View Full Version : Strange clutch fault.
Having a few problems with the new clutch on the van:crap:
The story goes, last time it was on the road all of a sudden i couldnt select gears with engine running after a hard flat out run. I could select gears when engine was switched off & change whilst on move with no clutch. Took engine out & as suspected the plate was shot, one of the springs had departed.
I have fitted new 4 paddle ap plate, used original valeo green box pressure plate.
The problem i have now, is i cant select gears when engine is running if clutch pedal is fully down:crap: However i can get it into gear fine with engine running if pedal is only half way down? It drives ok at that but its not right by far..
The box will select gears fine when turned off/clutch pedal half down. The bite is near half way/top. I have slipped the ratchet numerous times/used without pedal stop/even shimmed cable with no joy.
Im 99.9999% sure the plate is in the right way, the ap plate even had flywheel side marked on it but its been a few weeks since fitted.
The pivot bush for the arm is as good as new, release arm is fine i checked them whilst it was in bits.
The cable is genuine renault, The pedal/ratchet is gen renault & was renewed a couple of thousand miles back.
The question is this a cable fault or is it box off time to inspect the plate/splines etc, Thoughts all?
Andrew Cooke
04-03-2010, 23:29
is it possible to fit the AP clutch back to front? It's a few years since I looked at one
I dont think it Andy, I double checked before fitting so im pretty confident its the right way. Im sure the clutch had marked on it 'flywheel side'.
They are marked as you say :)
It's pretty hard to fit the clutch the wrong way around, as the take-up springs protrude more on one side, hence you wouldn't get a snug/flush fit against the flywheel if they were positioned that way (as they'd be touching the flywheel bolts).
Andrew Cooke
04-03-2010, 23:42
It's pretty hard to fit the clutch the wrong way around, as the take-up springs protrude more on one side, hence you wouldn't get a snug/flush fit against the flywheel if they were positioned that way (as they'd be touching the flywheel bolts).
what springs?
http://www.superformance.co.uk/parts/5000f_308_clutch_plate.jpg
Andrew Cooke
04-03-2010, 23:45
http://www.superformance.co.uk/parts/5000f_308_clutch_plate.jpg
and that's an AP 4 paddle clutch is it?
No, but what's that gotta do with the price of fish? Same meat, different gravy...
http://www.powerengineering.co.uk/acatalog/F_Clutches_AP4paddle.jpg
Andrew Cooke
04-03-2010, 23:52
or is it
http://www.apracing.com/pics/productpics/cp5344dp.jpg
You geeza :D
The AP paddle I fitted to the old Raider had springs. I didn't think there were any other AP alternatives for the c1j/jb3?
Mine has springs, heres a pic of it..
http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm453/Brigsygtt/DSC_00041200x798.jpg
Im sure it had retaining plates that hold the springs in place on both sides of the plate. Could it be hitting the flywheel bolts, the flywheel has been faced so may have had too much took off? Was ok with a valeo like but never say never..
markey b
05-03-2010, 00:27
you can get unsprung paddles, but as 90% of cars on here can be driven on the road it makes them a niche market :laugh:
Mine has springs, heres a pic of it..
Im sure it had retaining plates that hold the springs in place on both sides of the plate. Could it be hitting the flywheel bolts, the flywheel has been faced so may have had too much took off? Was ok with a valeo like but never say never..
As I said above, you'll notice the springs protrude more on one side of the plate than the other. What you want is the plate to sit flush against the flywheel - If it doesn't, it'll be the springs hitting the flywheel bolts, hence you need to spin/fit the plate the other way around.
The plate did sit flush with the flywheel mate, i fitted the flywheel lettering facing the flywheel. I can foresee this being a fecking box off job to see what is going on:crap:
In that case, it sounds like the clutch plate has been fitted ok to me...
I actually wonder if this is pressure plate related? I did reuse the original as it was in good nick considering the old clutch plate was kaputt..
I just cant get my head round why it works with half travel fine, but bury the pedal into the carpet & it will not go into gear.
markey b
05-03-2010, 14:31
is the cable too short, maybe half pedal is operating the release fingers as they should, but then full pedal maybe the release bearing is pushing on the centre plate and forcing it back onto the flywheel, partially engaging it again making it hard to change
Have changed the cable for a good spare o.e cable, no difference. Both cables were the same length when compared.
I also have a cream block that restricts the pedal, is that correct for the gtt as it was originally derv..
Its as if the clutch pedal or arm has too much throw, 1" off the floor & it works fine. As soon as the pedal goes the thickness of sound deadening/carpet it wont have it. The thing that bugs me the most is that most valeo clutches require the cluth burying into the floor so they work?!
Ignorance is kicking in a bit at the moment, i might just pmt a rubber doorstop in the hole in the carpet for the time being & ride the problem out for a few miles.
just an 'out loud'..could it be the g'box at fault???
:confused:
Matt Cole
05-03-2010, 20:20
Brigsy did you check when ordering the thickness of the paddles with the valeo one? From memory i think when compresing the valeo friction plate material, its 7.1mm. There are different thicknesses available which will invariably effect how the clutch engages/disengages.
Good point Matt, im not sure what thickness the clutch is? I just asked the lad at techcraft & he knew which one i needed without any measurements so took it for granted its the right one.
For now i have just whacked a bit of rubber in the hole in the carpet to restrict the travel, a bit pmt but seems to work....Im planning on pulling the lump out for a new cam in a couple of weeks so hopefully it will fair ok.
Matt Cole
05-03-2010, 21:38
yeah different thicknesses for different pressure plates, Valeo 801015 is on the 7mm ish size where as from memory others are 6.5mm.
yeah different thicknesses for different pressure plates, Valeo 801015 is on the 7mm ish size where as from memory others are 6.5mm.
the ap should be 7.62mm, the same as a valeo.
I got my old paddle from Techcraft & used it wit hthe valeo cover ( from reccomendation off Chris) & it worked fine.. odd problem you have Brigsy
you still got the box brigsy? Shows the thickness on the side.
this was mine http://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.php?albumid=344&pictureid=3066
I think markey is on the right lines, it can't be much else can it. If you can't change gear while the engine is running it's because the clutch is dragging (partially engaged - for whatever reason). It doesn't have to be the friction surfaces that are dragging, it might be that the springs or release bearing is being pushed into the the clutch plate.
yeah, bump stop sounds like the easy way out. if you're still curious though you could measure the old plate to check that it's around the 7.6mm mark. Maybe valeo have changed the spec, or maybe your clutch was an oddball, but if you think about it, if it was 6.5mm (the other common thickness) then the springs would now be sitting much closer to the flywheel than they did with a thinner plate. combine that with a self adjusting pedal mech and it's easy to see why the springs might be contacing. Ofcourse, if the old plate was 7.6mm then it's all b/s :)
Aye thats got to be the problem! when i pull engine out ill check the new plate. My pmt bump stop seems to be working for now so its all good.
Have checked the clutch today whilst engine is out, Clutch plate is good & fitted correct way.
I think the pressure plate is at fault, kind of hard to explain with no pics but here goes.
The forks have a wear mark, where the release bearing pushes onto it, one half is about 3mm away from the innermost part of the forks, the other half is right on the edge.
I think the release bearing is falling into the marks, the bearing is pushing the forks & falling off at full travel, half releasing the pressure making the clutch drag. Its working at half travel due to pushing the forks evenly. Ill get some pics of it tomorrow it is strange.
I can only see the damage/marking caused when the spring was pointing out the old clutch & i had to drive ten mile home with it not working..
Anyway ill renew it whilst in bits, do gsf still sell the green box valeo?
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