View Full Version : Charge temps?
Since theres been a nice new set of Ian S gagues sent out I was just wondering what sort of temps people are getting?
I've been getting up to 105 from my grill mounted frontra intercooler @20psi. :cry: It would sit at anything from 28-34 with normal driving all temps of a night time. :eek:
So thants off the car and the pwr cooler is going on in the next few days.
My dads running a pwr chargecooler on his turbo 2 and at 21psi he was getting 27-28 at wot the other day:cool:
I'm also running a pwr set up but need a final map first to see what temps I get
I use 1 of ian's charge temp gauges and have been using my 5 for most the week, driving round I get 24-28'c but when on full boost I hit temps of 30-38'c at 21 psi with a charge cooler set up
minty
dangerous dave
07-07-2010, 22:04
my ian s gauge is on my heap of tuning goodies thats nowhere near my 5:crap: i'll be a long while till i can join in the fun.. mines the radtec set up and fingers crossed with some better flow to it i should see some good temps:coffee::D
Logg, with my old set up in that car I had 31c on boost @ 24psi mani with my Ian S.... decent cooler & set up needed ..... oh & sell me my car back please..... :cry:
mmmmmm Well I've changed to a pwr cooler tonight. Thanks Turbo Ted & Marc and am still getting the same readings. :'( if anything its worse than before.
Think I'll be checking me earths tomorrow and making some cowling.
Just sell me the car back, end of problems.... :cooter:
Logg, with my old set up in that car I had 31c on boost @ 24psi mani with my Ian S.... decent cooler & set up needed ..... oh & sell me my car back please..... :cry:
lol She'll probably feel like a completly different car now.
whats these ian s gauges? are they the best bet for checking inlet temps?
how are they plumbed in?
cheers
Ben
car.crash
08-07-2010, 10:37
whats these ian s gauges? are they the best bet for checking inlet temps?
how are they plumbed in?
cheers
Ben
Have a look in the group buy section and it will be near the top about them :)
When I had my 5 going, with the standard sized intercooler, the temps would often top out at around 50°C or 60°C at WOT. Even with going right through the gears.
But sometimes, it'd top out at 89°C if the engine, cooler, pipes, engine bay, coolant water, etc was hot after a run and then I driven a bit slower then given it WOT again for a while.
I had an oil temp gauge and it'd usually take a 15 to 20 min run before that showed 90°C, where is would stay.
Unless it was at 90°C then I booted it for a while when in mid summer it would reach 120°C.
I had a very big compressor. Perhaps different turbos make a very different amount of heat?
mmmmmm Well I've changed to a pwr cooler tonight. Thanks Turbo Ted & Marc and am still getting the same readings. :'( if anything its worse than before.
Think I'll be checking me earths tomorrow and making some cowling.I wonder if what happened there is that the PWR flows a lot better so is passing the heat onto the inlet, but neither can cool well as the air flow through them is impeded in some way or is bypassing around the sides of the cooler?
Andrew Cooke
08-07-2010, 13:03
I wonder if what happened there is that the PWR flows a lot better so is passing the heat onto the inlet, but neither can cool well as the air flow through them is impeded in some way or is bypassing around the sides of the cooler?
or the pwr is full of air :confused:
need 2 sensors really, one for inlet temps and one for water temps in the chargecooler system! lol!
in fact, i'm going to pm Ian again! ;):laugh:
or the pwr is full of air :confused:
If cooling air from the front of the car can't get through the intercooler to the back of the intercooler then it won't cool.
If cooling air from the front of the car can't get through the intercooler to the back of the intercooler then it won't cool.
PWR is a charge cooler so its water cooled so no need for air apart from through the pre-rad
PWR is a charge coolerThanks for explaining that :)
Maybe the pre-rad isn't doing enough?
I've seen the Pace charge coolers lack of cooling. 94°C.
A guess might be that it flowed hot charge air well and the hot air air didn't stay in there long enough to lose much heat.
I've heard that the pre-rad can work best if it's butted right back against the main rad. Even more so if the edges are sealed around with some narrow silicone tube. I didn't try it. You have to test it and see for yourself.
My guess is that this is effective due to preventing cooling air from the front of the car from bypassing the pre-rad and going down behind it to the main rad.
Thanks for explaining that :)
Maybe the pre-rad isn't doing enough?
I've seen the Pace charge coolers lack of cooling. 94°C.
A guess might be that it flowed hot charge air well and the hot air air didn't stay in there long enough to lose much heat.
Thats down to how bad the pre-rad is on those, one of the first things I did is change the pre-rad, need to get the guage all plumbed in and see what its running like with the new pre-rad I put on the car :)
94°CThat's a sweeping statement really as my gauges are not absolutely accurate, as none are I expect.
The k-type specification is a bit out everywhere except 25°C. And the Analogue Devices thermocouple amplifier I use is only rated at ± 3%.
± a couple of °C either way of 94°C is more realistic, which is perfectly fine for this usage.
The pre rad is butted right up to the rad, I've made some cowling today so the air has no other route other than the rad, and scratched off even more paint off round where the earth is. We spent quite a bit of time getting all the air bubbles out out the charge cooler system.
Bigger pre rad is already on the list of bits to get. :cool:
Will go out and give it another go tonight and see what temps I get. :)
Could the silver box of tricks pick up interference from my rev limter as they are quite close? :confused:
Sorry to go off from the charge temps but sticking with the gauges.. My backing light has gone out on the temp sensor and egt sensor, is there a specific wire i should play about with to try and get these working again?
Could the silver box of tricks pick up interference from my rev limter as they are quite close? :confused:
Errm...I think the answer to that is no. But, I did have one case where there was some kind of breakthrough as the displayed temp went up by 1°C when the heater fan was switched on. That was an early version though and the later ones have a bit better power supply.
I presume you have Steve L's old blue one? On that one the metal box is isolated from the wiring by a thermal pad and bush kit. Necessary due the the regulator for the higher voltage for the blue light having a live tab as opposed to an earthed tab.
So the box will probably give some shielding. As for RFI being inducted into the wiring loom, that another matter and I don't have an anwser other than if it did, it probably would not raise the or lower temp. More likely to cause some flickering instability type variation.
Sorry to go off from the charge temps but sticking with the gauges.. My backing light has gone out on the temp sensor and egt sensor, is there a specific wire i should play about with to try and get these working again?Ah, so do you have Marts old dual then?
There is a thin black wire that Earths the two back lights. They both, and the display electronics, are supplied together through the red wire.
The thin black wire goes straight to earth in the black box.
Is this it:
Errm...I think the answer to that is no. But, I did have one case where there was some kind of breakthrough as the displayed temp went up by 1°C when the heater fan was switched on. That was an early version though and the later ones have a bit better power supply.
I presume you have Steve L's old blue one? On that one the metal box is isolated from the wiring by a thermal pad and bush kit. Necessary due the the regulator for the higher voltage for the blue light having a live tab as opposed to an earthed tab.
So the box will probably give some shielding. As for RFI being inducted into the wiring loom, that another matter and I don't have an anwser other than if it did, it probably would not raise the or lower temp. More likely to cause some flickering instability type variation.
Na I lent that to Turbo Ted before I finished my build last year. We did a deal he bought one of your latest batch for me. :) the black with red numbers. :D
+/- a few degrees is not a problem wondering how to solve the 100+ temps I've been seeing. Will have to look at air filter positioning then and finally Turbo issues maybe. :cry:
I did find last night that when driving flat out the cabin temp went up by 3 degrees and when I let off it dropped back to 22. :scratch:
I see :)
The new red and green ones had the old type regulators, but I still isolated the metal box with the pad and bush.
I think that might be a earth issue.
The way it works is that the cabin (chip) temp is output when the input wire from the thermocouple probe is shorted to earth.
When the button is pressed that's what happens. So any voltage supplied by the thermocouple then is also earthed.
But in the case of it rising a bit when there is a higher voltage input, ie, flooring it, I assume that there is a small amount of voltage not quite being earthed and that shows as that 3°C rise.
I think the (static) lower temp, 22°C, will be the chips temperature.
I testing I'm not sure now if I tried suddenly raising to 100°C and then dropping to room temp with the button was pressed. Just to something lower, and the temp remained stable.
Errm...I think the answer to that is no. But, I did have one case where there was some kind of breakthrough as the displayed temp went up by 1°C when the heater fan was switched on. That was an early version though and the later ones have a bit better power supply.
I presume you have Steve L's old blue one? On that one the metal box is isolated from the wiring by a thermal pad and bush kit. Necessary due the the regulator for the higher voltage for the blue light having a live tab as opposed to an earthed tab.
So the box will probably give some shielding. As for RFI being inducted into the wiring loom, that another matter and I don't have an anwser other than if it did, it probably would not raise the or lower temp. More likely to cause some flickering instability type variation.
ah thats the one il have a play when i get the 5 out next cheers
I see :)
The new red and green ones had the old type regulators, but I still isolated the metal box with the pad and bush.
I think that might be a earth issue.
The way it works is that the cabin (chip) temp is output when the input wire from the thermocouple probe is shorted to earth.
When the button is pressed that's what happens. So any voltage supplied by the thermocouple then is also earthed.
But in the case of it rising a bit when there is a higher voltage input, ie, flooring it, I assume that there is a small amount of voltage not quite being earthed and that shows as that 3°C rise.
I think the (static) lower temp, 22°C, will be the chips temperature.
I testing I'm not sure now if I tried suddenly raising to 100°C and then dropping to room temp with the button was pressed. Just to something lower, and the temp remained stable.
Cool I'll give the earth another going over. :)
Just been out for a blast and saw 90ish at the highest. so things are getting better! (as cabin temp is 34 rather than 22 from last night.) :agree: But then after that it wouldn't settle less than 40-50. :cry: but when I got home found that the charge cooler level had dropped a bit so after checking found a couple of weeps from conenctions so have tightened them up a bit more. :crap: and I guess the poor pace pre rad aint up to the job! :disagree::disagree:
are you using 19mm water hose through out the system?
this is the pre rad im useing
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/images/bigradwhite.jpg (http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=183)
Andrew Cooke
08-07-2010, 19:00
or the pwr is full of air :confused:
did you bleed it, or have you installed it in such a way that it self bleeds?
The pace pre rads are ****e dude, known fact.....
did you bleed it, or have you installed it in such a way that it self bleeds?
Yes but found loads of Air in the CC today and rad tried to get it all out. it seems better down to 70-80
Sorry to go off from the charge temps but sticking with the gauges.. My backing light has gone out on the temp sensor and egt sensor, is there a specific wire i should play about with to try and get these working again?
I had another thought. Has the brightness gone completely or is it just a lot lower?
You unit has a knob on the side that controls the brightness.
You could try giving that a turn if you haven't already.
I you have, try turning a few times and see if that helps. Sometimes dirt can accrue on the wiper / conductive strip and a few turns can clean it.
are you using 19mm water hose through out the system?
this is the pre rad im useing
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/images/bigradwhite.jpg (http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=183)
Right I've just measured the pipes to the cooler they are 23mm od but from the header tant to pump and then to the rad ar much much smaller! could this be blocking the flow?
Andrew Cooke
08-07-2010, 21:45
Yes but found loads of Air in the CC today and rad tried to get it all out. it seems better down to 70-80
you have 2 problems there:
the header tank is lower than the CC
the CC water exit is lower than the highest point where air can be trapped
I know not good but with the bits I got with the kit it looks like the pervous owner had a pace cc and thhen just swapped coolers. so its a bit of a mish mash of parts. :cry:
hopefully when the new hoses turn up I'll be able to put the cooler lower. between the head and rad maybe.
Just an idea,why don't you mount the header tank in the scuttle that would be the highest point(that's where mine is mounted)also it makes your pipe run longer so there's more water in the system.infact I ditched my little header tank for a bigger unit
Right I've just measured the pipes to the cooler they are 23mm od but from the header tant to pump and then to the rad ar much much smaller! could this be blocking the flow?
I would of thought so,prob best to keep the pipe 19mm I/d through out the system as your not creating a bottle neck effect
someone correct me if I'm wrong
Just an idea,why don't you mount the header tank in the scuttle that would be the highest point(that's where mine is mounted)also it makes your pipe run longer so there's more water in the system.infact I ditched my little header tank for a bigger unit
I was thinking about a bigger header thank but was told that the more water in the system the harder it'll be to cool it once it had warmed up. :scratch:
I would of thought so,prob best to keep the pipe 19mm I/d through out the system as your not creating a bottle neck effect
someone correct me if I'm wrong
Trouble is the header tank, pump and rad all have small ends on them. :cry:
I was thinking about a bigger header thank but was told that the more water in the system the harder it'll be to cool it once it had warmed up. :scratch:
Conversely, the more water, the higher the thermal mass and therefore thermal absorption and so the lower the charge temp will be when booting it from low speed around town or occasionally overtaking on country lanes / motorway or for a single run on the strip.
Even for track lapping, if there's enough time off full power it might cool well enough between uses. If there isn't, the overall effectiveness will be dependant of the pre-rad, etc, just the same as for a lower thermal mass cooler.
Horses for courses.
Of course, more mass = heavier car = going slower.
I did find last night that when driving flat out the cabin temp went up by 3 degrees and when I let off it dropped back to 22. :scratch:
I tested a unit last night.
The chip / ambient and a probe tip temperature were 27°C for either switch position.
I applied 300°C to the probe tip and switched to 'ambient', showed 27°C.
I 'let off' the heat and the 27°C didn't budge as the probe tip temp rapidly dropped.
Repeated the procedure a few times with the same result.
I tested a unit last night.
The chip / ambient and a probe tip temperature were 27°C for either switch position.
I applied 300°C to the probe tip and switched to 'ambient', showed 27°C.
I 'let off' the heat and the 27°C didn't budge as the probe tip temp rapidly dropped.
Repeated the procedure a few times with the same result.
Cool I just got back from testing myself the gauge now sits at cabin temp and would't move from 24 while driving hard. So thats my earth issues sorted. :) Thanks for the Help Ian. :agree::agree:
Inlet temp got to high 60's low 70's. So I guess that means next issues are with CC flow and rad size.
Conversely, the more water, the higher the thermal mass and therefore thermal absorption and so the lower the charge temp will be when booting it from low speed around town or occasionally overtaking on country lanes / motorway or for a single run on the strip.
Even for track lapping, if there's enough time off full power it might cool well enough between uses. If there isn't, the overall effectiveness will be dependant of the pre-rad, etc, just the same as for a lower thermal mass cooler.
Horses for courses.
Of course, more mass = heavier car = going slower.
Weight isn't really an issue with the amount of sound deadening in the car now. :ashamed: So more water the better then!
Are these PWR coolers any good? I mean when properly setup with a decent pre-rad, pump hose run etc
I presuming the core is more efficient than a Pace jobbie but from what I've read that isn't too hard...
Are these PWR coolers any good? I mean when properly setup with a decent pre-rad, pump hose run etc
I presuming the core is more efficient than a Pace jobbie but from what I've read that isn't too hard...
100s times better. The kit contains a lot better pump, bigger pipe diameter to flow more water at a faster rate. The core is a lot more effecient plus the a lot more choice on rads for fitment due to the pipe diameter can fit on, the pace rad is poor design and doesn't aid much to the cooling of the water
100s times better. The kit contains a lot better pump, bigger pipe diameter to flow more water at a faster rate. The core is a lot more effecient plus the a lot more choice on rads for fitment due to the pipe diameter can fit on, the pace rad is poor design and doesn't aid much to the cooling of the water
true but if you take into consideration that pre rad size and header tank size of the original pace kit , it was only ever going to be good for short bursts of power, and the fact that the inlet caused a bottle neck 50mm and outlet is 63mm (no wonder), bb designed it for short power runs, the core itself is not that bad 20mm gap between the 2 core units, ive kept with the pace item, although ive modified it a bit, matched inlet to outlet to 63mm and fabricated a new much larger pre rad (which is where most of the cooling takes place anyway) and fabricated a much bigger header tank, and can honestly say, ive never had any issues, plus you can pick up a second hand item for around the £100 mark (chargecooler unit only)which makes it good value for money ,and is easier to fit in a tight engine bay(not above engine for added heat soak)like the pwr item, pretty sure lotus fitted pace products as standard so cant be that bad:confused: just my 5p 's worth:D
forgot to add , that the o.e pump is :crap:(bosch 04 44 item ftw) but do you really need to increase the flow rate with bigger inlets/ outlets:scratch: would that not make it less effective at taking away the heat from the core :(
i think this is an area that needs more research, back to back tests:D
I believe mart done some testing with teh PWR chargecooler
Would you want a slow rate of water going round? You would be keeping a lot of heat in the water before it reaches the tank / pre-rad. Cant say I realised about the bottle neck in the pace CC. Im running one myself, but with a airtec rad for cooler, if it works for the cosworth boys with their turbos im sure its good enough for a CC plus ideal fit behind the bumper without having to cut any of it up :)
The pump used in the PWR is 0392022002. The higher the surface area the more heat can transfer into the water, colder water warms quicker than already hot water so would have thought pumper cooler water to take its place will mean the transfer of heat will be better. Whos good at science here :scared:
I believe mart done some testing with teh PWR chargecooler
Would you want a slow rate of water going round? You would be keeping a lot of heat in the water before it reaches the tank / pre-rad. Cant say I realised about the bottle neck in the pace CC. Im running one myself, but with a airtec rad for cooler, if it works for the cosworth boys with their turbos im sure its good enough for a CC plus ideal fit behind the bumper without having to cut any of it up :)
The pump used in the PWR is 0392022002. The higher the surface area the more heat can transfer into the water, colder water warms quicker than already hot water so would have thought pumper cooler water to take its place will mean the transfer of heat will be better. Whos good at science here :scared:
whoops my mistake the pump is 22002,must have got confused with the bosch pump:innocent::innocent:
how does the colder water warm quicker than hot water work , if you boil an already hot kettle , it gets to temp quicker than a cold kettle:scratch: and the surface area would depend on where your heat source is ;) im no expert , but i think we need more" proof of pudding" roland stlyleee:laugh::laugh::laugh:
It wont get to boiling temperature quicker :laugh: it will just raise the temperature quicker from where it is.
Cold water does not boil faster than hot water. The rate of heating of a liquid depends on the magnitude of the temperature difference between the liquid and its surroundings (the flame on the stove, for instance). As a result, cold water will be absorbing heat faster while it is still cold; once it gets up to the temperature of hot water, the heating rate slows down and from there it takes just as long to bring it to a boil as the water that was hot to begin with. Because it takes cold water some time to reach the temperature of hot water, cold water clearly takes longer to boil than hot water does. There may be some psychological effect at play; cold water starts boiling sooner than one might expect because of the aforementioned greater heat absorption rate when water is colder
Cold water does not boil faster than hot water. The rate of heating of a liquid depends on the magnitude of the temperature difference between the liquid and its surroundings (the flame on the stove, for instance). As a result, cold water will be absorbing heat faster while it is still cold; once it gets up to the temperature of hot water, the heating rate slows down and from there it takes just as long to bring it to a boil as the water that was hot to begin with. Because it takes cold water some time to reach the temperature of hot water, cold water clearly takes longer to boil than hot water does. There may be some psychological effect at play; cold water starts boiling sooner than one might expect because of the aforementioned greater heat absorption rate when water is colder
please dont think im trying to piss on your chips (so to speak) i'm not , just curious :agree::)i am but a simple wood butcher!!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
time for another ice cold beer:beer::D
please dont think im trying to piss on your chips (so to speak) i'm not , just curious :agree::)i am but a simple wood butcher!!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Thats ok mate :) I only like salt on my chips anyway. Any imput is great with CC seeming that im running one as well :) went pace route as its easier to fit in place in the engine bay, still running smaller pipe work but replaced the pre-rad as everyone says that its such a bad design. Looking at replacing the tank for a larger version and put it in place in the scuttle area, thats if I find some space. But first thing first is to fit Ian S charge temp guage to see what needs improving no point doing lots of work when its running cool enough as it is :)
Thats ok mate :) I only like salt on my chips anyway. Any imput is great with CC seeming that im running one as well :) went pace route as its easier to fit in place in the engine bay, still running smaller pipe work but replaced the pre-rad as everyone says that its such a bad design. Looking at replacing the tank for a larger version and put it in place in the scuttle area, thats if I find some space. But first thing first is to fit Ian S charge temp guage to see what needs improving no point doing lots of work when its running cool enough as it is :)
couldnt agree more:agree::D
Well thats my bigger pre rad lost on ebay. :cry: can be sutch a tightwad some times. was going to try and get a focus rs pre rad.
but good idea about those turbo coolers all the ford boys use dale. :agree:
Well thats my bigger pre rad lost on ebay. :cry: can be sutch a tightwad some times. was going to try and get a focus rs pre rad.
but good idea about those turbo coolers all the ford boys use dale. :agree:
Mine only set me back £100 I think it was, pipe size is ideal for the CC.
http://www.autospecialists.co.uk/Black-Pro-Series-AIRTEC-Cosworth-Turbo-cooler-with-50-mm-core-Product-751.html
Thats the one I got :agree:
http://www.autospecialists.co.uk/Black-Pro-Series-AIRTEC-Cosworth-Turbo-cooler-with-50-mm-core-Product-751.html
Thats the one I got :agree:
I was just looking at that page. :wasntme:
Just checked ebay for any cheapy ones but there's none. :sad2:
How big is the hose fitting my bigfooted friend? :confused:
That I cant remember, speak to that company, they were very helpful when I was after it, and they found out the measurements for me as I needed to make sure it fitted behind the bumper. Im sure the inlet and outlet are just a bit smaller than the diameter of the pace pump outlet, only by a couple of mm though.
mmmmmmm bugger I'm needing around 19mm as all the pace bits are smaller than the PWR cooler. mmmmm back to search.
Have you thought about looking at bike rads?
I have and have started to pester people on ebay. :)
Right I've been on a ebay mission have got a Fiat cinquecento rad, a new bosch pump and have some more pipe on the way. :)
While looking round the tinerweb I've found that I had the kit piped up the wrong way. :crap:
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16133&sid=c738624cf0fa33a9aa750138917b57f3&start=90
So have now piped it up with the water exiting the cc going to the rad-header tank-pump- back to the cc but things are are only slightly better. :cry:
But now I think the rad is airlocked. I was wondering is it ok the have the flow of water going in the bottom of the rad and then exiting the top so any air locks should go to the header tank. as at the mo it's top to bottom like a 5 rad.
Do you have any overall dimensions for the Fiat rad ?
I need something small for the GTA CC system
This is the one I bought has the size in the ad.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310224300684&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
but found this seller good as they list the sizes of all the rads they sell. so you find the size then just look for a cheaper one. :)
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/coolpartsuk/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340
:cool:
Thanks Logg , just bought , size is just about right :)
:cool:
Thanks Logg , just bought , size is just about right :)
It has 32mm oulets so you will need to reduce things to the 19mm of the pwr lines. hopes it works for both of us. but for £30 I thought it's worth a punt.
Right I've now dropped the boost to 12psi and the temps are only slightly better. Only low 60 degrees now but off boost is still the same low to mid 30's. With the temps being 35--38 at 40-60mph driving while off boost but low 30's at under 30mph. :scratch:.
The car feels like it's pulling all the way though the revs rather than dropping off at the top end like it did before at 20psi with 80-90 degree temps.
Would moving the air filter to behind the head light and trying to shield it from the heat of the engine bay make much difference?
If you were stationary, heat soak might show between 45 to 55°C at this time of year.
It would on mine.
Ambient currently might be, what 27°C?
Plus engine bay heat.
The main rad, at 90°C, may be warming up the charge cooler rad a bit at low speeds.
Your pipes and header tank and charge cooler and almost all the water is in the hot engine bay.
Your air filter is sucking in warm / hot air too? Just moving that so it draws ONLY front cool air might drop yours temps a few °C. Someone told me he got, IIRC, 6°C lower by doing that, but with an inter cooler.
If you want cooler temps, maybe a front mounted inter cooler is the way to go?
:eek:
Rad has just arrived :cool:
I've had a change of plan now though so size not so critical ,will mount it up front to get better airflow and more volume . Just need to get 8m of pipe now .
:eek:
Rad has just arrived :cool:
I've had a change of plan now though so size not so critical ,will mount it up front to get better airflow and more volume . Just need to get 8m of pipe now .
Was the same for me. Shame the rest of ebays sellers take so long. :cry:
If you were stationary, heat soak might show between 45 to 55°C at this time of year.
It would on mine.
Ambient currently might be, what 27°C?
Plus engine bay heat.
The main rad, at 90°C, may be warming up the charge cooler rad a bit at low speeds.
Your pipes and header tank and charge cooler and almost all the water is in the hot engine bay.
Your air filter is sucking in warm / hot air too? Just moving that so it draws ONLY front cool air might drop yours temps a few °C. Someone told me he got, IIRC, 6°C lower by doing that, but with an inter cooler.
If you want cooler temps, maybe a front mounted inter cooler is the way to go?
Well last night ambient was around 18-20 but I was getting 28-30 at idle, 30-33 at low speeds 30mph or lower, 33- 39 at any higher speeds with the faster I drove the higher the temp. all off boost.
I'll try moving the pre rad away from the rad.
Theres no gap for the air filter at the front due to the rad being bigger than stock and moved over from when I had the grill mounted cooler. once I have more chargecooler water pipe I'll move the rad back to stock position.
Well moving the pre rad and rad wasn't that simple, as I thought whats the point So moved the rad and fitted my new pre rad. will give it a test later on.
Tony Walker
16-07-2010, 20:24
The higher the temp difference between the charged air and cold water the more efficient it will cool. Thats why some drag cars use ice.
Well I'm still having major issues. And have changed so far.
Pace pre rad for a chinq rad.
Pace pump for a Bosch.
All the pipe work is now 19mm.
Header tank relocated to the scuttle area.
Rad ducting fitted.
Tomorrow all being well the car should be going on the rollers for a bit of check and test of bits n bobs. What do people think I should be checking?
My thoughts where that the act gauge is reading correct.
What the pre cooler temps are.
Check the timing.
If anyone else has any helpful ideas or things to check it would be appreciated.
Also thanks to everyone that's helped me so far. :agree:
Andrew Cooke
03-08-2010, 08:17
if you're at the Nat day with it and still have problems come and see me.
use your hand to feel which parts of the rad, CC, and pipes are hot and cold. Don't burn yourself...
if you're at the Nat day with it and still have problems come and see me.
use your hand to feel which parts of the rad, CC, and pipes are hot and cold. Don't burn yourself...
Thanks for the offer.
I'll try that tomorrow.
Rad ducting fitted.That's a lot of open space at the front of the car.
There should be zero open space.
Why is there all that open area where the fog lights go? By having that you're just about switching off your radiators.
Why should any air go through the high flow resistance heat exchangers when it can go through the zero resistance space around them.
It's maybe a mistake to place a normal main rad in front of another normal main rad. The resistance to air flow will be too high?
The manufactures designed those rads to work on their own, not obstructed by another one.
To get sufficient air flow through a double thickness, the vanes per inch would have to be less, maybe halved, ie, twice the gap between the vanes on both front and read rads.
Manufacturers will have formulas for this I expect.
Would it not have been more effective to place the charge cooler rad BESIDE the main rad? Like Renault did with the original inter cooler.
Also, is there a lot of heat soak into the new charge cooler rad a low speeds?
Why not just get a cheap universal fit inter cooler. We know they can work quite well. Even when just placed behind the grill.
Really don't think it's the cooling as I still am getting around the same act as my grill mounted intercooler and now belive there's an underlying problem with my engine set up.
The front bumper is what came on the car when I got it. Have a brand new oe grill and bumper to go on but just need too find a good painter. I did try to make some ducting for the bottom of the bumper but it would of looked gash so have left it till the new one gets fitted. maybe now this will get me off my fat arse o have it done. :)
The grill area is all blocked off apart from the rads. They are spaced about 1 inch apart with foam around the main rad so any air that goes through the first has no choice but to go through the second.
I've only felt any heat in the new rad after the car has been sat idleing for 10-15 mins. But will see what if feels like after a run on the rollers.
Thanks for your constructive comments. :agree:
Is it bad that I solve this issue rather than just moving on like I did from a grill mounted cooler.
Really don't think it's the cooling as I still am getting around the same act as my grill mounted intercooler and now belive there's an underlying problem with my engine set up.Was that intercooler used with all the open space? Now you've closed off much of that the new heat exchangers have an advantage.
The front bumper is what came on the car when I got it. Have a brand new oe grill and bumper to go on but just need too find a good painter. I did try to make some ducting for the bottom of the bumper but it would of looked gash so have left it till the new one gets fitted. maybe now this will get me off my fat arse o have it done. :)Possibly sticky tape on some thick cardboard to the front of the open area just to see if that helps? People have told me that running with all the OE cowling in, but grill out, and 'blocking' the leftwards hole with the OE intercooler, their OE water temp gauge showed lower. Especially when lapping a track.
The grill area is all blocked off apart from the rads. They are spaced about 1 inch apart with foam around the main rad so any air that goes through the first has no choice but to go through the second.The purpose of the seal is to stop air from going around and behind the front cooler, ie, the easiest path, not from leaking away from behind it.
I've only felt any heat in the new rad after the car has been sat idleing for 10-15 mins.Is that after the main rad is fully warmed up and at 90°C? Could some of that heat be taken away by the charge cooler circulating water and then given out to the passing air going through the charge cooler?
Is it bad that I solve this issue rather than just moving on like I did from a grill mounted cooler.I was thinking that if an an inter cooler wasn't working then that would tell you there are faults else where. Or it would work and that saves you further trouble. Is this charge cooler going to be better than an inter cooler in the end? One advantage is you can switch off the pump in winter and prevent carb freeze. Another is that you can use a slush cooler at the strip. But apart from that, for a front engined car, is it worth the cost and trouble?
I wonder if the turbo is way out of its efficiency thus blowing out extremely hot air, the cc setup may be working fine but unable to cool the charge air enough:coffee:
With my t28 ive seen a max of 92 deg with my intercooler setup at 22 psi @ manifold.
I know my actuator is set to 24psi & bleeding off some air off the line to make 22 at manifold, i estimate the boost level at the turbo with pressure drop through i/c, pipework, carb etc to be 30+ psi...
Surely the t3 cover/wheel is way out of its efficiency zone at these kind of boost levels.
Still mine hasnt blown up yet so im not worrying. Id imagine it would be hard work to get the act's down to decent levels though without major work.
8psi is a lot to be dropping. I recall Trevor telling me that with the GTTuning 130mm standard position inter cooler in series with the cyber cooler they lost 9psi.
But either on their own would be nearer half that.
car.crash
03-08-2010, 12:39
I have a t28 fitted with a forge universal front mount in the grill area with 20 psi. Normal driving returns 20- 30 degrees ie just above ambient. Flat out runs slowly creep to 40 at night and had a peak of 60 on a warm afternoon. My airfilter gets very hot so I shall be blanking off the area behind the headlight to save the large ally housing from heatsoak to try and reduce my temps a little but I'm fairly happy with my setup.
My old intercooler was the size of the oe grill. There was no where air to by pass it really.
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=421&pictureid=5994
I hated the pipe run and having to use 11 clamps. Also hate the look of intercoolers being on show.
I think I described my ducting wrong. I've got hard plastic either side of my first rad so air can not got round it and have also put insulated foam between the rads so any air that goes through the first rad can not bypass the 2nd.
I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and block the bottom of the bumper off. But isn't a fun job as who ever cut the bumper did a good cutting some crazy shapes. :wasntme:
I shouldn't think it's the turbo as running it at 12psi should of been well inside it's map but still got 60 degree temps. Unless I've got a health sized boost leek in the system.
What turbo are you using logg ??? Is it a full T25 or bigger ??? I think i was messing with my car next to yours at the pod ... i had the blue R5.
I am using a ian s gauage myslef but the first kind he made and my experinces have been that when i used to run a turbo dynamics md84 (t25 comp / t2 turbine enlarged i think ) through a pace intercooler i used to get peak charge temps of 90c on a really hot day and that was at 20psi at wot. When i backed off the gas they used to drop to about 40c.
My new setup is with a gt28r and and 0.49 turbine housing going through a pace chargecooler and the same pace intercooler. On the pod day the outside temps were very high ... maybe even 28c ... on my way home on that day i had a boost leak and couldnt get above 15psi boost ... my peak temps on way home were about 40c. I have found that using the chargecooler gives me a lot more stable charge temps.
I would imagine that the drop in my acts is due to both the chargecooler and also the bigger turbo.
I will take the pace intercooler out and just try it with the chargecooler on its own to see what happens to my charge temps .... when i get time that is. :)
Hello mate.
I run a 2wd cosworth T3 turbo in a escort rs turbo turbine housing. Maybe I need to go up a size in rear housing?
who says the pace chargecooler rad is bad? and why?
Update time.
Charge cooler has now gone, got fed up with not being able to get it to work and the mess of pipes from it. Cheap eBay intercooler fitted 550mmx225x63mm. ACT are now 4-6 degrees higher then ambient*while normal driving and 15 degrees higher while on boost (20psi) now have carb freeze issues. :cry: also my water and oil temps have dropped . I guess this is down to not having 40-90 ACT anymore.
Thanks everyone for your help and ideas.
Good info.
Does your car feel faster with the inter cooler and lower temps?
Though, the sudden drop in ambient that we're now having usually does make them faster, so that may blur the comparison.
TNT ANDY
21-10-2010, 21:40
http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page_3
As it's come up again. May help those seeking advice.
It feels much better feels like it's holding the power all the way through the revs were as it felt like the power use to tail off. The car made 155bhp at 13psi with the charge cooler 60degree act and afr of 10.3. Will wack the boost back down to 13psi when I go back to compare.
Told you CC were ****e on the GTT mate, I went through the same as you but with the pace kit.. but yeah carb freeze is now the issue you have to contend with, lol.
Maybe you could run the CC in-line to boost the temps :wasntme:
Glad you sorted it though
Told you CC were ****e on the GTT mate, I went through the same as you but with the pace kit.. but yeah carb freeze is now the issue you have to contend with, lol.
Maybe you could run the CC in-line to boost the temps :wasntme:
Glad you sorted it though
erm... no:sad2: you did'nt read the above posts then and this link http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page_3
Only thing I didn't try was to move the pre rad to the bottom of the bumper. But by then I was fed up.
I think the main issue was the core was rated to 280bhp. But on what size engine running what boost? More than likely not a 1.4 running 13-20psi. The intercooler I replaced it with is rated to 450bhp. But as normal they never say what engine size or what boost pressure was used. And would say is only just upto the job for my car.
Personally I think chargecoolers & intercoolers should have a temp loss rating not just a bhp flow rating.
TNT ANDY
22-10-2010, 19:31
Just a thought.
What factory performance car with the engine up front has a charge cooler? I don't think there are many. I have doubts over the 'claimed' benefits of charge cooling over intercooling. I suppose we will have see some hard facts before we can actually see what happens on the GTT.
BTW I have a pwr charge cooler.
Before the chargecooler I was seeing 115-130 degrees after it was peeking at mid 60's on the rollers also the charge cooler water was 28-34 degrees. All figures at 13psi on a august evening. Rolling pointing north by north west :D
Told you CC were ****e on the GTT mate
Ohhh.
I went through the same as you but with the pace kit
Ahhh.
:rolleyes:
Tony Walker
22-10-2010, 20:28
Just a thought.
What factory performance car with the engine up front has a charge cooler? I don't think there are many. I have doubts over the 'claimed' benefits of charge cooling over intercooling. I suppose we will have see some hard facts before we can actually see what happens on the GTT.
BTW I have a pwr charge cooler.
We had a toyota celica gt4 RC in a year or so ago for alot of work, that had a charge cooler, but it was special to that limited edition.
Someone simply ought to measure the outgoing water temp of a charge cooler and see if it's the same as the air temp exiting it.
If it is, then it's doing a good job, but if the air is over 90°C and the water 35°C then it's a poor heat exchanger and there are no ifs or buts about that.
If an inter cooler is then fitted and the exiting air is 40°C.... Need more be said?
Also measure the water temp exiting from the 'pre-rad' to see how far above ambient that is. But why spend so much on such a convoluted system when the cheaper tried and tested does the job, apparently, better.
I would of loved to get it all working nice but I got fed up. The AVT rad was over £200 and who knows if it would sort the issue.
As you said Ian £73 delivered cooler from the bay and all seems well now.
I think it would be a good to have a thread of peoples ACT results. So people in the future can see what would be best for there application.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.