seen! Your 5 is a credit to you and I hope all your hard work and dedication pays off on the strip in the near future! Wish you all the luck in the world mate!
I got both hubs done tonight. Just awaiting the m12 x1.25mm tap. Here's a picture of the new mounting locations for the GT calipers. One hole sits nicely on existing material while the other is a piece I've welded in.
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/modified-hub.JPG
U should of said could of picked it up and done that for u mate , any thing engineering taps dyes give us a shout matt
Cheers matt, I should have thought. Tap should be here tomorrow so we should be fine.
I've measured up and realised I'll be able to run a bracket behind the caliper to brace the new mounting points to the remaining original hole, so that'll remove some of the worry I had about welding the cast.
A bit more progress tonight. Both dampers done, ball joints in properly and both hubs ready to go. One more shaft to put togehter and it'll be back together.
I noticed one of the dampers had started to bend the ears bit. IE the hub had twised the the brackets on the bottom of the damper. Only one side. I straightened that as I extended it. I've braced the tops with 4mm plate to stop it from twisting again.
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/damper_and_balljoint.JPG
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/172-hub-fitted.JPG
TNT ANDY
18-10-2011, 06:36
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/172-hub-fitted.JPG
Looking good Chris - is there any adjustment in all of this or is it all precision made??? I'm thinking Camber here.
Nah its fixed this time round. Before I had elongated holes in the coilovers. I didn't bother doing that again because I don't imagine I'll be using the car round a race track anytime soon.
I do have some adjustment still because I have extra holes in the turret tops. I tend to just leave it alone though.
Not much movement here for the past few months with business stuff taking over but the new turbo arrived recently and the engine refresh parts are on their way :)
http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Scoff/IMG_0459.JPG
rs250nut
12-01-2012, 13:42
Nice turbo mate, 6766?
Yes, not sure I believe the hype about the 66mm turbine but it can't be any worse than a 65 :)
Is it one of the triple/ceramic bearing ones that dont need oil?
Looks very pretty lol.
Its a double ceramic ball bearing thing. It needs oil still, no water. Billet compressor wheel and a modernised "CEA" turbine wheel. There is a 4wd EVO in the US running this type of turbo going low 9's at 166mph. Plenty of SFWD honda's putting in mid 9's. Some guys have recorded over 900hp on them, which might be a bit ott but they're good for 850hp and 45psi of boost :)
Hahaha i NEED 1 of them in mine!
TNT ANDY
12-01-2012, 18:19
Make sure you've got a good air tight boost run Mr S:wasntme:
looks pritty when is it time for gas lol
allanr5gtt
13-01-2012, 00:14
looks pritty when is it time for gas lol
:laugh:
p30esteves
08-08-2012, 22:46
Do you have any news with new Turbo set up?
Hi pedro, not yet sorry, work has been very busy this year and the car hasn't moved since october. But I've been collecting parts all year, the engine bits are sat there and ready to go. I have a new cage on the way and hopefully I'll be able to order the dog gears I need over winter. The car is booked in for a re-spray inside and out next month with a new roof skin to get rid of the sunroof, then it's off for a full colour company wrap. It'll be out again next year. I can spend the quiet winter building and tuning the motor. I have a lot of ECU related tricks up my sleeve too and I'm really looking forward to some quick passes next year :)
p30esteves
10-08-2012, 00:19
We will wait and see the beast at Santa POD next year :)
Thanks, I've missed it a lot this year but it's helped me save money for the bits I need if I'm going to do the job properly :)
Great build, anything more on this or was it sold in the end? :confused::cool:
Great build, anything more on this or was it sold in the end? :confused::cool:
Getting there, this year has been a no hoper with the business but lots of things going on with it currently in preperation for next year. At this moment in time it's at john sleath race cars having the cage built. Next stop is paint. Hopefully back with me for late Jan ready for engine and box.
Regards sold, I've had it 15 years nearly, it won't be sold any time soon :)
I see Andrew Cooke is no longer an RTOC member. Did we lose him to that break-away group?
Looking forward to your next update Chris. :agree:
I'm liking the gearbox mod, have been toying with similar idea but possibly the VW/Audi DSG box. Flappy steering wheel paddles and/or straight gear level stick to manually up/down shift no clutch faster gear change blar blar, mainly cheaper option to a dog box if you like. Could be one for the drag strip or have you already looked into this and not worth the trouble?
Dogbox's ftw on 1/4mile!
http://youtu.be/6UPRjsl-QOI
Dogbox's ftw on 1/4mile!
http://youtu.be/6UPRjsl-QOI
That is one crazy car! Be awesome if that kit was in a mk1 :cool:
Dogbox's ftw on 1/4mile!
http://youtu.be/6UPRjsl-QOI
Thats the one :) I'm using the same SQS dog gears and gearbox, only mine is a 2wd case of course. He and a few other VAG guys in europe are having good results with SQS. My friend has the same gear set in his 9sec scirocco, he bought the sequential shifter, and accidentally shifted from 2nd to first on the strip forgetting he had to pull back to grab 3rd. Wasted the engine of course. I don't fancy that, I'll stick to H pattern. !
Penfold aka The Dealer
09-12-2012, 22:01
Thats the one :) I'm using the same SQS dog gears and gearbox, only mine is a 2wd case of course. He and a few other VAG guys in europe are having good results with SQS. My friend has the same gear set in his 9sec scirocco, he bought the sequential shifter, and accidentally shifted from 2nd to first on the strip forgetting he had to pull back to grab 3rd. Wasted the engine of course. I don't fancy that, I'll stick to H pattern. !
Ouch thats an expensive mistake...
ouch! Would be quite tough to get used to in all fairness and at those speeds it all happens rather quickly:eek:
I see Andrew Cooke is no longer an RTOC member. Did we lose him to that break-away group?
Looking forward to your next update Chris. :agree:
Breakaway group? Pm as not to clutter good thread
Breakaway group? Pm as not to clutter good thread
Is that a confectionary club ? Nah I think Andy just got bored. He used to pop up on Cliosport from time to time. Not so much anymore. :(
Confectionery group? You mean the Club? :wasntme:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dGu1D1u0Qg0/UEI9tmPHAVI/AAAAAAAAABs/qGjUGviKUak/s1600/2733320158_76acfecc1a.jpeg
Ok, thanks for clearing that up in regards to Andy. Disappointed not to have seen the conclusion of that little Twingo :)
Matt Cole
09-03-2014, 19:55
We could do with an update Scoff! ;)
We could do with an update Scoff! ;)
:D :agree:
Some progress at the start of the year lads. Most things mocked up with the old engine for now. New engine is based on 172 block still but with a worked 197 cylinder head.
New turbo is GTX4202, 8x 2000cc injectors, I made 2 new manifolds and a solid boost run. Gearbox is still based on VW 02M but with SQS dog gears and quaife ATB. 3x Bosch motorsport fuel pumps, twin -6 feeds, single 50mm wastegate. New ECU to support traction control, full throttle shifting, gear based boost, etc.
Still have front arches and bumper to modify/paint/fit. A colour wrap to go on, engine to build, harness to make, etc.
Hope to get mapping later in the year with a view to racing propper in 2015 again. Work has been very busy, averaging 6.5 days a week at the moment, which is good in most respects but doesn't leave me much time for my own. Enthusiasm is plentifull, hours in the day are not !!
I found time to get some flywheels designed for the new clutch. I made one for RS Tuning's high power megane project also. Clutch is a 3 plate Sachs RCS rated to 980lb/ft.
Cheers, Chris
That inlet manifold is genius! :cool:
I see the car now white. :D You might want some ear defenders if your exhaust is staying like that. :laugh:
Nad-5GTT
13-03-2014, 16:25
Amazing work :cool:
Good to see some long awaited updates mate!
I understand it's not fun to don't have spare time for yourself but as you say it's good for the business which is nice too!
Fab work looks proper sexy again! Are the wastegate tubes seperated internally up until the gate?
Time for catcams valvetrain? :D
Edit: i see you put some k20 coils in, going to run them on the new build? I'm having some problems with mine when heatsoaked, think 2 of the coils are ****ed. Strange thing is i have 4 spare from the k20 engine i've put into the 5 and they all have the same problem :crap:
Love every part of your car chris! amazing cannot wait to see this out! :D
What sorta boost do you plan to run with this new setup? :eek:
Matt Cole
14-03-2014, 12:27
Awesome as usual Scoff. Shame you dont have much time.:(
I'll go with K20 coils arthur, they seem pretty good in the Hondas. I think the trick is to use OEM, the chinese copies are very poor.
No catcams valvetrain here, I havn't seen enough testing, although I had a good look at the one Paul's installed in his motor and it looks like some nice kit.
The current worry is oil pump chain, they can break at high RPM.
Ashy dunno,I'll play that by ear mate, just whatever it seems happy with. :)
truly superb work as ever chap, sniffing for the 9's per chance this go ;)
truly superb work as ever chap, sniffing for the 9's per chance this go ;)
Sniffing for 8's, but I'll settle for mid 9's to begin with :) I mean if I can do 10.1 with a standard gearbox and a small turbo then with another 100hp, traction control, bigger tyres, no synchromesh to slow me down then there will be something severely wrong if it doesn't go 9s pretty much straight away. I've specced everything for a lot more than I need really, so that should mean I have no trouble turning the power up as and when I think the chassis is ready for it.
smithyr5gt
14-03-2014, 16:51
nice work! cant wait to see this in action!!!
Sniffing for 8's, but I'll settle for mid 9's to begin with :) I mean if I can do 10.1 with a standard gearbox and a small turbo then with another 100hp, traction control, bigger tyres, no synchromesh to slow me down then there will be something severely wrong if it doesn't go 9s pretty much straight away. I've specced everything for a lot more than I need really, so that should mean I have no trouble turning the power up as and when I think the chassis is ready for it.
8's.................:eek: feck! Awesome work as always:agree:
Will you be using a parachute to slow down quickly enough before the run off finishes....:laugh:
Better invest in a neck brace, I'm imagining with the traction control you might need one:smokin:
this looks awesome chris, hopefully you can get very close to the afp subaru which at current wr is 8.2 @ 173 lol
that turbo is kin huge too:laugh::laugh::laugh:
keep up the awesome work sir:agree:
B18ftMOJO5
14-03-2014, 17:35
Your an inpiration to us all, couldnt ever imagine so many horses tamed under the hood of a 5:smokin: Great work and amazing engineering and fabrication work. Your a LEGEND sir..:agree:..look forward to hearing this monster roar down the drag strip.
In awe as ever ...that bay just looks 'right':smokin:
B18ftMOJO5
14-03-2014, 18:36
Out of curiosity is your car the equivilent in powerto weight to say the bugatti veyron?
Out of curiosity is your car the equivilent in powerto weight to say the bugatti veyron?
Give over, a Bugatti is 523bhp/tonne....
A gtt is 850kg.... You'd only need 450bhp to equal the power to weight of a Bugatti.
B18ftMOJO5
14-03-2014, 20:42
Twice the power to weight of a veyron....wow. now that would be a drag race id like to see.:coffee:
Twice the power to weight of a veyron....wow. now that would be a drag race id like to see.:coffee:
Ha! Would make the veyron look like a slug:laugh:
Then you got to like this:
http://youtu.be/v_9w5E3mtsM
Then you got to like this:
http://youtu.be/v_9w5E3mtsM
Thats a beast!
B18ftMOJO5
17-03-2014, 00:17
that's damn fast, I like mk2 golfs too...:)
this one is similar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxirlJk6oqI
anyway back to renaults......:laugh: whats the difference between the 197 and 172 heads scoff? what made you go with the gtx over the other units out there, and what rpm range are you hitting and the spool up on that size unit:eek:?
ps you know turbo ted will be after one soon;)
and i still reckon SQS sequential to go with that dog box;) or maybe ted might beat you to that one:p got to be worth half a second alone of your times:smokin:
Matt Cole
27-01-2019, 21:20
And in 2019, Scoffs R5 was just shy of 1000bhp!!:D
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1223475144483385&id=540197002811206
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