Charge Cooler Pre-rads

[Coops]

what do people run for a pre rad? i currently have just the pace one that comes with the chargecooler kit, which i am now learning is.....erm how shall i put this delicately......****e?:laugh:

any advice, info etc much appreciated

thanks

Ben

[r5 rich]

bin the pace set up pwr all the way. I had a pace on my old 5 and we didn`t even notice that it wasn`t running until mark noticed that a terminal cable had snapped and when it was reattach it look like it was trickling very very slowly!

[Coops]

bin the pace set up pwr all the way. I had a pace on my old 5 and we didn`t even notice that it wasn`t running until mark noticed that a terminal cable had snapped and when it was reattach it look like it was trickling very very slowly!

more info mate? where from, how much, is it just using a stronger pump to get a better flow?

cheers!

[Bigfoot]

http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php

[rs250nut]

You can get the pwr charge coolers imported from the states for a decent price.
AVT sell these in the U.k though.

http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=67

Doh.... Beat me to it

[Coops]

bugger that, thats silly money:laugh:

i'm gonna try out a better pump and rad for the current system tho i think, try to get one of those bosch pumps or similar second hand and get a motorbike rad

is the main issue with the pace systems the water cooling side, as in if i run a decent cooling circuit the chargecooler unit itself will be reet:agree:

cheers for the pointers so far lads, much appreciated :smokin:

[rs250nut]

bugger that, thats silly money:laugh:

i'm gonna try out a better pump and rad for the current system tho i think, try to get one of those bosch pumps or similar second hand and get a motorbike rad

is the main issue with the pace systems the water cooling side, as in if i run a decent cooling circuit the chargecooler unit itself will be reet:agree:

cheers for the pointers so far lads, much appreciated :smokin:

Get shot of it all and fit an intercooler:agree:

[Slim]

get a nice bosch pump..(i replaced mine.. much better now) .. i have both intercooler and charcooler :cooter:

[Coops]

unless i can manage to squeeze a front mount i/c behind the bumper and hide it properly with no chopping/modification so the car looks o/e still i'm not interested, i prefer the none turbo look from the outside, more of a suprise for others then when it goes;) so if i can get the chargecooler setup as is to be more effiencent thats what i'll do!

[Bigfoot]

Might be worth having a read on this thread

http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=16713

[Woznaldo]

These might also be worth a look. A lot cheaper than the PWR and they seem very capable with low pressure drop a safe to 70psi.

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=1034&osCsid=7bd5c9bcce7874ae5fb987705af6710f

[HAndy]

coops ,keep with the pace unit and change to as bigger pre rad you can fit behind grill, and fit a larger header tank, and wbosch water pump and all will be good:)

pwr is a nice item but would be hard to fit in a f7p engine bay and is it worth all the extra expense :(

[Duncan Grier]

Plenty of decent companies who can make you a decent rad at a good price and bosch pumps are not expensive - had problems in the past with EWP ones sticking :(

Ah Fabrications are very good and used a lot in the past

I would expect to pay £50 for pump - £100 for rad - £30-50 hoses & clips etc + core that you already have - can give you the part number for the CC pump if it helps?

DG

[Logg]

I would expect to pay £50 for pump

DG

Bugger wish I knew that I bought the bosch pump AVT sell @£100 :cry:

[Duncan Grier]

Bugger wish I knew that I bought the bosch pump AVT sell @£100 :cry:

Logg you fool, should of aasked me!!!! By the way not forgot about that header tank for you and it's in front of me now going in the 3pm post :)

I bet it's the same pump I get aswell :( in fact I am sure the last one I got super trade was less than £50 inc P&P

Maybe I should make a batch of super R5 cc kits up? - previously did that with the vag setup but have learned a bit more since and could improve still but that retained the pace dimensions of core but with a decent core and then better pre rads and pump. Also done some testing around flow rate of pumps through core and pre rads and found some interesting results :)

DG

[Logg]

Logg you fool, should of aasked me!!!! By the way not forgot about that header tank for you and it's in front of me now going in the 3pm post :)

I bet it's the same pump I get aswell :( in fact I am sure the last one I got super trade was less than £50 inc P&P

Maybe I should make a batch of super R5 cc kits up? - previously did that with the vag setup but have learned a bit more since and could improve still but that retained the pace dimensions of core but with a decent core and then better pre rads and pump. Also done some testing around flow rate of pumps through core and pre rads and found some interesting results :)

DG
Wow you got propper into it. I've given up testing my kit a bit at the mo due to needing to pull the rad away from the pre rad as they're touching and that can't be good for temps.

[Duncan Grier]

Most of the work done on the vx220 turbo and of course having a rad that is bolted to the radiator is def not the best but ways to improve overal

1. remove and direct contact betwwen the metals - I use small spacers on the mounting points.
2. seal the gap between the rad and pre rad (more to do with vx setup as the pre rad is the same size as radiator) also use a foam that does not transfer heat
3. Where possible use cowling / ducting to force air through the pre rad and radiator
4. For the radiator (again vx) used a larger surface area rad but thinner core - to also not effect the performance of the coolant rad - secondry air flow is also a consideration as once it has passed the 1st core it will have slowed down and lost a few degrees and can have a great effect on coolant temps (track work).
5. heat insualate any part of the system that does not serve a function for extracting / cooling - I insulate the water pipes and cover the header tank etc (again vx) but if your header tank is next to a hot heat source it can be worth looking at for the small cost / effort to complete


You cannot get away from the core heat transfer but in testing not really an issue when driving and heat soak def takes longer than the i/c option but of course once really hot will take a bit longer to cool than the i/c option. I found doing the extra bits over the oe original kit available saved me 3deg on average. I continued to do some data logging and simulator work on air flow high/low pressure etc of the vx front end and found there was some improvements to be had - summary below ref to oe std radiator intake (box shape) to adding a smoothed section and then bonnet spoiler where the air gets drawn out.

In live racing conditions this reduced coolant temps by 7deg alone which was impressive for a very small spoiler lip that cost about £10



Flow rate [kg/s]
Change [%]
Baseline


4.42

0.00%
Smooth duct


4.46

0.92%
Splitter


4.16

-5.83%
bonnet spoiler


5.44

23.21%
bonnet hump


4.83

9.40%


Got loads of boring graphs showing air flow and pressure rates, tests completed and life in general crap if your interested :coffee:

DG

[Coops]

Duncan, thats some excellent information cheers fella

basically i would need a prerad that i can squeeze infront of the clio normal radiator of similar dimensions and then one of these pumps that you reckon you can get for £50 quid? as said best i can find are the bosch 1200l/hr pumps from PWR/AVT which are nigh on 100 quid.

if i proffer you dimensions for a bigger pre rad to fit in the space i have, could you price one up for me through any company you can recommend? and similarly spec me a pump price. i currently use the standard pace fitment hoses, although i have replaced it all with same diameter braided pipework, would this all be useable on new rad/pump? so just swap the pre rad and the pump, keep pipework and header tank/pace core all the same?

cheers again

Ben

[Duncan Grier]

Bugger pasting table in never worked lol

Flow rate summary
Flow rate [kg/s] | Change [%]
Baseline 4.42 | 0%
Smooth duct 4.46 | 0.92%
Splitter 4.16 | -5.83%
Bonnet Spoiler 5.44 | 23.21%
Bonnet hump 4.83 | 9.40%

[Logg]

Good info fella. :agree:

[Duncan Grier]

Duncan, thats some excellent information cheers fella

basically i would need a prerad that i can squeeze infront of the clio normal radiator of similar dimensions and then one of these pumps that you reckon you can get for £50 quid? as said best i can find are the bosch 1200l/hr pumps from PWR/AVT which are nigh on 100 quid.

if i proffer you dimensions for a bigger pre rad to fit in the space i have, could you price one up for me through any company you can recommend? and similarly spec me a pump price. i currently use the standard pace fitment hoses, although i have replaced it all with same diameter braided pipework, would this all be useable on new rad/pump? so just swap the pre rad and the pump, keep pipework and header tank/pace core all the same?

cheers again

Ben

Ben you have a few options but easiest and cheapest is to us a decent larger pre rad / pump and larger header tank - I think this will be more than upto the job and not break the bank

You can go down the route of spending some time working out a more indepth solutution but would be really looking at use and temps of the easier / cheaper route - if it's not broke - leave it ;) unless you can't help yourself like me :D

I could make the rads myself but its the time available...or complete lack of it tbh. So flat out busy with the vx stuff and few developments that I would struggle to do anything in a short time frame.

If you get me a drawing of what you want will see if I can get you a price;

pipe size
any mounting points
depth / width etc

DG

[Coops]

I dont want to replace everything mate, as you mention the core itself is probably okay. the head tank probably holds about half a litre, so will be okay for now. main thing is to get a big rad and a decent pump on there!

i dont have an immediate rush, although the national day at mallory is looming up in august, but even if i can just sort a pump by then it will be better than nothing!

i'll do some measuring over next few days and let you know mate, really appreciate this as an offer and tbh if its for the right price and right knowledge i'm more than willing to wait mate

thanks again

Ben:cool:

[Logg]

Cool from your List mate all I need is some Foam any suggestions of what to look for?

[Duncan Grier]

No problem ;)

Well should be at ND anyway so say hello

Most who know me well know how anal I am about tyre pressures and temps lol although time spent with Obi one scoff over the years has taught me to not worry so much and more to the point not buy into all the super promised results from products out there. Tend to want proof / do things my self now and shock horror works and saves about 75% of costs :P

Don't overlook having enough fluid in the system also - can help reduce how quick it gets hot

Logg - non pourous / heat resistant foam - remember it does not need to be flame proof or exceed 110deg in fact you could use silicon (tested some noormal stuff and was fine - foam was a more oe / proffesional finish :D - may have some left in the garage but will not know until weekend

PMT ;)

[Coops]

ai, i'm persoanlly all for that philosophy, rebuilt my engine on the drive and spec everything myself, dont use 'tuning' companys as such, never have, as you say often get charged a fortune for very little knowledge and having to go back over and sort issues.

anyway, half the fun is doing it yourself, its part of the reason for having the car as a hobby, play with stuff to get it working spot on!:cool:

i'll see you at ND then fella, chew the cud about cooling options, in the mean time i'll grab the tape measure and get busy with MS paint :laugh:

Ben

[Mart]

A high (fast) flowing pump isn't ideal to have in a CC setup - The water will pass the exchanger too quick & won't transfer heat as efficiently. Of course, too slow a flow won't help matters either, so it's a bit of a fine line.

As sh1t as the rest of their kit was/is, I found the Pace pump worked well with the PWR cooler on my old Raider. I ran 2 pre-rad's in series, which not only helped reduce the water temp' more efficiently per se, but also by naturally increasing the volume of the water circuit.

As Duncan said, forcing the air through the pre-rad(s) is a must, just like Louie did with the o.e coolant circuit radiator. Once again, Renault had it right from the start :)

Also worth pointing out, that it's a good idea to check the turbo outlet temperature - Even the most efficient inter/charge-cooler in the world would have trouble dropping act's sufficiently enough if the turbo's boosting outside of its comfort zone.

[Coops]

really hope the turbo isnt out of capacity, only pushing 17psi max through a GT28RS with oil and water cooling both plumbed in!

the pace pump lets little more than a trickle round the circuit if i'm honest, its not great. i can see that too faster pump would be bad as well however, so i'm hoping the one duncan recommends will be spot on!

either way once the inlet temp sensor is wired in i will be able to see the best combination of parts!

[Mart]

Should be fine at the level of boost.

Don't recall a trickle of water being present when I was running a Pace pump - Was a sufficient enough flow to transfer the heat off the exchanger, or at least that's what the temp' meter was telling me when compared to when the Bosch pump was in situ.

Definitely sure that there's no air-locks present?

[Duncan Grier]

As per Mart's comments too fast is bad and too slow is bad - I have found the bosch one I use to be spot on but it def does not spray the stuff at a silly rate and more a steady fat flow of water. Having air in the system will slow the pump and weffect it's performance

[Coops]

nah its all beld fully, its just quite a slow flow i would say, i dont really have anything to compare too, but i would of thought an upgrade may be required. i am of course open to any options to keep costs down, so i may just plumb in the inlet temp sensor, check the system over, change the pre rad and see how it goes. then i can work from there if it still isnt up to scratch

cheers again lads, all good input, much appreciated!:)

[Mart]

i am of course open to any options to keep costs down

Fit an fmic instead.

[rs250nut]

I have seen fmic's fitted behind standard 16v/ willy bumpers without to much trouble, will work just as good as your cc if not better. If your that worried about it looking o.e paint it satin black or have it anodized.

[Alastair]

Fit an fmic instead.

I've been looking into an FMIC, purely to save weight. I run a Pace CC core and pump with 2 pre-rads in series and have not had any problems with a T28 at 22+psi, although i could do with wiring up an ACT gauge again as i have changed a few bits.

I looked at Bher (spelling?) intercoolers and there are dozens of OE options on ebay and the like at very cheap prices, they would take a tweak or two to fit though and are not blinging aluminium like forge / pro-alloy etc... Ive also got a cozzy 4x4 intercooler in the garage but it is very thick and not that large in terms of front area, i might look into welding two together?

[Coops]

another issue with FMIC is boost pipework routing in the clio bay with the f7p, very little space! basically everytime i've seen it done you look at the front of the car and go 'ooooo turboed'

i will sort the chargecooler circuit out, if that doesnt work then i may have to go FMIC but thats a total last resort :cool: