View Full Version : C1J build.
Markey Mark (BD)
24-02-2010, 15:43
After an interest from MFaulks (Martin) into seeing what could be done to the C1J engine i offered to drop an engine round to him so he could have alook, throw some ideas about and then put them into practise.
The ideas that were coming out look bloody amazing and am quite interested to see what he can do.
I'll be suppling Martin with whatever he needs, with what he's going to do to it i'll leave that to him to explain as he know's exactly what he's doing to it. Lets just say its different! :)
Once its all done it'll be slotting into this so we'll see how it goes! :D
Will keep updated with all the progress on it, sure Martin will do more than me as he'll be doing the machining work.
An almost 1600cc C1J by any chance :p...:agree:
Markey Mark (BD)
24-02-2010, 16:05
An almost 1600cc C1J by any chance :p...:agree:
Well that looks like the crank going in it now! :D;)
Its still going to be using the original head though but worked on alot, think Martin has got a plan in mind to replace exhaust valves and rocker ratio.
BluntyR5GTT
24-02-2010, 16:38
this sounds like a great project and increase in displacement has got to be good :)
Matt Cole
24-02-2010, 16:45
Now this is interesting! At last some good engine development chat!! Lets get this thread going and forget the ****ty other depressing thread!
rs250nut
24-02-2010, 17:17
Your still stuck with a 25mm venturi though
Yay my old campus getting really treated :)
Markey Mark (BD)
24-02-2010, 17:25
Your still stuck with a 25mm venturi though
May not be going with that, but saying that Stuart Clark and Santi Gianni seem to produce the power with it is situ (without the Nitrous)
Everything is going to be flow checked to see where exactly the restriction is, Martin may have changed the idea but the exhaust valves are going to be replaced with identical size valves to the inlet.
Alastair
24-02-2010, 17:49
Everything is going to be flow checked to see where exactly the restriction is, Martin may have changed the idea but the exhaust valves are going to be replaced with identical size valves to the inlet.
Why change the exhaust valves? You should get better power gains by concentrating on the inlet valve size, or are you doing both?
What crank are you using to stroke it to 1600? Sounds like a good project - good luck mate :)
Markey Mark (BD)
24-02-2010, 18:04
Why change the exhaust valves? You should get better power gains by concentrating on the inlet valve size, or are you doing both?
I'll let Martin answer that one but simple answer is he recon's inlet valve and port looks good enough, the exhaust side needs the most work doing to it.
Got to remember it needs to get out just as well as getting into the chamber.
Rob@Backyardracing
24-02-2010, 19:48
Going to be a great thread this...:agree: nice to see some progress of tuning the C1j...
Looking forward to the results of this too, fitting larger exhuast valves is somthing im looking at doing with this project.. http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=11503 :)
TrixNFlix
24-02-2010, 19:51
Good luck guys, look forward to seeing some interesting results and information. :agree:
Andrew Cooke
24-02-2010, 19:52
best be careful that the improved exhaust flow isn't from the manifold back into the chamber :cry:
Rob@Backyardracing
24-02-2010, 20:10
Bring on the custom cams, lagg and lenghty runners..:)
Andrew Cooke
24-02-2010, 20:25
Bring on the custom cams, lagg and lenghty runners..:)
cams? you've been gone too long :sad2:
Rob@Backyardracing
24-02-2010, 20:52
cams? you've been gone too long :sad2:
what we still one cam racing these days.. :wasntme:
Hi chaps, sorry for getting to this late, now understand the cryptic messages from Clee
Yes, going to look at various options, but firstly cut up the head and gather as much physical info first. Then play with ports and flow test a number of configurations.
The basic head layout is very compact and much smaller than most of the heads I work on, so will be an interesting aside.
Exhaust configuration is particularly poor, low position in the head, large relative surface area to volume, close proximity to the inlet ports - especially cylinder 1 and 4. Recessed valve, likely to reduce heat soak into the inlet, and scavenge over TDC, especially with the very long con-rod. Stroker crank, is a nice way of reducing this ratio, and making it more tolerant of long duration cams.
Focus of the project is to try stuff, suck it and see - quite literally in some ways, and have some fun with it.
Have some ideas for combustion chamber modifications and really need to look at the valve arrangement too. Inlet side I think can be made to flow really well and so focus will be to reduce heat soak from the exhaust side of the chamber, reduce tendency for on-set of det, and then squeeze hard :smokin:
Chris Hebden
04-03-2010, 13:27
:laugh: Before reading the thread i thought that this was going to be a Markey Mark step by step C1J build thread! How wrong i was................................... looking forward to seeing the results mate :)
Hi all, well sorry for the long gap... finishing other projects, some material searching: valves etc, and longer stroke crank - thanks Ilker your support has been tremendous.. all has added up with a blown laptop to a lay off, but things have been happening, so here goes:
Thanks guys for all the bits, you will see now they are being used.. and abused!
Firstly I cut up a scrap head donated by Mark to see what we have to play with, not much in places. But if there wasn't a challenge what's the point. As you will see it had been cosmetically ported at some stage, I say cosmetic because it’s the bit the untrained eye sees but of little overall effect. Real critical points especially for choke flow speak for themselves in the following. Other areas of concern is I found hairline cracks in the casting around the seat inserts starting at the water jacket casting seams and propagating in... can't be seen normally until the head is leaking...
Lots I have probably forgotten and I will bring more points as we go. Have generally decided to do 2 stages of tune this one, and another project later, reasons will become apparent. Any questions thoughts or plain abuse, just shout in don’t be afraid!
Second set of photos shows some seat inserts I have mashed in, and some straight cuts and a couple of angles. No flow work at this stage, just playing around as looks see and what can go in and what will be a problem. Once I've blended, shaped into throats and ports etc I will again cut these ports on the saw. Down to 3 cylinders at the moment, soon to be 2... those 2 will go into flow experiments.
I have hunted around for valves, and the combination I currently have are some nice 214 SST with inlay, 35.7mm inlet nice shape, or 37mm Rimflow – std is 34mm. Remember, all being equal, the potential increase in flow is proportional to the square of the radius. Not sure how well the Rimflow will work in this head, actually old technology now, but soon to play and find out. Sure like the additional diameter, masking will need to be balanced, but there is some room to the gasket fire ring that can be had. Exhaust side, have selected a nice 32mm diameter valve, and std is 28.9.
Sorry this is going to be a bit bitty as I throw the stuff up, but first up will be the inserts just in, and first rough cuts. Inlets bored to 33.3mm including the cut through port so you can see what's going on, but this is just a starting point, not a final number. Biggest valve has left a good throat; insert size could do with being increased so that a nice top cut can be made. Short side all critical area will blend in, and the insert will be blended round into the port as well. Currently this is a parallel bore as I mentioned currently. On the biggest valve, have also run down a straight clean up cut and this has worked nicely, will make porting work much more consistent. Exhaust bored through at 26.4, but loads more needs to come out of that, but the water jacket is real close, and hence will open out and cut on the saw to see if there is any ally left on the short turn. When I throw up the original port cut-through photos you will see why. Lots to do yet
:)
Matt Cole
05-07-2010, 22:48
Brilliant this and i dont even have a C1J!!! Everyone states the carb is a mess, but its the head thats a disgrace. Keep at it matey.:agree:
more pics as above description
last pics post before some more words...
Here goes on the scrap head sections, as can be seen some mod work had been done, but nothing that likely would have yield any additional power. in fact with the std size valve the throat area has lost all it's properties with a parallel bore, to make that work well again it would need blending at the insert and a larger valve. Gets back to the age old thing of coeff of discharge...
As to valve sizes, to go back to Alastair's question, yes inlets need increasing for VE, and higher rpm capability - time/area integral ratio balanced against port velocity, but with forced induction on a 2v there are always compromise. The main issue with this head is the heat retention, inefficient exhaust port damming up heat (hot gasses get more viscous, not less viscous with increased temperature - more port wall gas-flow frictional shearing, and surface separation - Reynolds numbers), additional pumping loss, causing early break into detonation limiting overall max boost. Installing a much larger exhaust valve closer to 90% to inlet if possible offsets this if the port can be made to flow and expel the heat to the turbo, which is where it needs to be. Problem on this head there really isn't so much meat to play with. I had wanted to offset the valve back, simply to put it further back in the port, can be done but loads of work and this will go into stage II. There are some other benefits to doing that too ;) . I would like to see how this goes first.
Pic salad as follows:
final important pics of cut sections:
rs250nut
06-07-2010, 00:21
Nice work Martin, I cant believe how much the inlet port narrows towards the throat area. Would this have been done for any particular reason? How would it affect gas speed
Hi, thanks for the support chaps
I think you are looking at the exhaust ports, in the immediately above set of photos, the inlet port is far right only, and set above that, inlet port is the last 3 photos.
The inlet is a capable port, and evident in that the engine does perform, however more can be gained, and this is the aim. The exhaust port is a significant restriction on power potential; however, as I have found on other Renault motors of similar generation, the hardware has been developed to the limit of the intended power level and no more. So suitable and sufficient engineering, but leaving in some cases limited further scope.
I will be looking into port velocities, and velocity profile in the ports, but this has to be coupled with where the power / torque curve is going to be moved and keeping good swirl / tumble in the cylinder for efficient combustion. All very well getting the air in, but wet flow and poor mixture homogeneous properties will kill the performance. Wet flow at low lift will be interesting on this port (gas speeds could be low depending final rpm this is tweaked for) and may looking at making it shear to throw it off the port floor.
Will also be interesting to see whether it is worth sacrificing SSR flow and early separation, if sufficient lift and rapid acceleration can be achieved with the valve to allow the port to be straightening and gain LSR flow. The combustion chamber shape and masking will start playing into this.
But at the end of the day, the engine will need to pull higher rpm with increased mass flow with suitable VE etc to increase torque, as capacity increase capability is very limited.
Obviously this is my take on it, and as always I could be off in the wrong direction, but this adds to the fun! :p
the engine will need to pull higher rpm
be careful with the high revs on the c1j engine. you will wear the liners out very quickly. no oil spray - flick only. Also if you increase the valve spring poundage you wear the cam follower/cam lobe out too. :(
Thanks yes, good point, but this motor is aimed at 1/4mile bashing mostly. So to some degree consumable items, unless the liners are made as specials, but long way from that as need to get some decent ponies from it first, and may even only complete one run before a big oily pile is left on the deck.. I have a lovely twin scroll IHI Titanium turbo to sling at it :laugh:
shouldn't be a problem to get the engine to last 1500 revolutions. :agree:
Markey Mark (BD)
06-07-2010, 18:14
The works looking good mate, i didn't realise how big the valves were till i spoke to you at Ace Cafe! :D
If more heads are needed got few more here! ;)
rs250nut
06-07-2010, 20:06
Just looking at this area, got to be room for improvement
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii108/rs250nut/c1jinlet.jpg
some amazing work there martin keep it up:)
As someone who knows naff all...............this is just the sort of thing that makes for an interesting project to read about- shall enjoy your progress...
Best of luck:agree:
shouldn't be a problem to get the engine to last 1500 revolutions.
Seriously though, I don't think this is going to be too serious an issue. The bottom end assembly will be lightened and fully balanced. The exact selection of piston remains to be chosen, but the BMW mini in forged form would certainly be heading in the right direction and a nice light assembly. Further, modern ring package and better oil control, pin height is about right, and I think I will be able to sleeve the small end for a floating pin. Liner is going to be the issue, as the minimum mini bore is around 77mm from memory, may be a tad larger. Ilker is sending me some 1600 C2J pistons, and I'll look at those and see if they'll do what we need, certainly as a starter.
The rods will get ARP fasteners, and be balanced.
As for the top end, the rocker shaft will be stiffened to reduce flex and ensure we can get rapid valve opening, and achieve full lift. I have selected single groove collet valves, and have matched to 7deg locks and some nice very light Titanium top spring caps. So will be reducing masses wherever I can - valve and spring cap masses especially. So this will assist in keeping spring poundage down, and will also convert to Iski twin interference springs to further control spring damping and onset of valve bounce. As I get further into these details I'll post up, but A series mini technology has provided the race valves and Titanium caps.
As to bore oiling, I think it will be a case of seeing what is needed. I have milled main saddles to insert oil squirters on Fiat 8V twin cam turbo conversions, but I must admit I can't say I really know if it works or not, moreover what degree really. There should be loads of oil mist (hope), and with a light ring tension package will see where we get. Obviously not going to get everything right, and you pays your money and makes your choice... my main concern about oil sprays is that you then need to control the additional oil loading on the rings, and any addition oil past top ring is going to lead to detonation very rapidly. In my opinion ring package selection is going to be critical for both aspects.
This motor will probably get pulled a few times, and so we can look at wear signs and under crown oil bake, and judge temps and whether oil spray cooling or cylinder wall oiling is going to be a problem. I am new to this engine, so almost certainly get things wrong and find out by mistake, so I do really appreciate all comments and heads-up. I'm not claiming originality here, as I'm sure much of this has been done before, I really don't know, so my blind ignorance could be a bonus or an Achilles heel. Hopefully be fun watching it either way. Intension is to use it in anger, and have some fun and share all along the ride
Just looking at this area, got to be room for improvement
Hi Jon :) yes lots of room, short side radius (SSR) is going to be important, port area as you mentioned etc. When I set about on the bench will see, the only other aspect in the equation is the long port and charge density loss through water jacket heating and proximity to the exhaust port, and 1 and 4 are worse off for this as there is an exhaust port either side of the inlet. So don't really want to increase the internal surface area of the port more than necessary. Bit like the old Yank iron V8's where the two outer cylinders typically would run less duration and lift on some circle track cams.
Life is nothing else than compromise, ceramic coatings would be nice... but not really street motor technology or pocket project funding.. :coffee:
i l k e r
07-07-2010, 16:28
- thanks Ilker your support has been tremendous...
don't mention it my friend, I'm glad i could help ;)
nice to see that the game is on and as said earlier in the pm I have high hopes about this project :agree:
good luck
ilker
don't mention it my friend, I'm glad i could help ;)
nice to see that the game is on and as said earlier in the pm I have high hopes about this project :agree:
good luck
ilker
:smokin: come in Ilker, your time is out ;) when are you going to get my cranks and pistonies shipped mate? Daz project is waiting chop chop, cheers mate :agree:
i l k e r
05-12-2010, 15:56
:smokin: come in Ilker, your time is out ;) when are you going to get my cranks and pistonies shipped mate? Daz project is waiting chop chop, cheers mate :agree:
:laugh:
well after 2 hours journey and a few dead ends and road blocks due to road repairs I managed to find FedEx's office yesterday, by the time I found the place they were closed :(
I'm planning another journey on Tuesday :scared:
fingers and toes crossed mate ;)
Cheers mate, sounds like one of my trips :p Thanks for the efforts! ;)
Woznaldo
29-12-2010, 13:05
Any updates Martin/Mark?
Well... been rather busy trying to get other stuff done, but good news is that I have a C3J crank here thanks to Ilker, big thanks there chap :agree: So I had better pull my finger out ;)
Woznaldo
29-12-2010, 23:51
No pressure Martin, it's just a very interesting thread.:agree:
i l k e r
30-12-2010, 06:02
Well... been rather busy trying to get other stuff done, but good news is that I have a C3J crank here thanks to Ilker, big thanks there chap :agree: So I had better pull my finger out ;)
finally :yeah:
I hope everything is as you'd wanted mate.
any problems, just let me know :agree:
Ouch!! Just got the bill for the shipping from FedEx - 609 quid!!!!
YOU WHAT !!!
Mate, you really need to stop! now !
SCHWARTZ
14-01-2011, 16:06
:eek: was that on a gold ****ing boat?
:eek: would have been cheaper to go get it yourself thats crazy money for delivery
Markey Mark (BD)
14-01-2011, 16:13
Ouch!! Just got the bill for the shipping from FedEx - 609 quid!!!!
How much!!!!! :eek:
Matt Cole
14-01-2011, 16:15
Wooh. Thats insane!!! I think it should be £69!:eek:
yeah, I could have taken a plane and brought it back hand luggage for that, and got a tan at the same time! That or fashioned it out of bloody billet... ain't gonna think about it...
Wooh. Thats insane!!! I think it should be £69!:eek:
freight fuel surcharge was 75 quid...
So moral - watch out!
oh, and that was ex-VAT :mad: 715.72 altogether :chuckup:
You want I should un-tell that guy to shove his offer for the rad up his arse :p
You want I should un-tell that guy to shove his offer for the rad up his arse :p
dunno... I want to say no, but practical reality is a bit different isn't it :(.. kinda self defeating as well coz he still owes me, dunno... feck.. ok see what he say... what a week :disagree:
Forgot about that .Tell him to stump up for taking the piss :mad:
I have some parts here that have become unavailable :coffee:
nah, nets you some cash, take it, don't worry about mixing the two things up; the other one is my problem init. Sell 'im the rad, get it gone, and it can go towards the new valve seat inserts etc... get's us some thing we want and gets shot of some stuff and I'll just go and slash my wrists lol... no more bloody projects...
i l k e r
14-01-2011, 17:20
Ouch!! Just got the bill for the shipping from FedEx - 609 quid!!!!
OMG!!!! I want to cry :cry:
and that's business account wasn't it???
I feel for you mate :sad2:
Woznaldo
28-06-2011, 10:37
Any updates on the C1J development engine?
newbstar*
14-05-2012, 12:27
Has this gone cold????????:agree::disagree:
Markey Mark (BD)
14-05-2012, 16:38
Has this gone cold????????:agree::disagree:
To be honest mate think so, not heard from Martin in very long time no idea on what happened to the test heads of crank from europe.
I've mentioned to Martin i have been ready and willing to supply all bits and time if needs be for this engine as was nice to see what could of been done, never mind :(
newbstar*
15-05-2012, 17:13
Nevermind:sad2::wasntme:
Woznaldo
17-05-2012, 11:52
All a bit of a shame really. This was one of the really interesting threads that would have reaped benefits for everyone in the club. :(
Sorry guys, been a very long time... don't like letting people down. Anyway, not gone dead, I will be back to this, was thinking about it the other day, don't like unfinished stuff... I'm just about done on PRV V6 flow work for now, so I'll swap over a test cylinder in the coming weeks and do some work. Thanks for the patients and faith :ashamed: first time I have been back on here for a long time... thanks to CLee for his patients and faith too, been a bit of bumpy ride here and there. Anyway, work to do, I'll focus on that and will be back to it very soon. Just tested some 24V PRV heads, and I almost don't want to overlay the results over my 12V stuff... eek...
Matt Cole
23-08-2012, 22:14
Awesome matey. Was really interested in this and cried when it went dead! :cry:
Tony Walker
23-08-2012, 22:23
Same her, no pressure just lots of interest :agree:
Same here. :)
More cc's and still C1J look yes please. it's like the ZVH of the C1J world. :agree:
Markey Mark (BD)
24-08-2012, 16:54
:D Good news Martin! :agree:
As we talked about you need any bits i'll supply all you need, may even have a car soon to try the engine in too been very keen to test it at pod
Thanks guys :-) message received load and clear, better get on with it then... :cool:
Nottswoody
24-08-2012, 18:39
:popcorn: just about to rebuild a c1j so very very interested in the head flow mods
Pete@Backyard Racing
24-08-2012, 21:11
Like a few other people i thought this was a c1j rebuild. This Is actually a good thread about developing the c1js volumetric efficiency etc.
I think its common knowledge and most people would agree the restrictions on power from the c1j are mainly from the cylinder head and carburettor.
The most powerful varient of a Renault c1j is the r5 maxi engine. Cross flow head, bigger valves, 1600cc and fuel injection.
So it would be interesting what modifications could be done to improve the power on a c1j with 1600cc with cross flow gordini head with efi, big turbo, etc.....
Maybee even get some gordini heads reproduced by a aluminium casting company on a group buy????;)
Big Steve - Raider
24-08-2012, 21:17
Maybee even get some gordini heads reproduced by a aluminium casting company on a group buy????;)
:agree::agree::agree:
So i've just started an engine rebuild on T-Cup and would certainly be interested in taking part in any group buys or modifications being made in this thread!
Woznaldo
25-08-2012, 13:08
Freakin sweet!!!
Red October
21-01-2013, 00:20
Did anyone try out any modifications in reference to the head work and enlarged exhaust valves?
Red October
21-01-2013, 18:25
Anyone? Reason I ask is that im attempting many of the sub topics in this thread on a trial head. But rather than starting from scratch it would be easier if we could pick up the baton where these guys left off. Im only interested in the big valves and headwork, has anyone else been trying any research and development?????
Helllllllppppppppp :cry:
I'll rattle Faulksie's cage and see if he can help with a few tips ;)
Trouble is he is mega busy with his ' proper job ' and doesn't get much time at all these days .
Red October
21-01-2013, 19:09
I'll rattle Faulksie's cage and see if he can help with a few tips ;)
Trouble is he is mega busy with his ' proper job ' and doesn't get much time at all these days .
Thanks clee I appreciate your help. :)
The more research on flowing the better, I havent got 2-3 heads to chop up and take a risk on unfortunatley.
Big valves have been done and ive got the gear and the right idea to get a local cnc man to solve that problem.
But as far as flow enlargement goes and trimming the internals this thread is the only bible (im sure the pod boys have mastered this but I bet my bottom dollar these are very closley guarded secrets!)
rs250nut
21-01-2013, 20:18
Bend glens ear, his c1j made proper power.
newbstar*
22-01-2013, 13:22
I have one of glens heads in my shed, when used improved spool by 200 rpm earlier! Ie boost level that vehicle was running before.
gttjames
22-01-2013, 13:55
I have one of glens heads in my shed, when used improved spool by 200 rpm earlier! Ie boost level that vehicle was running before.
get the pics up then
The difficult bit with Glenns engine was finding new ways to keep it efficient at such high boost. A lot of that was found in the cylinder head and choice of turbo of course. EFI too, since there would have been no way of accurately fueling 3 bar of boost with a 32dis.
Red October
22-01-2013, 15:13
Took some big steps today to get this off the ground with the machine shop. Valves are ordered (exhaust only) and the head starts getting development porting next week. Spent nearly 2 hours discussing this thead with them! Their background is directed into Mazda motorsport building some insane heads for them.
The head guys also explained that they can fabricate anything and try anything, they even said the valves i selected are crap and they can get some mint ones instead.
Also theyve got some good ideas on exhaust port heat soak too......
Best thing they've said is that theyve got the equipment to produce a exact copy of the full reworked head once its completed.
So if it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread, would there be any takers? Probably cheaper than a CGB OE £500 ebay head;)
Red October
22-01-2013, 15:17
The difficult bit with Glenns engine was finding new ways to keep it efficient at such high boost. A lot of that was found in the cylinder head and choice of turbo of course. EFI too, since there would have been no way of accurately fueling 3 bar of boost with a 32dis.
In your opinion would you say im wasting my time here scoff? i mean am i spending alot of dollar pointlessly for a couple of hundred rpm? I intend to run a billet T28/nodiz ecu/285 cam/ktec tubular.
Cheers.
Mazda - is that Blink motorsport ash ?
With the T28/285/Carb combo the limit seems to be 240hp or so. It's an age old thing. That combination just doesn't seem to support any more than that no matter how you fettle it. But that'll make a very quick GTT with good response! And that might be what your shooting for ? Going bigger than T28 isn't a good idea with the carb because of lag and it's debatable whether it'll help when it does finally spool. With Glenns GT28RS and big turbine it was topping out at something like 270hp no matter how much boost we put through it. Unfortunately a lot of the headwork and turbo change happened at the same time so we can't be sure which had the bigger effect.
newbstar*
22-01-2013, 16:10
get the pics up then
Came off nicks dd autosport efi 5. No machining to exhaust side,squish chambers angled, ported inlet side not massive with shortened guides. Also some modding on ports for injectors. Nick put 30 psi through this to make around 220 to 240bhp give or take! Like scoff says you also have the carb to contend with, throttle body and injectors are your friend. ;)
danielmk323
22-01-2013, 19:09
Took some big steps today to get this off the ground with the machine shop. Valves are ordered (exhaust only) and the head starts getting development porting next week. Spent nearly 2 hours discussing this thead with them! Their background is directed into Mazda motorsport building some insane heads for them.
The head guys also explained that they can fabricate anything and try anything, they even said the valves i selected are crap and they can get some mint ones instead.
Also theyve got some good ideas on exhaust port heat soak too......
Best thing they've said is that theyve got the equipment to produce a exact copy of the full reworked head once its completed.
So if it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread, would there be any takers? Probably cheaper than a CGB OE £500 ebay head;)
Bigger valves some times will cause cracking between the ex and inlet valves can they solve that problem
Dave Reed
22-01-2013, 23:17
First question - what are your goals?
Head work IMO only needs to be mild.. I only ever had port matching on my head until near the end when I fitted over sized exhaust valves.. Inlets were still standard. Seemed to work well, but never done back to back tests like most don't...
Red October
23-01-2013, 00:08
Going to try the exhaust valves first with some flow porting dave.
Goal is to make it as responsive as possible and have a nice curve, when I started reading this thread it asked a lot of questions, hopefully we can clear up some up with what me and people like sid on the FB page discover in the next few months. If its a failure at least we had fun trying new stuff.
Chris no its not them, they're called www.chaseengineservices.co.uk sound like they know their onions.
About the car.......at ND the car ran 170bhp@low boost on a tricked jutto ep motorsport head t25 285 (ktec red cam) and a breadbin cooler. In under 2 weeks we will have a good spec billet t28/285/tubular ktec/nodiz/cossie fmic and alot of replacement parts but retaining the head from jutto/ep..........its going to get mapped and again we will have a set of figures to work from. Hopefully funds permitting we'll have the spare thick head that I bought with the enlarged exhaust valves, roller rockers/a bigger more intricate port and flow than the current jutto head done in the next month or so..........and again we'll have more figures to muse over.
I am a bit of a fake traditionlist when I say the carb way is the best as ive already started messing with my fueling electronically over the advantages of efi. Looks like a lot of people went that way or swapped the engine completely, ill stick to trying to make the carb go that little father. :)
Dave Reed
23-01-2013, 01:01
Check out this thread post #5 that's my chart.
This was with t28,larger ex valves, low comp, cam, raceland mani etc.. It's hard to read mind, but I'd say its a pretty smooth curve/good power band..
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=29288
Red October
23-01-2013, 18:38
Check out this thread post #5 that's my chart.
This was with t28,larger ex valves, low comp, cam, raceland mani etc.. It's hard to read mind, but I'd say its a pretty smooth curve/good power band..
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=29288
Impressive dave. Did or have you ever improved on those or is that as far as you dared?
Dave Reed
23-01-2013, 20:31
Impressive dave. Did or have you ever improved on those or is that as far as you dared?
That was a low boost setting.. I used to turn it up to 2.2 bar plus 100hp of gas is the most I pushed it....... It loved it :D
No rolling road figures unfortunately, used to be gd enough for an 11.2 @ 126mph.. Although that was with 60hp of gas n no big valves just a ported matched head... Was also gd enough to go of the clock ;)
Woznaldo
26-01-2013, 22:58
I think the C1J is one of the least developed engines of it's age. The reason is that 1.4 turbo engines had limited applications in Motorsport. Which to me, means that there is still some potential in a bit of headwork. How much? I have no idea but, that's why this thread is interesting.
I've been in contact with a guy who ports Jag AJ6 and Triumph cylinder heads and has been getting very good results. To quantify how good, he's seen enough flow from their latest evolution of the AJ6 Head to produce over 160 hp/litre!
Will the C1J ever flow 160 hp/litre (based on N/A flow)? Not a hope but, I still think we coould do a bit better.
Red October
19-02-2013, 20:17
Hi all, well sorry for the long gap... finishing other projects, some material searching: valves etc, and longer stroke crank - thanks Ilker your support has been tremendous.. all has added up with a blown laptop to a lay off, but things have been happening, so here goes:
Thanks guys for all the bits, you will see now they are being used.. and abused!
Firstly I cut up a scrap head donated by Mark to see what we have to play with, not much in places. But if there wasn't a challenge what's the point. As you will see it had been cosmetically ported at some stage, I say cosmetic because it’s the bit the untrained eye sees but of little overall effect. Real critical points especially for choke flow speak for themselves in the following. Other areas of concern is I found hairline cracks in the casting around the seat inserts starting at the water jacket casting seams and propagating in... can't be seen normally until the head is leaking...
Lots I have probably forgotten and I will bring more points as we go. Have generally decided to do 2 stages of tune this one, and another project later, reasons will become apparent. Any questions thoughts or plain abuse, just shout in don’t be afraid!
Second set of photos shows some seat inserts I have mashed in, and some straight cuts and a couple of angles. No flow work at this stage, just playing around as looks see and what can go in and what will be a problem. Once I've blended, shaped into throats and ports etc I will again cut these ports on the saw. Down to 3 cylinders at the moment, soon to be 2... those 2 will go into flow experiments.
I have hunted around for valves, and the combination I currently have are some nice 214 SST with inlay, 35.7mm inlet nice shape, or 37mm Rimflow – std is 34mm. Remember, all being equal, the potential increase in flow is proportional to the square of the radius. Not sure how well the Rimflow will work in this head, actually old technology now, but soon to play and find out. Sure like the additional diameter, masking will need to be balanced, but there is some room to the gasket fire ring that can be had. Exhaust side, have selected a nice 32mm diameter valve, and std is 28.9.
Guys,
ended up ordering wrong valves for the valve conversion and went down the engineers for a chat...........
upshot is ive got some 31mm ex sorted and will get the seats to suit.
im unsure if i need single or triple collet valves? and is the diameter still 6mm/ long valve?
ive decided to do the inlets but am having much confusion on selecting my valves and seats following the order of the pics and explinations on this thread by mr faulks. Am i going from 34mm standard to 35.7mm 6mm/ long valve with triples/singles?
And has this size inlet been safely run with the bigger exhaust???
Looking at the job to be done i cant get over how close to the bone all this is in relation to weakening the whole thing.
Tired and semi bored of this now, does anyone posses this knowledge?
Woznaldo
20-02-2013, 08:18
Guys,
ended up ordering wrong valves for the valve conversion and went down the engineers for a chat...........
upshot is ive got some 31mm ex sorted and will get the seats to suit.
im unsure if i need single or triple collet valves? and is the diameter still 6mm/ long valve?
ive decided to do the inlets but am having much confusion on selecting my valves and seats following the order of the pics and explinations on this thread by mr faulks. Am i going from 34mm standard to 35.7mm 6mm/ long valve with triples/singles?
And has this size inlet been safely run with the bigger exhaust???
Looking at the job to be done i cant get over how close to the bone all this is in relation to weakening the whole thing.
Tired and semi bored of this now, does anyone posses this knowledge?
There are a heap of 'tricks' that can be used to accommodate different bits and pieces such as bigger valves. The Valve Guides can be offset bored to gain a bit of space between valves. This trick has been used on Minis in the past.
Red October
20-02-2013, 18:34
There are a heap of 'tricks' that can be used to accommodate different bits and pieces such as bigger valves. The Valve Guides can be offset bored to gain a bit of space between valves. This trick has been used on Minis in the past.
Cheers Woz, I need info from someone who has performed said conversion. It's twisting my melon man.
Red October
21-02-2013, 10:02
Guys,
ended up ordering wrong valves for the valve conversion and went down the engineers for a chat...........
upshot is ive got some 31mm ex sorted and will get the seats to suit.
im unsure if i need single or triple collet valves? and is the diameter still 6mm/ long valve?
ive decided to do the inlets but am having much confusion on selecting my valves and seats following the order of the pics and explinations on this thread by mr faulks. Am i going from 34mm standard to 35.7mm 6mm/ long valve with triples/singles?
And has this size inlet been safely run with the bigger exhaust???
Looking at the job to be done i cant get over how close to the bone all this is in relation to weakening the whole thing.
Tired and semi bored of this now, does anyone posses this knowledge?
Bump :coffee:
Woznaldo
21-02-2013, 11:56
Cheers Woz, I need info from someone who has performed said conversion. It's twisting my melon man.
The obvious person would be David Vizard. There is not a lot he doesn't know about internal combustion engines. The also obvious question is how do we throw a question his way?
He does frequent the PPC forum on rare occasion as he is a part time contributor to the mag.
Get in touch with glen (hi5) im sure he could sort you a ported head with larger valves. His heads always looked pretty trick and done the job.
Red October
21-02-2013, 23:37
Ended up using some austin 31mm long stem 6.98mm double collets and caps.
Inlet could be tricky, to close to the center. I'll put some pics up and do a thread soon. Cheers :beer:
Tony Walker
22-02-2013, 07:37
Looking forward to the results, I think Andrew Cooke made a head flow tester for the 16v head but looked simple enough.
Red October
09-03-2013, 21:09
Hi guys.
Ive had the head back completed and it the dogs. One worry I have is that the stem on the metro turbo valves I used for larger exhaust valves are slightly shorter than the oe ones.
As you look down the top of the head keeping your eyes in line with the valve caps (tops) the new caps sit about 6-8mm lower than the inlet caps (tops). Now I know adjusting the pins on the rocker will get my optimum clearance but what are the chances of the springs binding? Aka valve bounce.
Did the others whove attempted this selected valves with a stem slightly less than oe and co.e across this problem too? Cheers in advance.
Nottswoody
09-03-2013, 21:54
I'd say talk to no1 hi5 Glenn and scoff see what they say
Woznaldo
10-03-2013, 06:03
Hi guys.
Ive had the head back completed and it the dogs. One worry I have is that the stem on the metro turbo valves I used for larger exhaust valves are slightly shorter than the oe ones.
As you look down the top of the head keeping your eyes in line with the valve caps (tops) the new caps sit about 6-8mm lower than the inlet caps (tops). Now I know adjusting the pins on the rocker will get my optimum clearance but what are the chances of the springs binding? Aka valve bounce.
Did the others whove attempted this selected valves with a stem slightly less than oe and co.e across this problem too? Cheers in advance.
Sounds good. Get some pics up so we can check out the handy work. :D
Markey Mark (BD)
10-03-2013, 15:57
The head I had on my engine in the blue car had the valve springs seats machined down alittle to avoid valve spring binding
Red October
10-03-2013, 17:57
The head I had on my engine in the blue car had the valve springs seats machined down alittle to avoid valve spring binding
Off the top of your head can you remember how much meat you chopped out mark?
Markey Mark (BD)
11-03-2013, 19:48
Off the top of your head can you remember how much meat you chopped out mark?
Honestly can't remember mate, was about 7yrs ago now
I'd say talk to no1 hi5 Glenn and scoff see what they say
We didn't use metro valves sorry, so I don't know the answer to this one.
Off the top of your head can you remember how much meat you chopped out mark?
Surely you want to remove however much the difference is between the new stems and original.
Red October
12-03-2013, 19:20
Surely you want to remove however much the difference is between the new stems and original.
Took out 3mm on the bases and a little off the top if anyones interested! Springs coil levels are all the same now.
gttjames
12-03-2013, 23:08
want pictures:)
Woznaldo
06-06-2013, 11:23
Anymore updates with this build?
Red October
22-07-2013, 20:59
Anymore updates with this build?
Hi woz thanks for bringing the sunshine over from prison island ;)
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=32799
Some pictures in there somewhere, the head has now got honda civic goodies a full update soon mate.
Woznaldo
11-12-2015, 12:29
Looks like this thread has well and truly faded away. :(
I've got a Stage 4 GT Tuning Head that's currently off the car. I'll take a few pictures for reference. I'm not saying this is how things should be done, but there are a lot of simple mods that will work on any head.
Markey Mark (BD)
11-12-2015, 17:45
Think so mate
Can't believe how many years ago I started it
Port head
Chamfer the squish areas to reduce likely hood of detonation,
Correct head thickness for compression ratio,
Single groove Metro turbo race valves, 35.6mm inlet and 31mm exhaust with matching titanium retainers
Machine Spring seats to ensure no valve Spring binding
That's a good cylinder for most on here without efi.
Cylinder head water flow mods seem to be just opening up the water ports
Woznaldo
12-12-2015, 06:00
I know CTM did a race head, but it was around 800 quid, so a bit rich for anyone other than a racer looking for that extra bit from the same level of boost. Still, it would be nice to see one theirs in the flesh.
Markey Mark (BD)
12-12-2015, 08:40
I know CTM did a race head, but it was around 800 quid, so a bit rich for anyone other than a racer looking for that extra bit from the same level of boost. Still, it would be nice to see one theirs in the flesh.
I had one of those heads on my old C1J with the VNT
Woznaldo
13-12-2015, 22:41
So, my Stage 4 GT Tuning head hasn't had a great deal done to, but what has been done, can be replicated by the average DIYer. The Inlet ports have been opened up to the gasket max size and the Inlet Manifold matched to the head. The Valve Guides have been cut back so they don't protrude into the inlet tract. The exhaust ports have been cleaned up a bit too.
Here's a couple of pictures. The quality isn't as good as I would have liked, but they illustrate the above.
Inlet port.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa40/woznaldo/The%20Yellow%20Peril/30BE75A8-813F-4FBF-A5A7-272274D9BF89_zpsqylvmkay.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa40/woznaldo/The%20Yellow%20Peril/47AC08BF-FD87-46D8-825F-32A7D6F15D1D_zpsugqdvrvs.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa40/woznaldo/The%20Yellow%20Peril/65A62BF7-1CD0-4946-A42F-342AF55A62AF_zpsblzhgybb.jpg
Exhaust port. You can see that the gasket and Exhaust Manifold are bigger than the port. This helps to prevent reverse flow.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa40/woznaldo/The%20Yellow%20Peril/9F192063-97C9-40DD-84D4-CE3F8AA1C656_zps1pyqf1mf.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa40/woznaldo/The%20Yellow%20Peril/D51AE70A-2948-4375-85C8-00832CAC5E3C_zpsuxw73cgz.jpg
I've got another head that I might have a play around with over the next year, just to see what works and what doesn't.
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