View Full Version : B18FT V F4R(T) Pound For Pound
Been thinking the last week and would like more power in the Clio 172, hopefully the next 3 months will have it looks wise all finished with bucket seats and cage. I've had the Clio over 2 years and quite like it so i'm thinking of taking it the next step but it's down to money.
I'm not spending money on cams and throttle bodies, i think turboing the F4R will be out of reach with the money so i'm thinking the Volvo turbo route. Sourcing a Volvo 440-480 engine and ancillaries, upgrade and go for 200ft/lbs.
So, adding parts to the list would it be cheaper to go Volvo 1.7 turbo or 172 turbo? I'm thinking it's less work getting an engine that's already built to run turbo than machine pistons, custom oil feed runs etc for the F4R.
Worth doing?
SCHWARTZ
13-09-2010, 17:07
you could run a small turbo at low pressure like 7psi on the 172 engine without changing pistons etc... i would have thought. someone like scoff would be good to speak to about that tho.
I had ktecs low pressure conversion and was pretty disappointed with it when it only made 206bhp, however there now making a reliable 230bhp and I personally don't see any reason why they couldn't run higher as the supercharged lads were putting out 250-260bhp on stock bottom ends
230bhp is a decent figure, I'd like that with a similar torque figure. What I had in mind would be to sell the whole F4R setup to part fund the Volvo conversion, the F4R engine would hopefully pay for a complete Volvo engine and hopefully more with it i.e ancillaries. Then upgrades like turbo, FMIC, Adaptronic, injectors.
There's probably more but You get the idea where I'm thinking of going
BluntyR5GTT
13-09-2010, 18:33
im not sure if your working to a tight budget and not sure if this conversion can be done but would a megane turbo engine be a better option good power straight from the off
Markey Mark (BD)
13-09-2010, 18:53
im not sure if your working to a tight budget and not sure if this conversion can be done but would a megane turbo engine be a better option good power straight from the off
Prob work out more money and work just to fit the engine in compared to the other 2.
Matt Ringworm tuning has one fitted to his 5.
im not sure if your working to a tight budget and not sure if this conversion can be done but would a megane turbo engine be a better option good power straight from the off
TBH I haven't thought of the Megane Turbo conversion. I thought of Volvo as it's been done a few times with success, it will drop into the Phase 1 Clio 172 without any problems. I should be able to source an engine for a reasonable price, then build the parts up over a period of time to complete the conversion
Andrew Cooke
13-09-2010, 19:01
I'd say turbo the F4R.
manifold is about a ton, turbo off a GTiR (you might need to get a smaller compressor housing fitted). Intercooler you need either way. Mapped at RS Tuning.
exactly as andy says buddy. I might even have my turbo manifold and 3" downpipe up for grabs within the next month. You'd need a GT series garrett on it though, or you could junk the downpipe and make your own to suite any turbo you like.
If you're prepared to strip the engine then I might even have some low CR 172 pistons you could have cheap.
What about the volvo T4 Engine (1948cc 16v with about 200hp) as it is a renault after all and it's already turboed.
Look at the Renault "N" engine...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Renault_engines
Some info on the Volvo engine.....
http://www.nuceng.ca/bill/volvo/database/engines.htm#B4194T
Just thought you could pic up a complete car cheap......
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=volvo+t4+&_sacat=0&_dmpt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&_odkw=volvo+t4+engine&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
Chris
Andrew Cooke
13-09-2010, 19:54
I'd say turbo the F4R.
manifold is about a ton, turbo off a GTiR (you might need to get a smaller compressor housing fitted). Intercooler you need either way. Mapped at RS Tuning.
and if you wanted to play with cams, advance the exhaust 2 deg, and retard the inlet 4 deg.
Bring on the Can-O-Worms :laugh:
Apparently it's been done in a mk 1 Clio but the lad who allegedly did it disappeared when I started asking loads of questions.
Apparently he fitted a jc5 box to the t4 engine but the starter motors are on the different sides of the block so not sure how he got round that one?
Andrew has the best idea on what to do. Grab a engine dynamics manifold of eBay £99, take one gt28r turbo from a 200sx/sunny gtir. You might have to take it in the ass and buy a downpipe from ktec. Nice size intercooler, universal Intercooler pipework kit and a 4 bar fuel pressure regulator. Start with that and you should see over 200 bhp easy. Then you can make small tweaks once you have a base starting point :)
Or just sell your F4R engine and gearbox and buy a 225 engine and gear box. Gaz2405 dropped it straight in his coupe and it lined up using oe Renault mounts. I honestly think it is possible. You will have to fabricate a lower rear engine mount, but it could be the quickest and cheapest route to 250 +
Andrew Cooke
13-09-2010, 20:12
take one gt28r turbo from a 200sx/sunny gtir
you'll do well to get a roller core one, and the 28R is too small. Main thing is to get the .86ar housing with the bigger turbine.
exactly as andy says buddy. I might even have my turbo manifold and 3" downpipe up for grabs within the next month. You'd need a GT series garrett on it though, or you could junk the downpipe and make your own to suite any turbo you like.
Must resist :D
I'd say turbo the F4R.
manifold is about a ton, turbo off a GTiR (you might need to get a smaller compressor housing fitted). Intercooler you need either way. Mapped at RS Tuning.
And this is with a stock bottom end, std headgasket in place Andy? There's obviously plenty of other little jobs i'd need to do, i'll have a browse in the F4R turbo section.
I'm not looking for mega bhp...... as long as the ft/lbs torque is over the 200 mark
I'll dig my old lpt graphs out and see what I can find on Cliosport. The lad who bought my old kit off me is having his mapped next week or the week after so I'll probably be able to get hold of his graphs as well. But I dont think I got over 200lb/ft.
For the record Im using a stock gasket at 340bhp and I think Scoff is as well at what ever crazy BHP he's at :D
Andrew just looking at your recomendations on cam timings and that would be a right ballaches to do. :sad2:
you'll do well to get a roller core one, and the 28R is too small. Main thing is to get the .86ar housing with the bigger turbine.
I think the .86 might be a bit to big/laggy mate and it's only really available on turbos which are way beyond (and quite expensive) what Ricardo is looking for.
That GT28R with the . 42 T3 comp housing that Ktec are selling has hit nearly 300bhp admittedly it's working hard and outside it efficiency but a GT28R with the .60 comp housing will flow 12 psi all the way to the red line easy on a clio and has good spool up as well.
Heres that graph, remember this was the first one done and there now getting an extra 25 bhp from the same set up. With a better intercooler than the £35 ebay special Ktec provide you should be able to get a little more.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/SP33DFOUR/File0002.jpg
Heres one showing the spool up it's just running the 7 psi T2 actuator. But it's hitting .5 bar at 3000rpm with a boost controller holding .5 bar through the rev range you can see it would esily make more.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj243/SP33DFOUR/File0001.jpg
I'l browse the RR graphs in a min, just getting back to the Volvo setup and the cost of conversions, like i said the Volvo is a turbo unit as a whole and as a conversion it's been done and reached respectable figures. If i were to look at 200ft/lbs that would be by end figure, i'm happy with that and wouldn't take it further.
So in my eyes this is why i thought Volvo would be a good choice, thinking of pennies and pounds.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VOLVO-480-TURBO-CATALIST-93-ENGINE-AND-GEARBOX-77-K-VGC-/270630781894?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f02da03c6
Andrew Cooke
13-09-2010, 23:47
I think the .86 might be a bit to big/laggy mate and it's only really available on turbos which are way beyond (and quite expensive) what Ricardo is looking for.
the .86 is standard on the GTiR I wouldn't fit anything smaller to a 172 engine. But then I'm not K-Tec.
I see what your saying Ricardo, looking at the cost of that engine it looks as though it will easily be the cheapest option. Especially if your only aiming for around 200bhp/ lb/ft. But the F4R will definatley have more potential as Scoff has proven.
Andrew I didn't realise gtir's came with a .86 back end, I joined a 200sx forum and they all seem to be going mad for the .64 and a few are pushing 400bhp with them with the 71mm comp wheel :eek:
...thinking of pennies and pounds...
In that case, bearing in mind you only want 200 'torques', why not simply slap in a C1J? You know them inside out, plenty available for peanuts, and look how easy/cheap we got 180/180 from your old 19.
*awaits c1j haters* :D
In that case, bearing in mind you only want 200 'torques', why not simply slap in a C1J? You know them inside out, plenty available for peanuts, and look how easy/cheap we got 180/180 from your old 19.
*awaits c1j haters* :D
Agree with Mart, there cheap as chips and cheap to repair if things go wrong and easy to get hold of. Along with you knowing the in's and out's of them. The only downside I can see to using the C1J is you are loosing the injection, where as the Volvo lump you will retain it but then personally I would look to do the f4rt into the clio and run on standard f4rt managment.
I have a good standard C1J lump if you fancy it:D
TrixNFlix
14-09-2010, 11:44
For your budget and reliable power requirements, b18ft for the win. ;). Problem is will you be happy with 200?
Andrew Cooke
14-09-2010, 13:13
Andrew I didn't realise gtir's came with a .86 back end, I joined a 200sx forum and they all seem to be going mad for the .64 and a few are pushing 400bhp with them with the 71mm comp wheel :eek:
200sx has much milder cams than a 172, it also runs low compression. You really don't want reversion with a 172 engine, it'll kill the power.
It'll spool just fine with 11:1 CR.
Been digging around and the .86 spools 300-400rpm later than the .64 so not so bad really.
A few of those guys reckon there running 272 cams? but as we've discussed in the past the advertised durations etc... aren't always true LOL
When you gonna squeeze a turbo on yours then Mr C?
Andrew Cooke
14-09-2010, 17:59
Been digging around and the .86 spools 300-400rpm later than the .64 so not so bad really.
A few of those guys reckon there running 272 cams? but as we've discussed in the past the advertised durations etc... aren't always true LOL
When you gonna squeeze a turbo on yours then Mr C?
Find out what the lift at TDC is for those cams, I'll bet it's less than the 172 cams. I measured some HKS 280s and they were less than the 172 cams.
I'm not going to turbo it :scared:
Rob@Backyardracing
14-09-2010, 18:14
i wouldnt look too much into what k-tech etc have made, as diff turbos/housings can make a big differance, not too mention the map itself, a lot of that extra 25hp they show could simply be them being more aggresive with igntion timing, dont believe the hype ;)
Yeah there was a thing on cliosport recently where they'd conveniently mispositioned the air temp probe off the dyno so there was a 23 degree difference between ambient and intake causing the dyno to over compensate by 5-6%.
The young lad involved though he'd gained almost 40bhp from the last map and was banging on about how much quicker it was when the reality is the boost controller had been set up so it spiked at 20psi (rather than the original 14psi) then it dropped of rapidly afterwards, but some people just won't listen and he was just glad he'd finally got over 300bhp but i'm not convinced he has :laugh:
For your budget and reliable power requirements, b18ft for the win. ;). Problem is will you be happy with 200?
I'd be happy with something around the 230 mark, being realistic i don't think it's worth taking the Clio (and FWD) over 250. Not getting the power down and spinning the wheels all the time! I guess at least with the Volvo it's EFI and can be mapped the get the best with the spec and then left alone
I honestly think you'll be surprised at how well a little clio puts the power down, I had little problem deploying all 341bhp of mine at Mallory in the p1ssing down rain :)
TrixNFlix
14-09-2010, 21:42
I'd be happy with something around the 230 mark, being realistic i don't think it's worth taking the Clio (and FWD) over 250. Not getting the power down and spinning the wheels all the time! I guess at least with the Volvo it's EFI and can be mapped the get the best with the spec and then left alone
If your thinking of going standalone with the Volvo then you may aswell stay with your original engine and turbo it.
I thought I'd need to go Adaptronic going Volvo
SCHWARTZ
14-09-2010, 22:12
nothing can be done to the volvo's ecu's except for the boost limit being removed, so it cant be maped as such. For the cost of stand alone management bigger turbo manifold/downpipe etc... plus the cost of the volvo engine its self, surley it would be around the same cost to turbo what you got.
nothing can be done to the volvo's ecu's except for the boost limit being removed, so it cant be maped as such. For the cost of stand alone management bigger turbo manifold/downpipe etc... plus the cost of the volvo engine its self, surley it would be around the same cost to turbo what you got.
I'm sure it will :) you need to keep that F4R in place, it's not as hard to turbo it as you think. No harder than making a volvo engine fit and run correctly.
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