View Full Version : blown engine
SCHWARTZ
09-11-2009, 20:23
my engine decided to dump its oil on the M23 overheat and now there's no compression in number 2&3 cylinders. Basically I want a more reliable car so I either repair the car and sell it or stick a more modern engine in place! Can a C1J lump ever produce 200bhp reliably and how much needs to be spent on it to achieve that? I don't want to sell the car but I cant afford to keep it if it keeps breaking down so a modern engine seems to be the best option only problem is im on a budget and don't want a massively complicated conversion so if anyone knows a reliable engine that can produce 200bhp(pref turbo) that can be swapped over relatively easily on a budget please let me know! I know its asking a lot but there must be someone out there who has converted an engine on the cheap!
my engine decided to dump its oil on the M23 overheat and now there's no compression in number 2&3 cylinders. Basically I want a more reliable car so I either repair the car and sell it or stick a more modern engine in place! Can a C1J lump ever produce 200bhp reliably and how much needs to be spent on it to achieve that? I don't want to sell the car but I cant afford to keep it if it keeps breaking down so a modern engine seems to be the best option only problem is im on a budget and don't want a massively complicated conversion so if anyone knows a reliable engine that can produce 200bhp(pref turbo) that can be swapped over relatively easily on a budget please let me know! I know its asking a lot but there must be someone out there who has converted an engine on the cheap!
As said on the other forum if you want cheap efi and turbo stick the Volvo 1.7 lump in if you have a bit more soare cash do what ashy as done to the f4r or Bigfoot with the f7r engine but these are not cheap.
Why & how did it 'dump all the oil' ?
Nothing wrong with the C1J once tweaked a little, for the money you seem to want to spend you will get fook all decent Efi wise.
Steve
No reason why a c1j can't be reliable at 200hp. If it isn't, blame the engine builder/workmanship.
Saying that, what's so special about 200hp?
rs250nut
09-11-2009, 20:40
Come on Mart everyone wants the magical 200hp these days, 196hp just wont do.:D
No reason why a c1j can't be reliable at 200hp. If it isn't, blame the engine builder/workmanship.
Saying that, what's so special about 200hp?
C'mon Mart, give him some credit, he didn't say 250 or 300bhp :wasntme:
I agree though 200 can be reliable if you know what you're doing... 180 prob about the best for reliability though.. ??
SCHWARTZ
09-11-2009, 21:13
dont really know at the moment why it dumped the oil im suspecting the filter i have run it since it runs terrible but cant see any oil coming out but have only run it at idle and it dumped the oil at 5000rpm so prob needs the pressure to force it through the seal! I was only running 1bar of boost so it prob was only making 150bhp but i was looking at upping the boost to 1.5bar to get somewhere near 200bhp! i didnt build the engine and dont know who did i bought it with a piper cam and i fitted a t2t25 turbo. Maby it will be best to do a whole rebuild and learn my way round a c1j?
old skool turbo power
09-11-2009, 21:37
No reason why a c1j can't be reliable at 200hp. If it isn't, blame the engine builder/workmanship.
Saying that, what's so special about 200hp?
:agree:i think imo your std engine looked after well and treated right even at your standard power is pretty good and the performance is id say still good :cool:haha sayin that it might just be me.:scared:all this lark of oh they over heat ect blar blar blar:coffee:
The 1.7 turbo engine out of a 480 is a cracker. Cheap as fook, developed and over-engineered by porsche. I had one of these, with a few choice mods they are capable of running close to 250 bhp for under a grand. There is a guy on the 480 owners website who can re-map the standard ecu as they are heavily de-tuned. 220 odd is very achievable. I suggest you have a look on the 480 owners site for some info.
1 thing that seemed to make a huge difference on mine was blocking radiant heat being absorbed into the inlet manifold. Some genius decided it was a good idea to put it over the top of the engine and next the exhaust manifold :rolleyes:
dangerous dave
09-11-2009, 23:26
i find the engines are fine, its the badly bolted on bits and old electrics that get you.. get a second hand engine, give it all a once over and drop it in.. :)
The 1.7 turbo engine out of a 480 is a cracker. Cheap as fook, developed and over-engineered by porsche. I had one of these, with a few choice mods they are capable of running close to 250 bhp for under a grand. There is a guy on the 480 owners website who can re-map the standard ecu as they are heavily de-tuned. 220 odd is very achievable. I suggest you have a look on the 480 owners site for some info.
1 thing that seemed to make a huge difference on mine was blocking radiant heat being absorbed into the inlet manifold. Some genius decided it was a good idea to put it over the top of the engine and next the exhaust manifold :rolleyes:
What did Porsche have to do with the B18ft ?
And you mean Rich Pruen, I think. You're right, the ignition is not aggressive once the boost is raised with a standard ECU. A cheaper alternative to Rich's mod:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=167
In the 480 turbo. Volvo bought the renault engine and gave it to Porsche to develop it, then when they got them back they de-tuned the maps on them. Strange but true. The internals on these are heron pistons and rings and other high strength parts. Afraid I can't remember who it was who did the mapping on the site, but I am surprised that more people don't use these engines. They are very helpful guys on that forum.:D
Just a thought?? Would the 2 litre turbo engine from a 21 drop in place?
some of the ppl on the volvo club are helpfull
some dont like u if u have a 480 engine in a 5
duno why tho the less 480's out there the better there ugly lol
SCHWARTZ
10-11-2009, 16:26
whats this volvo forum then? il see if theres an engine on there
whats this volvo forum then? il see if theres an engine on there
Don't foget you will need the engine looms and the ECU's think there is 2 ECU's I may be wrong on that
I will strongly defend the 480. Awesome car. Porcshe tuned engine, lotus tuned handling, lightweight body panels, enough buttons and gadgets to amuse a techy and I like the shape. If we all liked the same thing it would be a boring world. All I have to say is try one before you persecute it.
I might get another one come to think about it:p
The site is the 480ownersclub,(VOLVOCLUB.ORG.) google it. More likely to find one being broken though. Seen a few in my local breakers yard in the last few months.
Pease pottage breakers in crawley west sussex or the bay cos they rust badly round the rear arches and they are not cheap to fix.:dearme:
SOMETHING TO BEAR IN MIND - You want the 1.7 turbo enginefrom a 480 and not the 1.8 turbo out of a 44/460 not as good!!!
Guy on ebay breaking a 480 turbo - 07745033589. Don't know if he has an engine though.:scratch:
SCHWARTZ
10-11-2009, 19:46
dont the 440 have a 1.7 as well tho?
SCHWARTZ
10-11-2009, 20:06
could someone give me a rough idea on the process of the engine conversion? I understand that there will be problems with the ecu's but the mechanical side of things! like what happens with the mounting of the engine does it use the same mounting points or do the volvo mounts need brackets made up? what happens with the driveshafts do the two ends fit together or do new ones need to be made? I just want to know what hind of work im looking at with this conversion so any help is verry appreciated!
I will strongly defend the 480. Awesome car. Porcshe tuned engine, lotus tuned handling, lightweight body panels, enough buttons and gadgets to amuse a techy and I like the shape. If we all liked the same thing it would be a boring world. All I have to say is try one before you persecute it.
I might get another one come to think about it:p
The site is the 480ownersclub,(VOLVOCLUB.ORG.) google it. More likely to find one being broken though. Seen a few in my local breakers yard in the last few months.
Pease pottage breakers in crawley west sussex or the bay cos they rust badly round the rear arches and they are not cheap to fix.:dearme:
SOMETHING TO BEAR IN MIND - You want the 1.7 turbo enginefrom a 480 and not the 1.8 turbo out of a 44/460 not as good!!!
Guy on ebay breaking a 480 turbo - 07745033589. Don't know if he has an engine though.:scratch:
I agree that it's a strong engine, I know because I've been tuning them for years. I've experimented with the OE fuel and igntion modules no end, fitted and mapped standalone for them and anything else you can imagine, but don't get too hung up on the Porsche thing. The performance of the engine is shocking really. The camshaft is horribly restrictive, the cylinder head not much better, and the ignition map is not a lot to shout about.
The engine starts to come alive when you fit the ES N/A camshaft, but still, more than 230hp is very hard to do. Not great news when you think that the lowly C1J can match it quite easilly with an off the shelf camshaft. The real bonus of the Volvo engine is, as you say, its build quality. It is leagues ahead of the C1J, as are most Renault F engines.
soapymech
10-11-2009, 21:42
can much be done to the head scoff:scratch:
can much be done to the head scoff:scratch:
I think there's a lot of room for improvement, but we never needed much more than 230hp so didn't bother looking into it. The camshaft is the real restriction. We had planned to have catcams make a small batch performance cams, but no body was really interested. The Volvo owners were not interested unless it came from Rich Pruen, they didn't realise that there might be other people that know how to tune an engine.
I agree that it's a strong engine, I know because I've been tuning them for years. I've experimented with the OE fuel and igntion modules no end, fitted and mapped standalone for them and anything else you can imagine, but don't get too hung up on the Porsche thing. The performance of the engine is shocking really. The camshaft is horribly restrictive, the cylinder head not much better, and the ignition map is not a lot to shout about.
The engine starts to come alive when you fit the ES N/A camshaft, but still, more than 230hp is very hard to do. Not great news when you think that the lowly C1J can match it quite easilly with an off the shelf camshaft. The real bonus of the Volvo engine is, as you say, its build quality. It is leagues ahead of the C1J, as are most Renault F engines.
True the maps are sh*t, but thats what I was talking about, so much potential for dirt cheap, If volvo hadn't de-tuned the engines maybe they would have sold in larger numbers.
ITS GOT TO BE DONE, good luck with the research, I suspect that if it hasn't yet been done this will be a thread that gathers interest. The one thing I would say about them is I would be happy to thrash one of these engines all day long without fear of it popping, but the 1.4 in my T2 worth 80 -100 times more - I wouldn't:laugh:
I think there's a lot of room for improvement, but we never needed much more than 230hp so didn't bother looking into it. The camshaft is the real restriction. We had planned to have catcams make a small batch performance cams, but no body was really interested. The Volvo owners were not interested unless it came from Rich Pruen, they didn't realise that there might be other people that know how to tune an engine.
Its a common thing with most owners clubs, there are always gurus that are the "last word" in tuning. I love tuning to beyond what people think is possible, sets new boundaries. Just gets more expensive for every 1bhp further.
soapymech
10-11-2009, 23:41
I think there's a lot of room for improvement, but we never needed much more than 230hp so didn't bother looking into it. The camshaft is the real restriction. We had planned to have catcams make a small batch performance cams, but no body was really interested. The Volvo owners were not interested unless it came from Rich Pruen, they didn't realise that there might be other people that know how to tune an engine.would like to know how much bhp this lump would run reliably hmmm back to school:smokin:
I don't know what scoff experienced on these, but most people I knew were exceeding 200+ for under a grand, you have to be prepared to do some work for this though, larger intercooler from a scrapyard (200sx or larger saab2.3t one fits) exhaust releases around 15-20 if going for a straight through. I used a 1 box straight through system that went from 2" to 2 1/4" middle section back down to 2" rear box worked well. The original system double backs on itself. Up the boost and change the map using 99 octane and you're laughing.
Sensible mods should see you achieve 200+ all day every day.:D
:agree:
Our aproach was pretty simple really, something like:
60trim T28 with 0.64ar turbine
Downpipe to match
Front mounted intercooler
Standard fuel ECU
De-restricted EZK (ignition) module
Volvo B23ft green injectors
MAF bypass pipe to compensate for injector upgrade
ES camshaft from 2.0 n/a
Standard internals, gaskets, etc etc
At 21psi that would make about 220hp usually. A bit more boost would see 230hp, but the engine didn't respond to much more than 23psi, other than making more peak torque.
The really annoying thing I remember was the rev limit at 6100rpm! Did any of the Volvo guys find a way of removing that ? Blocky from this forum tried some Saab Bosch LH ROM software and read in the fuel ECU rom. Adjustment of the map was possible but there was no rev limit set at the address used by the Saabs (with the same ECU). I think we concluded the limit must be in the EZK but didn't investigate much further, we installed standalone instead on Chris's car.
soapymech
11-11-2009, 00:07
I don't know what scoff experienced on these, but most people I knew were exceeding 200+ for under a grand, you have to be prepared to do some work for this though, larger intercooler from a scrapyard (200sx or larger saab2.3t one fits) exhaust releases around 15-20 if going for a straight through. I used a 1 box straight through system that went from 2" to 2 1/4" middle section back down to 2" rear box worked well. The original system double backs on itself. Up the boost and change the map using 99 octane and you're laughing.
Sensible mods should see you achieve 200+ all day every day.:Dwhat about maxing one to the point of all restriction being eliminated has anyone you know of gone this far maybe even using only the bottom end:coffee:
:agree:
Our aproach was pretty simple really, something like:
60trim T28 with 0.64ar turbine
Downpipe to match
Front mounted intercooler
Standard fuel ECU
De-restricted EZK (ignition) module
Volvo B23ft green injectors
MAF bypass pipe to compensate for injector upgrade
ES camshaft from 2.0 n/a
Standard internals, gaskets, etc etc
At 21psi that would make about 220hp usually. A bit more boost would see 230hp, but the engine didn't respond to much more than 23psi, other than making more peak torque.
I can see a sudden rise in price and interest in these on the horizon:laugh: after this thread
what about maxing one to the point of all restriction being eliminated has anyone you know of gone this far maybe even using only the bottom end:coffee:
Essentially the bottom end is just a common renault F block, the same as my 16v etc.
People generally arn't going to invest 1000's of ££ on flow bench time improving the cylinder head, or spend £500 on a one off camshaft, springs, and so on. It's a 20yr old 8v engine! It's apeal is it's cheapness, its robustness and ease of fitment into an R5. 230hp is more than enough for a light fwd road car! It'll do it reliably too.
To mention no names (most of you will know who I mean :D ) - I've seen the same 100k mile old Volvo bottom end bouncing off the limiter in 5th gear, flat out at 20++ psi of boost, for minutes on end, a number of times. There is a video somewhere on the web of the afore mentioned owner at Bruntingthorpe proving ground bouncing off the limiter in 5th gear whilst eating a packet of crips and smoking a fag :laugh:
Not sure anyone look too deep into the rev limit, standalone has to be the way forward. Would make alternative vehicle installation easier.
8 valves are the way forward!!!!!
16valves suck, the lack of torque from a 16valve doesn't offer the same feel.
I had a 309 gti goodwood with a gti6 lump - revving to 8200 can be tiresome!
phase i 16 v turbo
11-11-2009, 09:25
I have just brought on of these Volvo 480 Turbos from an old chap up the road. I am the second owner and it has only done 37k with all receipts, MOTs. Tax disks and paper. He has used it for years to go to the shops and back. I asked him years ago if he wanted to sell it. I wanted to do the conversion back then. He said no, but would keep me in mind. Few weeks back got a knock on the door and I am now the proud owner of a White 37k Volvo 480.
hydrotec78
11-11-2009, 12:29
check out marky marks (bd) profile pics to see what he is doing with this lump, be warned you will get the " I WANTS" :laugh:
Essentially the bottom end is just a common renault F block, the same as my 16v etc.
People generally arn't going to invest 1000's of ££ on flow bench time improving the cylinder head, or spend £500 on a one off camshaft, springs, and so on. It's a 20yr old 8v engine! It's apeal is it's cheapness, its robustness and ease of fitment into an R5. 230hp is more than enough for a light fwd road car! It'll do it reliably too.
To mention no names (most of you will know who I mean :D ) - I've seen the same 100k mile old Volvo bottom end bouncing off the limiter in 5th gear, flat out at 20++ psi of boost, for minutes on end, a number of times. There is a video somewhere on the web of the afore mentioned owner at Bruntingthorpe proving ground bouncing off the limiter in 5th gear whilst eating a packet of crips and smoking a fag :laugh:
I wonder who that could be!:smokin: lol If anyone can testament the reliability of the engine in question that man can!:wasntme: Maybe the fact that the engine is well within it's tuning possabilitys is a contributing factor to it's sturdyness.
From my experiance of driving one the engine is a much "nicer" drive than a c1j too, the efi makes the whole thing just seem smoother both on and off boost.
i love ythe 480 engine altho mine still doesnt work.
i was going to experiment with a lower compresion head from an n/a modle but after speaking to chris (haz)
i decided not to as the compression ratio is low any way
also the power upgrade u get from 1 of scoff ecu's is fantastic for its money :agree:
fittment is easy in a r5 gtx engine mout orriginal shafts and its in
soapymech
11-11-2009, 15:05
check out marky marks (bd) profile pics to see what he is doing with this lump, be warned you will get the " I WANTS" :laugh:realy cant wait to see this one go :eek:think it just needs the managment now:devil:
Rob@Backyardracing
11-11-2009, 19:08
8 valves are the way forward!!!!!
16valves suck, the lack of torque from a 16valve doesn't offer the same feel.
I had a 309 gti goodwood with a gti6 lump - revving to 8200 can be tiresome!
:scratch:
Adey aka Ewok
11-11-2009, 19:30
they wernt crisps they were mini chedders;) ill try and dig out the old video sumtime, was an experience to say the least lol
ha ha, top engines, easy to work on and easy to tune for little cash. forgot bout that vid adey, and that was on a slightly smaller turbo with only 15psi ;)
not got loads of pics or vids, but i do know of one (poss ma pb time @ pod) on youtube ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXt8V_uLTjk
8 valves are the way forward!!!!!
16valves suck, the lack of torque from a 16valve doesn't offer the same feel.
I had a 309 gti goodwood with a gti6 lump - revving to 8200 can be tiresome!
? confused on this statement, since when does the gti6 lack torque?
Markey Mark (BD)
04-12-2009, 15:47
realy cant wait to see this one go :eek:think it just needs the managment now:devil:
Yep, just ECU and wiring really left to do on the engine side mate.
chop chop, hope you'll be smashin ma 1/4mile times with that set-up, but at least wait til i've sold ma car so i'm not tempted to put a cam in and fettle it some more lol.
Markey Mark (BD)
04-12-2009, 17:46
chop chop, hope you'll be smashin ma 1/4mile times with that set-up, but at least wait til i've sold ma car so i'm not tempted to put a cam in and fettle it some more lol.
Lol! I'll try hold out till you sold it mate, although once its done it'll be done Pod straight away.
Yeah i do hope it'll be posting some good times, got to at least smash my old time with the C1J:)
:Di got a perfect bb tuning engine in my garage if needed
ha ha, top engines, easy to work on and easy to tune for little cash. forgot bout that vid adey, and that was on a slightly smaller turbo with only 15psi ;)
not got loads of pics or vids, but i do know of one (poss ma pb time @ pod) on youtube ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXt8V_uLTjk
I need to pull my finger out & get back to pod...
steveR5GTT
04-12-2009, 19:18
I need to pull my finger out & get back to pod...
you and me both mate, im hopin to be there end of jan or end of feb depending of weather of course lol
Yep, just ECU and wiring really left to do on the engine side mate.
what mods have u done mate besides inlet an exhaust manifolds.
any thing internal
Markey Mark (BD)
10-12-2009, 16:44
what mods have u done mate besides inlet an exhaust manifolds.
any thing internal
Bottom end is fairly standard apart from a balanced crank and lightened and slotted flywheel.
The head has recieved most of the work, full port, larger valves (inlet and exhaust), stronger valve springs and a custom cam. There's alot more bits done to the lump but thats the main bits.
the valve work sounds expencive,
my porting work is being done next week, any thing to look out for as in where not to go to mad .if u dont mind me asking
Bottom end is fairly standard apart from a balanced crank and lightened and slotted flywheel.
The head has recieved most of the work, full port, larger valves (inlet and exhaust), stronger valve springs and a custom cam. There's alot more bits done to the lump but thats the main bits.
just had a look at your project m8, looks great, don't know if it was your intention but i love the way you've hidden the volvo'ness off it, excellent job :)
Markey Mark (BD)
10-12-2009, 19:14
just had a look at your project m8, looks great, don't know if it was your intention but i love the way you've hidden the volvo'ness off it, excellent job :)
Cheers mate, no didn't intend to change the look just doing whats needed really, purpose over looks :D
Although its still got to look nice under there:laugh:
Big Supes
10-12-2009, 22:00
If I was planning on a engine transplant I'd fit a CA18DET. :cool:
Markey Mark (BD)
10-12-2009, 22:06
If I was planning on a engine transplant I'd fit a CA18DET. :cool:
Is that the 1.8 lump from an Nissan 2OOSX S13?
Big Supes
10-12-2009, 22:12
Yeah... it's a great little engine, well capable of producing a reliable 320bhp on standard internals.
:)
Markey Mark (BD)
10-12-2009, 22:19
Yeah not a bad engine, just wonder about it squeezing in the 5 engine bay with whatever box you would use, JB gearbox would be right out the window with one of those.
Would be an interesting project if someone wanted to give it ago.
Big Supes
10-12-2009, 22:22
Yeah, tbh, I haven't even given it any thought until I read the thread. It's surprisingly not very big... off the top of my head I would bet it would fit.
Ideally it would be nice to fit it the 'correct' way around and have it RWD. :D
By way of a teaser, for those that like to see odd-ball engine's fitted into R5's, ala the 20vt, 2010 should not dissapoint :D ;)
Markey Mark (BD)
10-12-2009, 22:50
By way of a teaser, for those that like to see odd-ball engine's fitted into R5's, ala the 20vt, 2010 should not dissapoint :D ;)
Something up your sleve mate:D
I like it Scoff, Im eager to know more now ! :D
Big Supes
11-12-2009, 07:55
NOICE, Scoff. Look forward to hearing/seeing more. :)
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