View Full Version : Big brake conversion ... worth it ?
I have had the extenders sitting in my garage for ages now ... with mallory coming up i was wondering how much of a difference do they make over a standrad setup ??? Worth doing for mallory ??
dangerous dave
05-08-2010, 16:58
the cup boys will say the standard are well up to the job, there cheap to replace if you warp them etc..
good brake fluid etc should help..
with bigger brakes come bigger costs, i myself haven't needed bigger brakes so see no need... if you feel that yours can't cut it then do what you feels right, its your car:)
O.e sized discs with good pads are up to the job;)
thanks for the replies. I just use standard pads at moment and do get some fade occasionally ... was thinking mintex pads m1144 , or carbon lorraine .... anyone got experience with these ????
from what i have read on the search ... i should avoid the ebc greenstuff pads:eek:
Yep ferodo ds2500, mintex 1144 or carbon lorraine will do the job:agree:
I thought my big brake conversion was a massive improvement over standard set up but each to their own.
I thought my big brake conversion was a massive improvement over standard set up but each to their own.
me too :agree:
Alastair
05-08-2010, 20:29
me too :agree:
Are they the same ones i dropped off up at your house a few years ago, or am i mixing people up? :laugh: I'd forgotten about that trip up to Yorkshire!
For what it cost to upgrade, it made IMO the biggest difference. I ran the extenders, new pads and took it out on a Woodbridge trackday. They worked wonders with no fade, left braking later but harder and felt sooo good
£60 for R21 TXi discs, Carbon Lorraine pads and extenders would be awesome out on track
jesus in the seat of a 5
05-08-2010, 21:01
big brakes are for wimps, real drivers use oe....:p {well maybe poor folk..;)}
Are they the same ones i dropped off up at your house a few years ago, or am i mixing people up? :laugh: I'd forgotten about that trip up to Yorkshire!
Thats the ones marrow :) How could you forget about a trip of a lifetime, and it was Durham ;)
oe is more than up to the job,especially on track,compare the 5's to say mini sevens an miglias..ideal!!
:)
I thought my big brake conversion was a massive improvement over standard set up but each to their own.
Me too
car.crash
05-08-2010, 22:12
oe brakes are fine for oe tuned cars. 200 plus bhp on std setup :scared:
i dont use brakes anyways,the g/box slows me down!!
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
My cabby has big brakes on it with green stuffs and the other 5 gt is standard with mintex pads,
I was following the missis in the standard 5 last year at mallory (she was in the cab) and she hit the brakes just before jerrards and F£$K me did it stop quick. I nearly ploughed into the back of her. S*%t me right up that did. Left abit more room after that :D
I wouldn't go back to standard brakes now.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
My cabby has big brakes on it with green stuffs and the other 5 gt is standard with mintex pads,
I was following the missis in the standard 5 last year at mallory (she was in the cab) and she hit the brakes just before jerrards and F£$K me did it stop quick. I nearly ploughed into the back of her. S*%t me right up that did. Left abit more room after that :D
I wouldn't go back to standard brakes now.
Stupid computer swapped the profiles... :crap: That was me posting above.
Stupid computer swapped the profiles... :crap: That was me posting above.
of course it was....your just confused!..
:cooter::laugh:
of course it was....your just confused!..
:cooter::laugh:
Just a quick one. You have to run 15" wheels with big brakes!!
How's the mallary snack menu coming along Jay??? :)
Just a quick one. You have to run 15" wheels with big brakes!!
How's the mallary snack menu coming along Jay??? :)
well was thinkin of pizza...but now may go for the tortilla wraps...chicken,sour cream,rice,salsa,grated cheese....i got ideas!!
:D
With the right pads the standard sized discs are up to the job.
The big brake kit only uses the standard caliper/same area of pad for braking, its the material of the pads that makes the brakes crap or good;)
well was thinkin of pizza...but now may go for the tortilla wraps...chicken,sour cream,rice,salsa,grated cheese....i got ideas!!
:D
:popcorn:Looking forward to it :D
Hijack over :nohijack:
With the right pads the standard sized discs are up to the job.
The big brake kit only uses the standard caliper/same area of pad for braking, its the material of the pads that makes the brakes crap or good;)
Well i would say professor Brigsy that the bigger disk will dissipate? ( get rid of) the heat quicker as it has a bigger surface area, thus making the bigger brake more suited to the track action, as the fella was wondering in the first thread :D
obviously there is the theory of the roundabout and
where is the best an fastest way to slow it down,
and that would possibly be the outside....
big brakes do look kinda cool behind the 15's to..
:)
Agreed in theory they should be better nick, i have used both setups & seen no difference myself:crap:
All i know is the o.e discs worked just as well & cheaper
Agreed in theory they should be better nick, i have used both setups & seen no difference myself:crap:
All i know is the o.e discs worked just as well & cheaper
when i got used to them they seemed to deliver the same performance in braking if that makes sense.
gttjames
05-08-2010, 23:06
Thing is alot of people will moan and say there standard brake setup on a gt is crap - probably because the discs are worn/rusty, the pads are worn/glazed and the calipers are probably stiff as, and the brake fluid has never been changed.
I put new disc's and pads all round on mine and what a difference, when its back on the road il put some fresh standard fluid in it and maybe some braided hoses and im sure itl be even better and more than upto the job
Agreed in theory they should be better nick, i have used both setups & seen no difference myself:crap:
All i know is the o.e discs worked just as well & cheaper
:D
Even braided hoses are ment to give a better pedal. Not a fan though as you can't see the rubber hose condition underneath them.
Thundercat
05-08-2010, 23:18
Big disc work for me, R21 turbo discs and green stuff pads. But choice of wheels then restricted to 15inch +. MOT guy nearly jumped car out of rollers lol
Woznaldo
05-08-2010, 23:33
I wanted to give my big brake kit a try and make my own opinion but, I run phase 2 R19 16v wheels and the STD calipers won't clear the inside spokes. If I get some other wheels, I might give them a go.
Alastair
06-08-2010, 06:40
Even braided hoses are ment to give a better pedal. Not a fan though as you can't see the rubber hose condition underneath them.
LOL - I agree Nick and had flexi line failure at the Smetharpe Rally! Full tilt and brake failure was emotional! The poor brake feel i had been having for a while must have been down to damage, and hidden by the braid, but for the life of me i couldnt find it! Although I will still run them to protect from gravel damage :)...:laugh:
Agreed in theory they should be better nick, i have used both setups & seen no difference myself:crap:
All i know is the o.e discs worked just as well & cheaper
:agree:
I had the big brakes and after one very close incident where I had to SLAM on they were never the same again...
Alastair
06-08-2010, 08:45
Thats the ones marrow :) How could you forget about a trip of a lifetime, and it was Durham ;)
You'd have thought i would know that as i lived in Shincliffe for a year!:laugh:
Good road the A181 down into Durham off the A1, love the big drop where the dual carrigeway ends and the twistys start :smokin:
I use the KTR big brake disks with braided lines, new fluid (DOT 4), callipers and master cylinder etc. My brakes work very very well on track but I'd say the best thing would be to make sure all the system is working as it should and renew any parts suspect then buy some Ferodo DS2500 pads! ;)
Matt Cole
06-08-2010, 11:49
me too :agree:
Yip, standard set up in my opinion is gash
markey b
06-08-2010, 17:08
me too :agree:
me 3... i have one car running OE and another running hi-spec... there is a BIG difference in feel, fade etc
thats not to say that OE are no good though, even OE brakes are overengineered for the weight of the car!
SCHWARTZ
07-08-2010, 15:23
I was thinking of putting some bigger discs on mine as my car has sat for nearly a year and the discs are rusty and the pads wernt amazing to begin with, for pretty much the same price to have standard discs surley its better to get some bigger discs isnt it? Is there better discs than the r21 txi discs (for the money that is)? And do you have to get those extender brackets? is there not a way of using something like clio brake brackets etc...? I all ready have 15" wheels just bought some braided lines and will prob go for some ferodo ds2500 pads as well. sorry for the hijack.
I was thinking of putting some bigger discs on mine as my car has sat for nearly a year and the discs are rusty and the pads wernt amazing to begin with, for pretty much the same price to have standard discs surley its better to get some bigger discs isnt it? Is there better discs than the r21 txi discs (for the money that is)? And do you have to get those extender brackets? is there not a way of using something like clio brake brackets etc...? I all ready have 15" wheels just bought some braided lines and will prob go for some ferodo ds2500 pads as well. sorry for the hijack.
I swapped for the bigger brakes after a scary soft peddle at Rockingham on my second lap! I didn't change the pads or bleed the system before doing mallory last year and to me there was a big difference. However, just refreshing the system with new fluid this year and obviously bleeding has made a further decent improvement.
I dare to say the std setup is good enough, just depends on your driving style and how hard you are on your brakes.
Josie172cup
08-08-2010, 00:41
You'd have thought i would know that as i lived in Shincliffe for a year!:laugh:
Good road the A181 down into Durham off the A1, love the big drop where the dual carrigeway ends and the twistys start :smokin:
the a181 is from the a19 to durham and it is a nice little road, that used to be my daily drive for 4 years lol
Woznaldo
08-08-2010, 01:17
There are various arguments about bigger brakes but the basic considerations should be:
1. Is my std OE set up in A1 condition, i.e. good condition discs, new fluid and fully bled.
2. If all the criteria for 1 is met and you're still not happy, upgrade the pads with a decent brand and model i.e. Ferodo DS2500, Carbon Loraine, Mintex 1144.
3. If after 1 & 2 you're still not happy, maybe try a big disc conversion but, beware of the payoffs, i.e. the discs are a lot heavier (1-2kg per disc) which effects unsprung weight and thus handling, and if the brakes don't get up to temperature, they may be worse than OE, another trade off is the fact that R21 285mm discs are are different tophat height (offset) and will limit what wheels will give you enough clearance to run them.
4. If 1 & 2 are met and you don't want to go down option 3, then 4 pots are the next level but will have all the same limitations as option 3 other than wheel clearance. If you can find a thin 2 piece disc (285mm ish) and a light 4 pot caliper it may be possible to not put on too much extra weight but, it's probably a lot of effort for anything other than hardcore trackday/race use.
Anyone who strongly disagrees or would like to add anything, please do. I will also add that I have only run the OE set up with upgraded pads but, I have summarised what I have picked up from these boards and brakes in general on other cars.
Alastair
08-08-2010, 08:55
There are various arguments about bigger brakes but the basic considerations should be:
1. Is my std OE set up in A1 condition, i.e. good condition discs, new fluid and fully bled.
2. If all the criteria for 1 is met and you're still not happy, upgrade the pads with a decent brand and model i.e. Ferodo DS2500, Carbon Loraine, Mintex 1144.
3. If after 1 & 2 you're still not happy, maybe try a big disc conversion but, beware of the payoffs, i.e. the discs are a lot heavier (1-2kg per disc) which effects unsprung weight and thus handling, and if the brakes don't get up to temperature, they may be worse than OE, another trade off is the fact that R21 285mm discs are are different tophat height (offset) and will limit what wheels will give you enough clearance to run them.
4. If 1 & 2 are met and you don't want to go down option 3, then 4 pots are the next level but will have all the same limitations as option 3 other than wheel clearance. If you can find a thin 2 piece disc (285mm ish) and a light 4 pot caliper it may be possible to not put on too much extra weight but, it's probably a lot of effort for anything other than hardcore trackday/race use.
Anyone who strongly disagrees or would like to add anything, please do. I will also add that I have only run the OE set up with upgraded pads but, I have summarised what I have picked up from these boards and brakes in general on other cars.
Woz, good post. May I suggest:
1. Include condition of flexis and servo and servo vac line.
2. Carbon Lorraine - these pads squeal LOTS and drive you mad on a road car, but good stoppers.
4. Weights as follows that Chris Hebden and I have taken:
Std disk - 3.8 kg
285 (K-tec) disk - 6.3 kg
Hi Spec 285 (non alloy bell) - 5.7 kgs
Std Caliper 3.9 kgs
Hi spec 4 pot 1.7 kgs.
SCHWARTZ
08-08-2010, 10:19
I took the brakes apart cleaned them up and coppersliped them bled the system etc... before the car was taken off the road to get it through its mot and i still had a soft pedal, suspected knackered hoses. I have bought some braided brake lines now and will strip the brakes down again and re-grease them, But as the car has sat for a while now the discs have rusted and the pads are most probably brittle. I will be getting some ferodo ds2500 pads but its just the discs im stuck on:rolleyes: IMO the trade off for the little extra weight and the extra leverage the calliper will have on the disc would improve braking but i dont want to buy the discs and extenders and be proved wrong.
Woznaldo
08-08-2010, 12:31
May I suggest:
1. Include condition of flexis and servo and servo vac line.
2. Carbon Lorraine - these pads squeal LOTS and drive you mad on a road car, but good stoppers.
4. Weights as follows that Chris Hebden and I have taken:
Std disk - 3.8 kg
285 (K-tec) disk - 6.3 kg
Hi Spec 285 (non alloy bell) - 5.7 kgs
Std Caliper 3.9 kgs
Hi spec 4 pot 1.7 kgs.
All good points Alastair, especially the flexis. I have braided flexis all round and they definitely remove sponginess and make the pedal feel firmer.
I'm looking at some alloy sliding single pot calipers fitted to the Holden Commodore VL Turbo (also used on early Corvettes), that are finned, to use with my big disc kit in an attempt to keep the weight down. The upside is that they are readily available for A$50 a pair, the downside is that they have a different brake pipe fitting, so I'd have to change my front flexis or make an adaptor.
i l k e r
08-08-2010, 16:42
o.e setup is good when working properly, even on the R11T which is some 50kgs heavier than the 5gtt.
It really does a good job of stopping you even though it doesn't feel like you will be able to :scared:
Here's what I've been working on recently:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=394&pictureid=12387
Woznaldo
08-08-2010, 22:25
How much do those 4 pots weigh? If they're anything like my WRX calipers they'll weigh a ton (over 5 kg anyway)
Standard discs & a decent set of pads is all that's required, even for a track GTT running slicks - I speak (type) from experience in this field of practice :D
i l k e r
09-08-2010, 06:52
How much do those 4 pots weigh? If they're anything like my WRX calipers they'll weigh a ton (over 5 kg anyway)
hi Woz,
they're about half the weight of the o.e calipers :smokin:
I'll weigh them properly when I can :agree:
SCHWARTZ
09-08-2010, 19:26
Standard discs & a decent set of pads is all that's required, even for a track GTT running slicks - I speak (type) from experience in this field of practice :D
is this affected by running 15" wheels?
SCHWARTZ
09-08-2010, 22:21
has anyone used those big brake kits on ebay by crn products if so what were they like?http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-5-GT-TURBO-BIG-BRAKE-CONVERSION-DISCS-FRONT-RE-/360183233347?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item53dc97fb43#ht_3535wt_911
Woznaldo
09-08-2010, 22:24
hi Woz,
they're about half the weight of the o.e calipers :smokin:
I'll weigh them properly when I can :agree:
Obviously Mazda calipers but from what model?
is this affected by running 15" wheels?Standard 13" Speedlines with the standard Michelin tyres are only 10mm lower than the 15" Clio Speedlines with 195 45 tyres at the front and only 5mm lower at the rear, as the front squashes proportionally more with the original 'balloon' tyres.
1/2 Total height of wheel = 7.5 inches = 190mm. Tyre I have to guess at about an extra 90mm.
So half height is 280mm.
so the extra 10mm is 1/28 more leverage on the brake or 3.5%.
SCHWARTZ
09-08-2010, 23:19
Standard 13" Speedlines with the standard Michelin tyres are only 10mm lower than the 15" Clio Speedlines with 195 45 tyres at the front and only 5mm lower at the rear, as the front squashes proportionally more with the original 'balloon' tyres.
1/2 Total height of wheel = 7.5 inches = 190mm. Tyre I have to guess at about an extra 90mm.
So half height is 280mm.
so the extra 10mm is 1/28 more leverage on the brake or 3.5%.
so no more real noticeable force exerted on the brakes with larger wheels as the tyres make up for it. but surley the extra 25mm radius the larger discs have would out weigh that tenfold?:scratch:
i l k e r
10-08-2010, 07:35
Obviously Mazda calipers but from what model?
early RX7 aka FC3S
does anyone know where I can get the bolts from for this kit?
Woznaldo
10-08-2010, 22:20
I can't remember the thread size but, most hardware stores should be able to help you out. Just make sure that they are high tensile 12.9.
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