Adaptronic / flywheel pickup

[TNT ANDY]

what problems are associated with using the standard flywheel tooth pattern with the adaptronic, I have got the car running with a 32-1 wheel from Scoff but Ross has found that there are issues with mounting the trigger wheel on the end of the crank (the way we have done it anyway) Ideally I would be able to use the standard teeth on the flywheel as I thought that was what peeps used to do a while back.

FYI - the way we have mounted the trigger wheel is by machine screwing the the trigger wheel to the bottom pully, then bolting and locktighting the whole lot to the crank after making a keyway on the bottom pully. Unfortunately at 7500rpm this strips the new keyway and the bottom pully comes loose.

Any comments?

[clee]

Scoff will be the man with the tech explanation but I found that the std pattern upset the ECU now and again .
GTA is the same big gap/big tooth but has 3 resets at 120 so perhaps confused it even more ...
It would fire up and run fine then the next time fire up and run like a bag-o-****e .Then sort itself out ,then not .....
36-1 cured it completely and it's run perfectly ever since .I suggest that you make this work properly rather than going to the std Renix pattern .In the long run it will be far better .

[Brigsy]

Assuming this is for the c1j, weld the bottom pulley to the bit that fits onto the end of the crank , fix your trigger wheel to the pulley then tighten the lot up ft.

I did read a thread about modding a better sensor to fit instead of the std renault tdc, that might also be worth a look?

[Matt Cole]

Yeah the standard reno tdc is gash and gave me loads of grief. Funny thing was, we inverted the wires and it ran spot on, but then packed in again!:scratch: I changed to a cosworth pick up and fabricated my own bracket. Cured it and has never fliched in 2 yrs.

[Chris Hebden]

http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=126 ;)

[c7borg]

what problems are associated with using the standard flywheel tooth pattern with the adaptronic

I've been running a standard gtt tdc on a 172 flywheel since last October without any issues, that was on an Emerald whether or not that makes a difference I don't know.

[allanr5gtt]

I've been running a standard gtt tdc on a 172 flywheel since last October without any issues, that was on an Emerald whether or not that makes a difference I don't know.

same here 172 fly wheel with std tdc and emerald :)

[clee]

Does the 172 have the big tooth, big gap system ?

[allanr5gtt]

looks just like the c1j flywheel i will get some pic's as mine is off the engine at the mo.

[Os8472]

Weld the pully to the bit that bolts to the crank then weld the trigger wheel to the pully, the woodruff key is at tdc so try to get the gap on the trigger wheel lined up with that

[TNT ANDY]

Scoff will be the man with the tech explanation but I found that the std pattern upset the ECU now and again .
GTA is the same big gap/big tooth but has 3 resets at 120 so perhaps confused it even more ...
It would fire up and run fine then the next time fire up and run like a bag-o-****e .Then sort itself out ,then not .....
36-1 cured it completely and it's run perfectly ever since .I suggest that you make this work properly rather than going to the std Renix pattern .In the long run it will be far better .

Cheers Lee - Yup thought there where issues and this thread confirms this. I'll keep on working at Scoffs Wheel and pick-up.

Nice mag issue recently BTW
:smokin:

[TNT ANDY]

Assuming this is for the c1j, weld the bottom pulley to the bit that fits onto the end of the crank , fix your trigger wheel to the pulley then tighten the lot up ft.

I did read a thread about modding a better sensor to fit instead of the std renault tdc, that might also be worth a look?

Top Bloke:agree::agree::agree::agree:

Didn't realise that that bit came off like that:cartman:. Nice one Brigsy an easy fix, I'll get on with it right away and spread the word.

Thanks :)

[TNT ANDY]

Yeah the standard reno tdc is gash and gave me loads of grief. Funny thing was, we inverted the wires and it ran spot on, but then packed in again!:scratch: I changed to a cosworth pick up and fabricated my own bracket. Cured it and has never fliched in 2 yrs.


Cheers Matt - further confirmation damning the standard fly-wheel.

I'll leave it alone.
:cool:

[TNT ANDY]

http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=126 ;)


That's exactly the one I've got - Thanks for the reply:)

[TNT ANDY]

Andy & Allan (nice couple)

Thanks for the reply, I wonder what the difference is with the 172 fly wheel, It'll be interesting to see what it is, as I may need to do the Clutch soon and this would be good at keeping things simple looking.
:)

[TNT ANDY]

Weld the pully to the bit that bolts to the crank then weld the trigger wheel to the pully, the woodruff key is at tdc so try to get the gap on the trigger wheel lined up with that


Cheers Oli - you just missed out on first prize which went to Brigsy. An opportunity to sleep with Handy Andy whilst stuffing BK Flamers wherever you fancy.

:agree::agree::agree:

[Scoff]

Andy, yes as brigsy and os say you're better off welding the lot together. It seems they can slip otherwise :crap: We did glenn Hi 5's this way recently - but it seems that it's the bottom pulley that slips on the hub, not the trigger wheel itself!

Re Adaptronic vs. Renix flywheel, no way around that one without altering the pattern. It's just a silly pattern. You could machine out the pair of 'filled' teeth so that each big tooth became 2 normal sized teeth, then you could probably write a config to to reset every 180° from the remaining missing teeth.

[Os8472]

Andy, yes as brigsy and os say you're better off welding the lot together. It seems they can slip otherwise :crap: We did glenn Hi 5's this way recently - but it seems that it's the bottom pulley that slips on the hub, not the trigger wheel itself!


I had mine welded not just so the trigger wouldn't slip but also to stop the pully wheel from slipping, after the bolt came loose on mine twice under heavy load I dind't fancy the whole lot comin loose when the ignition was read from it aswell

[Os8472]

Cheers Oli - you just missed out on first prize which went to Brigsy. An opportunity to sleep with Handy Andy whilst stuffing BK Flamers wherever you fancy.

:agree::agree::agree:


Oh well, next time maybe :wasntme:

[TNT ANDY]

Andy, yes as brigsy and os say you're better off welding the lot together. It seems they can slip otherwise :crap: We did glenn Hi 5's this way recently - but it seems that it's the bottom pulley that slips on the hub, not the trigger wheel itself!

Re Adaptronic vs. Renix flywheel, no way around that one without altering the pattern. It's just a silly pattern. You could machine out the pair of 'filled' teeth so that each big tooth became 2 normal sized teeth, then you could probably write a config to to reset every 180° from the remaining missing teeth.

Fooook that for silly b'stids - I wasn't aware that there was a removeable keyway on the end of the crank. This seems to be the way to go. It's been some time since I've had an engine apart. I'm glad to say.

Cheers for that.

AS
:)

[HAndy]

Cheers Oli - you just missed out on first prize which went to Brigsy. An opportunity to sleep with Handy Andy whilst stuffing BK Flamers wherever you fancy.

:agree::agree::agree:

:upyours::upyours::upyours::drunk:you wait till friday!

your gonnnaa squeal like ah P---I----G!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Woznaldo]

Andy, yes as brigsy and os say you're better off welding the lot together. It seems they can slip otherwise :crap: We did glenn Hi 5's this way recently - but it seems that it's the bottom pulley that slips on the hub, not the trigger wheel itself!

Re Adaptronic vs. Renix flywheel, no way around that one without altering the pattern. It's just a silly pattern. You could machine out the pair of 'filled' teeth so that each big tooth became 2 normal sized teeth, then you could probably write a config to to reset every 180° from the remaining missing teeth.

Scoff, have you got any pictures of the welds carried out on the above as I'll probably be doing mine next weekend?

Do you mean weld the pulley to item 8 on the below dialogys page?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carolyn.casey1/manual/10%20Engine/crankshaft.html

Thanks,

Woz

[allanr5gtt]

i think so i will look at what i have a post a pic's or two.

[Scoff]

Scoff, have you got any pictures of the welds carried out on the above as I'll probably be doing mine next weekend?

Do you mean weld the pulley to item 8 on the below dialogys page?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/carolyn.casey1/manual/10%20Engine/crankshaft.html

Thanks,

Woz

Hi Woz

Yes, weld 9 to 8. 8 (the hub) has a woodruff so will sit on the crank and not move. We found the pulley (9) would slip on the hub (8). Not a problem when it's only driving the waterpump and alternator but a bit of an issue once a trigger wheel is on there. I'd also tack weld the trigger wheel to the pulley too just to be 100%.

[Woznaldo]

Thanks Scoff :agree:

Now, can I remember how to MIG weld?..............

[Scoff]

If it helps we marked everything up on the crank so that trigger wheel, pulley and hub were all aligned correctly (missing tooth about 80deg BTDC). Pulled it all off and clamped the lot together with a big valve spring compressor then mig'd it up.

[allanr5gtt]

http://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Allanr5gtt/allans%20file%20659.jpghttp://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%20Files/Allanr5gtt/allans%20file%20660.jpg

[allanr5gtt]

sorry for the delay but i hope this is what you was looking for.

[Woznaldo]

This is probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyway.

Do I need to drain the oil before I pull the pulley boss off? I'm assuming no as it's at the centre of the crank and therefore should be above the oil level in the sump. The only oil should just be residual?

[James5]

This is probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyway.

Do I need to drain the oil before I pull the pulley boss off? I'm assuming no as it's at the centre of the crank and therefore should be above the oil level in the sump. The only oil should just be residual?

:laugh: No need to drain the oil matey just need to stop the engine turning when trying to undo the 19mm bolt, you need to lock the flywheel with decent size flat head or metal bar.

[Woznaldo]

I've got all my EFI-Parts Trigger Wheel gear hooked up but, I'm not getting any Cranking RPM readout from my ECU and hence, no spark.

The gap is 1.9mm and I just tried to reverse the polarity but the cranking voltage from the VR Sensor is down to 0.9vAC? I think it was at least 1.2v before (may have been on DC mode though)?

Is my gap too large?

[TNT ANDY]

I would say so.

Sounds too big to me.

[Scoff]

They normally work on those 184mm wheels right up to 4mm air gap so check that you've wired it correctly. If it's an Adaptronic it should be fed in to CAS1 and CAS GND. I guess you're using a 36-1 base map or you've run the CAS wizard and told it how many teeth the trigger wheel has, etc ?

[TNT ANDY]

They normally work on those 184mm wheels right up to 4mm air gap so check that you've wired it correctly. If it's an Adaptronic it should be fed in to CAS1 and CAS GND. I guess you're using a 36-1 base map or you've run the CAS wizard and told it how many teeth the trigger wheel has, etc ?

That shows how much I know LOL

[Woznaldo]

I'm running MS1 Extra using the Ford EDIS setup for ignition. The EDIS has its own 'limp home' built in so I'll try to eliminate the ECU as an issue first.

I also think that my polarity for the VR Sensor was probably right the first time!

I'll let you know how I get on.

[Woznaldo]

OK, I swapped the VR Sensor polarity back and the voltage went back up to 1.2vAC, so I think it's the right way. Having a look at the Megajolt website suggests that I should be seeing 2.5vAC? Is 1.2vAC enough for the EDIS Module to recognise the signal?

[Scoff]

Ah its EDIS, so polarity is important. Look here for correct polarity:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=123

Drop the air gap down, I assumed you had an Adaptronic sorry. Adaptronic also isn't all that fussy about polarity.

[Woznaldo]

What's the easiest way to drop the gap? Elongate the bracket mounting holes or one of them?

[Woznaldo]

I elongated the bracket mounting holes by roughly 1mm and got the gap down to 1.2mm and the the cranking voltage went up to 1.75v AC (still not 2.5v AC) but still no cranking rpm or spark.

I think my EDIS4 Module may have some kind of issue so I might get hold of a replacement just to rule it out.

[Scoff]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the volts Woz, it'll vary hugely dependant on cranking rpm. I've used the same kit with an EDIS and megajolt, no trouble there. Definately worth trying another EDIS and checking it's wiring.

Note, use screened 2 core for the crank sensor to EDIS, they can be fussy.

[Woznaldo]

I'm edging towards trying a new EDIS Module because all other outputs seem to be good. I've tried reducing the gap further but to no avail. I've been advised to try reversing the polarity again at the new air gap distances despite trying it once before at the original gap.

[Woznaldo]

I've elongated the Bracket holes to close the clearance gap to just under 1mm and getting a decent 1.9v AC but still not getting any spark. The EDIS is disconnected from the ECU, so is in limp home mode and should be giving a steady 10 deg advance. I even got a replacement EDIS4 Module but still no change.

I made my own ignition leads but I'm pretty sure that they are good and the Coil Pack tested fine?

[SCHWARTZ]

Sorry to hi-jack this thread, but I'm also trying to get my megasquirt ms1 v3.0 to run my b18ft. Im using the standard tdc and flywheel and standard coil pack, and I'm getting no cranking signal. Is it worth my while using a cosworth sensor off Chris?
Woz what pins have you wired the tdc's signal ground and screen to?

[Woznaldo]

Gary, I running EDIS and the MS Relay Board. My MS is also a V2.2 so I use different pins to those of the V3.0 MS. But, for shizzle and giggles:

MS Pin 24 is the PIP signal - which goes to RB Pin 7 (tacho)
MS Pin 25 is the SAW signal - which goes to RB Pin 15 (S1)

RB Pin 7 goes to EDIS Module Pin 1
RB Pin 15 goes to EDIS Module Pin 3

The VR (Crank) Sensor positive goes to Pin 6 on the EDIS Module
The VR (Crank) Sensor negative goes to Pin 5 on the EDIS Module
The VR (Crank) Sensor shield goes to Pin 7 on the EDIS Module

:)

[SCHWARTZ]

yeah that sounds quite different to how im doing it. I have the tdc signal to pin 24, gnd to pin 1 and screen to pin 2 direct to the ms 36 pin plug.

[Woznaldo]

Does anyone know if I can measure the Coil Pack switching output coming from the EDIS4 Module or an ECU for that matter.

I'm still not getting spark but, I have tried a different EDIS4 Module and I've tried reversing the polarity, all to no avail?

I'm thinking I may have a problem with my coil pack or even HT leads?

[Woznaldo]

Problem sorted. I had a partially mismarked relay! I thought I had (and the wire diagram on the side says) a STSP with two (87) outputs giving me two switched 12v outputs. What I actually have is SPST with one NO and one NC output (EDIS was wired to NC!). I was checking the NO output everytime so all appeared to be well?... :ashamed:

I now have spark! Woo Hoo!

Car has now fired but I think trigger wheel may be a little off from the required 90 deg BTDC as it idles for a few secs and then dies. Could also be Carb set up as it's not been run since rebuild.