View Full Version : gordini heads??
jonnyshaw49
20-12-2009, 18:41
hi just been looking into the history of renault 5's the first of the renault 5's the gordini and gordini turbo had cross flowed heads which produce better performance for several reasons,bigger valves,lower intake temperatures, better flow of gasses no change in direction. so why did renault change this in the later design the gt turbo when we all could have had more power and would have been better for renault:confused: lol
how much does the head conversion cost rougly what are the parts needed so far i noticed
new water pump built into water system customized
exhaust manifold customized
intake manifold/throttle bodies customized
something done with end of cam that comes out of head?
what else is needed?
does the head bolt pattern match or machining needed??
ecu needed? or can you still use carb setup?
what power would you be able to get? would you keep the gordini t3 or use a t25 or t28 for best power/less lag???
its been discussed quite abit,
as far as im aware, its alot easier to go down the b18ft route as doing the crossflow head conversion is a tad bit costly.
The new Bill J
20-12-2009, 18:51
hi just been looking into the history of renault 5's the first of the renault 5's the gordini and gordini turbo had cross flowed heads which produce better performance for several reasons,bigger valves,lower intake temperatures, better flow of gasses no change in direction. so why did renault change this in the later design the gt turbo when we all could have had more power and would have been better for renault:confused: lol
Did you really laugh out loud after you typed that? I'm struggling to see how it was even remotely funny :scratch:
Did you really laugh out loud after you typed that? I'm struggling to see how it was even remotely funny :scratch:
flol :)
markey b
20-12-2009, 19:00
I didn't say a word this time, or a three letter word... LO.... I mean tee hee.
jonnyshaw49
20-12-2009, 19:09
i searched gordini head in search function couldnt find much where r the threads, id rather have a gordini head than b18 engine wouldnt u, KEEP IT RENAULT!!!!!!!!
i searched gordini head in search function couldnt find much where r the threads, id rather have a gordini head than b18 engine wouldnt u, KEEP IT RENAULT!!!!!!!!
the b18ft IS a renault
markey b
20-12-2009, 19:22
whats wrong with keeping a whole c1j? look here:
http://www.rtoc.org/cgi-bin/leader_board.cgi
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=491
:)
i searched gordini head in search function couldnt find much where r the threads, id rather have a gordini head than b18 engine wouldnt u, KEEP IT RENAULT!!!!!!!!
well, no, because the gordini will cost an arm and a leg to build and will make no more power than the more reliable, quieter, torqier, fuel efficient Renauly 1.7 turbo engine :)
Woznaldo
20-12-2009, 21:04
whats wrong with keeping a whole c1j? look here:
http://www.rtoc.org/cgi-bin/leader_board.cgi
Holy crapoli, where have I been hiding? When did Gianni Santi pull an 11.14?!?
Sorry for the hijack;)
markey b
20-12-2009, 21:10
may this year according to the table :ho:
may this year according to the table :ho:
message must have got there via carrier pigeon
jonnyshaw49
20-12-2009, 23:30
the b18 has less torque standard than the c1j engine doesnt it. b18 has 175nm or torque and c1j with t2 189 nm . isnt the b18 the only renauklt engine they fit in the volvo meant to be the most unreliable engine volvo fitted to there cars. according to alll the old boys at volvo.
i was just thinking of a gordini head because there ment to be more reliable and produce more power as being a cross flow head.
From what ive heard off various people who have used the volvo turbo lump its far from unreliable, Bulletproof compared to the c1j..
I can see where Jonny is comin from, a gordini headed C1J has a couple of advantages over the B18, namely there's no messing around making a different engine fit as easy as it maybe and its still a 1.4 so dead cheap on tax
I'd do a gordini head conversion if I had the time and money
the b18 has less torque standard than the c1j engine doesnt it. b18 has 175nm or torque and c1j with t2 189 nm . isnt the b18 the only renauklt engine they fit in the volvo meant to be the most unreliable engine volvo fitted to there cars. according to alll the old boys at volvo.
i was just thinking of a gordini head because there ment to be more reliable and produce more power as being a cross flow head.
I'm not talking about the meaningless peak torque figures, I'm talking about the general feel of the engine. Have a drive in a volvo powered R5 or some other equally as light car and you'll wonder why the hell you've been playing with that sewing maching of an engine, the C1J.
most unreliable ? I don't know what to make of that statement, maybe they're comparing it with other equally sturdy volvo units ? I don't know, but I hazard that they are not comparing it with the C1J. I've been around both the b18ft and c1j for 10yrs and experimented extensively with both and I assure you that the b18ft wins every time in terms of reliabilty.
But OK, it's got volvo stamped on it's manifold, and I realise that some people like to stick close to OE for some inexplicable reasons, and that's fair enough if it's what you really want, but don't try and convince yourself that it's the best option because it's better. Heck, if you wanted a powerfull, relaiable engine you should turbo charge a 16v motor. Half the work of an xflow conversion and twice the output.
jonnyshaw49
21-12-2009, 08:21
good comment, yeh at volvo they wernt comparing to c1j but comparing with other engines, i have never been in a r5 wth b18 so cant comment on the torque but bet its fun. the b18 is going to be more reliable because its a 1.7 and not a 1.4 so doesnt have to be pushed as hard to get the high power figures. is the turbo on a b18 a td04 same as the seat leons,what is the most power you can get out of a standard block and turbo on the b18 just messing with the fueling,psi and intercooler etc ,not engine mods?i think the gordini conversions look amazing though .
talking about 16v engines a lad i know has supercharged gti engine in a citroen saxo producing 270 bhp at the wheels ,he took it to rockingham and was overtaking clio v6's and the top spec megane,not much would stick with it.
talking about 16v engines a lad i know has supercharged gti engine in a citroen saxo producing 270 bhp at the wheels ,he took it to rockingham and was overtaking clio v6's and the top spec megane,not much would stick with it.
so he was overtaking cars with less power and more weight than him?
Opps forgot the other advantage of the C1J over the B18, when the Aston Db9 pulls up behind you in the petrol staion off the duel carrageway and says "bloody hell, I couldn't pull away from you, what you got in that thing? a 2 litre turbo engine? "
And you respond " nope just a 1.4 8valve pushrod lump" :D
As far as tyhe B18 conversion goes, yeah I'm sure it makes a damn sight better power more reliably than a C1J but if your going to all the hassle of dropping in a different engine to maximum power why limit yourself with an 8valve single OHC engine, why drop a 1.8 or 2.0 litre 16v and bolt a turbo, 300bhp easy.
You'd already be fitting a stand alone ecu so thats taken care of, you'd have to change the fuel pressure reg to suit the B18 so nothing extra there, the mounts are gunna take abit more work and the bottom end would need improvement to take a decent amount of boost, but when you can get 300bhp out a 1.8 16v for roughly 3 - 2.5grand why waste time on a B18?
markey b
21-12-2009, 14:51
Opps forgot the other advantage of the C1J over the B18, when the Aston Db9 pulls up behind you in the petrol staion off the duel carrageway and says "bloody hell, I couldn't pull away from you, what you got in that thing? a 2 litre turbo engine? "
And you respond " nope just a 1.4 8valve pushrod lump" :D
As far as tyhe B18 conversion goes, yeah I'm sure it makes a damn sight better power more reliably than a C1J but if your going to all the hassle of dropping in a different engine to maximum power why limit yourself with an 8valve single OHC engine, why drop a 1.8 or 2.0 litre 16v and bolt a turbo, 300bhp easy.
You'd already be fitting a stand alone ecu so thats taken care of, you'd have to change the fuel pressure reg to suit the B18 so nothing extra there, the mounts are gunna take abit more work and the bottom end would need improvement to take a decent amount of boost, but when you can get 300bhp out a 1.8 16v for roughly 3 - 2.5grand why waste time on a B18?
or a v12 vanquish :smokin:
or a v12 vanquish :smokin:
yeah that too, the look on the guys face was priceless lol
is the turbo on a b18 a td04 same as the seat leons,what is the most power you can get out of a standard block and turbo on the b18 just messing with the fueling,psi and intercooler etc ,not engine mods?i think the gordini conversions look amazing though .
I think the the standard turbo is a t2 that runs 4psi:laugh: in true volvo fashion pretty pointless!
O
As far as tyhe B18 conversion goes, yeah I'm sure it makes a damn sight better power more reliably than a C1J but if your going to all the hassle of dropping in a different engine to maximum power why limit yourself with an 8valve single OHC engine, why drop a 1.8 or 2.0 litre 16v and bolt a turbo, 300bhp easy.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said at the end of my post ;)
You talk about hassle, but compare it with the inordinate amount of hassle that an xflow is, with it's custom manifolds, custom camshaft, management and all the rest. The volvo will drop right in and run with 3 wires. It's just so much of a no-brainer it isn't worth discussing.
...and if the only advantage of keeping the 1.4 is so that you can belittle the pretentious bunch, then you've just confirmed to me that I made the right choice by switching away from the rattly old pushrod smoker when I did :D
(don't take me too seriously guys, just having a laugh ;) )
If he's so adamant on the Gordini head conversion, let him ask Andrew Cooke and Danny Kennedy how much it cost them to do theirs. Then forgetting cost, the amount of time it took them to finish (with lazy periods inbetween).
Matt Cole
21-12-2009, 20:13
If you fancy muchos hassle, grab yourself a 225 lump and away you go!!:D If had gordini bits lying around, then fair enough, but as said, B18 a go.
C1j = Bezzi buddies with mr aa man:laugh:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=121&pictureid=931
If you want serious power I think it's been proven that the c1j won't give it you. So buy another car with a better engine or put a better engine in your car.;)
If I was a bit more flush I know what I would be doing;)
rs250nut
21-12-2009, 21:14
C1j = Bezzi buddies with mr aa man:laugh:
http://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=121&pictureid=931
If you want serious power I think it's been proven that the c1j won't give it you. So buy another car with a better engine or put a better engine in your car.;)
If I was a bit more flush I know what I would be doing;)
Ganni santi 11.14 nuff said. No matter what renault/volvo engine you decide to use your limiting factor is always going to be the gearbox. Unless you can fit another gearbox from another car:)
Rob@Backyardracing
21-12-2009, 21:16
Hmmmm, gordini builds have had some good results but like said take alot of effort to build with other easier options to get good results.. But the Q is what results do you want??? Ive been in only a couple volvo powered 5s and both did shock me to how fast they are but ive never seen great results yet on the strip to show its true power (yet)? 16v is a good way to go and 1.8 valver engines cost pennys and maybe a cheap base to start.....
Scoff stop being so anti C1J ;) we all know its a great little motor for £ vs BHP and repair costs are next to nothing..
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said at the end of my post ;)
You talk about hassle, but compare it with the inordinate amount of hassle that an xflow is, with it's custom manifolds, custom camshaft, management and all the rest. The volvo will drop right in and run with 3 wires. It's just so much of a no-brainer it isn't worth discussing.
...and if the only advantage of keeping the 1.4 is so that you can belittle the pretentious bunch, then you've just confirmed to me that I made the right choice by switching away from the rattly old pushrod smoker when I did :D
(don't take me too seriously guys, just having a laugh ;) )
Ok so its not a massive amount of hassle but it is changing an engine, why do an engine swap when the rewards arn't the best they can be.
Be honest Scoff, did the B18 ever cross your mind before you settled on the F7r?
os, (and rob), no the B18 wasn't an option for me because I knew I would struggle making good power with it. I've already said that we topped out at 230hp, no matter what we did, short of changing the camshaft for something custom.
I was a bit of a cheat, I wanted a lot of power easilly, so the F4R was ofcourse the way to go. I'm really interested to see how Markey mark gets on with his highly tuned B18 drag motor, that might open a few people's eyes :)
BlueFish5Gt
21-12-2009, 21:49
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said at the end of my post ;)
the only advantage of keeping the 1.4 is so that you can belittle the pretentious bunch
That was my original goal when I started with this car.The only think that has been belittled till now is my pride and my bank account.:laugh::cry:
Ganni santi 11.14 nuff said. No matter what renault/volvo engine you decide to use your limiting factor is always going to be the gearbox. Unless you can fit another gearbox from another car:)
Yes, he has undoubtedly made an awful lot of power out of the little old c1j but is it really so amazing? If you look at some of the civic engines ect and what scoff has done with his engine, end of the day there are much better much more modern engines that can make much more power.
Don't get me wrong I love the c1j and I love that fact that a lot of modern "standard" so called hot haches can't live with a tuned c1j.
The main difference there is he's running alot of nitrous, where as other cars trapping at 130mph aren't running any. Although 130mph isn't to be snubbed at.
why do an engine swap when the rewards arn't the best they can be.
You keep asking me irrelivent questions :D I don't know the answer, why would you fit something less than the best ? Maybe because it's cheaper, or more reliable, or any number of other reasons.
The toss up was between the Xflow and Volvo engine, so I made some relivent comments.
markey b
22-12-2009, 00:31
Ganni santi 11.14 nuff said. No matter what renault/volvo engine you decide to use your limiting factor is always going to be the gearbox. Unless you can fit another gearbox from another car:)
cue scoff and his VAG box :agree:
markey b
22-12-2009, 00:32
...and if the only advantage of keeping the 1.4 is so that you can belittle the pretentious bunch, then you've just confirmed to me that I made the right choice by switching away from the rattly old pushrod smoker when I did :D
(don't take me too seriously guys, just having a laugh ;) )
you'd only be in trouble with a select few if you fitted a dump valve :cooter:
You keep asking me irrelivent questions :D I don't know the answer, why would you fit something less than the best ? Maybe because it's cheaper, or more reliable, or any number of other reasons.
The toss up was between the Xflow and Volvo engine, so I made some relivent comments.
Don't worry about it bud, I'm in mischievous mood at the minute causing chaos where ever I go :devil:
steveR5GTT
22-12-2009, 17:52
as the saying goes "there's no replacement for displacement" :D
as the saying goes "there's no replacement for displacement" :D
Tell that to the F1 designers, or the engineers at Yamaha responsible for the R1 and the like :laugh:
The saying should read "There's no replacement for volumetric efficiency" - but that wouldn't be as catchy ;)
Rob@Backyardracing
22-12-2009, 19:38
Tell that to the F1 designers, or the engineers at Yamaha responsible for the R1 and the like :laugh:
The saying should read "There's no replacement for volumetric efficiency" - but that wouldn't be as catchy ;)
something i feel the volvo head lacks....
something i feel the volvo head lacks....
maybe, but I suspect it's better than people generally think. The camshaft is dreadfull though.
Markey Mark (BD)
22-12-2009, 19:42
maybe, but I suspect it's better than people generally think. The camshaft is dreadfull though.
Thankgod i've improved both then (hopefully :scared:). :D
we all know its a great little motor for £ vs BHP and repair costs are next to nothing..
i agree, but to be honest the amount of absolute ballache ive had with the c1j, previous cars included is unreal. it always comes down to a problem i just cannot get to the bottom of:disagree:
i for one can not wait to wash my hands of the c1j.
I know people always like modifying / playing with the c1j, but raise the hands of people who have a nice standard little c1j that just keeps going and going and going ??
O.E FTW :p :ho:
markey b
23-12-2009, 01:40
even i seem to have an everlasting c1j... in the raider :sad2:
DK DEVELOPMENTS
25-12-2009, 13:07
When I was thinking about the choice of engine for my car an engine from another car or another model did not intrest me as I wanted to keep the car all Renault 5.
The Clio engine is by far a cheaper option and has had great results but lets face it a C1J is still top of the drag leader board and In my eye's the car was on road legal tyre's would he not be in the ten's if he was on slick's?
steveR5GTT
25-12-2009, 14:04
When I was thinking about the choice of engine for my car an engine from another car or another model did not intrest me as I wanted to keep the car all Renault 5.
The Clio engine is by far a cheaper option and has had great results but lets face it a C1J is still top of the drag leader board and In my eye's the car was on road legal tyre's would he not be in the ten's if he was on slick's?
Ill place a good wedge down that c1j is not at the top of the leader board by the end of 2010, im not diagreeing with your points and ive seen your build in progress and looks like an amazing build, just think that within the next year we are goin to see alot more engine conversions happening and more and more people steppin into the 11s and even the 10s
:D
Rob@Backyardracing
26-12-2009, 10:36
Really Scoffs car should have been top on the board this year, its more than capable of 10`s just hasnt had much luck with the ratios as such.. Look at the vids, in 3rd its hauling... As for santi car maybe on a full walled drag wheel then a better 60ft would be on the cards as 1.9 60fts isnt fast at all.. and that would put the carb fed c1j in the 10s.... so a dini head and proper manifolds etc would easy see you in 10s.. Look at Andy cooks dini car many years ago, no interest in drag racing, tunned for the hills and makes a 120 trap seem a walk in the park.. But we arguing about two different engines and anyone would expect the modern 16v to take the win.. but to see a c1j BLOCK running well in to the 10s is awsome...
I think 140mph traps is more the aim and better target for a couple of us on here this next year :)
allanr5gtt
26-12-2009, 19:39
Really Scoffs car should have been top on the board this year, its more than capable of 10`s just hasnt had much luck with the ratios as such.. Look at the vids, in 3rd its hauling... As for santi car maybe on a full walled drag wheel then a better 60ft would be on the cards as 1.9 60fts isnt fast at all.. and that would put the carb fed c1j in the 10s.... so a dini head and proper manifolds etc would easy see you in 10s.. Look at Andy cooks dini car many years ago, no interest in drag racing, tunned for the hills and makes a 120 trap seem a walk in the park.. But we arguing about two different engines and anyone would expect the modern 16v to take the win.. but to see a c1j BLOCK running well in to the 10s is awsome...
I think 140mph traps is more the aim and better target for a couple of us on here this next year :)
what do you mean by scoff's car was hauling in 3rd ?
Markey Mark (BD)
26-12-2009, 20:49
what do you mean by scoff's car was hauling in 3rd ?
Meaning he's crossing the line in 3rd gear
Meaning he's crossing the line in 3rd gear
I think rob just ment that it was starting to shift a bit in 3rd gear, because lag, poor ratio's and broken synchro's ment that it wasnt doing much in the other gears.
Markey Mark (BD)
26-12-2009, 21:33
I think rob just ment that it was starting to shift a bit in 3rd gear, because lag, poor ratio's and broken synchro's ment that it wasnt doing much in the other gears.
Ah i see, thats cool mate ;)
hauling = northern term :D
Markey Mark (BD)
26-12-2009, 22:27
hauling = northern term :D
Think our version is 'shifting' for us southener's. :laugh:;)
Woznaldo
26-12-2009, 22:31
This is going a bit off topic but, Scoff what code VAG box are you using and what would be best for drags?
This is going a bit off topic but, Scoff what code VAG box are you using and what would be best for drags?
Well, what I have may not be of much use to anyone because a lot of the choice making is going to depend on your torque curve, tyre height and predicted trap speed. I got 'most' of the ratio's right last year with my seat leon cupra-R gearbox, all apart from 1st gear which ended up being too short. Shifting even at 8200rpm would drop back to 5000rpm and since there was no boost until 5500rpm I had no power for about 2 seconds. also, the synchro's failed pretty quickly, adding to the shifting problem. The new gearbox has a mixture of ratios to suit my engine and new modified synchros, no off-the-shelf gear set was any use to me.
Bare in mind that the cupra-R gearbox probably will not be of much use to others either, it has a 3.389:1 final drive which is pretty tall. I ran this with 25" tyres so that I could do the whole lot in 3 gears. the new final drive is taller still, since I was running out of RPM's in 3rd gear last year. It should be good for over 140mph in 3rd gear :D
Back to the topic.... sorry :)
Tell that to the F1 designers, or the engineers at Yamaha responsible for the R1 and the like :laugh:
The saying should read "There's no replacement for volumetric efficiency" - but that wouldn't be as catchy ;)
Or there's no replacement for thermal efficiency, but that's even less catchy!
Or there's no replacement for thermal efficiency, but that's even less catchy!
Take a look at an F1 engines combustion chambers, there's no way thermal efficiency gets a look in. Why do you think they run them so hot? Volumetric efficiency of itself isn't that amazing either, the clever bit is maintaining it at those revs; Cosworth claiming 120% at 20000rpm!!!!
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