View Full Version : Clio 1.8 16V
Ok I am consdering doing the R19 1.8 16v conversion into my R5 (If I keep the 5 as have taken a deposit but not sure I can't part with the car may have to tell the bloke the engine has blown up can't sell:laugh:) but want to maintain the use of my Radtec Alloy Rad and Intercooler setup as I will in the future be putting a turbo on it and wanting to re-use this kit.
I am wondering how much space do you still have @ the front when the engine is all in place so I can get an idea as to how to make the kit fit? (Suppose i could always cut the crossmember and weld.
Also has anybody tried a VNT that was made for the R5 and is it any good on the 1.8 16v engine? or is to small?
Sorry if the questions are a little simple but that is just me:laugh::laugh: Simple as
From what I've seen when we converted Ricardo's old gtt, you can just about get a radiator in there, let alone anything else.
For sure you'd have to lose/modify the front crossmember as to accomodate the Radtec setup.
Not that much space due to the inlet manifold.
http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v140/38/58/516426431/n516426431_369746_135.jpg
Normal 16v rad fits in just. Ive just had to cut the cross member as re weld a new angle iron bar across to strengthen as the fan was too tight against the hoses behind the rad so fan is now in front. Not sure what sort of size the intercooler is but im guessing if you dont mind modifying the bumpers then i dont see why it couldn't fit i guess, I just prefer the original look at the front now.
As for the turbo, my gt28rs spools up under 2k revs and pulls all the way up to the limiter. Think the problem with the VNT is going to be the mapping side i seem to remember somebody saying due to the air flow and things like that.
:coffee::smokin:
Cheers for the advice, going to see if I can source a decent engine for decent cost
Why not start off with a better base? (namely a 172/182 engine)
Why not start off with a better base? (namely a 172/182 engine)
Hmmmm 2.0L I remember seeing Ashy's @ Nat Day wish I got a closer look now. Looks like he may be getting a pm:laugh:
Aii, and don't forget Scoff's monster as well.
Aii, and don't forget Scoff's monster as well.
:agree: Many thanks for all the advice defo going to be sending a few pm's about:laugh:
Big Steve - Raider
15-10-2008, 13:58
COUGH VAG 1.8 20V Turbo?? COUGH
COUGH VAG 1.8 20V Turbo?? COUGH
Should go to doctors to see about that cough ;)
COUGH VAG 1.8 20V Turbo?? COUGH
I did like the drive in the VAG clio @ Nat Day when Dale took me for a spin, but I was trying to get the money together for Minty's clio VAG but doesn't look like that will be happening as I just can't let the 5 go yet. So I am wanting to do some kind of conversion over a peroid of time but stick with a Renault engine.
Duncan Grier
15-10-2008, 14:10
If you don't want the vag route you could always got 225 engine if you want to stay Renault ;)
I must've somehow amazingly missed out on all these drives of the vag clio... :crap:
;)
If you don't want the vag route you could always got 225 engine if you want to stay Renault ;)
I remeber reading a thread about Matt C Tinworm doing the 225 conversion be interesting to see what it is like once completed.
Looks like I may be holding out to see the completion of his project before I make descision on which engine.
Andrew Cooke
15-10-2008, 14:29
I remeber reading a thread about Matt C Tinworm doing the 225 conversion be interesting to see what it is like once completed.
Looks like I may be holding out to see the completion of his project before I make descision on which engine.
I'd say that it's a lot easier to turbo a 172 than it is to fit the 225.
I must've somehow amazingly missed out on all these drives of the vag clio... :crap:
;)
FAIL
Likewise for Duncan's VXR, and Alex's CSL... :crap: :sad2:
;)
When turboing the 172/182 what clutch and flywheel to peeps tend to use?? Do they stick with GTT??
When turboing the 172/182 what clutch and flywheel to peeps tend to use?? Do they stick with GTT??
Ive kept with the gt turbo one even though im using the 172 gearbox. However will be looking at 215mm flywheel/clutch set up when the time comes as they will be better at holding it. But the valeo clutch is holding for the time being so dont need to worry at the moment :)
:agree: Cheers for the info Dale, what about using the R5 clocks? is this possible
Depends on what gearbox you are after. If you go gt turbo gearbox you use the gt turbo clocks. f7p/f7r/clio 172 phase 1 gearbox you use any clio/19 16v clocks which with a little modifying can fit in the 5 dash clocks space (ive got them in mine) if you go phase 2 clio 172 or 182 engine your stuck with clocks you will need to look elsewhere
Duncan Grier
15-10-2008, 16:42
Likewise for Duncan's VXR, and Alex's CSL... :crap: :sad2:
;)
LOL you can have a go next time we are on track sir ;) just not the ring :D there is none of that jap taxi 4wd saftey stuff going on in our cars :D:D:D well maybe there are options in Al's?
Sure Alex will let you rag it round the ring :agree:
Seems although we have been to mulitiple track days and events together we still have not experianced each others cars lol. I have never even been a passenger in yours yet :crap:
Big Steve - Raider
15-10-2008, 17:57
I must've somehow amazingly missed out on all these drives of the vag clio... :crap:
Oh you should of said mate, you could have had a drive...... oh no.... hang on i forgot you sold your band & was running the Creche instead ;) :p :laugh:
Anytime geeze! ;)
Rob@Backyardracing
15-10-2008, 18:07
Best thing with the 1.8 16v the lump is cheap, so if you get it wrong and score a block or what ever there wouldnt be to much of a fuss to sort it out....
What kind of reliable power are you looking at with a turbo charged 1.8 16v block? What benefits for you get from the 172 block with its higher price?
rs250nut
15-10-2008, 18:49
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Why not start off with a better base? (namely a 172/182 engine)
Is this a better base to start with? Why not use an F7R? Megane or williams
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Is this a better base to start with? Why not use an F7R? Megane or williams
F7R is 150bhp standard and on an old engine
172 and 182 are 172bhp and 182bhp. However problem being as Scoff found out torque is too much on the 2l engines
too much torque :o never!
BlueFish5Gt
15-10-2008, 21:02
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Is this a better base to start with? Why not use an F7R? Megane or williams
I thing that the bore and stroke of an f7p are better for a turbo conversion as it revs higher than an F7R.
rs250nut
15-10-2008, 21:28
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
I thing that the bore and stroke of an f7p are better for a turbo conversion as it revs higher than an F7R.
I can see why people go for the 1.8 due to cost, but the williams head is better and with a bit of machining and a 1.8 crank I think you have a better engine. What is the bore and stroke of the f4r? is it closer to being square?
Why stress the engine by rev'ing it high though? I'd start off with a 2L base, which then gives you scope for a torque'y and/or more power overall setup.
As ya man said above, without even touching the engine you'll be starting off with 170/180hp.
As ya man said above, without even touching the engine you'll be starting off with 170/180hp.
Where I need to run 6psi to get that over that amount.
Rob@Backyardracing
15-10-2008, 22:36
Why stress the engine by rev'ing it high though? I'd start off with a 2L base, which then gives you scope for a torque'y and/or more power overall setup.
As ya man said above, without even touching the engine you'll be starting off with 170/180hp.
I think it depends what you want from the engine... weather it be drag or track etc for the torque... but very true basic point....
Also if your blowing a 172 it wont be 172bhp once you drop the comp for the charge dont forget, unless you run pony boost..... (ps im not saying pony boost is slow by all means) just a point....
But the 172 is going to be the best head out the lot for the job so yes its going to be the best lump to turbo.....
You're always gonna get more power, regardless, if there's a bigger displacement to start with. And unless I'm wrong, and by all means correct me if I am, I haven't seen nor heard of any F7P based turbo conversions setting the 1/4 mile alight.
As for the 172/182 comp' ratio, fair enough, you may have to drop it a point or 2 to run some boost through it, but it's not like you're gonna be dropping the base power down to 137hp (or whatever the F7P standard hp output is).
Mart its not all about 1/4 mile though. Track days is also where it should be.
Rob@Backyardracing
15-10-2008, 23:05
For sure your going to make more power with a 2L with out a dout... But then peeps would soon need to invest in proper gearbox mods with the extra torq for drag i would have thought (if used for that).. Scoffs 1.8 172 route seems the best way (for drag) and big boost...But a 2l stroke lower boost car would be brutal on a track...:)
And no there arnt many f7p turbos setting fast 1/4 from what ive seen...
Blahhhhh C1J power rules anyway :ashamed:
I know mate, it was just a tongue in cheek reply back to Rob's comment about whether you want drag or track performance from the engine. My point was that it shouldn't really matter for either scenario if you start with a good base for power.
Blahhhhh C1J power rules anyway :ashamed:
Exactly :agree: :D
Rob@Backyardracing
15-10-2008, 23:13
Exactly :agree: :D
And heres me in process of the D16 civic team car :ashamed: wheres my coat......
Matt Cole
15-10-2008, 23:17
I'd say that it's a lot easier to turbo a 172 than it is to fit the 225.
LOL not wrong there Andy, its a bit of a challenge. :eek:It should be ready to fire possibly this weekend delays mainly been due to having a dodgy ecu. Its all in, wired and only one sensor away from the big turn on! Fingers crossed it works.:agree:
when peeps talk about cost, I bought my ph2 172 engine with all ancillaries for £450 I recon by the time I sell the power steering and air con bits it'll stand me closer to £350.. I've seen similar for the 1.8 16v for about £200 so we're not talking a huge pricing difference I think the cost comes in when you start looking at the engine managment and costs associated in turboing it engineering and fabrication (if if turboing is the route)
Depends on the ultimate goal, I must adit there's a lot more 1.8's knocking around than 172 engines at £450
Erm, obviously you haven't tried breaking a renault 19. Can pick them up for 200-300, sell alloys on 100, selling seats on (if leather) weigh car in, cost equals nothing :) plus you know the f7p lump is running because you can hear it running. You then also have all the hoses, ECU, wiring, to plug and play. No worries about modifying the bonnet for it to fit. 172, if your going NA you either need to get the ECU programmed in to get rid of the immobiliser, you also need to make sure the gearbox is the right one else the speedo wont work. Most engines are from the later models, so do you go for gt turbo box? Theres pros and cons for both engines.
Ok just a little update on this, i have been able to source an early type 172 engine with the cable throttle and ECU that has been fully unlocked + all the other gubbines pipes, loom,.
At present i am only going to go N/A but in the near future will go turbo.
Now I am just a little unsure if this is a good move from my modified C1J, as the Mrs's keeps tellimg me that if i do it i will only regret it and she is normally right when it comes to the 5? what do you guys think I should do C1J or the 172 in N/A (for now)?
i would have thought the c1j would be quicker/nippier and the 172 more rev happy with more scope.
depends exactly what your after.
Matt Cole
17-10-2008, 22:09
The problem is you can't just bang the 172 in and go racing. It takes ages to get to a point where you actually trust the conversion. Also the good thing with the cij is its cheap to fix. Pop a head gasket on the 172 and its a good £200 + for the parts. You will also have to lower the compression when you consider turboing it and to get the best from it all and aftermarket ecu is a must. But its a great conversion and worth the hassle.:agree:
Decision made 172 Turbo conversion it is.
Car will be coming off the road hopefully over the next couple of weeks whilst I remove the C1J and obtain / collect the 172 parts needed.
could we have some sort of database telling us of all top renault breakers in the country.?
thought it may help with folks who want to source parts for spares for conversions!
Selling any parts on the C1J?
car.crash
19-10-2008, 16:04
james keep us updated on the conversion. once im finished with 5's i would mind getting a 172 and putting a blower on it.
james keep us updated on the conversion. once im finished with 5's i would mind getting a 172 and putting a blower on it.
I will defo keep you guys posted with developments.
With regards to bits left I have sold the C1J as complete with head and the VNT, I am keeping the gearbox as I am wanting to retain the GTT clocks the only things i have left are the Radtec Intercooler and alloy rad setup that could possibly be up for sale if i cannot get it to fit in the engine bay with the 172 engine. Will find out in just over a weeks time as I collect everything from under the bonnet of a 172 that took 1 up the rear:laugh:.
main issue i'm finding now with my setup (blown f7p) is gearboxes and clutches, the 200mm clutch setup just wont cut it i dont think indefinately, currently i run a full helix 4 paddle setup and thats holding, but pre to that i ripped up a willy valeo clutch and a gtt uprated gsf valeo job
current spec is 15.5psi and 254bhp, 230lb/ft and a 12.9 1/4 mile on road tyres
so its not slow but could do more
Why stress the engine by rev'ing it high though? I'd start off with a 2L base, which then gives you scope for a torque'y and/or more power overall setup.
As ya man said above, without even touching the engine you'll be starting off with 170/180hp.
mart........ I didn't go to all that trouble fitting an 1800cc crank for nothing ;) at even 15psi boost the 2l will make enough torque to kill gearbox's on a weekly basis. why on earth will the 2l make more power ? Its the same cylinder head. power has nothing to do with cc's. :)
Andrew Cooke
19-10-2008, 19:59
when you're hampered with a Renault gearbox you have to do everything possible to keep the torque down, so the only way to make power is going to be with revs. As Coops has found 15psi+ is going to give you real troubles. If you're looking for any kind of transmission reliability 7psi is more sensible, of course with low boost and a big turbo you could run quite high CR. With the right bits you could get over 300hp at 7psi.
surely massive lag issue would crop up then, if i'm totally honest mine feels laggy with the 28 on it, the 1.8 just doesnt displace enough air to spool it up at low rpm. but there again if your only after 7psi for that kind of power (how, tell me what parts i need, lol) you dont need much pressure......
bloody turbo dynamics confuse the hell outta me!
Andrew Cooke
19-10-2008, 20:42
surely massive lag issue would crop up then, if i'm totally honest mine feels laggy with the 28 on it, the 1.8 just doesnt displace enough air to spool it up at low rpm. but there again if your only after 7psi for that kind of power (how, tell me what parts i need, lol) you dont need much pressure......
bloody turbo dynamics confuse the hell outta me!
off boost you have a NA 172 - no slouch, and on boost you have a turbo monster. Sure, it'll be peaky. You're probably looking at full boost at over 6K. Have a look at a GT35R, or 4088R.
Which 28RS did you get?
gt spec, think its a .60 or something? no idea tbh but its written on it iirc:ashamed::laugh:
Andrew Cooke
20-10-2008, 18:18
def GT28RS not GT28R?
If so there are 2 exhaust housings, the slightly ghey .64 and the .86
defo rs, thats the dual ball bearing spec isnt it, it was wider on the exhaust housing than my old gt28 which i presume is due to wider bearing, had i right kerfuffle to get downpipe clearance etc as wider housing shifter everthing 5mm to offside of the car:rolleyes:, no idea on exhuast side code, the compressor side is a .6 something, if i had the car to hand i could check but i basically ordered the same spec turbo from same supplier bbpt use for my conversion
Andrew Cooke
20-10-2008, 18:33
defo rs, thats the dual ball bearing spec isnt it, it was wider on the exhaust housing than my old gt28 which i presume is due to wider bearing, had i right kerfuffle to get downpipe clearance etc as wider housing shifter everthing 5mm to offside of the car:rolleyes:, no idea on exhuast side code, the compressor side is a .6 something, if i had the car to hand i could check but i basically ordered the same spec turbo from same supplier bbpt use for my conversion
they're both dual ball bearing, that's what the R stands for. Maybe I'll have a squint at BB
rs250nut
20-10-2008, 19:14
surely massive lag issue would crop up then, if i'm totally honest mine feels laggy with the 28 on it, the 1.8 just doesnt displace enough air to spool it up at low rpm. but there again if your only after 7psi for that kind of power (how, tell me what parts i need, lol) you dont need much pressure......
bloody turbo dynamics confuse the hell outta me!
Laggy with a T28? What cams do you have? Are 1.8 cams suitable for forced induction? Could it be you have to much over lap and your blowing boost out of the exhaust. Compared to the fords no one seems to make any decent parts for renaults.
It's not a T28, it's a GT28RS...
rs250nut
20-10-2008, 19:20
It's not a T28, it's a GT28RS...
O.k
rs250nut, the cam's arn't that wild really, with a big turbine (I guess he has 0.64 on his GT28rs) and not much boost they'll probably work OK. My 172 cams are wilder than those and I run quite a lot of boost with those. It would be a different story if he was trying to run a tiny turbo into choke ofcourse :)
maybe this all boils down to one persons interpretation of lag vs. anothers !
For sure your going to make more power with a 2L with out a dout...
why ? I think some people need to go and learn some basics ;)
its possible, having not been out in a tuned 5 much i cant really give a massive detail on why i think its laggy, maybe it isnt that bad, it just feels a bit like i have to rev it to get the best of it is all, lol
Andrew Cooke
20-10-2008, 21:45
its possible, having not been out in a tuned 5 much i cant really give a massive detail on why i think its laggy, maybe it isnt that bad, it just feels a bit like i have to rev it to get the best of it is all, lol
sounds like you need to get a diesel :D
Rob@Backyardracing
20-10-2008, 22:39
why ? I think some people need to go and learn some basics ;)
Everyday is a school day ;)
Engine now obtained and all parts just started by stripping the lump of all the :crap: thats not needed, like gearbox, PAS, air con etc.. I have even cleaned 1 side of the lump and given it a lick of paint.
Got to order some more parts from Renault tomorrow.
Engine now obtained and all parts just started by stripping the lump of all the :crap: thats not needed, like gearbox, PAS, air con etc.. I have even cleaned 1 side of the lump and given it a lick of paint.
Got to order some more parts from Renault tomorrow.
which lump you gone for james the 172 by the look of the manifold...get it turbo'd;)
Yeah it is the 172 lump but lack of funds at the mo is forcing me to go N/A for now but hopefully by next Nat day she will be turbo'd. Gives me a chance to sort out any niggly bits and give me some time to trust my conversion.
Woznaldo
20-11-2008, 10:20
I'd be very grateful if you could keep a sort of photo diary during the conversion so that others in the club (me) may make it a bit easier for themselves:D
Good luck and keep us posted!:agree:
I'd be very grateful if you could keep a sort of photo diary during the conversion so that others in the club (me) may make it a bit easier for themselves:D
Good luck and keep us posted!:agree:
I am already 1 step ahead matey, Have been uploading some pics as I go along as to bits I have acquired and what progress done to date, I have even started a how to guide which includes rough costs of parts required for the N/A conversion.
Some pics in my profile album and some under the Technical File section.
I'll have to pop round for a peep & a chat soon mate :)
I'll have to pop round for a peep & a chat soon mate :)
:agree:
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